Arguments for the Need for Challenge

[La Condessa]

Does anyone have suggestions for how I can convince my husband that challenging the kids academically is important? Any books, or examples, or different ways to explain the need for them to experience that?

 

We had a very long talk the other night about my plans for their education, and he and I have very different views on what to do with a quick learner. He insists that they should just have the same work, and if they get it done very quickly because it is very easy for them, well then that's their reward for being smart. He insists that making them do something harder than an average kid would be doing at the same age would be like punishing them for their intelligence. I personally think that making a kid waste time doing work that is below their level would be more of a punishment.

 

I can see our differences in attitude reflected in our own school experiences--I hated being held back to the slower pace and think it was a huge waste of my time, whereas he loved never having to put forth any effort in school. You would think his rude awakening in law school would have shown him the error of that way.

[boscopup]

Well, I think it comes down to work ethic. Do you want to teach your kids to work hard (so they will work hard as adults), or do you want your kids to coast and always find everything easy. If they're never challenged, they'll never know what it's like to actually work.

 

There is also the boredom factor. Kids being given easy work all the time often get B-O-R-E-D.

 

Now as far as how MUCH work my kid gets... It's the same as an average kid. My 2nd grader has about 2-2.5 hours of school work total, just like most other WTM-style 2nd graders. He's just doing work that's above grade level so he's not bored to tears that whole time, and he has to work.

 

Challenging your kids doesn't mean you make them do schoolwork for 8+ hours a day in 1st grade while the average kids do 1.5 hours or so. I don't advocate doing that. Keep the work load age appropriate (though if a kid WANTS to work more, that's fine too), but make sure the work actually makes them think, so they're not coasting the whole time. Being smart won't get them anywhere if they never learn to work. It's the people that work hard that do well in the business world and such, not just intelligence.

[wapiti]

From http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/whytest.htm (bolding mine):

 

When gifted children are not given opportunities to work at their own level and pace, they settle for less than their best. They learn to slide by without stretching themselves. Patterns of underachievement are subtle and cumulative; they become harder to overcome with each year. Students who attain A’s on their papers with no effort are not prepared to take more challenging classes in high school and college. When work is too easy, self-confidence to attempt difficult tasks is steadily eroded. A student who has the potential to win a scholarship to an Ivy League university settles for a B average at a state college

[stripe]

I guess it comes down to whether one enjoys learning and what one's aspirations are for the future? Is being on par with the most average person going to lead to an exciting life for your children? And what do you want their homeschooling experience to be like -- boring/ho-hum/hurry-up-and-finish or exciting and inspiring? How involved is he going to be with their daily educational activities?

 

Given the age of your children and the fact that this conversation is hypothetical, I am not sure how much you need to probe this issue, if you plan to be in charge of their education.

[La Condessa]

My 2nd grader has about 2-2.5 hours of school work total, just like most other WTM-style 2nd graders. He's just doing work that's above grade level so he's not bored to tears that whole time, and he has to work.

 

Hm, I should make sure he didn't think I meant more work, just more challenging. Thanks, boscopup.

 

Thanks for the quote, wapiti. I'm going to have to look at that website in more detail.

[La Condessa]

How involved is he going to be with their daily educational activities?

Given the age of your children and the fact that this conversation is hypothetical, I am not sure how much you need to probe this issue, if you plan to be in charge of their education.

 

The daily work of their education will fall mostly to me, and I plan to allow my kids to work at whatever level and pace is the best fit for them individually. But I was surprised to hear how strongly he argued against it, and am concerned he would oppose my accelerating their education.

 

I am a major planner, and would rather try to convince him now than wait until it becomes an issue.

 

And what do you want their homeschooling experience to be like -- boring/ho-hum/hurry-up-and-finish or exciting and inspiring?

 

This is it exactly. One of my two primary reasons for homeschooling is that school was so frustratingly boring for me, while it could have been so wonderful. I want better for my kids.

