Help me with an argument/discussion re: teaching Singapore math :)

[pgr]

What do you think of this? :tongue_smilie:

 

If one has difficulty following Liping Ma's book, one will likely have difficulty teaching SM. Likewise, non mathy parents who just don't feel they "get" math will likely have trouble following SM (even with HIGs).

[Crimson Wife]

Well, I personally had no trouble following along with Liping Ma, but do sometimes find it difficult to teach certain chapters in Singapore even with the HIG. Thank goodness for Maria Miller's explanations in MM and her videos!

 

A non-mathy mom can be successful teaching Singapore, but she may need to look outside the program for help in doing so.

[pgr]

Thank you!

[Aquinas Academy]

I have never read Liping Ma's book. I would not consider myself mathy and I didn't have any trouble with SM (used Earlybird through 5B).

:iagree:I've taught all of SM primary math and DD 13 is now working on NEM 2.

[pgr]

Well now I'm curious...

 

The brief version is -

 

I'm starting to panic, and wonder if my doctorate degree was had from a Cracker Jacks box...

 

I should probably actually read Ma's book first :blushing:

[kalanamak]

What do you think of this? :tongue_smilie:

 

If one has difficulty following Liping Ma's book, one will likely have difficulty teaching SM. Likewise, non mathy parents who just don't feel they "get" math will likely have trouble following SM (even with HIGs).

 

The book or the math in the book? Reading her book is nothing like math, although there is math in it. Do they mean "if you didn't come out of it seeing why PUFM is important"?

 

I think "non-mathy" parents need SM more than most, and that they should start at the beginning, alone if necessary.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm starting to panic, and wonder if my doctorate degree was had from a Cracker Jacks box...

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

I'm sure you're perfectly bright, just one more victim of mediocre math education in the U.S. The good news is that it's not too late to re-learn arithmetic the way you should've learned it all along! :)

 

Maria Miller and Salman Khan are your friends!

[Aubrey]

Define "mathy." Dh would probably say I am, but no one else would. I'm a girl w/ a bunch of kids & a lit degree--if I'm mathy, I'm wearing a pretty good disguise, kwim? (I know, stereotypes stink, but there ya go.)

 

I was a year ahead in school & in advanced math classes once they were available, 6th g or so & on, BUT I always struggled to keep up, barely making Cs. So I *felt* like I wasn't mathy. But the regular level math classes made me want to poke my eyes out, even being a year ahead.

 

In college, I made straight As in Algebra, w/out going to class except for tests. I took Trig & Calc for fun. BUT I only made a C in Trig (partly because I couldn't afford the book soon enough) & a D in Calc (because the prof felt bad to give me an F).

 

SM: It's the first time I've encountered math being done the way *I* do it in my head, the way that comes naturally to me. It's like something that takes this dormant seed that was inside me & finally lets it bloom. W/ SM, I *look* mathy or at least feel it.

 

Maybe it's good for everybody, I don't know. It's good for *me.* :D I've started letting ds stay up late at night to do math (he is mathy, but he'd do anything to stay up late) because it entertains me. Like a sudoku book. :lol:

[acurtis75]

This is a little off topic but I was reading a book the other day and there was a section on work ethic. The author quoted a study comparing American math students and Korean math students. I can't remember what book it was or find the reference for the specific study details right now but the study of course indicated that the Korean students significantly out-performed the american students that were the same age. (middle school I think...) What was interesting to me was that they asked the same students whether or not they were good in math and the Americans said yes while the Koreans said no. The author theorized that we are better teachers of self-esteem than we are math and work ethic.

[Nart]

This is a little off topic but I was reading a book the other day and there was a section on work ethic. The author quoted a study comparing American math students and Korean math students. I can't remember what book it was or find the reference for the specific study details right now but the study of course indicated that the Korean students significantly out-performed the american students that were the same age. (middle school I think...) What was interesting to me was that they asked the same students whether or not they were good in math and the Americans said yes while the Koreans said no. The author theorized that we are better teachers of self-esteem than we are math and work ethic.

 

Following up on this slightly off-topic comment about work ethic. A researcher who was studying performance on an international math and science exam (TIMMS) noticed that a big difference between American students and students from Asia. When students take the TIMMS, they also have to fill out a really long, boring background questionnaire that has nothing to do with math and science, it asks about your school, family, etc. If you compare the countries whose students who completed the most questionnaire questions with the math rankings on the TIMMS, they are exactly the same. Countries whose students are willing to concentrate and sit still long enough and focus on answering every single question in an endless questionnaire are the same countries whose students do the best job of solving math problems.

