Wondering...

[Enough]

It's not about looking for a "safe haven"; it's about being able to ask questions and have discussions without having to provide a lengthy preamble of explanation and justification.

 

If a parent of a profoundly gifted child posts on the K8 board asking about a 5th grade history curriculum for a 4 yo, 20 people will tell her to back off and chill out and just make mud pies; to get any information, she'll need to "prove" that her child really does need it and can handle it, that he taught himself to read at 3 and currently reads on a 5th grade level, that he's been begging to learn history, etc. On the Accelerated board, the same parent can say "What's a good history program for a PG 4 yo reading at a 5th grade level?" and she'll get the answers she's looking for.

 

It would be nice for parents of VSLs, for example, to be able to discuss why interest-led, whole-to-part learning is often more effective with these kids, without having to answer the inevitable warnings that interest-led learning equals coddling, that kids who are allowed to study what they want will choose fluff, will never get out of their comfort zones, won't be able to handle hard work, etc. It would be nice to be able to discuss whether taking a "better late than early" approach with some of these kids might be more effective, without fending off warnings about "lack of standard output" and kids not being prepared for college. It would be nice to be able to discuss alternative approaches to providing a classical education without being challenged to justify it by proving that our kids truly can't do things the normal way and therefore require an alternative approach — because if they're remotely capable of "normal" work, then they should be forced to just suck it up and do it.

 

A subforum on adapting classical methods for "differently wired" kids (especially at the Logic and Rhetoric levels) would spare parents of these kids from constantly having to explain themselves and justify what they do, just as the Special Needs and Accelerated boards do. And presumably it would spare those who find alternative approaches "antithetical to classical methods" (as one poster recently put it) from having such discussions clutter up the main HS board.

 

Jackie

 

Adding in a 'yes' vote, both for the sake of those who want this type of space, and also because I would find this type of sub-forum useful, even though my kids is not so differently wired kid as to completely preclude using traditional methods. I'm deeply interested in the ways people adapt classical methods, period, regardless of whether the reason is brain wiring or wanting to be more interest/child-led. Sometimes I think the latter term is a dirty word on this board. :confused:

 

And perhaps OT, but about the part I underlined/italicized in your post, Corraleno: how do VSL and interest-led go together? How does interest-led learning meet the specific needs of VSLs? I've only ever thought of interest-led learning in terms of temperament, or educational philosophy, and I'm ignorant about how it applies to brain biology. For the record- I firmly believe that interest-led learning is valid and valuable for all kids- regardless of their learning style! I'm not knocking it, or asking you to defend it, at all- in fact, I am actively trying to incorporate more of it into my own homeschooling, especially after another of KarenAnne's threads that got me all hot and bothered about why we make the educational choices that we do. ;)

Edited August 13, 2011 by Enough

[J'etudie]

.

[Corraleno]

Adding in a 'yes' vote, both for the sake of those who want this type of space, and also because I would find this type of sub-forum useful, even though my kids is not so differently wired kid as to completely preclude using traditional methods. I'm deeply interested in the ways people adapt classical methods, period, regardless of whether the reason is brain wiring or wanting to be more interest/child-led. Sometimes I think the latter term is a dirty word on this board. :confused:

Strange, isn't it? :001_huh:

 

And perhaps OT, but about the part I underlined/italicized in your post, Corraleno: how do VSL and interest-led go together? How does interest-led learning meet the specific needs of VSLs? I've only ever thought of interest-led learning in terms of temperament, or educational philosophy, and I'm ignorant about how it applies to brain biology.

This is a blurb from visualspatial.org:

Sometimes seen as having poor organization skills, picture thinkers have their order. It centers around significance, an emotional response. Rather than outline as step-by-step learners do, where main ideas stand out like trees on the plain, spatials respond to feelings about importance. If something strikes them as worthwhile, it becomes part of their web of essentials, a mental map of things worth paying attention to. Instead of outlines—so comfortable to the stepwise —a picture thinker’s scheme of reality is more like a 3D star map. The various stars and constellations stand out in different degrees of brightness, all shining against the dark space surrounding them and all interconnected in some way. Those connections are based on feelings and sensed importance.

