Wondering...

[Guest]

How many of us are schooling "nonstandard" kids who do not fit tidily into any particular categories (i.e. special needs, gifted)? This could mean VSL kids for whom standard classical text-based methods do not work particularly well, spectrum kids, 2e, very rebellious or independent-minded kids who resist direct or top-down instruction, etc.

 

I think probably everybody knows mine by now :lol:

 

I have a dd, 15, 2e, Aspie, most definitely a creative type resistant to being told what to study or how to think. If it's proposed as a joint, cooperative learning venture, if she can put her own twist into it, if it's nonlinear and eccentric, she's good as gold. Some VSL tendencies but bizarrely enough, visual processing and visual memory deficits. Verbally highly gifted.

 

Particularly interested in hearing from people who post on several forums because their child has needs, issues, or abilities that cross over categorical boundaries.

 

Sometimes I feel very alone; at other times I get the sense there are relatively speaking a lot of us out there.

 

Would a subforum specifically focused on issues that cross these boundaries, for kids who are extraordinarily difficult to pin down, label, and educate, be useful to you?

Edited August 12, 2011 by Guest

[8filltheheart]

I have 8.

[Guest]

I have 8.

 

I thought you said on another thread you had at least one who was going the AP-type route and that this competitive kind of schedule/curriculum suited him totally. I'd count someone like that as a standard kid, by which I mean a kid for whom "the system" or one aspect of it like the Rigor Route truly does work just fine.

 

A kid can be quirky, have unconventional interests, resist "schoolwork," and yet overall -- at least to my way of thinking -- still do well with quite standard curricula and top-down teaching methods. I was like that myself in high school, reading other books under my desk, secretly rebellious, but not a truly gifted kid and overall doing very well within the system.

 

I'm looking for parents whose kids CANNOT function well within any single category, who CANNOT thrive with the kinds of minor tweaks and accommodations to individual differences we all give our kids.

 

We can all to one extent or another define our kids as "different" in some way. This isn't what I'm looking for.

[8filltheheart]

I thought you said on another thread you had at least one who was going the AP-type route and that this competitive kind of schedule/curriculum suited him totally. I'd count someone like that as a standard kid, by which I mean a kid for whom "the system" or one aspect of it like the Rigor Route truly does work just fine.

 

A kid can be quirky, have unconventional interests, resist "schoolwork," and yet overall -- at least to my way of thinking -- still do well with quite standard curricula and top-down teaching methods. I was like that myself in high school, reading other books under my desk, secretly rebellious, but not a truly gifted kid and overall doing very well within the system.

 

I'm looking for parents whose kids CANNOT function well within any single category, who CANNOT thrive with the kinds of minor tweaks and accommodations to individual differences we all give our kids.

 

We can all to one extent or another define our kids as "different" in some way. This isn't what I'm looking for.

 

The very ds you describe couldn't read simple level 1 readers in 3rd grade, yet had taught himself all of his multiplication tables w/o even knowing what multiplication even was when he was 5 or 6. In 4th grade, he finally started reading simply chapter books, but could only spell like a first grader. I was reading him his math word problems b/c his decoding when reading was so awful that he couldn't focus on the math. But reading him the math book, he was beyond elementary level math and ready for alg.

 

He works incredibly hard and has to overcome HUGE obstacles to achieve what he does. He does not fit in a "mold."

 

FWIW, all of my kids learn so differently than each other that your proposition actually makes me :confused: . I have been teaching my kids for 18 yrs (if you simply count school yrs.) I have never, not once, taught any of my kids the same way. I have to create their subjects and their plans to find ways that meet their specific needs and learning styles.

[Colleen in NS]

How many of us are schooling "nonstandard" kids...spectrum kids...

 

Particularly interested in hearing from people who post on several forums because their child has needs, issues, or abilities that cross over categorical boundaries.

 

Sometimes I feel very alone; at other times I get the sense there are relatively speaking a lot of us out there.

 

I have a good friend who will begin homeschooling in September with her 13 year old autistic son. He definitely has his charming quirks, is highly intelligent (is constantly telling her about Star Wars and Star Trek - one of the two anyway, can't remember which), and extremely funny. He inhales information about whatever his current passion is, and then goes and tells her all the most minute details about it.

 

I told her about these forums, in particular the special needs board (and the more I think about her son, the accelerated learner forum), in case she wants to go looking for info. that I am not experienced to help her with. I don't know anything about homeschooling an autistic child. So anyway, if she ever signs up here, you may see her around.

 

She is well-read about autistic issues, and she took her son out of the school system because he wasn't learning math, writing, grammar, and spelling. He wasn't getting the extra help that he was promised, and he was bored. She went with me to our local curriculum fair in June. After looking through all the various materials there for these basic skill areas, she decided on things such as WWE, FLL, not sure what math program yet, and she wants me to teach her how to use WRTR. I described WRTR (and WWE and FLL when she called me over to the vendor booth) to her, and she lit right up and said, "These will be perfect for him! These will be what will help him learn what he didn't learn in school!" or some such comment, and proceeded to tell me the specific ways that they would help him. She is very excited to get him going on these materials, and she is excited that since he won't be on the p.s. schedule anymore, he will have much more time to pursue his passions. HE is excited about it all, too, because he knows he won't be bored anymore, and because he already has a good buddy who homeschools - my son.

 

I do hope she joins the forums!

Edited August 12, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Guest]

 

FWIW, all of my kids learn so differently than each other that your proposition actually makes me :confused: . I have been teaching my kids for 18 yrs (if you simply count school yrs.) I have never, not once, taught any of my kids the same way. I have to create their subjects and their plans to find ways that meet their specific needs and learning styles.

 

Teaching a kid in a different way from your other kids does not necessarily mean that the kid CANNOT thrive or succeed with a curriculum that is fairly standard, taught explicitly, top-down, incrementally and/or repetitively taught.

 

I may have only one child of my own, but I've taught high school, junior high, a co-op class, and university students ranging from freshmen to master's students. There is a huge difference between kids who need accommodations of some sort but CAN succeed/thrive in one conventional path or another, and kids who are so extreme in their wiring, or so otherwise nonstandard that they cannot even if they wish to. Unlike the child you describe, they are not motivated to perform in anything resembling standard way, whether or not they must overcome challenges to do so; and if they are coaxed, urged, or forced to try, they fall apart, break down or shut down.

 

I have said in previous threads that people who have kids like this WILL KNOW what I mean. There are a handful of people on the boards who do; I was curious whether there are many others.

 

People whose kids skirt the edges, but manage to function within one or other versions of a standard curriculum, will not understand. This doesn't mean your kids therefore must all be (and an be taught) alike, can all do equally well with exactly the same methods, or don't have their issues or gifts or otherwise deviate from any and all norms. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that none of them are archetypal standard students. It means, however, that the DEGREE to which they differ is qualitatively different than the kids I am talking about.