[Barb_]

Excerpt: Nurture Shock by Po Bronson

 

...But as Thomas has progressed through school, this self-awareness that he's smart hasn't always translated into fearless confidence when attacking his schoolwork. In fact, Thomas's father noticed just the opposite. "Thomas didn't want to try things he wouldn't be successful at," his father says. "Some things came very quickly to him, but when they didn't, he gave up almost immediately, concluding, 'I'm not good at this.' " With no more than a glance, Thomas was dividing the world into two— things he was naturally good at and things he wasn't.

[LittleIzumi]

If you are never challenged, the moment you face challenge, you freeze. Did you actively remind him about his law school experience and how you want to prepare them for rigorous post-secondary education? Not to mention being BORED OUT OF YOUR MIND :lol:. If you wanted to just do the same as everyone else, why homeschool in the first place, ya know?

[Carpe]

http://www.wku.edu/academy/?p=430

This article was brought up on this forum recently. It spoke to me so I bookmarked it. Have you, and more importantly your DH, read it?

 

If during the first five or six years of school, a child earns good grades and high praise without having to make much effort, what are all the things he doesn’t learn that most children learn by third grade?

 

Take a moment to answer this ques*tion yourself. Or have your child’s educators and administrators answer it. What isn’t learned? As you skim over your answers, you may be surprised at the sheer volume. But on closer look, you may be astounded by the depth and weight of those answers – and the impact they make on your child’s life.

 

I know there are plenty of books about it, but I'm drawing a blank.

[stripe]

http://www.wku.edu/academy/?p=430

This article was brought up on this forum recently. It spoke to me so I bookmarked it. Have you, and more importantly your DH, read it?

Thanks.

[8filltheheart]

I agree that you should ask him if he meant no more work vs. not appropriate level.

 

One more thought, though. Just b/c they can does not always mean that they should. We really have to know our kids' personalities and own desires. My 12 yod really started to dislike school by the time she was in 5th grade. She was working on about a 7th-8th grade level in most subjects but was also taking high school French.

 

I really recognized the difference and I regretted not noticing it earlier. I let her decide our direction for the 6th and again this yr for 7th and will again next yr for 8th. I came up with a list of choices that I thought would really interest her and she got to make the final decisions. (Last yr it was a yr based on Chronicles of Narnia, this yr is based on Anne of Green Gables, and she has already decided that next yr she wants to do LLfLOTR.)

 

(fwiw, my dd got there w/far less time intensive work than the vast majority of posters on this forum. So, it really is a matter of individual children. It is also a very personal family issue as well. For example, I would never have a young student doing AP type work b/c it is so output intensive even if they were capable of it. We don't believe in graduating early, etc. So, there isn't a one size fits all answer. HOWEVER.......mom and dad really should be on the same pg even when other families aren't! ;) )

[La Condessa]

Excerpt: Nurture Shock by Po Bronson

 

Wow, that article was fascinating! Thank you.

[Rivka]

I've been strongly influenced by Carol Dweck's research. (Written about by Po Bronson here - not sure if it's the exact same Bronson piece that was previously linked.) Dweck says that it's harmful for kids to have a commodity-based view of intelligence: that intelligence is something you have and that smart is something you are. She's found, again and again, that kids who buy into this model actually avoid challenges, because they don’t want to take the risk of discovering that they’re not so smart after all. She advocates praising children for their effort, rather than their ability, and teaching them that the brain is a muscle that grows stronger with exercise.

 

My reading of Dweck’s research, combined with my own childhood memories, has convinced me that it isn’t just suboptimal, but actively harmful to keep bright or gifted children at an unchallenging work level. When work is too easy, there’s no way to attribute success to effort. That forces children into the conclusion that their successes are based on natural ability, with all the harmful results Dweck has documented. They also lack opportunities to develop the work habits and emotional coping skills needed to deal with difficult tasks. (I am Exhibit A for the fact that intelligence does not automatically correlate with good work habits, as every teacher I ever had could probably testify with great frustration.)

