Wondering...

[Colleen in NS]

Even on these forums, I sometimes feel that I will scream if someone else tells me to just listen to SWB's audios about writing and how I just need to follow her 12-year plan for writing and everything will be just fine in the end.

 

Do you realize that these forums are owned by SWB? And that it would be perfectly normal for a poster to offer up those suggestions if a poster thought it might help the described situation? Esp. for kids in the elementary stages (correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your oldest 6?)? But it certainly doesn't mean you are obligated to take those suggestions or agree with the audio content. But it IS normal on this site to recommend them.

 

Have many people told you to listen to those audios? I checked on the K-8 board, and I saw where one person mildly suggested it to you a few months ago, I'm assuming because (when I read it) it seemed to fit your situation. But I'm not seeing why you say "if someone else tells me."

 

I could understand your above comment if those suggestions had been pushed at you if you had made clear those were not what you were looking for. But I couldn't find anything that would indicate that.

 

What is she using for math?

 

 

Jackie had some wonderful posts on that thread you would probably find enlightening and which would confirm what you're thinking about your dd.

 

Regarding math... I wouldn't make your DD memorize math facts out of context.

 

 

I think your son will surprise you. Let the reins out a little at a time if that makes you feel more comfortable, but it's actually quite pleasant out here, outside the box.

 

KarenAnne and Jackie, do you realize that you are giving out advice about children who are much younger than high school, on the high school forum?

 

the high school boards revolve around a particular model of competitiveness that is definitely related to "what other kids from good schools are going to be doing or having on their transcripts."

 

I completely disagree with this statement. Furthermore, to me, it sounds so judgmental towards every other participant now and in the past on the high school board. I suggest you go back and read through past threads. And the board description. Nothing in the board description indicates to me that the boards are for revolving around models of competitiveness.

 

I don't want to even go into this until there's a sub-forum, because I can just imagine what kinds of responses would pop up otherwise.

 

Why even say this here, if this place isn't the place in which you want to talk? To me, this paints the high school board participants in a negative light. And besides, how would you stop others from posting different opinions from yours, on a sub-forum you are hoping for?

 

I spent much of my first year on the boards feeling like something was terribly wrong with me. No one's experiences seemed to be anything like my own. It was worse on the high school board than on other forums. I felt like an alien, truly....

 

It would be lovely not to have to go through so much stumbling, so much isolation, so much anxiety, so much criticism, to find a place where everyone speaks that language. How many of us have hung out on the boards for years and are just now saying, "Oh, there are other people who understand"?

 

Have you read this part of the board rules? "Threads about how the boards should be run differently...should be posted on...someone else's board. "

 

This entire website is provided to thousands of us, FOR FREE. This thread is sounding more and more critical of this gift to us homeschoolers.

[Corraleno]

How long can I let her go like this without feeling constrained to rope her back into something that resembles conventional schooling?

As long as she wants. ;)

 

You have a kid who's interested in advanced ideas and more than willing to tackle challenging and complex material; why would that not count as "school"? Why should your DD's approach to science seem any less valid than the "conventional" approach of slogging through a written-by-committee textbook padded with pointless stock photography, endless sidebars of "Connections in Your Community," vocabulary lists, and key points conveniently broken down and prehighlighted for the student to memorize for the chapter test (after which they're free to purge the information from their brains)?

 

Whole-to-part, visual/spatial learners tend to delight in finding patterns; IME that's one of the most powerful tools in their "thinking kit" and one of the main ways they categorize information and make connections. One of the cool things about studying complexity/emergence/chaos theory is that it shows you how the same patterns can be found or modeled in all systems: mathematics, physics, biology, economics, epidemiology, meteorology — the list is endless. It's all about patterns and it's about as "big picture" as you can get — what better starting place could you find for a whole-to-part learner?

 

Jackie

[peacefully]

.

[Corraleno]

I could understand your above comment if those suggestions had been pushed at you if you had made clear those were not what you were looking for. But I couldn't find anything that would indicate that.

Colleen, I'm not sure why you feel the need to parse everyone's posts so closely, or research someone's posting history to determine whether you feel their feelings are justified. Can't a person just vent for one second, in one sentence, without being asked to prove, by posting a list of every time someone said that to her, that she has a right to her feelings??? She didn't insult SWB in any way; she just said that one component of SWB's program doesn't work for her kid.

 

KarenAnne and Jackie, do you realize that you are giving out advice about children who are much younger than high school, on the high school forum?

Of course I do. My own kids are rising 4th & 7th graders, but my DS is at a HS level in some areas, so this board is more useful for some things. And this thread happened to be posted on this board, and therefore people who are reading this thread and finding it relevant to their kids are asking questions here. If you find that intolerable for some reason, perhaps you should PM a mod and inform them that people who don't have HS kids are posting on the HS board.

 

Colleen, the whole point of this thread is that basically there is no "appropriate place" on these boards to have these kinds of conversations, which span a wide range of ages, issues, and approaches. That is exactly why people are asking for a subforum.

 

Jackie

[peacefully]

.

[Joan in GE]

First - we can certainly all agree that homeschooling is potentially the best place for all the kinds of children discussed in this thread.

 

And, if the SWB doesn't mind footing the bill for another sub-forum and the admin/tech support it would involve, I don't object.

 

Some points and questions about some posts...

 

Adding in a 'yes' vote, both for the sake of those who want this type of space, and also because I would find this type of sub-forum useful, even though my kids is not so differently wired kid as to completely preclude using traditional methods. I'm deeply interested in the ways people adapt classical methods, period, regardless of whether the reason is brain wiring or wanting to be more interest/child-led. Sometimes I think the latter term is a dirty word on this board. :confused:

Strange, isn't it? :001_huh:

 

But Jackie, it seems like lots of people on this board do interest/child-led studies - the question is the matter of degree, and the subjects where this is done. Some might give free reign in all or some of the non-core studies and others give eg. free-reign in one of the cores... so I don't think it is a "dirty word". Just as people corrected me about "rigorous/challenging" studies...People were doing "rigorous" just not in all subjects (myself included) and people's definition of "rigorous" varied greatly, as would probably people's definition of "child-led".

 

I'm really out of the loop of defining homeschooling approaches over here... but it seems that the number of people who do "only"/100% child-led studies would tend to fall under "unschooling".

 

Understand that this next part is related to "labels", not about the problems of discussing how to meet the educational needs of your children on this forum.....So I am confused...is the difference between your (and others who do the same thing) approach and "unschooling" that you take the child to the bookstore and "tell" her to choose (for KA)? and for Jackie, I can see that what you were doing before wasn't unschooling, but if the education is now totally "child-led", whether it is due to learning needs or a philosophy of education, how does it differ from "unschooling"? - or would you say "unschooled due to 2e, VSL, or whatever the label of the learning need/style was" vs "unschooled due to philosophy of learning"? In reality - what is the difference on a day-to-day basis?

 

I took dd to the bookstore this past summer and told her to choose books for "school."

 

I can tell you that what worked for my DS for grammar was exactly the opposite of what almost everyone else on the board would say to do. I'm convinced that, for him, (1) waiting until he has an interest in something, or at least a reason for studying it; (2) waiting until he's cognitively ready to take in the whole thing, instead of learning bits at a time; and (3) presenting it in an interesting, engaging, visual way, is about 1000 times more effective than trying to build up skills piece by piece, year by year.

 

I do think that the discussions on the previous threads about similar topics have been important in fleshing out ideas and while some might say they "disintegrated", the questions and positions of various posters did help lurkers understand posters pov better than if just one "side" of the coin was presented.

 

There's a Power Point presentation on the Miller/Levine Biology site about "using controversy to teach"...for me, I read controversy to learn...so please don't take offense about these questions.

 

Curious in Geneva,

Joan

[Guest]

Understand that this next part is related to "labels", not about the problems of discussing how to meet the educational needs of your children on this forum.....So I am confused...is the difference between your (and others who do the same thing) approach and "unschooling" that you take the child to the bookstore and "tell" her to choose (for KA)? and for Jackie, I can see that what you were doing before wasn't unschooling, but if the education is now totally "child-led", whether it is due to learning needs or a philosophy of education, how does it differ from "unschooling"? - or would you say "unschooled due to 2e, VSL, or whatever the label of the learning need/style was" vs "unschooled due to philosophy of learning"? In reality - what is the difference on a day-to-day basis?