 

You strike me as someone who is very satisfied with the ways she's found to teach her individual kids, and who uses a lot of regular curricula despite needed tweaking, as I see from your siggie (AP classes, Forster's, Smarr, regular commercial language curricula, etc.). Hats off to you for that. Your kid may need to overcome challenges to perform in an AP class, but apparently he wants to, likes it, and can do it. Some gifted kids cannot and will not, for whatever reasons. Some dyslexic, extreme VSL, or otherwise 2e can struggle through college prep requirements, for instance, but even with standard accommodations, they think they're stupid, they know they can't learn the way other kids do or their teachers expect them to, they don't retain, the material is meaningless to them because standard teaching techniques don't allow them to engage with it in the way they need to, they have nervous breakdowns, they lose all motivation, etc. Parents know the costs are too high; they may or may not know what to do about it.

 

There have been a number of threads on similar issues, many of which have gotten derailed or hopelessly tangled up precisely because of this issue of definition.

 

It comes down, in the end, to the fact that if your kid is nonstandard in the way I, Jackie, Jenn, Lisa, and others have often tried to use the term, you will know; and what is more, you will have a sense of marvelous relief and identification in discussing this with others who have similar kids.

 

There are a lot of people with kids just entering high school this coming year, or kids who are bringing high schoolers home to work with them. I'd like to hear from people like this, people who chimed in on the past VSL thread, or the thread about kids who design or contribute to their own course descriptions or choose some of their own courses of study (not just "an elective," but kids who NEED and have input into required subjects), or people who have said they feel their kids are not best served by a typical course of study, at whatever level (college prep, honors, AP, etc.).

 

If there's no one else out there who feels this sense of recognition and relief, fine. But a number of us who do feel it have been finding that it's difficult to post on the regular high school forum because our kids are so vastly different that our attempts to have discussions on the regular high school board about how to best work with them are prone to be misunderstood or get caught up in criticism or issues of definitions; we have to artificially chop up what we say about our kids to make the questions we have "fit" into the advanced learner or special needs forums. We have been wondering whether there are enough of us to make a sub-forum a possibility. So if you don't identify with what I'm saying, then this probably wouldn't be your dilemma, whatever other challenges you have with your kids.

[quark]

I wrote something but decided after re-reading your posts, KarenAnne, that you probably mean something else. All the best in your search to find what you are looking for! :)

Edited August 12, 2011 by quark
Removed earlier post

[J'etudie]

.

[Tullia]

 

If there's no one else out there who feels this sense of recognition and relief, fine. But a number of us who do feel it have been finding that it's difficult to post on the regular high school forum because our kids are so vastly different that our attempts to have discussions on the regular high school board about how to best work with them are prone to be misunderstood or get caught up in criticism or issues of definitions; we have to artificially chop up what we say about our kids to make the questions we have "fit" into the advanced learner or special needs forums. We have been wondering whether there are enough of us to make a sub-forum a possibility. So if you don't identify with what I'm saying, then this probably wouldn't be your dilemma, whatever other challenges you have with your kids.

 

Ah, yes this makes things clearer for me, and I apologize for having inadvertently made things more difficult for you in the past. It was not my intention to do so. It is my opinion that there are, indeed, many people who post here who can identify with the issues you articulate. However, it is my sense that the division point can be found not in the sense of "recognition and relief" but in the choices people have made about methods for dealing with singular issues.

 

May I gently suggest that you revise your original subject line in order to make it easier for people who might be interested in spinning off another sub-forum to find you? If you select the "go advanced" option in the edit screen it's possible to change the subject line. Another option might be to construct a poll which clearly delineates your objectives. Doing so might help the moderators get a better idea of whether or not another sub-forum would be justified. Another option might be using the social groups option if your group turns out to be too small for a separate forum (at least in the beginning). The number of people reading and posting on this forum has increased dramatically in the past year. It may be time to spin off another.

 

I visit several public blogs regularly that I found through these boards. I participate in a group (not education related) that uses Blogger for sharing ideas. There are a variety of privacy and administrative options available and it doesn't require a lot of time or technical knowledge to set up a blog, advertise, or maintain it.

[8filltheheart]

KA, I think these threads spin their wheels b/c you re-define what it is that you are looking for.

 

The description in your OP discusses kids that don't fit into tidy categories and don't fit standard texts:

 

How many of us are schooling "nonstandard" kids who do not fit tidily into any particular categories (i.e. special needs, gifted)? This could mean VSL kids for whom standard classical text-based methods do not work particularly well, spectrum kids, 2e, very rebellious or independent-minded kids who resist direct or top-down instruction, etc.

 

 

I have a VSL 2E student, a spectrum child, a very adhd child, etc. What I don't have are "very rebellious" kids who "resist" instruction. (I won't stipulate "top-down" or "direct" b/c the way you use those terms is not the way I would classify the terms. For example, AoPS is not "top down" or "direct" instruction, but it is most definitely "instruction." It appears that your definition of "top-down" or "direct" means a teacher deciding the course or direction of content.)

 

In the next post, you narrow your definition:

 

I'm looking for parents whose kids CANNOT function well within any single category, who CANNOT thrive with the kinds of minor tweaks and accommodations to individual differences we all give our kids.

 

 

So, you don't want to hear about the kids that fit the original description if we have been successful in finding a way to teach them successfully even if it means creating our own curriculum and approaches. That is a major distinction. B/c there are many of us who have kids that don't fit any mold and yet have found a way to teach them. (FWIW, I completely disagree with your assessment of "minor tweaks or accommodations." My personal POV is that I teach. Period. What I use and how I use it......you cannot identify from a list. However, as pointed out above, I think the issue is not what I use or how we use it. The issue is that I teach and my kids are willing to learn. It is the "resistance" that is not the dominate issue.)

 

Teaching a kid in a different way from your other kids does not necessarily mean that the kid CANNOT thrive or succeed with a curriculum that is fairly standard, taught explicitly, top-down, incrementally and/or repetitively taught.

 

That is a gross generalization. The use of curriculum (which is simply those materials used to teach) does not necessarily mean "top-down" or "incremental" or "repetitious". Again, AoPS is curriculum that does not meet those definitions. MCT is another. Self-designed curriculum may or may not.....it depends on what is selected and how it is used.

 

If you mean that they only want to learn that which they want to learn and how they want to learn it.....that is a completely different issue. B/c, no, I don't have any children like that mainly b/c that is simply not how we function.

 

You then go back to this description:

 

....kids who are so extreme in their wiring, or so otherwise nonstandard that they cannot even if they wish to. Unlike the child you describe, they are not motivated to perform in anything resembling standard way, whether or not they must overcome challenges to do so; and if they are coaxed, urged, or forced to try, they fall apart, break down or shut down.

 

I think this is what you want. You want parents of kids that have not found a way to help their kids perform "in anything resembling a standard way." It isn't the learning style, it isn't the struggles or issues.

 

People whose kids skirt the edges, but manage to function within one or other versions of a standard curriculum, will not understand.

 

I actually find this statement condescending. My kids don't "skirt edges." I live in the thick of multiple, overwhelming issues. The difference is how you and I view how to approach them and how we deal with them.

 

This doesn't mean your kids therefore must all be (and an be taught) alike, can all do equally well with exactly the same methods, or don't have their issues or gifts or otherwise deviate from any and all norms. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that none of them are archetypal standard students. It means, however, that the DEGREE to which they differ is qualitatively different than the kids I am talking about.

 

You are making assumptions. You don't know me and you certainly don't know my children. I actually believe I have 2 children that are very much like the VSLs described in the other thread. However, I believe you and I have philosophical differences in how to approach the issues that our children have.