 

Like boscopup, I don't ask my daughter to work longer or to produce more material than the average WTM kid does in early elementary. She puts in two hours or so of academic work a day. In particular, at age 6 she only writes a couple of sentences a day at most. But she works at a level that is challenging and interesting. By golly, when she accomplishes something, she knows it's because she put in effort!

[Barb_]

Wow, that article was fascinating! Thank you.

 

If you liked that, you should get the book. It's awesome :)

[Crimson Wife]

Is he a sports fan? If so, ask him whether he thinks a kid with unusual athletic ability ought to be stay on the typical rec league team or whether the budding athlete ought to be challenged by joining a competitive travel team.

[8filltheheart]

Is he a sports fan? If so, ask him whether he thinks a kid with unusual athletic ability ought to be stay on the typical rec league team or whether the budding athlete ought to be challenged by joining a competitive travel team.

 

After reading your post, I went back and looked to see if ages of the OP's children were listed. (I was wondering if we were talking primary age kids or elementary age.) I didn't pay attention the first time I read it.......the oldest is 2 1/2. Regardless of whether it is more or age equivalent, after realizing the actual ages, in our household and b/c of my own personal philosophy toward early childhood, I would agree with the dh at this pt. Parenting alone reveals a lot over time. I would never try to predict how to teach my children when they are older vs. simply waiting until we get there and understanding the little person in front of me.

Edited September 17, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[SKL]

Well, if you never use your muscles, guess what happens? They atrophy; you waste your God-given talent. The same is true of the mind. You have to exercise it in order to make the most use of it - even if you are born with a tendency to be smart.

 

One of the most important things we have to learn is: how to learn. If a child never has any challenge in school, how will she learn how to learn, and how to attack actual challenges in life?

 

I do think there is some research out there that proves that accelerating bright children is beneficial for their minds. Unfortunately, I can't cite it, but probably someone here can.

[wapiti]

I too didn't realize the kids in question were so young. At their ages, to have such an argument seems a little premature. I'd let it go rather than pestering him with books and such about the need for challenge. By the time you get around to ordering curricula in a few years, he'll have forgotten all about the conversation (usually, I don't even tell my DH what I'm ordering, unless I'm especially excited about it :lol:).

[crazyforlatin]

I too didn't realize the kids in question were so young. At their ages, to have such an argument seems a little premature. I'd let it go rather than pestering him with books and such about the need for challenge. By the time you get around to ordering curricula in a few years, he'll have forgotten all about the conversation (usually, I don't even tell my DH what I'm ordering, unless I'm especially excited about it :lol:).

 

Dh could care less and usually stares at me blankly when I talk about math; in fact, I'm not even sure why he agreed to homeschool.

[crazyforlatin]

A 2.5 year old is still a baby; or at least that's how I remembered DD when she was at that age :D. Anyway, I read to DD at least 800 picture books that year (we don't have a TV) and it was such a fun time for both of us. Everything was learned through play and conversation.

[stripe]

I too didn't realize the kids in question were so young. At their ages, to have such an argument seems a little premature. I'd let it go rather than pestering him with books and such about the need for challenge. By the time you get around to ordering curricula in a few years, he'll have forgotten all about the conversation (usually, I don't even tell my DH what I'm ordering, unless I'm especially excited about it :lol:).

 

I did see the ages of her kids, and that's why I said what I said, which I hope didn't come across as rude or dismissive. It might also be that if her kids are super geniuses, he will see things differently instead of in theory.

 

I told my husband before we were married that under no circumstances would I homeschool.

 

People change!

[boscopup]

I too didn't realize the kids in question were so young. At their ages, to have such an argument seems a little premature. I'd let it go rather than pestering him with books and such about the need for challenge. By the time you get around to ordering curricula in a few years, he'll have forgotten all about the conversation (usually, I don't even tell my DH what I'm ordering, unless I'm especially excited about it :lol:).