 

 

This is the kind of question that would be a delight to discuss on a dedicated sub-forum, where discussing these kinds of issue would not lead, as they have more than once in the past, to accusations of coddling, misguidedness, inappropriate posts for a given board, laziness, discipline, and/or "dangerous" ideas: more than once. Many times over.

 

It would be a pleasure to elaborate and work out ideas in an environment where it's understood we NEED to have these kinds of discussions because of the unique and contradictory nature of our kids, not because we're interested in unschooling or radical ideas for their own sake (although some people might be).

 

They're great questions, but as Jackie and I, Julie, and others have repeated, any number of us are tired of trying to discuss them on a board where criticism -- due to lack of understanding of the nature of the kids we're dealing with -- rather than support for exploration of what might work is the dominant nature of responses.

 

I certainly don't consider dd unschooled; but I do think that she herself needs to have a compelling reason or interest to engage the particular kind of mind she has in the necessary work. Her interest in Don Quixote came about not because I said, "Pick from the classics in this section only," but because wanted to nudge her out of her almost total preference for science fiction and fantasy. We'd had this discussion before we went to the bookstore. She had read references in the fantasy novels and in The Three Musketeers, which she was also reading for fun, to Don Quixote and was curious. The Picture of Dorian Gray interested her because she'd already read several of Wilde's plays, for fun, because she loves drama. We saw a musical version of Emma on stage at our local theater last year, which led her to Austen's book.

 

This kind of chain, where a reference or a performance or a British comedy show leads her backwards to where most people START, with a list of required classics, is typical of how dd works -- it's always been typical of her. What I decided to do is, as Jackie put it a few posts back, not fight it, but go with it and see where it led.

 

What would I do if it didn't lead to these particular places? Actually, I have no idea. This is something else I'd love to discuss in a sub-forum.

 

And this is a point at which I censor my thoughts and further questions/thoughts about dd on the regular board, due to past experiences.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Guest

[Matryoshka]

I have to say that I love reading these threads even if I don't have much to add - I think my kids are fairly neurotypical. But reading what you guys are up to reminds me what I imagined homeschooling could be like when they were younger. I feel like we've ended up much more "in-the-box" than I'd ever intended! :001_huh:

 

What you describe is what I think I thought "unschooling" was (or could be) when I first heard of it, before I went to an unschooling conference and ran screaming in the other direction. I have always thought that doing unschooling "right" (or perhaps better said "interest-led education") would be way more work than directed education - but IRL, virtually all the unschoolers I know seem more like "non-schoolers" or "almost-no-schoolers" - or the kind that claim you can't do any unschooling at all if you have a math curriculum or even if you insist on their wearing shoes out of the house. That kind of unschooling makes me itch.

 

I don't think a kid has to be VSL or 2e to benefit from at least part of their schooling in this vein. Why couldn't even a kid doing a very traditional, AP-laced high school still get some awesome ideas for an elective or two or more? (even if those whom the sub-forum was mostly for was the kids doing it whole-hog?). I feel like some are setting up a false dichotomy between these types of studies. Maybe a good sub-forum title would be "rigorous unschooling". ;)

 

ETA: Reading a post a bit farther down, I can see that title would be far too easily misconstrued - "rigorous interest-led learning (where the child is not in fact a despot?)" :lol:

Edited August 14, 2011 by matroyshka

[peacefully]

.

[Guest]

As long as she wants. ;)

 

You have a kid who's interested in advanced ideas and more than willing to tackle challenging and complex material; why would that not count as "school"? Why should your DD's approach to science seem any less valid than the "conventional" approach of slogging through a written-by-committee textbook padded with pointless stock photography, endless sidebars of "Connections in Your Community," vocabulary lists, and key points conveniently broken down and prehighlighted for the student to memorize for the chapter test (after which they're free to purge the information from their brains)?

 

Whole-to-part, visual/spatial learners tend to delight in finding patterns; IME that's one of the most powerful tools in their "thinking kit" and one of the main ways they categorize information and make connections. One of the cool things about studying complexity/emergence/chaos theory is that it shows you how the same patterns can be found or modeled in all systems: mathematics, physics, biology, economics, epidemiology, meteorology — the list is endless. It's all about patterns and it's about as "big picture" as you can get — what better starting place could you find for a whole-to-part learner?

 

Jackie

 

Thank you, most fervently. Could you please copy this message and send it to me, oh, maybe five times a day?

[Corraleno]

So I am confused...is the difference between your (and others who do the same thing) approach and "unschooling" that you take the child to the bookstore and "tell" her to choose (for KA)? and for Jackie, I can see that what you were doing before wasn't unschooling, but if the education is now totally "child-led", whether it is due to learning needs or a philosophy of education, how does it differ from "unschooling"? - or would you say "unschooled due to 2e, VSL, or whatever the label of the learning need/style was" vs "unschooled due to philosophy of learning"? In reality - what is the difference on a day-to-day basis?

What I'm doing with DS isn't remotely unschooling. Unschooling means kids get to study what they want, when they want, how they want — including the option not to study anything. My son has to do math, English, foreign language, science, and history. He can choose his math curriculum, he can choose his foreign language, he can choose his science and history topics and what order to do them in, what resources to use, etc. — but he has to do them.

 

His transcript will probably not look that different from a "conventional" transcript. The difference in approach is that I try to capitalize on his interests as they arise, I try to teach skills in context, I don't force him to do things a certain way, or use certain materials, or cover topics in a certain order just because that's what the local PS (or WTM or LCC or any other homeschooling program) does. I've found that with him, "better late than early" definitely applies, which — to parents who don't have kids like this — can look scandalously neglectful: no grammar until 6th grade??? No dictation and copywork??? No writing until 7th or 8th grade??? No math facts memorization???

 

He'll be in 7th grade next year and his schedule will look something like this:

 

Mornings:

Math: AoPS Prealgebra

Foreign Language: Athenaze Greek (his choice; it's challenging for him but he loves it)

English: LLfLotR (heavily tweaked), spelling, typing — all of these are his choice. I haven't pushed spelling with him, but now he's motivated to learn to spell because he wants to write letters and emails to friends and "colleagues" (the PhDs he digs with) and he's thinking of writing a novel.

 

Afternoons:

Physics: TC courses, Bloomfield's nonmajors college text (used as reference not a spine), assorted "living books" and DVDs, and a huge pile of physics kits from Supercharged Science. He'll watch TC's Physics in Your Life for an overview, then he can choose whatever physics kits he wants to do, in whatever order he wants, and add extra reading, research, and other TC courses/lectures.

History: This will be his third year on ancient history. He spent almost the entire first year on Egypt, and spent all of last year on Greece, which is his passion. He still has a couple more TC courses on Greece (after which he will have watched every single Greek course they have), then he'll move to Rome. He has an entire bookcase of resources on ancient history, as well as a big stack of documentaries.

Programming: He'll work his way through Virtual World Design & Creation for Teens, and also wants to learn Maya and 3DStudioMax. This is totally self-directed.

Robotics: Mindstorms. He wants to build a robot that solves Rubik's cubes. Totally self-directed.

Art: He wants to improve his drawing skills, particularly in the area of technical illustration. DH will work with him on this.

Paleontology: He reads this avidly, reads many paleo blogs on a regular basis, and does 2-4 weeks of fieldwork every year.

 

I'm mostly involved in the mornings, with Math, Greek, and English. The afternoon "courses" are generally independent, although we often watch the TC lectures together, and we have lots and lots of discussions.

 

Does that help?

 

Jackie

Edited August 14, 2011 by Corraleno

[Joan in GE]

Thanks for your answers - I have to get to bed but I'll be processing them in the middle of the night.

 

Joan

[Guest]

I have a 2E-ish/VSL-ish question, but for elementary or logic level. Which board would be best to post it on, accelerated or SN? (It would be about brainstorming ideas on both big-picture-first and hard-is-easy/easy-is-hard aspects, and how you might tweak specific curricula - or a WTM approach more generally - for that. I'm thinking about order of lessons, lesson presentation, etc.)

 

Could you post it here, since at the moment this thread is drawing the kind of cross-forum population I hoped a sub-forum will do? Perhaps cross-post by referencing it on both other boards but asking people to come here to post answers?

[Guest]

Whole-to-part, visual/spatial learners tend to delight in finding patterns; IME that's one of the most powerful tools in their "thinking kit" and one of the main ways they categorize information and make connections. One of the cool things about studying complexity/emergence/chaos theory is that it shows you how the same patterns can be found or modeled in all systems: mathematics, physics, biology, economics, epidemiology, meteorology — the list is endless. It's all about patterns and it's about as "big picture" as you can get — what better starting place could you find for a whole-to-part learner?