 

You strike me as someone who is very satisfied with the ways she's found to teach her individual kids, and who uses a lot of regular curricula despite needed tweaking, as I see from your siggie (AP classes, Forster's, Smarr, regular commercial language curricula, etc.). Hats off to you for that. Your kid may need to overcome challenges to perform in an AP class, but apparently he wants to, likes it, and can do it. Some gifted kids cannot and will not, for whatever reasons. Some dyslexic, extreme VSL, or otherwise 2e can struggle through college prep requirements, for instance, but even with standard accommodations, they think they're stupid, they know they can't learn the way other kids do or their teachers expect them to, they don't retain, the material is meaningless to them because standard teaching techniques don't allow them to engage with it in the way they need to, they have nervous breakdowns, they lose all motivation, etc. Parents know the costs are too high; they may or may not know what to do about it.

 

This paragraph is the crux of why I ever even engage in these threads. You are correct in the fact that I am comfortable in how I teach. However, you are absolutely incorrect in your comments. It isn't about the texts. It is about how I teach. Anyone who actually knows me would know that physical texts are far less of an issue with me than I how I engage my students in teaching. I'm not sure where the "way other kids do or teachers expect them to" fits in in the homeschool environment since we are the teacher and other kids aren't relevant. How we do that will definitely vary. Your approach is completely and totally opposite of mine.

 

Simply b/c my approach doesn't mesh with your philosophy on how to approach these types of students does not negate the fact that I have students that learn differently.

 

 

There have been a number of threads on similar issues, many of which have gotten derailed or hopelessly tangled up precisely because of this issue of definition.

 

I do not believe it is the definition that is the issue. It is the disagreement of how we approach teaching our children.

 

 

It comes down, in the end, to the fact that if your kid is nonstandard in the way I, Jackie, Jenn, Lisa, and others have often tried to use the term, you will know; and what is more, you will have a sense of marvelous relief and identification in discussing this with others who have similar kids.

 

There are a lot of people with kids just entering high school this coming year, or kids who are bringing high schoolers home to work with them. I'd like to hear from people like this, people who chimed in on the past VSL thread, or the thread about kids who design or contribute to their own course descriptions or choose some of their own courses of study (not just "an elective," but kids who NEED and have input into required subjects), or people who have said they feel their kids are not best served by a typical course of study, at whatever level (college prep, honors, AP, etc.).

 

You have mixed multiple issues above. There is a huge difference between kids that aren't best served by a typical course of study and everything you have written up to now. There is also a distinction between those that aren't served well by a typical course of study and those that "must" design their own courses. There can definitely be kids that fit the first category that don't fall into any of the descriptions earlier in this thread. Those students do not need need to be spectrum, 2E, or any of the other descriptors you have used.

 

Your first description in the OP also does not preclude that the students aren't going to be able to take APs, college prep, or honors.

 

This is why these threads spin. I don't think your OP is what you actually want to discuss.

 

 

I wrote something but decided after re-reading your posts, KarenAnne, that you probably mean something else. All the best in your search to find what you are looking for! :)

 

Exactly. I read your post before you deleted it. I actually think you can relate to what was originally being described.

 

We have been wondering whether there are enough of us to make a sub-forum a possibility.

 

I hope you are able to get a sub-forum that meets your needs. I think that the discussion of kids that don't fit the mold for standard college-prep courses is valuable. I think that that issue is repeatedly lost in the attempt to say it is the product of specific issues b/c that is where you constantly lose me in the discussions.

 

(ETA: I see that the OP has been edited to add the comment about a sub-forum. Glad that was added b/c it does bring some clarity to the purpose of the discussion. When the OP was made there was no mention of a sub-forum and it was not brought up until this post in the thread. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3031714&highlight=sub-forum#post3031714 )

Edited August 13, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[VBCaroline]

 

Most people only hear him talk about his interests and therefore consider him a genius. No one except dh and my mom have any idea of how challenging it has been to help him feel successful, with school and with his other issues. They. are. clueless.

This is how I feel about my oldest dd. Nonverbal Learning Disability, possibly an Aspie(she has the diagnosis-I'm just not sure it fits). Everyone says how "smart" she is because she can do things like come up with the name of the Zoroastrian god in Sunday School or tell you everything there is to know about sharks or reptiles or bats(this is an ever-expanding list). She plays the violin beautifully and can listen to a tune one time and play it back almost perfectly. But...she is easily overwhelmed, flies into rages, has a lot of anxiety, can't stop talking long enough to really concentrate on the hard stuff...it goes on and on.

[Guest]

May I gently suggest that you revise your original subject line in order to make it easier for people who might be interested in spinning off another sub-forum to find you? If you select the "go advanced" option in the edit screen it's possible to change the subject line. Another option might be to construct a poll which clearly delineates your objectives.

 

Yes, of course you may suggest that and I thank you. I didn't post it that way the first time around because I was assuming that, given the number of threads I've been starting lately which have dealt explicitly and at great length with extreme VSL, 2e kids, gifted spectrum kids, kids who resist direct instruction, etc., people who had been on other threads and seen the positions and concerns of Jackie, myself, and others would know what I meant in this one as well. We have explained at great length over and over and over.

 

Clearly this was not the right way to go and I appreciate your suggestion. But quite frankly at this point I don't know that having a "2e" or "nonstandard kids" subject line would have made much difference. With every single thread I try to start to discuss these issues, no matter how clearly ALL of us try to describe the non-homogenous group to which my concerns apply, this very same thing happens.

 

Part of it is that there is no single good catch-all term or phrase that captures the tremendous differences among kids like this, so I do understand that definitions can become an issue, at least at first. But please. There have been so many threads, RECENT ones, in which similar kids have been discussed at length, vibrant and long threads in which many other homeschoolers have clearly recognized kinship among their own children and the concerns being discussed.

 

I'm truly sorry that some people feel confused and mixed up about it. But the ones who recognize their kids and their issues do not, despite a lack of easily recognizable phrases or labels. 2e comes closest, perhaps, but still doesn't get it quite right because not all the concerns we share include specific academic LDs. "Quirky" is too broad and for some kids far too mild a word. "Mislabeled" assumes a diagnosis. Nonstandard is immediately open to contention.

 

I am open to suggestions from anybody with a kid(s) like this who can think of an inclusive yet exacting and specific phrase.

 

But I still stand by what I said: if you have a child like this, you will know. There will be no confusion and no doubt about it. You'll know, and you'll think: oh, at last, I'm not alone, there are others out there dealing with kids like mine, I've found a "group" that shares my concerns and my struggles, at long last.

[onaclairadeluna]

I think a 2e forum would be wonderful.

 

My son was way out of the WTM model so much so that I did not even consider it for him for elementary. We did other things. When my daughter came around I revisited the book, it's a wonderful fit for her. I looked ahead at the rhetoric stage and realized that there are many things there that my son is ready for.

 

He didn't fit the mold for two reasons. First he was intellectually ahead of the stages. When I was doing my teaching credential they had us test our children for Piaget's stages of intellectual growth. I figured the test was all wrong because he could do things that he was not supposed to be able to do. Anyhow, working on grammar stage material when he was little would have not been as stimulating as the other things he was able to do because we more loosely schooled then.

 

In retrospect, I did not do as much skill based work as I should have. I didn't slack, but I think I could have done a bit more. Nevertheless homeschooling is always a work in progress.