 

:iagree: My DH doesn't really care what I use. He trusts me to make good decisions. He also doesn't always know what level DS1 is working at. He does expect DS will be doing algebra early, but he just guessed that on his own because he knows his son (plus both parents are mathy), not because he knows what number is on the current math book.

 

I have a 2 year old, and I suspect he's going to be a lot like his oldest brother. I told him the other day, that he had the brain of DS1 and the silliness of DS2, and that's a scary combination. He said, "Why?" :lol: I have TWO in the "why" stage at one time now, and they're 2.5 years apart. Ack! Anyway, I have no educational goals for him right now. He's just playing until he's ready to do Kindergarten stuff. He can roughly count, and I think he's starting to get some one-to-one correspondence, but we won't be starting "math" anytime soon. He's just 2. I won't make any predictions of how his academics will go, and how much he'll need to be challenged. I just don't know yet. I am really only challenging my oldest right now, who is in 2nd grade, and even that is just giving him the appropriate level of input while still requiring age-appropriate output. And sometimes, like this past week, I notice that the weather is just beautiful, and I cancel school and chuck all the kids outside to enjoy the fall-like weather. :D

 

Now I do understand the OP to be talking about the future, and not what to do with her kids NOW. I also agree though that by time her kids are ready to be "challenged", her DH may not at all remember the conversation or even care what levels the kids are given. I wouldn't sweat it right now. There are lots of things DH and I have discussed at younger ages, where we changed our minds when the kids got to the ages in question. :) In fact, at that age, my DH didn't agree with homeschooling at all, and now he's fully supportive of it. ;)

[Crimson Wife]

After reading your post, I went back and looked to see if ages of the OP's children were listed. (I was wondering if we were talking primary age kids or elementary age.) I didn't pay attention the first time I read it.......the oldest is 2 1/2. Regardless of whether it is more or age equivalent, after realizing the actual ages, in our household and b/c of my own personal philosophy toward early childhood, I would agree with the dh at this pt. Parenting alone reveals a lot over time. I would never try to predict how to teach my children when they are older vs. simply waiting until we get there and understanding the little person in front of me.

 

When my oldest was 2 1/2, I was *VERY* worried about what we were going to do about her for schooling. At that time, we thought we were headed to Manhattan, and the insanity of private school or PS gifted program admissions there. Unlike my 2nd and 3rd who are/were late talkers, my oldest was an early talker and it was clear even by 2 1/2 that she was very bright. Academically, she could've held her own in the typical kindergarten class though obviously maturity-wise & motor skills-wise she was nowhere ready to be in one. I'm with you on holding off formal academics during the preschool years.

[La Condessa]

Regardless of whether it is more or age equivalent, after realizing the actual ages, in our household and b/c of my own personal philosophy toward early childhood, I would agree with the dh at this pt. Parenting alone reveals a lot over time. I would never try to predict how to teach my children when they are older vs. simply waiting until we get there and understanding the little person in front of me.

 

I wasn't planning on definitely accelerating them, but rather I have considering it as a possibility based on our family history. I was talking about educational philosophies with my husband and was surprised to find that he is against acceleration in general, and not based on the individual student.

[La Condessa]

A 2.5 year old is still a baby; or at least that's how I remembered DD when she was at that age :D. Anyway, I read to DD at least 800 picture books that year (we don't have a TV) and it was such a fun time for both of us. Everything was learned through play and conversation.

 

We are doing similar things, lots of reading and playing and coloring, plus talking about beginning phonics and numbers when she asks me. I didn't mean that we are accelerating now, just that I see the likelihood once we do start formal academics later on, and I like to plan ahead.

 

It might also be that if her kids are super geniuses, he will see things differently instead of in theory.

 

Not at all, my first daughter doesn't look like being nearly as advanced as lots of kids here, and the second is too young to know. It is all theory at this point, and wanting to get onto the same page together in our goals and intentions for their education.