 

Jackie

 

Okay, Jackie, you've triggered yet another minor epiphany for me here. Pattern-finding is what dd is doing with the way she approaches literature and drama.

 

She reads like crazy and wants to build up a repertoire of plays she's seen, does NOT want to stop and analyze each one individually. Then what happens is when she's re-read, obsessed, re-visioned, talked over, and otherwise internalized those plays, for instance, or those novels, she begins making cross-references of all kinds, finding structural elements they have in common, themes that cross and recur, ways thematic variations get expressed, etc.

 

For instance: after we'd seen a Neil Simon play last fall, she made a comment in passing about how that and another play we'd seen (which I can't remember at the moment) were both about the nuclear family disintegrating and imploding in the 1950s; at the ends of each, she said, only one person was left in the house, but in one play that was a woman and in the other it was a man. We talked for a while, and I remember thinking at the time, I could never have dragged this out of her through a series of pointed questions or calculated remarks. She had to see both plays, think about them and meditate on her own, process without my interference or attempt to guide or shape what aspects of the plays intrigued her -- and then she comes out with something like this.

 

This isn't infrequent; it happens with dd all the time.

 

It's classic, just classic big-picture and pattern-finding; and here I was stuck thinking oh no, she doesn't want to stop and analyze a novel, she'll never learn literary analysis and how embarrassing because that's my professional specialization. Instead, she's getting to EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE, but in her own way.

 

When I'm with her every day and so much of her thought processes are hidden because she's not a kid who thinks in incremental steps or who does anything that remotely resembles the way I think, it's hard to see the overall pattern or design of what she's doing.

[Corraleno]

Could you post it here, since at the moment this thread is drawing the kind of cross-forum population I hoped a sub-forum will do? Perhaps cross-post by referencing it on both other boards but asking people to come here to post answers?

I think it would make more sense to post it on the logic board and link to it from here, rather than the other way around. Otherwise it's likely to be derailed by complaints that it's on the "wrong" board (among other things).

 

Jackie

[Guest]

I think it would make more sense to post it on the logic board and link to it from here, rather than the other way around. Otherwise it's likely to be derailed by complaints that it's on the "wrong" board (among other things).

 

Jackie

 

Oops, I missed the "elementary or logic level" -- that's what comes of reading on the run. Yes, logic board is probably the best bet.

[Corraleno]

She had to see both plays, think about them and meditate on her own, process without my interference or attempt to guide or shape what aspects of the plays intrigued her -- and then she comes out with something like this.

And this is a perfect example of the concept of "emergence," which Goldstein defined as "the arising of novel and coherent structures, patterns and properties during the process of self-organization in complex systems."

 

In VSLs, ideas seem to "self-organize" in interesting and original ways, which is one reason why I think it's important to let them handle the "input" stage in a way that works for them, rather than try to input content with the structure, order, and even connections pre-fabricated and pre-determined. Give them the materials and let them build their own structures — structures which will then be connected with all the other patterns and structures in their heads, and therefore will be used and retained, instead of being like some temporary porta-shed that gets shoved in there, only to disintegrate as soon as it's no longer needed (for a test or an essay).

 

Jackie

[wapiti]

Could you post it here, since at the moment this thread is drawing the kind of cross-forum population I hoped a sub-forum will do? Perhaps cross-post by referencing it on both other boards but asking people to come here to post answers?

 

Oops, I missed the "elementary or logic level" -- that's what comes of reading on the run. Yes, logic board is probably the best bet.

 

After I actually wrote it out, it seemed best to put it on the accelerated board. So, that's where it is. I got tired of trying to edit it - I sound like a crazy person. I'll probably have to add posts to ask about additional angles, LOL, though right now I have to deal with some screaming kids... pardon me...... :)

[5LittleMonkeys]

Hi all! I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest for the last couple of days but hesitated to post. My hesitation lies in not knowing for sure if dd12 would fit in with this group or not. Karen and Jackie, you have both helped me tremendously in the past while I've been trying to figure her out and she seems to be very similar to Jackie's son. However, she is still, in some areas, an enigma to me. I have, through tweaking almost beyond recognition, been able to use traditional programs with her but they don't create that spark that I see when she is allowed to hold the reigns and choose her own path. I would love to step completely outside the traditional norms in grammar, math and writing, however, I lack the confidence.

 

I still struggle with her though, in those areas where I do allow her control. She has amazing plans and wonderful ideas but it is a slippery slope to keep her moving forward in them without pushing to the point of her bristling and loosing interest. She has told me on numerous occasions that if she feels pushed all her thoughts\plans\ideas slip away. She is a procrastinator though, so I find myself stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

Within those core subjects that I'm using traditional programs as my spine I'm finding that they have become easier this year. I think there is more motivation to learn and there is more interest because she is finding that some of the things that she is wanting to do are requiring more knowledge and skills. Math is still our nemesis though. I found TT, which she will do without having panic attacks, but it isn't teaching her what I want her to learn. I must tread very lightly in this area though or I will get total shut down again.

 

Anyway, I will be reading with great interest...probably soaking up far more wisdom than I will be able to offer. I for one would love a sub-forum because, as I mentioned before, I feel we do fit in somewhat.

[8filltheheart]

This is the kind of question that would be a delight to discuss on a dedicated sub-forum, where discussing these kinds of issue would not lead, as they have more than once in the past, to accusations of coddling, misguidedness, inappropriate posts for a given board, laziness, discipline, and/or "dangerous" ideas: more than once. Many times over.

 

It would be a pleasure to elaborate and work out ideas in an environment where it's understood we NEED to have these kinds of discussions because of the unique and contradictory nature of our kids, not because we're interested in unschooling or radical ideas for their own sake (although some people might be).

 

They're great questions, but as Jackie and I, Julie, and others have repeated, any number of us are tired of trying to discuss them on a board where criticism -- due to lack of understanding of the nature of the kids we're dealing with -- rather than support for exploration of what might work is the dominant nature of responses.

 

I certainly don't consider dd unschooled; but I do think that she herself needs to have a compelling reason or interest to engage the particular kind of mind she has in the necessary work. Her interest in Don Quixote came about not because I said, "Pick from the classics in this section only," but because wanted to nudge her out of her almost total preference for science fiction and fantasy. We'd had this discussion before we went to the bookstore. She had read references in the fantasy novels and in The Three Musketeers, which she was also reading for fun, to Don Quixote and was curious. The Picture of Dorian Gray interested her because she'd already read several of Wilde's plays, for fun, because she loves drama. We saw a musical version of Emma on stage at our local theater last year, which led her to Austen's book.

 

This kind of chain, where a reference or a performance or a British comedy show leads her backwards to where most people START, with a list of required classics, is typical of how dd works -- it's always been typical of her. What I decided to do is, as Jackie put it a few posts back, not fight it, but go with it and see where it led.

 

What would I do if it didn't lead to these particular places? Actually, I have no idea. This is something else I'd love to discuss in a sub-forum.

 

And this is a point at which I censor my thoughts and further questions/thoughts about dd on the regular board, due to past experiences.

 

I read the other threads very differently. I don't see people criticizing your or others experiences. I believe that for years Nan's posts have been reflective of a very different philosophy and approach and her posts are very well-respected and admired. People exchange views and experiences and even though they are dissimilar, the conversations flow b/c all views are respected.

 

What I see occurring in these threads is that parents that believe they have kids that learn differently are told that no, they don't. Or that other people don't know what is being described, so the approaches or experiences that they share are not relevant.

 

What are the "criteria" for this new forum? Whose experiences or POV are to be valued or allowed to be shared? Only those that fit your definition of "you will know"? I wonder b/c of how many times I have been told that my kids don't qualify for your descriptions in the various threads. Or how many times I have been told that my teaching methods are "traditional" and therefore not applicable.

 

It is the free flow of multiple views with the understanding that much of what you read will not apply to your situation which makes a forum a valuable resource. I could never implement any of Nan's wonderful ideas or various experiences, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy reading them in amazement. Or I can read something that I think will work and then realize that I can't really make it work in our home after all. Attempting to duplicate anothers approach is a poor solution. Finding our own path that has positive outcomes for our children is optimal. Sometimes that takes a lot of trial and error and a blend of many different avenues.