 

Secondly, he has expressive issues that make writing and speaking really tough. He was happy as a clam watching all the teaching company history courses when he was 7 but if I asked him what had happened he couldn't tell me. Later if it came up in conversation the information poured out of him. It was there, he just couldn't access it at will.

 

Later when I revisited the book (for my dd) I decided to use the rhetoric material with DS. I even let him read the chapter. "Is this something you want to try?" Even now I am not sure if you could call what we are doing "traditional". I think he will follow a college prep AP, honors whatever you want to call it rigorous or whatnot type route. But with his issues there is always doubt and anxiety, even when everything goes well. Something in the back of my mind. A memory of him being dragged from preschool because he wanted to be a frog during the horsey game. I think I will still worry like this when he is in graduate school.

 

Anyhow Karen, your threads are always comforting to me. I also appreciate 8fills perspective. My primary goal is to help my son learn both to feed his strengths and to help him with his struggles. Not so that he can fit into somebody's idea of the perfect educational method but so that he is not limited when he is older. I do what I can. I can't do everything.

 

I think I am constantly walking the line, trying to figure out which of my son's issues are "can'ts" and which are "needs helps". Even if I determine if my son needs help with something, trying to figure out what on earth I can do for him is sometimes astoundingly difficult.

 

The other day it was suggested to me that I let him dictate an essay instead of writing it himself. That didn't work. His essay was an entire page of a run on sentence. I gave him back his pencil and notebook and he did a much better job without silly dictation. Now for some kids this might be just what they needed. My kid, not so much.

 

The common thread with our kids is that they all are completely different. I think it's a great idea to hash out discussions about our kids. Are there ways we can help them learn things that are difficult? What do we need to tweak to make things work? What works for one family is not going to necessarily work for another. Different LDs, different levels of giftedness, different kids in general.

 

If we try to define who these kids are, our kids probably won't fit into whatever definition we come up with.

 

Certainly there are going to be kids that can't do AP honors etc. and there will be kids that can. I so strongly relate to both of you (8fill and Karen) when you discuss your kids that I can't help but thinking that you have so much more in common than what is evident from the discussion. I feel like I can learn so much from what 8 fill is doing to help her kids and I can learn a ton from Karen's ideas of non traditional learning resources.

 

So that was the long answer the short answer is a resounding YES.

[onaclairadeluna]

2e comes closest, perhaps, but still doesn't get it quite right because not all the concerns we share include specific academic LDs.

 

Well this is true, but it seems to be such a common thread among 2e kids that you might as well just embrace that title.

 

I totally hear what you are saying though. There are many aspects of my son's personality that are not specifically an LD but are so difficult to deal with (inflexibility, moodiness, sensitivity etc.). Some of it might be GT issues but it seems that 2e kids have more of them. They are hit from both sides. I do see how you might not want to limit the discussion though.

[onaclairadeluna]

But I still stand by what I said: if you have a child like this, you will know. There will be no confusion and no doubt about it. You'll know, and you'll think: oh, at last, I'm not alone, there are others out there dealing with kids like mine, I've found a "group" that shares my concerns and my struggles, at long last.

 

I would probably still be lurking if it weren't for you :D

[Guest]

I do see how you might not want to limit the discussion though.

 

Yes, 2e is a convenient shorthand; but I keep thinking about kids that parents have written me about, kids who have crippling anxiety, for instance, which is not an LD per se, which but which definitely impacts their educations in a myriad of ways; kids who are VSLs, who in a world full of academic choices and different curricula that suited their wiring would NOT be considered LD at all, but who currently suffer huge amounts of grief and feelings of failure; kids who have physical disabilities like an inability to speak, and the parents are just worn to shreds figuring out how to deal with this when you're trying to teach someone to read, or later, trying to figure out whether they can internally understand speech rhythms in editing their writing... all kinds of things. I don't know whether or not my dd has, at this moment, actual LDs or not, although she does have much lower stamina than nearly every other kid I know.

 

 

I can see how this complicates things tremendously. But I'd hate for a single one of these people to think, well, my kid isn't gifted, or my kid doesn't have a specific LD, so I guess this grouping wouldn't include us -- even though they have the exact feelings of identification and belonging I've described. We need each other.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Guest

[Tullia]

I think a 2e forum would be wonderful...So that was the long answer the short answer is a resounding YES.

A thoughtful response and constructive suggestions;perhaps others will chime in and help KarenAnne make it happen.

 

...You'll know, and you'll think: oh, at last, I'm not alone, there are others out there dealing with kids like mine, I've found a "group" that shares my concerns and my struggles, at long last.

 

I believe that you have at least the beginnings of a group that will meet a genuine need. Best of luck to you.

 

Martha

[elegantlion]

 

 

I'm truly sorry that some people feel confused and mixed up about it. But the ones who recognize their kids and their issues do not, despite a lack of easily recognizable phrases or labels. 2e comes closest, perhaps, but still doesn't get it quite right because not all the concerns we share include specific academic LDs. "Quirky" is too broad and for some kids far too mild a word. "Mislabeled" assumes a diagnosis. Nonstandard is immediately open to contention.

 

I am open to suggestions from anybody with a kid(s) like this who can think of an inclusive yet exacting and specific phrase.

 

But I still stand by what I said: if you have a child like this, you will know. There will be no confusion and no doubt about it. You'll know, and you'll think: oh, at last, I'm not alone, there are others out there dealing with kids like mine, I've found a "group" that shares my concerns and my struggles, at long last.

 

I don't know how I'd describe my son. He has no official diagnosis, he just learns differently. At least that is how we look at it. I don't know that he is exceptional or gifted or just defiant and exacting. He's kind of grasped onto Einstein and Edison as people he looks up to. He wants to do his own thing and not be bothered with things that have no bearing upon his future. Fortunately I've been able to "sell" him on why things like Latin and reading and history are important.

 

We're starting our 8th year of homeschooling next week. I thought part of this he would outgrow and one day he'd wake up wide eyed and ready to take instruction and write that essay, just like I asked. As I realize he's not, I'm trying to find ways to work with his quirky nature. He's not openly defiant at all, he's very easy going in nature, but he detests anything he considers busy work.

 

He's been keeping me on my toes. I can't simply say we are doing this because page 211 of book X recommends it. I have to know why this is important to learning and translate to his understanding.

 

I also find myself being able to answer fewer curriculum questions. We may use the same materials, but it never looks the same.

 

ETA: I don't know if we fit here or not, we don't seem to fit anywhere, but I'm enjoying the conversation.

Edited August 13, 2011 by elegantlion

[quark]

I can see how this complicates things tremendously. But I'd hate for a single one of these people to think, well, my kid isn't gifted, or my kid doesn't have a specific LD, so I guess this grouping wouldn't include us -- even though they have the exact feelings of identification and belonging I've described. We need each other.

 

I have the exact feelings of identification...minus the 2E, LD, anxiety labels. I have a joyful, love-to-learn, quirky, happy kid without a shred of anxiety. And I suppose that's because I've already identified that radical acceleration and specialization in some areas is what he needs and craves. Would we fit in? :) LOL, it's so difficult to determine these things when you're not meeting each and every person face to face, when you don't have the opportunity to get to know one another IRL isn't it? Would make a very interesting communication/ psychology study some day, our homeschool support forums!