 

Now I do understand the OP to be talking about the future, and not what to do with her kids NOW. I also agree though that by time her kids are ready to be "challenged", her DH may not at all remember the conversation or even care what levels the kids are given. I wouldn't sweat it right now. There are lots of things DH and I have discussed at younger ages, where we changed our minds when the kids got to the ages in question. :)

 

Maybe I should just let it lie for now . . . I was thinking in terms of, 'Well it took me a year to convince him we should try homeschooling. If it takes that long to settle on something like this, I would want that resolved before we start.' But, honestly, this isn't such a black-and-white decision as enrolling a kid in school or not, so I guess it doesn't need to be decided in advance. That goes against my tendency to plan out everything in advance, but I guess I should just try to let go.

[8filltheheart]

I wasn't planning on definitely accelerating them, but rather I have considering it as a possibility based on our family history. I was talking about educational philosophies with my husband and was surprised to find that he is against acceleration in general, and not based on the individual student.

 

I don't think I articulated my thoughts very clearly. Parenting is something that "matures" just like anything else. When our oldest was 5, we were much different parents than when he was 2. How we parent our 8th toddler resembles nothing of how we parented our 1st one. Simply b/c you each have certain views now, it does not necessarily mean that those views will still be divergent in 2 yrs.

 

I would recommend simply doing mommy things with your children at their level. If you always simply do what is normal for them (reading them stories they enjoy, baking, playing glue and beans or whatever, playdough, etc), by the time they are actually school-age it may be that it isn't even a necessary discussion. It is just a continuation of what you have been doing. I doubt that if your child is reading, that your dh would expect you to work on the alphabet. ;)

 

Learning how to parent 2 children simultaneously and dealing w/toddlerhood and babyhood for the first time is enough of a mental leap for most men. :lol: I think if I had discussed educational philosophies w/my dh back then (well, actually even now!!) his eyes would have glazed over. :tongue_smilie:

[La Condessa]

Thank you for your advice, 8FillTheHeart. I appreciate your more experienced perspective. I suppose I should just try not to worry about crossing that bridge until we actually come to it.

[boscopup]

I don't think I articulated my thoughts very clearly. Parenting is something that "matures" just like anything else. When our oldest was 5, we were much different parents than when he was 2. How we parent our 8th toddler resembles nothing of how we parented our 1st one. Simply b/c you each have certain views now, it does not necessarily mean that those views will still be divergent in 2 yrs.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: It's amazing how much things can change even in a short couple years. :tongue_smilie:

 

Learning how to parent 2 children simultaneously and dealing w/toddlerhood and babyhood for the first time is enough of a mental leap for most men. :lol: I think if I had discussed educational philosophies w/my dh back then (well, actually even now!!) his eyes would have glazed over. :tongue_smilie:

And another :iagree::lol:

[SKL]

I think that your husband will feel it if she needs acceleration.

 

Most of the people I talk to roll their eyes at "those parents" who think their kid is so brilliant and needs unique challenges. Then they hear some of the stuff that comes out of my dd2's mouth, and they say, "why isn't she in school yet??"

[Laura Corin]

I made a difference between working at an appropriate level and working longer hours. Perhaps he's afraid that your children will have to work longer in order to accomplish higher level work. I always limited hours, so we often did a higher-level curriculum over two years so that they children had plenty of time to play.

 

Also agreeing with the other posters: it's important to develop a work ethic so that intelligent people don't give up when faced with something difficult. It's something that Hobbes still struggles with: he's so used to understanding things first time, that he feels stupid and wants to give up if he has to work.

 

Laura

[deacongirl]

http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Default.aspx

 

I would google gifted underachievement and start finding appropriate articles. Yes, your kids are young. But imo it isn't too early to be thinking about these issues. Imo your dh's position is contrary to research. With time and some more introspection and reading perhaps his thoughts will evolve.

[deacongirl]

More evidence in for acceleration of gifted students:

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/browse_articles_164.aspx

[La Condessa]

Thank you, all.