 

When people post opinions that think are good in forum, others that have experiences beyond the posters may see the suggestion differently. They may see it from an angle that perhaps the OP doesn't see. A fair critique is not the same as criticism. Sharing concerns about an approach is also not a criticism. It opens up dialogue as to the pros and cons of all the various positions.

 

I'm not sure how a sub-forum would actually not have the exact same results.

Edited August 14, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[swimmermom3]

She reads like crazy and wants to build up a repertoire of plays she's seen, does NOT want to stop and analyze each one individually. Then what happens is when she's re-read, obsessed, re-visioned, talked over, and otherwise internalized those plays, for instance, or those novels, she begins making cross-references of all kinds, finding structural elements they have in common, themes that cross and recur, ways thematic variations get expressed, etc.

 

For instance: after we'd seen a Neil Simon play last fall, she made a comment in passing about how that and another play we'd seen (which I can't remember at the moment) were both about the nuclear family disintegrating and imploding in the 1950s; at the ends of each, she said, only one person was left in the house, but in one play that was a woman and in the other it was a man. We talked for a while, and I remember thinking at the time, I could never have dragged this out of her through a series of pointed questions or calculated remarks. She had to see both plays, think about them and meditate on her own, process without my interference or attempt to guide or shape what aspects of the plays intrigued her -- and then she comes out with something like this.

 

This isn't infrequent; it happens with dd all the time.

 

It's classic, just classic big-picture and pattern-finding; and here I was stuck thinking oh no, she doesn't want to stop and analyze a novel, she'll never learn literary analysis and how embarrassing because that's my professional specialization. Instead, she's getting to EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE, but in her own way.

 

When I'm with her every day and so much of her thought processes are hidden because she's not a kid who thinks in incremental steps or who does anything that remotely resembles the way I think, it's hard to see the overall pattern or design of what she's doing.

 

Karen, I feel like a dolt. I have three kids. I honestly don't know what "kinds" of kids they are anymore. When I read what you wrote above, I thought, "Cool." But then I also realized that you could have described how any one of my kids was at one time or another with regards to literature. For the older two, as much as they love to read, the approach that is used in high school to analyze a work into tatters, has left them resistant to guided analysis. They will read and read, listen politely to few odd facts from their mother, read some more, and then on a car trip somewhere, the faucet turns on. Stuff and connections seem to flow from nowhere and I nearly drive the car off the road in amazement. The day Swimmer Dude made his first tentative step towards those lovely type of connections. I wanted to come here and post,

 

Concrete Boy had his first abstract thought today. It is about time.:tongue_smilie:

 

I guess my point is that the gradation between "normal" and "different" is so variable, I still am not sure who you want on the sub-forum. The accelerated and SN forums aren't adequate. I understand that, but where does a child like my oldest fit? Where does someone who is "fine" one day and "completely dysfunctional" the next week fit? There is no level of giftedness here; there is only a child who needs a different way to be instructed. There are several of us here, but it is easier to stay quiet than to explain why the "usual" won't work in this case. You already have had a couple of posters that have showed up because they know the conversation will turn to different methods of teaching and exploring and they're excited, only to back away a few posts later because they aren't sure if they are welcome. Perhaps I am misunderstanding that giftedness is still a requirement?

[Guest]

I guess my point is that the gradation between "normal" and "different" is so variable, I still am not sure who you want on the sub-forum. The accelerated and SN forums aren't adequate. I understand that, but where does a child like my oldest fit? Where does someone who is "fine" one day and "completely dysfunctional" the next week fit? There is no level of giftedness here; there is only a child who needs a different way to be instructed. There are several of us here, but it is easier to stay quiet than to explain why the "usual" won't work in this case. You already have had a couple of posters that have showed up because they know the conversation will turn to different methods of teaching and exploring and they're excited, only to back away a few posts later because they aren't sure if they are welcome. Perhaps I am misunderstanding that giftedness is still a requirement?

 

Lisa, not ten minutes ago I wrote you a long regular e-mail on just this question!

 

Giftedness is one and only one aspect of some of the kinds of complications and contradictions I'm discussing; it's certainly not an ingredient present in every kid I'm thinking about, or that others are discussing. The idea, which I inadequately explained because it's so nebulous and hard to pin down, is that kids you CANNOT reach with incremental, sequential, direct teacher instruction; kids who resist top-down teaching and want to drive their own learning; kids who have neurological issues ranging from dyslexia to the finger agnosia my own dd has to anxiety; kids who are in any way outside the normal everyday variation in motivation, learning style, or the shoe-dragging that all kids display at one time or another.. all these kids require us not only to adapt or modify or make standard recognized accommodations, but to do something else entirely.

 

I would say that if you can't figure out where your child might fit, if he seems to defy all categories and not respond to all the usual kinds of adjustments we ALL make for our kids' individual interests and working habits... that's the kind of dilemma that prompted the discussion between Michele, Jackie, OhElizabeth, Jenn, and a couple of others of us who felt that what we were talking about was being continually misunderstood by those who had no experience of the exponential difficulties these kids can pose.

 

I've worked with kinesthetic learners who couldn't sit down, space-y kids, philosophical rebels, etc. But there is a qualitative as well as a quantitative difference between those kids and the utter confoundment and/or despair -- and at moments, awe -- I feel when confronted with my dd, daily. And this is from a person with a high school teaching credential, a PhD, and over a dozen years of classroom teaching from junior high to grad students, who has gone to lectures on neurology and brain function, participated with dd in research studies, and has the results of a full-scale neuropsych evaluation to light up the way. It's not enough.

 

What I'm trying to establish a potential space free from assumptions that what I'm talking about is just a normal variation, a discipline problem, a learning style that can easily and happily be accommodated with tweaking. There's a fine line to walk between trying to describe a wildly varied lot of kids -- the 2e post onaclairadeluna first posted on the accelerated board and which I re-linked here a while back says no 2e kids are at all alike, and the group I'm potentially talking about have even wider variations -- and making some kind of umbrella designation or shorthand for ease of conversation that runs the risk of being too limiting and making some people feel shut out (which the term 2e apparently has done for you).

 

I have also said more than once that the whole idea of a sub-forum wasn't my idea originally and isn't now my idea alone, so I don't try to respond to every post and make determinations on whether or not someone fits. I'm not the gatekeeper. Other people have other ideas or definitions or understandings, which are equally as important.

 

But still, there is the issue of the fuzzy line on one side of which yes, every kid is different and requires something non-standard, and we all encounter ordinary variations in learning style and personality and motivation. Every kid is different and non-standard on one level, of course. On the other side of that line, not many kids are THIS different.

 

I can't define it for everybody else. My own conception, my own take on my dd, is that if you have one of these kids you'll know. Maybe others have a different understanding, particularly about that nebulous early stage when you are not quite sure what you are dealing with and how far out of the norm it actually is, and can articulate it better than I can. I was at that stage with dd so many years and so many evaluations ago that it all begins to kind of run together in my mind.

[J'etudie]

I think a lot of people fear getting out of the box because they think their kids will make crazy choices that look nothing like "school" — playing video games all day or reading nothing but manga or something. You will often hear that if kids are allowed to follow their interests, they'll choose fluff, they'll stay in their comfort zone and never push themselves, they'll never learn to work hard at boring things, so they won't be prepared for college. My experience has been exactly the opposite.

 

I love to hear how education works for different learners!

[Corraleno]

... a child who needs a different way to be instructed.

IMO, that's exactly who a subforum would be for: kids who need alternative methods of instruction, whether that's due to giftedness, LDs, temperment, learning style, parental preference, or all of the above.

 

Jackie

[Guest]

IMO, that's exactly who a subforum would be for: kids who need alternative methods of instruction, whether that's due to giftedness, LDs, temperment, learning style, parental preference, or all of the above.

 

Jackie

 

This is the concise version of what I tried to say!

 

But I also think it's necessary to distinguish between that NEED, and normal variations/tweaking. Otherwise the distinctive intensity and the level of differentness do fade into "well, all kids are different" and what we're talking about becomes meaningless.

[8filltheheart]

Originally Posted by Corraleno View Post

IMO, that's exactly who a subforum would be for: kids who need alternative methods of instruction, whether that's due to giftedness, LDs, temperment, learning style, parental preference, or all of the above.

Jackie

 

This is the concise version of what I tried to say!

 

But I also think it's necessary to distinguish between that NEED, and normal variations/tweaking. Otherwise the distinctive intensity and the level of differentness do fade into "well, all kids are different" and what we're talking about becomes meaningless.