 

So going back to the original question, I think you just have to put in the time to read and follow the HIG AND be willing to have your child complete math problems different ways instead of just finding the easiest one way to solve the problem (ex. find three ways to subtract one number from another - count up, regroup, make groups of 10's).

[jennynd]

What was interesting to me was that they asked the same students whether or not they were good in math and the Americans said yes while the Koreans said no. The author theorized that we are better teachers of self-esteem than we are math and work ethic.

 

It is kinda interesting. I remember reading a story that a Taiwan funk out student became a genius in UK in math, and I also remember that when I was in high school, a friend of mine didn't make to get in a decent high school and the parents send him to US and he ended up went to Stanford with engineering degree. They will be consider failure in Taiwan but yet they are successful in US...

 

Culture, work ethic? or maybe the Asian country (Taiwan) actually fail to help the smart kid to be successful??

[pgr]

Wow - lots of food for thought here, thank you! ( And I'm off to check out Kahn as well. )

[Farrar]

Are there really a significant number of people who found Ma's book hard to follow? I find that... Well, I find that as hard to understand as I found most of the American teachers in that book.

[Spy Car]

What do you think of this? :tongue_smilie:

 

If one has difficulty following Liping Ma's book, one will likely have difficulty teaching SM. Likewise, non mathy parents who just don't feel they "get" math will likely have trouble following SM (even with HIGs).

 

I think if you do it you will not only give your child the opportunity to use a world-class math program, but you will also have the opportunity to have a math re-education. You may find you are more mathy than you think.

 

If you start at the beginning there is nothing that isn't easily learnable and easily teachable about this method. Don't be intimidated, Singapore math builds up skills (including those of active parents) very incrementally. And you will just get stronger and stronger.

 

Go for it!

 

Bill

Edited September 25, 2011 by Spy Car

[WishboneDawn]

The brief version is -

 

I'm starting to panic, and wonder if my doctorate degree was had from a Cracker Jacks box...

 

I should probably actually read Ma's book first :blushing:

 

I'm a high school grad (that's it), never got my grade 12 math credit and always thought I was non-mathy.

 

I'm now into Singapore DM and still loving it and math.

[GingerPoppy]

Are there really a significant number of people who found Ma's book hard to follow? I find that... Well, I find that as hard to understand as I found most of the American teachers in that book.

 

Oh yes, :iagree:wholeheartedly.

[WishboneDawn]

Are there really a significant number of people who found Ma's book hard to follow? I find that... Well, I find that as hard to understand as I found most of the American teachers in that book.

 

I'm starting to think my crappy math education was actually a boon. I went into both Singapore PM and Liping Ma's book convinced I knew nothing and ready to soak it all in. It was all wonderful and all made sense.

[8filltheheart]

What do you think of this? :tongue_smilie:

 

If one has difficulty following Liping Ma's book, one will likely have difficulty teaching SM. Likewise, non mathy parents who just don't feel they "get" math will likely have trouble following SM (even with HIGs).

 

If you are comfortable with teaching math and it is simply a matter of SM's approach not meshing w/how you teach, don't feel like you have to be tied to SM to give your kids a solid math education. While that is the predominant mantra on this forum, it simply is not an absolute.

 

Teaching and engaging your kids in mathematical discussions is probably far more important than which math text you place in front of them.

 

FWIW, I really don't like teaching math the way SM does. I really would have gone crazy if I had had to spend the last 18 yrs teaching math that way. However, I really do love teaching math (well, geometry down anyway) From our experience, my kids have not been damaged in their conceptual understanding of math by not using SM. (regardless of dire predictions otherwise. ;))

 

If you are more comfortable teaching your kids differently, then you really need to find what makes you the best math teacher you can be and not submit to a false dichotomy. However, if the alternative is simply handing an elementary child a math book and leaving them alone, go back to SM if it makes you engage. ;)

 

(fwiw, strategy games are a really great way to help build mental manipulations and logic.)

[shinyhappypeople]

Are there really a significant number of people who found Ma's book hard to follow? I find that... Well, I find that as hard to understand as I found most of the American teachers in that book.

 

She's a math teacher not a writer. I read the first two chapters I think and gave up. I was capable of understanding what she was talking about but the reading was pure drudgery. :tongue_smilie:

[Aubrey]

If you are comfortable with teaching math and it is simply a matter of SM's approach not meshing w/how you teach, don't feel like you have to be tied to SM to give your kids a solid math education. While that is the predominant mantra on this forum, it simply is not an absolute.