 

According to DS and DH (both extreme VSLs), as well as a number of other VSLs (and parents of VSLs) I've talked to, that summary is quite accurate. Interest and engagement are necessary for retention; if they don't "hook" into the material, it goes in one side of the brain and out the other, with little or no retention. I've found that it's much more effective and productive to jump on DS's interests as they arise, rather than saying "I know you're fascinated by electricity and magnetism right now, but we'll cover that in two years when we get to physics; right now you have to do cell biology, because that's what I've scheduled. You can putter around with electronics a bit in your spare time, though, if you like."

 

Strike while the iron is hot and he'll absorb and retain an amazing amount of quite advanced information, almost effortlessly. Make him slog through something he has no interest in and it's like trying to "fill" a colander with water. Even if the colander is willing to sit there and let me pour in the water, it's just going to go straight through.

 

Jackie

[Raising Little Shoots]

I thought this thread might include myself, but having read a little further, I dont think it reflects my own situation.

 

Incase this applies to any one else, I would like to recommend an audio by Susan WB - Homeschooling the real child

I found it to be most helpful.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Bluebell

[Mom22ns]

I have hesitated to post on this thread. I'm not sure if a subforum would be helpful because each person has to adapt very differently to their child's needs and it seems (from this thread and others) that people are just as quick to pass judgement on those who adapt differently as the people are who don't have to adapt at all.

 

That said, my ds is at least 2E. I could put several labels on him. WTM as written was not for him although I gained many useful suggestions that I try to employ. We use a lot of structure, less writing, tons of reading, more verbal discussions instead of written responses. Sometimes I feel very out of place and I usually only post in science related threads (since that is my own degree) or broader questions of credits, record keeping etc. I think we are doing a great job. Ds has made fantastic progress and is at or above typical ps kids in every subject area. I love homeschooling and rarely feel discouraged, but I do feel pressure from these boards. I'm just not sure if a more helpful environment could be created in a subforum. That said, if it existed, I'd be there giving it a shot.

[FO4UR]

I have atleast 1 child who fits nothing. I have no formal testing to prove it...but I'm certain he's 2e, VSL, dyslexic. He listens to quite challenging literature with understanding, can orally narrate very well, forms associations from one thing to the next...but can't READ those books for himself, yet. He digs Miquon math, gets it, needs little by way of instruction for conceptual math...but filling out a basic math facts worksheet is painful for him.

 

The CM way of doing things works pretty well for LA b/c it's very adaptable. There is no math curric that works for us, as is.:glare: We are ever straddling the fence between what he can do conceptually, and what he can produce in writing.

[Greta Lea]

I'm wondering...What is 2e????

 

Thanks!

[FO4UR]

I'm wondering...What is 2e????

 

Thanks!

 

 

Twice exceptional

 

Gifted with learning difficulties.

[onaclairadeluna]

I'm wondering...What is 2e????

 

 

Twice exceptional. Gifted and learning disabled.

[onaclairadeluna]

There is no math curric that works for us, as is.:glare: We are ever straddling the fence between what he can do conceptually, and what he can produce in writing.

 

OK I'll bite. Here's one of those out of the box ideas that wouldn't work for 99.99% of the population, but just to give you ideas of a radical adaptation to your standard curriculum.

 

My son did most of his elementary math on walks with me. (GT Dyslexic so I thought I'd share) I made up a game called dinosaur Olympics. He picked an operator and a difficulty level (like in jeopardy). Oh he also got to pick a dinosaur. Baby leyelenosaura always got the easy problems because he really didn't want that dinosaur to loose and T rex would get the challenging problems because he didn't mind T rex getting things wrong.

 

When he got tired I let him jump over things. "Now it's time for the hurdles" or something like that.

 

He was doing mental math 3 grades ahead of what he could write.