 

Do I understand correctly that you would want the sub-forum to function under this definition?

 

What constitutes "normal tweaking" vs. I guess "abnormal tweaking"? What is the distinction for "NEED" for "alternative methods of instruction and "distinctive intensity and level of 'differentness'"?

 

If a student uses a textbook for math but not for other subjects, is that "tweaked" enough? If they learn in a standard class but it is delayed until they are interested in the subject, is that "tweaked" to sufficient definition?

[Jane in NC]

Karen, I feel like a dolt. I have three kids. I honestly don't know what "kinds" of kids they are anymore. When I read what you wrote above, I thought, "Cool." But then I also realized that you could have described how any one of my kids was at one time or another with regards to literature. For the older two, as much as they love to read, the approach that is used in high school to analyze a work into tatters, has left them resistant to guided analysis. They will read and read, listen politely to few odd facts from their mother, read some more, and then on a car trip somewhere, the faucet turns on. Stuff and connections seem to flow from nowhere and I nearly drive the car off the road in amazement. The day Swimmer Dude made his first tentative step towards those lovely type of connections. I wanted to come here and post,

 

Concrete Boy had his first abstract thought today. It is about time.:tongue_smilie:

 

For your amusement, I suggest you read this old thread.

 

I still shake my head...

[J'etudie]

Off to read the article.

[SeekingHim77]

8Filltheheart-For what it's worth, I think you're making a lot of sense! :001_smile:

[onaclairadeluna]

Do I understand correctly that you would want the sub-forum to function under this definition?

 

What constitutes "normal tweaking" vs. I guess "abnormal tweaking"? What is the distinction for "NEED" for "alternative methods of instruction and "distinctive intensity and level of 'differentness'"?

 

 

For this reason I think "2e" or "2e and other gifted differentiation" would be simpler.

 

I can tell you right away that what is my daughter is normal tweaking and what I do with my son is abnormal. Don't ask me to rationalize that statement, I can't. I certainly would not like to make those judgments about anyone else.

 

And if it were only me and DD I would probably still visit and get a lot out of a 2e sub-forum since she is also a gt dyslexic. I wouldn't want to be left out just because she is 2e "light".

 

ETA... and I wouldn't want to leave out people who do make WTM style teaching work for their 2e and or highly gifted kids, tweaked or no. (I am going to leave that dangling participle just for fun)

Edited August 15, 2011 by onaclairadeluna

[Tullia]

However, I also see that several people here have noticed the statement of laudable goals only to see those same ideals (apparently) negated several posts later. I think, perhaps, this is because there is still a lot of work that needs to be done in defining your specific goals and how best to achieve them. It is my opinion that some of the goals articulated in this thread may not even be compatible with public forums; perhaps you should consider pursuing them using another medium. I do, however, think that you have one goal which is well suited to these forums.

 

One of the strengths of the classical paradigm is that it assumes that all children are to one degree or another non-normative. Specific labels don't really enter into the equation at that point. That is a freeing thing in that no matter what situation you're dealing with in that one sense everyone starts in the same place. The goal, then, is to teach children and help them enter into wider communication; first with family and peers, but ultimately to take their place as citizens in the wider community. Another freeing aspect of looking at education in this way is that it is not primarily focused on passing tests, gaining scholarships, or attending college. Those may, indeed, be secondary goals--but they need not be part of the mix. However, I think it is important to keep in mind that while classical education is focused in some ways on the child, it is quite different in fundamental ways from child-led paradigms.

 

One of the most fascinating things, to me, about classical education is how readily it has been adapted to different cultures and circumstances. I believe there is one area in which your ideas would seem to mesh perfectly with the overall goals of these forums; to provide a guide a classical education at home. The natural and behavioral sciences as empirical disciplines are relatively new, and I do think there is a place for giving consideration to incorporating modern research into the classical way of doing things. The natural philosophy known in the ancient, classical, and medieval world was far different from modern science. Aristotle's treatment of psychological factors was, at best, rudimentary. A sub-forum dedicated to exploring different teaching methods suited to the child for whom traditional methods don't work would be valuable.

 

However, such a sub-forum would still be a public forum hosted at a site explicitly dedicated to promoting classical education; to persistently ignore or criticize that reality will most likely serve only to limit or even negate your goals. Also, people on the High School Forum tend to be, on average, a wee bit older and more experienced; we ask questions--lots of questions--sometimes really tough questions. It's a form of peer review--kindly meant but rigorous all the same--we do our best to be kind to newbies and people who are experiencing difficulties, but those who admit to an academic background are assumed to know the drill and are expected to be ready to defend their statements. ;)

 

This has been a fascinating thread. I've seen some excellent suggestions, but I've also seen quite a few posts of the same sort that have derailed threads in the past and which I believe are likely to do so in the future. At this point, I'd say is that you have promising idea, but it's one that still needs some work--especially in the areas of defining goals and acknowledging the nature of these forums and public forums in general. Do, please, keep in mind my opinion is probably worth no more than what I'm charging for it. :D

 

Martha

Edited August 15, 2011 by Martha in NM

[8filltheheart]

For this reason I think "2e" or "2e and other gifted differentiation" would be simpler.

 

I can tell you right away that what is my daughter is normal tweaking and what I do with my son is abnormal. Don't ask me to rationalize that statement, I can't. I certainly would not like to make those judgments about anyone else.

 

And if it were only me and DD I would probably still visit and get a lot out of a 2e sub-forum since she is also a gt dyslexic. I wouldn't want to be left out just because she is 2e "light".

 

ETA... and I wouldn't want to leave out people who do make WTM style teaching work for their 2e and or highly gifted kids, tweaked or no. (I am going to leave that dangling participle just for fun)

 

Yet, I have been told that my 2E ds does not fit the "criteria" b/c he is capable of taking AP classes. So, my understanding is that my teaching methods which managed the hurdle of getting from non-reader to solid "standard" AP classes means he isn't really "different." He sees the world in patterns and always has, but I have been told that he doesn't fit the specific VSL model that is being described. It doesn't matter that I didn't teach him multiplication and that he discovered it on his own and attempted to show me that it existed (like he had made unique discoveries....so sweet!) or that I am so clueless about his newest astrophysics theories that he contacted a local astrophysicist about being his mentor, b/c he wanted someone who could understand what he was talking about to share them with. Those things don't matter b/c

 

posted by KarenAnne I thought you said on another thread you had at least one who was going the AP-type route and that this competitive kind of schedule/curriculum suited him totally. I'd count someone like that as a standard kid, by which I mean a kid for whom "the system" or one aspect of it like the Rigor Route truly does work just fine.

 

A kid can be quirky, have unconventional interests, resist "schoolwork," and yet overall -- at least to my way of thinking -- still do well with quite standard curricula and top-down teaching methods. I was like that myself in high school, reading other books under my desk, secretly rebellious, but not a truly gifted kid and overall doing very well within the system.

 

I'm looking for parents whose kids CANNOT function well within any single category, who CANNOT thrive with the kinds of minor tweaks and accommodations to individual differences we all give our kids.

 

and

 

posted by KarenAnne Your kid may need to overcome challenges to perform in an AP class, but apparently he wants to, likes it, and can do it. Some gifted kids cannot and will not, for whatever reasons. Some dyslexic, extreme VSL, or otherwise 2e can struggle through college prep requirements, for instance, but even with standard accommodations, they think they're stupid, they know they can't learn the way other kids do or their teachers expect them to, they don't retain, the material is meaningless to them because standard teaching techniques don't allow them to engage with it in the way they need to, they have nervous breakdowns, they lose all motivation, etc.

 

So, my understanding is that 2E is not the actual distinction. I am truly at a loss as to what it actually is. I have been told none of my kids do. So 2e is out. So is my Aspie that suffers from severe disabling anxiety and has processing speeds in the 1st% even though he is very intelligent. Neither do my ADHD or ADD girls.

 

The clear definition apparently is

 

posted by KarenAnne I have said in previous threads that people who have kids like this WILL KNOW what I mean.

 

but, then, you can be like me and think you actually do, but are informed you are wrong and that you don't.

Edited August 15, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Embassy]

Yet, I have been told that my 2E ds does not fit the "criteria" b/c he is capable of taking AP classes. So, my understanding is that my teaching methods which managed the hurdle of getting from non-reader to solid "standard" AP classes means he isn't really "different."