 

The reason I've started hanging out here is that my local support group for completely out-of-the-box, non-neurotypical children has tuned its focus so much on 2E and anxiety that I'm not entirely comfortable with it anymore.

[Guest]

I have the exact feelings of identification...minus the 2E, LD, anxiety labels. I have a joyful, love-to-learn, quirky, happy kid without a shred of anxiety. And I suppose that's because I've already identified that radical acceleration and specialization in some areas is what he needs and craves. Would we fit in? :) LOL, it's so difficult to determine these things when you're not meeting each and every person face to face, when you don't have the opportunity to get to know one another IRL isn't it? Would make a very interesting communication/ psychology study some day, our homeschool support forums!

 

The reason I've started hanging out here is that my local support group for completely out-of-the-box, non-neurotypical children has tuned its focus so much on 2E and anxiety that I'm not entirely comfortable with it anymore.

 

If we get it started you'll probably know pretty quickly whether that or the regular accelerated forum is a better fit for your concerns.

[8filltheheart]

I have the exact feelings of identification...minus the 2E, LD, anxiety labels. I have a joyful, love-to-learn, quirky, happy kid without a shred of anxiety. And I suppose that's because I've already identified that radical acceleration and specialization in some areas is what he needs and craves. Would we fit in? :) LOL, it's so difficult to determine these things when you're not meeting each and every person face to face, when you don't have the opportunity to get to know one another IRL isn't it? Would make a very interesting communication/ psychology study some day, our homeschool support forums!

 

The reason I've started hanging out here is that my local support group for completely out-of-the-box, non-neurotypical children has tuned its focus so much on 2E and anxiety that I'm not entirely comfortable with it anymore.

 

My kids are typically joyful, happy-go lucky, love to learn kids as well. My ds that is 2E never knew he was behind in reading. I actually remember him asking me in shock after eavesdropping on a conversation I had with another adult when he was in 6th grade if he really had been that far behind. My philosophy is to simply meet my kids where they are, where ever that happens to be. However, my goal is to definitely get them to function w/in the norms and standards b/c that is simple economic reality. But.....as far as where they are compared to peers/standards/norms/whatever you want to call it, we simply don't discuss it when they are little. When they are older, it is obvious and they know but it only impacts them when they realize that they may not want to talk to other kids the way that they talk at home b/c eyes glaze over. Simply hanging out and playing basketball is a better philosophy than discussing particle physics. ;)

 

My Aspie does suffer from disabling anxiety. It has nothing to with his ability to learn in a standard classroom. He can barely pay attention and still know everything discussed almost verbatim. His anxiety is from anything that is not 100% the norm or daily routine/expectation. He is starting a pilot program for high-functioning college-ready Aspies next week. The program provides on-site adults while the students take college classes 3 days per week and then provides coping-skill, business manners/etiquette, interviewing skills, time-management training, etc the other 2 days/week. They have employers in the city willing to hire the students as interns so they can learn how to be employees. W/o those same adults being physically present every day in all of those multiple scenarios, our ds would not be able to accomplish the same goals simply b/c there are too many variables being thrown at him simultaneously. He would shut down. He can only deal w/one out of the norm issue at a time and still be able to function.

 

I'm not sure his issues are relevant to anyone except those with intelligent Aspies that suffer from high anxiety and can't cope. His issues are most definitely his.

 

The irony I see in the entire issue is that I do not use labels when deciding on materials or how to teach my kids. I do not attempt to box them into any trait or style. We do what works while I try to help them steer toward the path that will lead them to their own personal best.....whatever that may be. I see the world of options out there and simply figure out how to make connections and make things work. And yet, apparently, they somehow must seem to fit into neat and tidy "standard" boxes. I have certainly never encountered the lids if that is the case. :D

Edited August 12, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[onaclairadeluna]

I have the exact feelings of identification...minus the 2E, LD, anxiety labels. I have a joyful, love-to-learn, quirky, happy kid without a shred of anxiety.

 

Well, I am jealous.

 

Still, you know, in any forum there are posts that are more or less applicable to any person's homeschooling situation. Perhaps there will be many opportunities for you to chime in and other situations where you can sit back and feel happy that you have a well adjusted child.

 

Did I say how jealous I am?:tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

I I so strongly relate to both of you (8fill and Karen) when you discuss your kids that I can't help but thinking that you have so much more in common than what is evident from the discussion.

 

It is w/complete irony that I do actually agree with you. I think her dd is probably a blend between my aspie and my 15 yo physics geek. But, I think the realities of having a single dd with all of those issues vs. being in the middle of a large family that has constant demands in multiple directions impacts our views on how to deal with them. I am thrilled for KA that her dd is able to have her spend the time forming such a unique educational approach. The part that bothers me in these discussions is that if we have children with similar traits/issues and yet have found a way to meet their needs in a completely alternate path than somehow their issues/traits don't really exist.

[quark]

8Fill and onaclairadeluna,

 

I feel so in tune with the two of you. :) Karen Anne and and a number of others too in these boards. I'm glad for this space to express myself.

 

I apologize if I make it sound as if we have no issues at all. We do from time to time. We had one about a year ago that freaked me out completely. I was a wreck for many weeks thinking I was failing my child and he was going to have a tough time fitting into this world. But as with every other unusual things he does, we are coping how we can. We are indeed fortunate that his personality is a joyous one and that the "issues" are still secondary to the cheerfulness inherent in him. All the more reason why I truly respect parents handling anxiety in their kids. I don't know if I could cope with an anxious child as it would break my heart. We had a glimmer of it before we began to homeschool. Those were tough days for me. So those of you parenting these children are indeed strong and brave.

 

I guess I should have phrased that earlier post better. There are many parents in my local group dealing with serious 2E issues. My discomfort comes from being one of those not dealing with issues as serious and hence, feeling like a complete moron if I bring my issues up. I mean, theirs sound so much more extreme right? How can I complain about anything I'm facing?

[EKS]

I'll add my vote here too!

[quark]

The irony I see in the entire issue is that I do not use labels when deciding on materials or how to teach my kids. I do not attempt to box them into any trait or style. We do what works while I try to help them steer toward the path that will lead them to their own personal best.....whatever that may be. I see the world of options out there and simply figure out how to make connections and make things work. And yet, apparently, they somehow must seem to fit into neat and tidy "standard" boxes. I have certainly never encountered the lids if that is the case. :D

 

Apologies for the number of posts I've been writing today. I seem to be on 2 extreme modes here...lurk silent mode or post too much mode!

 

I just HAD to agree with this. HAD to! I couldn't have described our situation more accurately. That cute smilie holding the sign wouldn't have been sufficient. :)

[Teachin'Mine]

Karen Anne I think it would be wonderful to have a sub-forum - whatever you think it could be named. :) And if those who relate were to post in supportive ways and address the issues they share in common and share generously and in helpful ways, it would be an amazing resource - not only for the families who have a child like yours, but for anyone interested in learning about and exploring new ideas which may be helpful for their children.

[onaclairadeluna]

And yet, apparently, they somehow must seem to fit into neat and tidy "standard" boxes. I have certainly never encountered the lids if that is the case. :D

 

My son will never be put in a box. He doesn't even desire this. He want's to be weird.