 

I know there's definitely a strong cheerleading section for SM here, but I've never seen it as the predominant mantra, unless you're only talking about Bill. ;) As w/ everything else, there seem to be two very vocal groups: SM on the one side...well, ok, that's my camp, so I'm not sure what the other guys use, but I know who they are. :lol:

 

The SM/MCT group has always seemed the minority to me. I'd guess the other guys use Math Mammoth, maybe? Saxon? And things that start w/ R & S, like Rod & Staff & Right Start.

 

I think we ea think our side is better FOR US, & maybe we even like very much who we are, lol, but the "mantra" is maybe just "here's why SM works for us." As uncomfortable as I'd imagine SM is for one personality, more traditional curricula is equally uncomfortable for another kind of personality. I'd say most texts are written for the former, so when the latter finds something that actually fits as well as SM does, they get excited. But for the most part, I'd say they know it won't fit everybody.

 

It's more like if my one-legged, club-footed grandmother liked to wear custom-fitted spandex, & I'd spent all my time for years tweaking what I could find, paying ridiculously high prices, etc, to keep her comfortably dressed, & then one day, I walk into WM & find one-legged spandex pants that are custom-fitted for people w/ a club foot. The convenience! I'd think I'd died & gone to heaven, & I'd have a hard time being quiet about it, & I'd be thrilled to share my find w/ the one other person who might have need of such clothing.

 

But if other people started saying the pants weren't for everyone, that people didn't need to feel guilty for not buying them, well...I'd probably look at those people like they had four heads. OF COURSE these pants aren't for everybody. I can't imagine a TON of other people really need them. Maybe they'd work as a sweater for your pet snake, but otherwise? You don't *have* to like them/buy them just because *I* do!

 

And please--don't try to buy two pair & make them work for your two-legged grandmother, either, because she probably won't thank you. ;)

[Spy Car]

I know there's definitely a strong cheerleading section for SM here, but I've never seen it as the predominant mantra, unless you're only talking about Bill. ;)

 

You mean the Bill who favors Miquon over the pre-K/K Singapore materials?

 

The Bill who has encouraged people to check out the interesting Lesson Plans and puzzle-like problems in MEP?

 

The Bill who has said he feels the emphasis on early place-value understanding in RightStart is spot-on (and has appropriated much of their method) because it wasn't in the early Singapore materials? And who loves the RS games?

 

The Bill who loves Ed Zaccaro's Primary Challenge Math for adding thought provoking topics?

 

The Bill who has encouraged parents to check out MM, MiF, RS, MEP, Miquon, CSMP, Japanese Math, CSMP, and others?

 

The Bill who is chomping at the bit waiting for the Beast Academy release from Art of Problem Solving?

 

Singapore is a very solid (but not perfect) math program. It is not the only solid math program, and (as I have said on many occasions) we are fortunate to have so many good options to chose from to enrich our children's educations.

 

Those parents who don't need math programs to teach math don't need them. Those of us who do need them may need more than one (or may not).

 

Bill

[Aubrey]

You mean the Bill who favors Miquon over the pre-K/K Singapore materials?

 

The Bill who has encouraged people to check out the interesting Lesson Plans and puzzle-like problems in MEP?

 

The Bill who has said he feels the emphasis on early place-value understanding in RightStart is spot-on (and has appropriated much of their method) because it wasn't in the early Singapore materials? And who loves the RS games?

 

The Bill who loves Ed Zaccaro's Primary Challenge Math for adding thought provoking topics?

 

The Bill who has encouraged parents to check out MM, MiF, RS, MEP, Miquon, CSMP, Japanese Math, CSMP, and others?

 

The Bill who is chomping at the bit waiting for the Beast Academy release from Art of Problem Solving?

 

Singapore is a very solid (but not perfect) math program. It is not the only solid math program, and (as I have said on many occasions) we are fortunate to have so many good options to chose from to enrich our children's educations.

 

Those parents who don't need math programs to teach math don't need them. Those of us who do need them may need more than one (or may not).