 

I have a VSL and an auditory whole to parts learner who will both definitely be able to go the AP route. I struggle with the immense task of engagement because it is rare that I can use a curriculum as is. I have to adapt or make up my own, but my kids are doing well. If there is a subforum I hope it will be inclusive towards parents who have children doing well.

[AnitaMcC]

I'm looking for parents whose kids CANNOT function well within any single category, who CANNOT thrive with the kinds of minor tweaks and accommodations to individual differences we all give our kids.

 

We can all to one extent or another define our kids as "different" in some way. This isn't what I'm looking for.

 

I think that my Ds#1 would fit in this. He is gifted, Asperger Syndrome, ADD, and totally does not fit into any category of education. I haven't found even a combination of educational categories that fits for him. So far nothing has worked enough to help him be successful.

 

We have tried so many different routes for him, and tweaked in so many ways, and he so far... he is failing in meeting his own goals. To say I am worried about him is an understatement.

[littleWMN]

Do you realize that these forums are owned by SWB? And that it would be perfectly normal for a poster to offer up those suggestions if a poster thought it might help the described situation? Esp. for kids in the elementary stages (correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your oldest 6?)? But it certainly doesn't mean you are obligated to take those suggestions or agree with the audio content. But it IS normal on this site to recommend them.

 

Have many people told you to listen to those audios? I checked on the K-8 board, and I saw where one person mildly suggested it to you a few months ago, I'm assuming because (when I read it) it seemed to fit your situation. But I'm not seeing why you say "if someone else tells me."

 

I could understand your above comment if those suggestions had been pushed at you if you had made clear those were not what you were looking for. But I couldn't find anything that would indicate that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

KarenAnne and Jackie, do you realize that you are giving out advice about children who are much younger than high school, on the high school forum?

 

 

 

I completely disagree with this statement. Furthermore, to me, it sounds so judgmental towards every other participant now and in the past on the high school board. I suggest you go back and read through past threads. And the board description. Nothing in the board description indicates to me that the boards are for revolving around models of competitiveness.

 

 

 

Why even say this here, if this place isn't the place in which you want to talk? To me, this paints the high school board participants in a negative light. And besides, how would you stop others from posting different opinions from yours, on a sub-forum you are hoping for?

 

 

 

Have you read this part of the board rules? "Threads about how the boards should be run differently...should be posted on...someone else's board. "

 

This entire website is provided to thousands of us, FOR FREE. This thread is sounding more and more critical of this gift to us homeschoolers.

 

Wow. I didn't even know this was on the high school board. I generally hit "new posts" and this came up and I read it. My apologies. :001_huh::confused:

[8filltheheart]

I have a VSL and an auditory whole to parts learner who will both definitely be able to go the AP route. I struggle with the immense task of engagement because it is rare that I can use a curriculum as is. I have to adapt or make up my own, but my kids are doing well. If there is a subforum I hope it will be inclusive towards parents who have children doing well.

 

Be assured that "doing well" is not a disqualifying "criteria" b/c I believe that both Jackie and KarenAnne believe their kids are doing well.

 

However, APs are apparently a definite no-no.

[Colleen in NS]

Wow. I didn't even know this was on the high school board. I generally hit "new posts" and this came up and I read it. My apologies. :001_huh::confused:

 

littleWMN, :grouphug: When I read your posts last night, I perceived that you didn't realize that. KarenAnne and Jackie did, though, and kept giving out advice to people whom this thread attracted, no matter what their children's ages. That's why I directed my question to them, and not you. There is no need for you to apologize. :) You did nothing wrong, and I hope you continue to ask questions and receive help from the variety of forums, social groups, and p.m. capabilities available here.

[littleWMN]

Thanks :grouphug:

[Corraleno]

Wow. I didn't even know this was on the high school board. I generally hit "new posts" and this came up and I read it. My apologies. :001_huh::confused:

No need to apologize — it's not illegal for parents of younger children to join a discussion on the HS board. :rolleyes:

 

When I read your posts last night, I perceived that you didn't realize that. KarenAnne and Jackie did, though, and kept giving out advice to people whom this thread attracted, no matter what their children's ages.

Colleen, neither of my children are HS age, am I not allowed to post here? Swimmermom, ElegantLion, and many many other board members ask questions here on behalf of kids who are not yet in HS — do you plan to admonish them as well? You'd better alert Rosie that she's not allowed to participate in discussions on this board anymore either — her oldest is only 3! Or maybe you could stop trying to enforce rules that don't exist...

 

Jackie

[Free]

What I'm doing with DS isn't remotely unschooling. Unschooling means kids get to study what they want, when they want, how they want — including the option not to study anything. My son has to do math, English, foreign language, science, and history. He can choose his math curriculum, he can choose his foreign language, he can choose his science and history topics and what order to do them in, what resources to use, etc. — but he has to do them.

 

His transcript will probably not look that different from a "conventional" transcript. The difference in approach is that I try to capitalize on his interests as they arise, I try to teach skills in context, I don't force him to do things a certain way, or use certain materials, or cover topics in a certain order just because that's what the local PS (or WTM or LCC or any other homeschooling program) does. I've found that with him, "better late than early" definitely applies, which — to parents who don't have kids like this — can look scandalously neglectful: no grammar until 6th grade??? No dictation and copywork??? No writing until 7th or 8th grade??? No math facts memorization???

 

He'll be in 7th grade next year and his schedule will look something like this:

 

Mornings:

Math: AoPS Prealgebra

Foreign Language: Athenaze Greek (his choice; it's challenging for him but he loves it)

English: LLfLotR (heavily tweaked), spelling, typing — all of these are his choice. I haven't pushed spelling with him, but now he's motivated to learn to spell because he wants to write letters and emails to friends and "colleagues" (the PhDs he digs with) and he's thinking of writing a novel.

 

Afternoons:

Physics: TC courses, Bloomfield's nonmajors college text (used as reference not a spine), assorted "living books" and DVDs, and a huge pile of physics kits from Supercharged Science. He'll watch TC's Physics in Your Life for an overview, then he can choose whatever physics kits he wants to do, in whatever order he wants, and add extra reading, research, and other TC courses/lectures.

History: This will be his third year on ancient history. He spent almost the entire first year on Egypt, and spent all of last year on Greece, which is his passion. He still has a couple more TC courses on Greece (after which he will have watched every single Greek course they have), then he'll move to Rome. He has an entire bookcase of resources on ancient history, as well as a big stack of documentaries.

Programming: He'll work his way through Virtual World Design & Creation for Teens, and also wants to learn Maya and 3DStudioMax. This is totally self-directed.

Robotics: Mindstorms. He wants to build a robot that solves Rubik's cubes. Totally self-directed.

Art: He wants to improve his drawing skills, particularly in the area of technical illustration. DH will work with him on this.

Paleontology: He reads this avidly, reads many paleo blogs on a regular basis, and does 2-4 weeks of fieldwork every year.

 

I'm mostly involved in the mornings, with Math, Greek, and English. The afternoon "courses" are generally independent, although we often watch the TC lectures together, and we have lots and lots of discussions.

 

Does that help?

 

Jackie

 

Jackie, your posts are an inspiration to me because they epitomize what I want in my son's education. But just looking at the amount of work your ds is doing makes my head reel. How do you keep up with him? Do you read every book that he does and watch every TC lecture along with him? And if not then how do you know what he has learnt? Do you require him to produce at least some output?

 

My son is a voracious reader - fiction and non-fiction both. But I cannot really have meaningful discussion on those books unless I have read them myself. He loves to draw and will spend hours making up his own super heroes and drawing and writing comics, but if I ask him to draw the parts of a seed, he will not. He will make powerpoint presentations on topics of his choice, but not if they are assigned by me. So with a son like mine who has no inclination to produce any output on the topics he reads, how would I gauge his understanding unless I read every topic myself to be able to ask pointed questions?

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen, I'm not sure why you feel the need to parse everyone's posts so closely, or research someone's posting history to determine whether you feel their feelings are justified.

 

Colleen, I can't help but feel that you are trying to admonish me for my feelings of frustration. I honestly can't understand why you feel it is necessary to do that. Exactly how should I respond to this post of yours? :confused:

 

No need to apologize — it's not illegal for parents of younger children to join a discussion on the HS board. :rolleyes:

 

Colleen, neither of my children are HS age, am I not allowed to post here? Swimmermom, ElegantLion, and many many other board members ask questions here on behalf of kids who are not yet in HS — do you plan to admonish them as well? You'd better alert Rosie that she's not allowed to participate in discussions on this board anymore either — her oldest is only 3! Or maybe you could stop trying to enforce rules that don't exist...