 

Nevertheless, *I* crave fitting in. I breathe a big sigh of relief when I read anything that comes within a mile of my own situation at home.

 

The part that bothers me in these discussions is that if we have children with similar traits/issues and yet have found a way to meet their needs in a completely alternate path than somehow their issues/traits don't really exist.

 

Clearly your sons have issues that exist. It helps me so much to hear about what you are doing with them both. Success stories are awesome.

 

Quark, I am so glad to hear you say that you do have issues. (Well not glad exactly, I hope you know what I mean:)) Upon a bit of thought I realize that most of the time my child is pretty happy go lucky and easy going. I still have that "holding my breath waiting for the next shoe to drop" feeling. Perhaps the anxiety issues are *mine* and not *his*. There is definitely a spectrum both of GT, of LD and of behavioral emotional issues. They are all so intertwined. I often wonder how many of my son's emotional sensitivities are GT issues alone. I used to worry that there was something more going on but as he gets older and the more I treat it as a GT thing the easier it gets. Oh, and the more I remember to have him snack every 2 hours. Seriously. Food.

[Guest]

There are many parents in my local group dealing with serious 2E issues. My discomfort comes from being one of those not dealing with issues as serious and hence, feeling like a complete moron if I bring my issues up. I mean, theirs sound so much more extreme right? How can I complain about anything I'm facing?

 

My own idea is that ANYONE who currently feels that somehow they have to censor, or artificially separate, aspects of their experiences with their kids in order to post on any forum as they are now constituted -- or who posts but feels misunderstood or criticized by those who just do not get what it's like to deal with kids like this -- would perhaps welcome a separate sub-forum as a safe place to freely discuss what they often repress, censor, or can only partially discuss as things are currently set up. I'm trying to connect with other people who share these feelings.

[quark]

My own idea is that ANYONE who currently feels that somehow they have to censor, or artificially separate, aspects of their experiences with their kids in order to post on any forum as they are now constituted -- or who posts but feels misunderstood or criticized by those who just do not get what it's like to deal with kids like this -- would perhaps welcome a separate sub-forum as a safe place to freely discuss what they often repress, censor, or can only partially discuss as things are currently set up. I'm trying to connect with other people who share these feelings.

 

I appreciate how carefully you are choosing your words KarenAnne.

 

I sometimes wonder if I should create a specialized curriculum for my son on descriptive language: "How would you express yourself in a situation where you could only use written words and the person reading them lived 1000s of miles away? How would you ensure what you had to say could be understood exactly as you meant it with no room for misunderstanding? Note #1: people cannot read your mind! Note #2: learn to do this using less than 200 words!"

 

:lol:

 

Please count me as interested in the subforum!

[swimmermom3]

I have 8.

 

I get your point, on one hand, but on another, I find myself shaken to the core these days. My dh and I have three degrees and two professional licenses between the two of us. My two oldest children struggle with certain aspects of school. Dh and I struggle to understand them and the whole situation. I always thought they were "normal," now I am wondering if there were some things that we missed because variations simply were not on our personal radars.

 

Yes, Karen, I feel very alone most days as our walk the past few years has taken us so far out of mainstream schooling which is where we started. Perhaps, that is the difference. I don't know, except that I am feeling a little worn around the edges. Racking my brain day and night trying to find a way to make a difference is exhausting.

[Corraleno]

I think a subforum for parents who are trying to adapt a classical education to kids who learn in nonstandard ways (whether that's 2E, VSL, ADD, Aspie, or whatever) would be very useful. The Special Needs board is primarily about the LDs themselves (identifying, diagnosing, accommodating), and the Accelerated board seems to be mostly about younger kids (book recommendations for a 2nd grader who reads at a HS level, whether to go straight to algebra in 4th grade or explore other topics first and save algebra for 6th, etc.). We tried a social group, but there is a strict character limit on social group posts that makes it difficult to have real discussions.

 

The recently-created Logic Stage subforum has been very useful and very well-received, and I think a subforum on classical education for nontraditional learners would be, too. It seems like there are quite a few people here who mostly lurk and rarely post, except on threads of this nature, and there are others who almost never post but still PM their thanks for these sorts of discussions. I think if there were a specific subforum for discussing these issues, perhaps more people would feel free to ask questions and join the discussion.

 

I would hate for anyone who wants to give their kids a classical education to give up in despair because they know their kid(s) don't/won't/can't learn the traditional way and they don't have a clue how to adapt it. I also think it's reassuring for people to see that there are moms like Nan and JennW, whose kids' educations have been both classical and nontraditional, and who have successfully graduated these kids and sent them off to college. It would be great to have that kind of information in one place, where people could ask questions and know that others "get" what they're talking about.

 

Jackie

[Colleen in NS]

KarenAnne, does my friend's son fit the criteria you were looking for? I thought I understood "spectrum" properly in the OP, but now I'm lost again.

[Leonor]

I would welcome said subforum.

 

I have been here for years because I have a ds who is a rising senior. Getting ready for college applications.

However, I have a ds entering high school. For that child, I spend time on this board and the special needs board. Sometimes I feel that I don't fit in either. However, I find threads that I can relate to and are helpful. Such as, the one where Karenanne talked about using films and documentaries. 8FilltheHeart inspires me with all the different approaches for so many children. Sometimes, it may be ideas I know or implement but you need the encouragement to keep doing so. Sometimes, I have thought about it but have not done it.

 

I will say that both Karenanne and 8FilltheHeart inspire me and give me hope.

As a previous poster said, I think you two have more in common than you can see. At least what you both care enough to share and post and some of us learn from both of you.:grouphug:

[Colleen in NS]

I get your point, on one hand, but on another, I find myself shaken to the core these days. My dh and I have three degrees and two professional licenses between the two of us. My two oldest children struggle with certain aspects of school. Dh and I struggle to understand them and the whole situation. I always thought they were "normal," now I am wondering if there were some things that we missed because variations simply were not on our personal radars.

 

Yes, Karen, I feel very alone most days as our walk the past few years has taken us so far out of mainstream schooling which is where we started. Perhaps, that is the difference. I don't know, except that I am feeling a little worn around the edges. Racking my brain day and night trying to find a way to make a difference is exhausting.

 

Hi Lisa,

 

If I am recalling correctly from several years ago, you might want to do a search for 8's posts on the SN board. I remember reading some of her posts there and thinking, "Is this the same Mom who talks so easily on the other boards about how to teach this and that??" I believe she really does KNOW (in the sense that KA seems to speak of) what is being discussed in these types of threads. It's just that she deals with them differently than KA does. And 8 has a solid educational background, too.

 

:grouphug:

[Colleen in NS]

I think a subforum for parents who are trying to adapt a classical education to kids who learn in nonstandard ways (whether that's 2E, VSL, ADD, Aspie, or whatever) would be very useful. The Special Needs board is primarily about the LDs themselves (identifying, diagnosing, accommodating), and the Accelerated board seems to be mostly about younger kids (book recommendations for a 2nd grader who reads at a HS level, whether to go straight to algebra in 4th grade or explore other topics first and save algebra for 6th, etc.). We tried a social group, but there is a strict character limit on social group posts that makes it difficult to have real discussions.