 

Bill

 

I only mean the Bill who is passionate about liking whatever he likes. :D :grouphug:

[Spy Car]

I only mean the Bill who is passionate about liking whatever he likes. :D :grouphug:

 

I know that guy! :D

 

Bill

[kalanamak]

She's a math teacher not a writer. I read the first two chapters I think and gave up. I was capable of understanding what she was talking about but the reading was pure drudgery. :tongue_smilie:

 

It was more like a thesis than a "book". It was a "page turner" for me. I was glued to it. Especially the parts where she gave a problem and quoted various teacher's approach. The whole US vs China thing had nothing to do with me. I'm not in the educational standards field :D. But, the insight into how various teachers thought was very interesting to me.

[8filltheheart]

I know there's definitely a strong cheerleading section for SM here, but I've never seen it as the predominant mantra, unless you're only talking about Bill. ;) As w/ everything else, there seem to be two very vocal groups: SM on the one side...well, ok, that's my camp, so I'm not sure what the other guys use, but I know who they are. :lol:

 

The SM/MCT group has always seemed the minority to me. I'd guess the other guys use Math Mammoth, maybe? Saxon? And things that start w/ R & S, like Rod & Staff & Right Start.

 

I think we ea think our side is better FOR US, & maybe we even like very much who we are, lol, but the "mantra" is maybe just "here's why SM works for us." As uncomfortable as I'd imagine SM is for one personality, more traditional curricula is equally uncomfortable for another kind of personality. I'd say most texts are written for the former, so when the latter finds something that actually fits as well as SM does, they get excited. But for the most part, I'd say they know it won't fit everybody.

 

It's more like if my one-legged, club-footed grandmother liked to wear custom-fitted spandex, & I'd spent all my time for years tweaking what I could find, paying ridiculously high prices, etc, to keep her comfortably dressed, & then one day, I walk into WM & find one-legged spandex pants that are custom-fitted for people w/ a club foot. The convenience! I'd think I'd died & gone to heaven, & I'd have a hard time being quiet about it, & I'd be thrilled to share my find w/ the one other person who might have need of such clothing.

 

But if other people started saying the pants weren't for everyone, that people didn't need to feel guilty for not buying them, well...I'd probably look at those people like they had four heads. OF COURSE these pants aren't for everybody. I can't imagine a TON of other people really need them. Maybe they'd work as a sweater for your pet snake, but otherwise? You don't *have* to like them/buy them just because *I* do!

 

And please--don't try to buy two pair & make them work for your two-legged grandmother, either, because she probably won't thank you.

Reply With Quote

 

First, no, I was not referring to Bill. It was in reference to the conceptual math mantras that are prevalent on this forum that often leave the impression that only curricula x, y, and z teach conceptual math and the rest simply leave students regurgitating math facts which require no actual understanding of what they are doing.

 

As far as the rest of your post....:confused: (not even sure why MCT is brought into the discussion. Does SM go along with the MCT b/c I personally see no relationship in the teaching styles even if the subject matter were the same. I naturally teach in a manner similar to MCT and definitely do not naturally teach in a manner similar to bar diagrams. ETA: and I also know that while teaching similarly to MCT does help students become solid writers w/great vocabularies that there are many equally valid approaches that will get students to the exact same place and simply b/c MCT doesn't fit a person's teaching style does not mean that they can't provide their child the same outcome.)

 

I also wasn't posting in any way as an us vs. them. I am definitely not on a side. I think SM is a great math program and am not certainly not intending to suggest otherwise. My only pt was for the OP and was simply that if SM methodology did not match her teaching style, something else might fit her style better and if that is the case, she doesn't need to feel like she will ruin her children's math education if SM isn't used.

 

Beyond than that....I didn't "mean" anything.

Edited September 25, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[kalanamak]

If you are comfortable with teaching math and it is simply a matter of SM's approach not meshing w/how you teach, don't feel like you have to be tied to SM to give your kids a solid math education. While that is the predominant mantra on this forum,

)

 

 

I think the polls present a great plurality here, with no majority for any math curriculum.

 

I also think SM is posted about more often because 1) it is novel for us USians and we may have more questions, and 2) some of us felt so much like we'd come "home" to math when we "first looked into Chapman's Homer", I mean into SM, that we have a hard time not bubbling about it.

I know I feel that way.

[Aubrey]

I think the polls present a great plurality here, with no majority for any math curriculum.

 

I also think SM is posted about more often because 1) it is novel for us USians and we may have more questions, and 2) some of us felt so much like we'd come "home" to math when we "first looked into Chapman's Homer", I mean into SM, that we have a hard time not bubbling about it.

I know I feel that way.