 

Jackie

 

Jackie and Kelly, the assumptions you both have about the thoughts behind my posts are incorrect.

 

I won't explain that statement; the thread, thoughtfully examined, can speak for itself.

 

(when he was 4yo I would find him sitting on the bathroom floor 45 minutes after having entered and ask him what he was doing: "Oh, I'm just thinking about my day." :lol:).

 

That is so cute!! My son would have said something like that when he was younger, too! He usually is in deep thought about one thing or another.

[Niffercoo]

The more this thread went on, the more I realized that my son is not the sort of kid being discussed. He is definitely not '2e' - he is not gifted. He really, really struggles to learn. He has Aspergers and he has his LDs (that we can't figure out). It seems like most folks have kids who are very gifted, but not in the traditional sense (classroom-type gifted).

[8filltheheart]

The more this thread went on, the more I realized that my son is not the sort of kid being discussed. He is definitely not '2e' - he is not gifted. He really, really struggles to learn. He has Aspergers and he has his LDs (that we can't figure out). It seems like most folks have kids who are very gifted, but not in the traditional sense (classroom-type gifted).

 

:grouphug: The women on this board are very supportive. If you post "struggling with an LD learner" or something to the equivalent in the subject line, I'm sure you would get lots of thought-provoking, encouraging suggestions.

 

I really hope you will post and not be afraid of anyone making hurtful comments. I encourage all parents that are struggling to post. I think posters try very hard to offer suggestions that fit the scenario being described.

 

I think at times the posts on this forum can be intimidating b/c there are a lot of very high achievers on this forum. But, there are also plenty of us that have kids that aren't. I think the idea that there is only one acceptable path promoted here is false. I know that in my family alone I have students that fall into these broad categories: public university, very small private LAC, attempting vocational training through a CC, and high goals/top school wannabe.

 

None of them have followed the same path. I don't post about them equally b/c I am more confident in what I am doing with some of them vs. others. My Aspie leaves me sleepless many nights. I have no answers.....only current possibilities. He is a learn as we go proposition. :( I know lots of the things that haven't worked, but we haven't found the answer to the what actually will.

 

I don't post on the SN boards about him b/c I am pretty sure I am the only one posting that has an adult on that board. So, I definitely feel like I am groping in the dark as to what to do and where to go. The pilot program that has been started here is the first time in a long time I have had hope that he will be able to have any sort of long term independence.

 

A few yrs ago, he was a much different young man. He was violent, angry, and his OCD issues dominated our lives. He terrified his siblings and left them hiding behind furniture or under the table crying when he would have furious outbursts. He threatened to kill himself holding razor blades to his wrists screaming in front of them. He carved his arms. He punched holes in our walls. He kicked holes in our doors. He attacked me. Unfortunately, we had to remove him from our home for 4 1/2 months for them to be able to de-stress b/c it was really impacting one of our younger dd's health. (ETA: I was thinking about how long he was actually gone and it was from Feb to mid-June, so it wasn't quite as long as I originally posted. I also thought I should mention how off guard we were for his change in his behavior when he hit puberty. When he was younger he was perpetually in motion and unable to control his need to move, but he was incredibly tender-hearted and had a heart of gold. When his hormones started raging, it was like a monster had been unleashed inside of him.)

 

I block out most of my memories from when he was 14-16 b/c they are so incredibly painful. I don't like thinking about them and I most definitely don't like sharing them. I am only doing that now to encourage you and others to be willing to share your needs and ask for help b/c I know what it is like to be at your wit's end and have no where to turn. I don't know what I would have done w/o the help of one of the posters on this forum, PattyJoanna. She was my life-line and the one that actually gave us hope and helped us find the place we sent our ds. It was a good experience for him and it provided the opportunity for our home to become a calm, quiet, nurturing environment for our younger children.

 

The women here are not only awesome, they are incredibly knowledgeable. Until you ask, you don't know if anyone will have an answer that might help you or not. Perhaps the vast majority of the responses will be nothing but meaningless words on a computer screen. However, all it really takes is one to make a difference in your life.....the one that helps.

Edited August 15, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Rosie_0801]

You'd better alert Rosie that she's not allowed to participate in discussions on this board anymore either — her oldest is only 3! Or maybe you could stop trying to enforce rules that don't exist...

 

Jackie

 

I'm alerted. And she's 4, ok. Are you trying to deny me credit? :mad:

 

Why not call your sub-forum "For Cloud Children." Isn't that a term that's been used on here in the past?

 

Rosie

[Teachin'Mine]

:grouphug: The women on this board are very supportive. If you post "struggling with an LD learner" or something to the equivalent in the subject line, I'm sure you would get lots of thought-provoking, encouraging suggestions.

 

I really hope you will post and not be afraid of anyone making hurtful comments. I encourage all parents that are struggling to post. I think posters try very hard to offer suggestions that fit the scenario being described.

 

I think at times the posts on this forum can be intimidating b/c there are a lot of very high achievers on this forum. But, there are also plenty of us that have kids that aren't. I think the idea that there is only one acceptable path promoted here is false. I know that in my family alone I have students that fall into these broad categories: public university, very small private LAC, attempting vocational training through a CC, and high goals/top school wannabe.

 

None of them have followed the same path. I don't post about them equally b/c I am more confident in what I am doing with some of them vs. others. My Aspie leaves me sleepless many nights. I have no answers.....only current possibilities. He is a learn as we go proposition. :( I know lots of the things that haven't worked, but we haven't found the answer to the what actually will.

 

I don't post on the SN boards about him b/c I am pretty sure I am the only one posting that has an adult on that board. So, I definitely feel like I am groping in the dark as to what to do and where to go. The pilot program that has been started here is the first time in a long time I have had hope that he will be able to have any sort of long term independence.

 

A few yrs ago, he was a much different young man. He was violent, angry, and his OCD issues dominated our lives. He terrified his siblings and left them hiding behind furniture or under the table crying when he would have furious outbursts. He threatened to kill himself holding razor blades to his wrists screaming in front of them. He carved his arms. He punched holes in our walls. He kicked holes in our doors. He attacked me. Unfortunately, we had to remove him from our home for 4 1/2 months for them to be able to de-stress b/c it was really impacting one of our younger dd's health. (ETA: I was thinking about how long he was actually gone and it was from Feb to mid-June, so it wasn't quite as long as I originally posted. I also thought I should mention how off guard we were for his change in his behavior when he hit puberty. When he was younger he was perpetually in motion and unable to control his need to move, but he was incredibly tender-hearted and had a heart of gold. When his hormones started raging, it was like a monster had been unleashed inside of him.)

 

I block out most of my memories from when he was 14-16 b/c they are so incredibly painful. I don't like thinking about them and I most definitely don't like sharing them. I am only doing that now to encourage you and others to be willing to share your needs and ask for help b/c I know what it is like to be at your wit's end and have no where to turn. I don't know what I would have done w/o the help of one of the posters on this forum, PattyJoanna. She was my life-line and the one that actually gave us hope and helped us find the place we sent our ds. It was a good experience for him and it provided the opportunity for our home to become a calm, quiet, nurturing environment for our younger children.

 

The women here are not only awesome, they are incredibly knowledgeable. Until you ask, you don't know if anyone will have an answer that might help you or not. Perhaps the vast majority of the responses will be nothing but meaningless words on a computer screen. However, all it really takes is one to make a difference in your life.....the one that helps.

 

So then you can understand why someone who doesn't feel that any of the existing categories fits their needs would suggest that perhaps a new one could be added.

 

If I'm not mistaken, for post high school, the only existing forum is the college one. This one is a great wealth of information on college applications, acceptances, programs, college life from the perspective of the moms, etc.. Maybe a separate forum could be added for high school graduates where a variety of concerns could be addressed for this age group.

 

I am hopeful there will be one as Karen and others have proposed as well.

 

If kilts and other topics aren't taking away from the main focus of this forum, I hardly think that topics addressing alternative learning - or cloud children - or whatever - would either. It would enrich the board and most likely the homeschooling experience for many families.

[8filltheheart]

So then you can understand why someone who doesn't feel that any of the existing categories fits their needs would suggest that perhaps a new one could be added.