 

The recently-created Logic Stage subforum has been very useful and very well-received, and I think a subforum on classical education for nontraditional learners would be, too. It seems like there are quite a few people here who mostly lurk and rarely post, except on threads of this nature, and there are others who almost never post but still PM their thanks for these sorts of discussions. I think if there were a specific subforum for discussing these issues, perhaps more people would feel free to ask questions and join the discussion.

 

I would hate for anyone who wants to give their kids a classical education to give up in despair because they know their kid(s) don't/won't/can't learn the traditional way and they don't have a clue how to adapt it. I also think it's reassuring for people to see that there are moms like Nan and JennW, whose kids' educations have been both classical and nontraditional, and who have successfully graduated these kids and sent them off to college. It would be great to have that kind of information in one place, where people could ask questions and know that others "get" what they're talking about.

 

Jackie

 

I'm thinking that a sub-forum might end up being just as frustrating for some of you, because it's still an open forum, and posts would still be open to interpretation. A board description might still be interpreted in a way not meant by whoever suggested it. I mean, look at the General Board description and compare it to the actual posts there that are usually WAY off course!:lol:

 

What about a closed social group, where members have to be approved by you and KarenAnne? Or what about posting a notice on the networking board, for an e-mail loop, if you feel the discussions are too long for the character limit in the social groups? Or networking board link to a subject-to-approval yahoo group?

 

As an aside, I have for many years been helped by the posts of JennW and Nan in Mass.

[Niffercoo]

I thought perhaps we fit into this category but I'm not so sure now. My son is an Aspie but he's actually stronger in social skills than academics. At least, he's stronger one-on-one. And he's very reliable and dependable. If I ask him to do something, he will do it. Without a doubt, every single time. He loves small children and he is in a rock band.

 

When it comes to academics, I can't figure out why he struggles. He has been tested numerous times and we get lots of "this is a child with processing issues" but we can't figure out that they are because he doesn't test with the standard results of the different processing problems.

 

I love to read what Jenn did for her son and how he got into college with a nontraditional method. But I don't see that happening for my son, if I could even get my brain wrapped around how to DO it. Since Austin has begun 9th grade last week, I have not slept all night long once. I am a wreck. And I feel completely alone. Nobody has a kid like mine and they can't help me figure out what to do. All he wants to do is have a good job so he can move out and live on his own (well, right now he also wants his band to have a record deal and go on tour LOL). Right now he thinks he wants to go to community college and become a mechanic. So that's what I'm trying to do... get him enough math and science so he can go to community/tech college.

 

On a side note, I do have a highly resistant child in Riley. I think she is quite intelligent, but it's hard to see. She took 2.5 hours to do a Horizons Pre-Algebra lesson earlier this week. She argues, screams, questions, debates EVERY. LITTLE. THING. She started Apologia General Science yesterday and she spent an hour telling me how absurd Jay Wile's definition of science is and how she thinks it's insulting to people who enjoy science but who don't come up with laws about the natural world as a result. I suggested that she write her own science textbooks and make lots of money for her family. If we had the money, she would be in private school. She consumes all of my mental and emotional energy. Our public schools are not good, so that is not an option.

 

I'm not sure there would be a sub-group that fits me! LOL

[Niffercoo]

Hi Lisa,

 

If I am recalling correctly from several years ago, you might want to do a search for 8's posts on the SN board. I remember reading some of her posts there and thinking, "Is this the same Mom who talks so easily on the other boards about how to teach this and that??" I believe she really does KNOW (in the sense that KA seems to speak of) what is being discussed in these types of threads. It's just that she deals with them differently than KA does. And 8 has a solid educational background, too.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

[peacefully]

.

[Guest]

 

I'm not sure there would be a sub-group that fits me! LOL

 

This is exactly the type of thing I had in mind when I first started this, and many other threads.

[Corraleno]

What about a closed social group, where members have to be approved by you and KarenAnne? Or what about posting a notice on the networking board, for an e-mail loop, if you feel the discussions are too long for the character limit in the social groups? Or networking board link to a subject-to-approval yahoo group?

I don't have any desire to restrict discussion to only a certain group of "approved" people. :confused:

 

Yahoo groups are much clunkier than boards like this, and it's hard to have real-time conversations. An email loop wouldn't create a body of searchable information available to those who join later. A WTM subforum would provide a place for those who want to adapt a WTM education to nontraditional learners to discuss how to do that. There are separate boards for afterschooling WTMers and bilingual WTMers, so why not a board for WTMers with nontraditional learners?

 

Jackie

[Guest]

Since Austin has begun 9th grade last week, I have not slept all night long once. I am a wreck. And I feel completely alone. Nobody has a kid like mine and they can't help me figure out what to do.

 

This quote keeps coming back to me. :grouphug::grouphug: The sub-forum idea would, I hope, help people feel less alone; I think many of us understand that the kinds of kids we are talking about are so perplexing, can even so defy 2e truisms, are so difficult to predict and teach, that one thing we could offer each other would simply be understanding of the level of difficulty involved.

 

Of course I hope the sub-forum would also be a place to share approaches and resources, but I have found in the PMs I have gotten on this and past threads that for some people, simply sharing their quandaries is a profound relief. I'd like to get to know some of these kids, and their moms, better, in more detail, and to feel that here is a place where people know and (virtually) love my dd for what she is, as well as "getting" just what an enormous struggle it is sometimes just to get through a day.

[Colleen in NS]

I don't think anyone who is wanting a subforum is asking for this level of exclusivity. It's not that we only want the perspectives of a certain group of people, but rather a dedicated subforum might encourage posters to have a heightened level of sensitivity to the type of discussions that are happening there. I can't imagine anyone from the K-8 forum coming to SN forum to recommend following a strict classical education model without adaptations. There's an understanding that the posters in that forum are looking for alternatives to the standard model, sometimes radical alternatives. Hopefully, a subform for 2E/VSL/right-brained/ADD/spectrum learners would elicit a similar level of sensitivity. The discussions there could focus on finding support for families with similar needs and exploring resources that would best serve those type of students, which are really not quite the same as SN or accelerated learners. Truly.

 

I completely agree with and try to practice what you said about sensitivity and adaptations. I can't even imagine *within* the K-8 board (or any other board) that people would push strict methods without adaptation, and get away with it. Homeschooling is all about adaptation. And I, too, hope that people who are desperate and looking for help will either post or p.m. people whose posts resonate with them. I don't believe those people are looking for exclusivity.

[Colleen in NS]

I don't have any desire to restrict discussion to only a certain group of "approved" people. :confused:

 

I said that as a way of helping you create the safe haven that I think you two are looking for, since it appears to have been a struggle to find it on the forums; which by nature are open, and where sometimes ideas are examined from several angles.

[Corraleno]

It's not about looking for a "safe haven"; it's about being able to ask questions and have discussions without having to provide a lengthy preamble of explanation and justification.

 

If a parent of a profoundly gifted child posts on the K8 board asking about a 5th grade history curriculum for a 4 yo, 20 people will tell her to back off and chill out and just make mud pies; to get any information, she'll need to "prove" that her child really does need it and can handle it, that he taught himself to read at 3 and currently reads on a 5th grade level, that he's been begging to learn history, etc. On the Accelerated board, the same parent can say "What's a good history program for a PG 4 yo reading at a 5th grade level?" and she'll get the answers she's looking for.