 

You have a one-legged, club-footed grandma! :hurray:

[Spock]

It is kinda interesting. I remember reading a story that a Taiwan funk out student became a genius in UK in math, and I also remember that when I was in high school, a friend of mine didn't make to get in a decent high school and the parents send him to US and he ended up went to Stanford with engineering degree. They will be consider failure in Taiwan but yet they are successful in US...

 

Culture, work ethic? or maybe the Asian country (Taiwan) actually fail to help the smart kid to be successful??

 

My college roommate was from Taiwan, and came to the US for the last years of high school and all of college. In Taiwan she barely passed math. In the US, her high school math teacher thought she was a tremendous student, and suggested she major in math. (She said the level of the work here was much lower than in Taiwan.)

[crazyforlatin]

My college roommate was from Taiwan, and came to the US for the last years of high school and all of college. In Taiwan she barely passed math. In the US, her high school math teacher thought she was a tremendous student, and suggested she major in math. (She said the level of the work here was much lower than in Taiwan.)

 

My dad is from Taiwan and was disappointed at what was taught to my brother when he took AP Calculus in high school (which happens to be extremely selective). Even when my brother went to one of the top U.S. colleges, my dad didn't think the math was challenging enough - more at the level for high school students in Taiwan. When he entered into the top U.S. graduate program in a hard science, most of the entering class seemed to be foreigners and commented that they couldn't believe an American got into the program.

[pgr]

Once again, wow. I appreciated the support, reassurance, and thought encouraging commentary!

 

I have only started to read Ma's book, but I am having trouble getting into a groove with the writing, as one person has commented. Languages and science are my strong points, math is not. I trust that I will be able to get through the book and learn from it - I bet trying to read it sometime before 11pm would help, or some time other than while trying to get a squirmy infant down for a nap in a rocker...:glare:

 

Incidentally, I hope it didn't sound like I thought a degree of some sort would be necessary to learn to teach SM, I only wondered aloud at some point how I possibly was able to get through presumably more complex texts than Ma's book....:tongue_smilie:

 

As far as my own lack of mathiness, I think that my education may be partly the culprit, but also that I just don't have that "chip". My Mom has a terrible sense of direction - north is whichever way she's facing, she says. My DH isn't able to visualize things in 3D - say, imagine what a home's layout would be from looking at a floor plan. My Achilles heel is arithmetic. Of course, I'm also math phobic...

 

I've got goals to work toward ;)

[WishboneDawn]

Once again, wow. I appreciated the support, reassurance, and thought encouraging commentary!

 

I have only started to read Ma's book, but I am having trouble getting into a groove with the writing, as one person has commented. Languages and science are my strong points, math is not. I trust that I will be able to get through the book and learn from it - I bet trying to read it sometime before 11pm would help, or some time other than while trying to get a squirmy infant down for a nap in a rocker...:glare:

 

Incidentally, I hope it didn't sound like I thought a degree of some sort would be necessary to learn to teach SM, I only wondered aloud at some point how I possibly was able to get through presumably more complex texts than Ma's book....:tongue_smilie:

 

As far as my own lack of mathiness, I think that my education may be partly the culprit, but also that I just don't have that "chip". My Mom has a terrible sense of direction - north is whichever way she's facing, she says. My DH isn't able to visualize things in 3D - say, imagine what a home's layout would be from looking at a floor plan. My Achilles heel is arithmetic. Of course, I'm also math phobic...

 

I've got goals to work toward ;)

 

Not buying it. Math is essentially a language with it's own vocabulary and grammar. It's also so basic to being human and how we perceive that world around us and so wrapped up in every other human pursuit that I doubt there's any one "chip" that could cripple the ability to truly grasp math in most of us.

 

It's beautiful stuff. And this from a high school grad who never got her Grade 12 math credit and thought she lacked that same "chip" for decades.

 

You know what we should do? Have a Liping Ma book club. Go through the book chapter by chapter. I could use the refresher and some, like you, could probably use the perspective of others.

[kalanamak]

Once again, wow. I appreciated the support, reassurance, and thought encouraging commentary!

 

I have only started to read Ma's book, but I am having trouble getting into a groove with the writing, as one person has commented.

 

If you go over to social groups there was a group for reading it together. Many joined, not many commented. I posted chapter summaries for awhile. You might go look at the group.

 

I got the MOST out of the book by looking at the problem at the beginning of the middle chapters, and thinking very carefully about how I would go about teaching it, before reading on.

 

It was, for me, a great moment of "stretching the mind on the rack of thought".