 

If I'm not mistaken' date=' for post high school, the only existing forum is the college one. This one is a great wealth of information on college applications, acceptances, programs, college life from the perspective of the moms, etc.. Maybe a separate forum could be added for high school graduates where a variety of concerns could be addressed for this age group.

 

I am hopeful there will be one as Karen and others have proposed as well.

 

If kilts and other topics aren't taking away from the main focus of this forum, I hardly think that topics addressing alternative learning - or cloud children - or whatever - would either. It would enrich the board and most likely the homeschooling experience for many families.[/quote']

 

You misunderstand my posts completely.

 

It would never occur to me to think, let alone tell, the parent of a placid, easy-going Aspie that they don't really understand the issues involved in raising an Aspie. My struggles w/my ds's violence and their not dealing with those trials would in no way negate their very real struggles w/ whatever issues their child truly suffers. And while we might have some areas of differences in our children's behaviors, more than likely, there would be many areas where the disability would actually manifest itself in similar ways.

 

I have never thought that KarenAnne and Jackie don't have insights that are valuable to other parents. Where I completely disagree with the premise of this thread is with the notion that unless the situation resonates with how they experience or see it that it must not be a disabling issue.

Edited August 16, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Teachin'Mine]

You misunderstand my posts completely.

 

It would never occur to me to think, let alone tell, the parent of a placid, easy-going Aspie that they don't really understand the issues involved in raising an Aspie. My struggles w/my ds's violence and their not dealing with those trials would in no way negate their very real struggles w/ whatever issues their child truly suffers. And while we might have some areas of differences in our children's behaviors, more than likely, there would be many areas where the disability would actually manifest itself in similar ways.

 

I have never thought that KarenAnne and Jackie don't have insights that are valuable to other parents. Where I completely disagree with the premise of this thread is with the notion that unless the situation resonates with how they experience or see it that it must not be a disabling issue.

 

I do understand what you were saying. I was only addressing the section I had bolded. To the rest of your post, I send :grouphug:s.

 

IMO, I think there's maybe a need for two new forums - one for high school and older LDs and another one for 2e/alternative learning.

[8filltheheart]

I do understand what you were saying. I was only addressing the section I had bolded. To the rest of your post' date=' I send :grouphug:s.

 

IMO, I think there's maybe a need for two new forums - one for high school and older LDs and another one for 2e/alternative learning.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry. I did misunderstand what you were saying.

 

FWIW, though, I don't think a sub-forum for older students w/LDs would work. I think that the homeschooling high school population is already so small, that those w/disabilities doing it at home is a very small #. Posting it to the general high school board actually gives the benefit of many different perspectives. Some may be way off, but some may be very insightful. Whereas if you posted it questions to an LD board, the number of posters would be so minimal that the experiences would be limited. Does that make any sense?

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm sorry. I did misunderstand what you were saying.

 

FWIW, though, I don't think a sub-forum for older students w/LDs would work. I think that the homeschooling high school population is already so small, that those w/disabilities doing it at home is a very small #. Posting it to the general high school board actually gives the benefit of many different perspectives. Some may be way off, but some may be very insightful. Whereas if you posted it questions to an LD board, the number of posters would be so minimal that the experiences would be limited. Does that make any sense?

 

No problem - no need to apologize. :)

 

I hear what you're saying, but I think it's hard to know how many will utilize a new section until it's opened. It could be a sub-forum of the high school board so it's easily seen by others when there's a new post. That seems to be how the writing area is working right now. Not many use it or reply, but for those who have, it's filled a need very nicely. Just some thoughts.

[Corraleno]

Jackie, your posts are an inspiration to me because they epitomize what I want in my son's education. But just looking at the amount of work your ds is doing makes my head reel. How do you keep up with him? Do you read every book that he does and watch every TC lecture along with him? And if not then how do you know what he has learnt? Do you require him to produce at least some output?

 

Except for math and spelling, none of the items on DS’s schedule are things he would consider “work,†so to him it’s a little bit of work plus a lot of fun stuff. It may look like a lot of work for the parent, but that’s only true if the parent is trying to schedule everything and create lots of quizzes and assignments and things. I stopped scheduling his work, because he just prefers to do things in his own order, and I never know when he’s going to want to go into more depth or when he’s going to want to just skim through something and move on. We’ve ended up spending far longer on ancient history than I would have ever imagined, but it’s lit a fire in him that’s just amazing to see. (He’ll have to “leave†Greece and move onto Rome eventually, because he’s almost out of TC courses!) His Greek class is with Lukeion, so they schedule that, not me, and for math we just "do the next thing."

 

As for keeping up with him, it takes surprisingly little effort on my part. I do watch some of the TC courses with him, particularly the general overview sort of courses, so we can discuss them. But it’s not that time-consuming because I can always pay bills or fold laundry or answer email while I watch, and sometimes we all watch them together in the evenings. I posted in this thread about how I use TC lectures to teach many of the same skills others might teach through writing and outlining. For the lectures I don’t watch myself, there are discussion questions in the course guide, or I may just ask him to summarize the three main points, or tell me what the professor’s main argument was and how he supported it.

 

Since science for us tends to be experiential and hands-on, I can see what he’s doing and what he’s understanding or not understanding, so there’s not a lot of formal “output†required. For astronomy we watched TC lectures and lots of documentaries, built Galileoscope telescopes, attended “star parties†with the local astronomy club and got to look at lots of different objects through lots of different telescopes, and spent many nights in our backyard looking at the sky. For biology DS was really into freshwater organisms last year, so we had lots of trips to the river to collect things, and he set up an “ecosystem tank†that he stocked with every kind of critter he could find, including leeches, planarians, hydra, snails, amphipods, water mites, plus a few fish and a crayfish. He tests the water weekly and has learned a lot about water chemistry. He spent weeks looking at algae and protists under the microscope and trying to identify them either in books or online. The only output I required was to draw them in his science/nature notebook and add the identification and any cool facts about them he wanted to include. He also managed to assemble a colony of about 40 planarians and did a bunch of (noninjurious) experiments; I gave him the option of either writing lab reports or drawing in his notebook (he drew them). He also reads a lot of science on his own, watches tons of science documentaries, and does paleo fieldwork every year (where the “output†is cleaned, consolidated, and catalogued fossils).

 

The only books I read with him are the main literature selections, like Gilgamesh, the Iliad & Odyssey, Beowulf, etc. We often do those aloud, or as a combination of read-aloud, audio book, and independent reading. Even if I wasn’t reading them myself, there are plenty of resources, like SparkNotes, that provide plot summaries and discussion questions. For the books he reads on his own, we just discuss them over dinner or in the car or whatever — I might ask about the background of the main character, what little details the author used to convey his personailty, or what character flaws the author gives him and why, things like that. We recently had an interesting discussion about how the hero of the story often has a sort of bumbling sidekick, and all of the different ways in which sidekicks can be used to further the plot, demonstrate specific character traits like patience or loyalty, point up character traits of the hero by contrast, add conflict or tension, etc.

 

My son is a voracious reader - fiction and non-fiction both. But I cannot really have meaningful discussion on those books unless I have read them myself. He loves to draw and will spend hours making up his own super heroes and drawing and writing comics, but if I ask him to draw the parts of a seed, he will not. He will make powerpoint presentations on topics of his choice, but not if they are assigned by me. So with a son like mine who has no inclination to produce any output on the topics he reads, how would I gauge his understanding unless I read every topic myself to be able to ask pointed questions?

 

The years that DS was in school, and the year I tried to impose a schedule and use textbooks and require a lot of traditional “output†in our homeschool, he responded very much the way you say your son does: didn’t want to discuss what he was reading, didn’t want any drawing to be “school-related,†etc. Not in a disobedient or defiant way, just in a this-is-torture sort of way. Since the “school†stuff was so intensely “schooly,†it was something he just wanted to get over with as soon as possible with minimal involvement, and then he wanted his free time to be entirely his. He didn’t want any “educational†activities or demands beyond the absolute minimum he had to produce. Now that he’s allowed to pursue his interests, he’s quite willing to produce whatever output I ask of him, especially since I’ve completely eliminated any output-just-for-the-sake-of-output. We do most things orally, he’s allowed to draw a lot of his work, etc. You'd be surprised how much you can discuss about a book without having read it yourself, just by asking questions and then following those up with other questions. The same is true of nonfiction, hands-on activities, etc. — start with "explain to me why..."

 

Jackie

Edited August 16, 2011 by Corraleno