 

It would be nice for parents of VSLs, for example, to be able to discuss why interest-led, whole-to-part learning is often more effective with these kids, without having to answer the inevitable warnings that interest-led learning equals coddling, that kids who are allowed to study what they want will choose fluff, will never get out of their comfort zones, won't be able to handle hard work, etc. It would be nice to be able to discuss whether taking a "better late than early" approach with some of these kids might be more effective, without fending off warnings about "lack of standard output" and kids not being prepared for college. It would be nice to be able to discuss alternative approaches to providing a classical education without being challenged to justify it by proving that our kids truly can't do things the normal way and therefore require an alternative approach — because if they're remotely capable of "normal" work, then they should be forced to just suck it up and do it.

 

A subforum on adapting classical methods for "differently wired" kids (especially at the Logic and Rhetoric levels) would spare parents of these kids from constantly having to explain themselves and justify what they do, just as the Special Needs and Accelerated boards do. And presumably it would spare those who find alternative approaches "antithetical to classical methods" (as one poster recently put it) from having such discussions clutter up the main HS board.

 

Jackie

[8filltheheart]

I thought perhaps we fit into this category but I'm not so sure now. My son is an Aspie but he's actually stronger in social skills than academics. At least, he's stronger one-on-one. And he's very reliable and dependable. If I ask him to do something, he will do it. Without a doubt, every single time. He loves small children and he is in a rock band.

 

When it comes to academics, I can't figure out why he struggles. He has been tested numerous times and we get lots of "this is a child with processing issues" but we can't figure out that they are because he doesn't test with the standard results of the different processing problems.

 

I love to read what Jenn did for her son and how he got into college with a nontraditional method. But I don't see that happening for my son, if I could even get my brain wrapped around how to DO it. Since Austin has begun 9th grade last week, I have not slept all night long once. I am a wreck. And I feel completely alone. Nobody has a kid like mine and they can't help me figure out what to do. All he wants to do is have a good job so he can move out and live on his own (well, right now he also wants his band to have a record deal and go on tour LOL). Right now he thinks he wants to go to community college and become a mechanic. So that's what I'm trying to do... get him enough math and science so he can go to community/tech college.

 

On a side note, I do have a highly resistant child in Riley. I think she is quite intelligent, but it's hard to see. She took 2.5 hours to do a Horizons Pre-Algebra lesson earlier this week. She argues, screams, questions, debates EVERY. LITTLE. THING. She started Apologia General Science yesterday and she spent an hour telling me how absurd Jay Wile's definition of science is and how she thinks it's insulting to people who enjoy science but who don't come up with laws about the natural world as a result. I suggested that she write her own science textbooks and make lots of money for her family. If we had the money, she would be in private school. She consumes all of my mental and emotional energy. Our public schools are not good, so that is not an option.

 

I'm not sure there would be a sub-group that fits me! LOL

 

:grouphug: Helping them find their path to adulthood when that path is not what you were prepared for when you were holding that sweet little baby in your arms is incredibly difficult. When that path is complicated by disabilities, it is beyond overwhelming.

 

To encourage you, I think the fact that he is in a band is amazing! I wish I could turn back the clock and re-do high school with my Aspie and have a focus on training him for a trade. But, you know what, he was resistant to the idea then (he knew his brother was off at uni and doing well and he was smarter than his brother). He is now actually asking to pursue a trade and it is his idea. Sometimes we have to accept that we don't have all the answers for them and that not all of the answers have to be found by age 14. He is a much different person at 19 than he was then.

 

Don't think you have to know the future. Just keep doing the best you can for him and if mistakes are made now, they are not permanent. Course work can be taken later and things can be re-focused.

 

Oh.......and my oldest dd detested Jay Wiles so much when she was reading his general science book that she made me sit down and read it with her. After a few days, I conceded. She was right. We haven't used Apologia since. ;)

[Colleen in NS]

It's not about looking for a "safe haven"

 

 

KarenAnne seems to think so, and thus my suggestion.

 

ANYONE who currently feels ...would perhaps welcome a separate sub-forum as a safe place

[swimmermom3]

Hi Lisa,

 

If I am recalling correctly from several years ago, you might want to do a search for 8's posts on the SN board. I remember reading some of her posts there and thinking, "Is this the same Mom who talks so easily on the other boards about how to teach this and that??" I believe she really does KNOW (in the sense that KA seems to speak of) what is being discussed in these types of threads. It's just that she deals with them differently than KA does. And 8 has a solid educational background, too.

 

:grouphug:

 

Oh. Colleen, I think you misunderstood on this one or perhaps I didn't phrase my response very carefully. I have the utmost respect for both 8FilltheHeart and KarenAnne's knowledge, experience, and ideas. I have borrowed heavily from both of them and owe them both a debt of gratitude for different reasons. Because I respect them both, I find these threads to be difficult to read sometimes. Perhaps because I don't think they are nearly that far apart in their goals or approaches. I am also very tired because I am trying to fix yet another academic problem and my mind is fresh out of ideas and of course, I have no clue if I am doing the right thing.

 

KarenAnne, I went back and read your second post and I don't think I would fit in that type of subforum. We are out of cat food so I had better stop here while I am behind.

[Guest]

It's not about looking for a "safe haven"; it's about being able to ask questions and have discussions without having to provide a lengthy preamble of explanation and justification.

 

 

This is what I was getting at, although you put it much more precisely, Jackie: safe from having to constantly, constantly explain, defend, and justify myself, my approaches, my thoughts to people who don't seem to understand what I'm saying but continually criticize or question it anyway.

 

Michele one l and I have been batting the idea of a sub-forum around, and it was actually she who first used the phrase "safe place" and indeed has used it herself elsewhere on the boards (without it becoming an issue). I picked it up from her and brought it to this thread, which perhaps was not the best idea.

 

A safe haven used in this sense and in this context does not mean a hide-away or an exclusive little group; it means freedom from becoming tangled up in the need to defend and justify one's self.

[Corraleno]

KarenAnne seems to think so, and thus my suggestion.

I was speaking for myself. :)

 

I enjoy discussions like the depth-vs-breadth thread, or the recent thread on VSLs (before it went downhill and fell apart), but I'm not (personally) looking for advice or support or a "safe haven." I've found a method and approach that is working really really well with my DS — I have a rising 7th grader who, 3 years ago, hated school, had to be bribed to read a Magic Treehouse book, and could barely do 3rd grade math. He now reads voraciously, at least 500 pages/wk (he's currently devouring Chronicles of Prydain), he learned all of English grammar in one intensive 4 wk online class this summer, he's doing Athenaze Greek (his choice), his other courses for next year include AoPS math, LLfLOTR, hands-on/inquiry-based physics, a 3rd year (!) of ancient history, programming, robotics, and art. He's currently working on a 10-day paleo dig with professors and grad students. He was looking through a copy of Euclid's Elements (in English) last week and asked if he could use it — in Greek — when he gets to Geometry. So I don't really worry about whether my homeschool is "rigorous enough" or "classical enough" or whether DS will have any trouble getting into college.

 

But I know there are a lot of people here who do worry, people with kids like DS who haven't figured them out yet, people who PM me and others who post in these threads saying that they're afraid to post but really appreciate the discussion. That's why I think a subforum would be a good idea.

 

Jackie