 

He clearly needed to learn to write so I got the Singapore workbooks and let him pick whatever he wanted, I had him do this every day but let him choose what he had to write. He wound up doing it way out of order but figured out how to write and completed 1-6 math by the 3rd grade.

 

He had to skip long division (we did that LAST) and he had to do his own thing for multiplication (not be taught how to do it but figure out how to do it on his own). I remember him working out of 2 grades at the same time, maybe even 3. I made sure he learned it all but I didn't stick to the order in the book.

[Corraleno]

OK I'll bite. Here's one of those out of the box ideas that wouldn't work for 99.99% of the population, but just to give you ideas of a radical adaptation to your standard curriculum.

 

My son did most of his elementary math on walks with me. (GT Dyslexic so I thought I'd share) I made up a game called dinosaur Olympics. He picked an operator and a difficulty level (like in jeopardy). Oh he also got to pick a dinosaur. Baby leyelenosaura always got the easy problems because he really didn't want that dinosaur to loose and T rex would get the challenging problems because he didn't mind T rex getting things wrong.

 

When he got tired I let him jump over things. "Now it's time for the hurdles" or something like that.

 

He was doing mental math 3 grades ahead of what he could write.

 

He clearly needed to learn to write so I got the Singapore workbooks and let him pick whatever he wanted, I had him do this every day but let him choose what he had to write. He wound up doing it way out of order but figured out how to write and completed 1-6 math by the 3rd grade.

 

He had to skip long division (we did that LAST) and he had to do his own thing for multiplication (not be taught how to do it but figure out how to do it on his own). I remember him working out of 2 grades at the same time, maybe even 3. I made sure he learned it all but I didn't stick to the order in the book.

I so wish I had done something like that with DS, instead of putting him in school. When he started school halfway through 1st grade (January), his reading and math were above grade level — just from playing games at home, no formal schooling or seatwork. By the end of 1st grade he was pretty much in the same place; by the end of 2nd he was behind, and by the end of 3rd he was so far behind in both math and reading that he was held back. After his second trip through 3rd grade, he still hadn't started division, he'd stopped reading entirely, he hated school, hated life, and was one very unhappy little boy. :(

 

RE: learning things "out of order"... the realization that many VSLs don't need to learn things in any particular order was a huge epiphany for me last year, and made it much easier for me to relax and let DS learn the way he needs to learn, without worrying about "gaps" or whether he has the right "foundation," etc. They have their own system for filing and retaining information and connecting it to other information, and they often do much better if you just hand them the puzzle box and let them figure out how to put it together, rather than trying to teach them to find the corners first, then fill in the sides, then work on one area at a time, etc.

 

Jackie

[Greta Lea]

I have one of those kiddos, but had never heard that term!

[Guest]

OK I'll bite. Here's one of those out of the box ideas that wouldn't work for 99.99% of the population, but just to give you ideas of a radical adaptation to your standard curriculum.

 

My son did most of his elementary math on walks with me. (GT Dyslexic so I thought I'd share) I made up a game called dinosaur Olympics. He picked an operator and a difficulty level (like in jeopardy). Oh he also got to pick a dinosaur. Baby leyelenosaura always got the easy problems because he really didn't want that dinosaur to loose and T rex would get the challenging problems because he didn't mind T rex getting things wrong.

 

When he got tired I let him jump over things. "Now it's time for the hurdles" or something like that.

 

He was doing mental math 3 grades ahead of what he could write.

 

He clearly needed to learn to write so I got the Singapore workbooks and let him pick whatever he wanted, I had him do this every day but let him choose what he had to write. He wound up doing it way out of order but figured out how to write and completed 1-6 math by the 3rd grade.

 

He had to skip long division (we did that LAST) and he had to do his own thing for multiplication (not be taught how to do it but figure out how to do it on his own). I remember him working out of 2 grades at the same time, maybe even 3. I made sure he learned it all but I didn't stick to the order in the book.

 

On a three-part guest-post I wrote for SWB's education blog over a year ago, I talked about how dd's severe dysgraphia forced me to do almost entirely non-paper-based math throughout early elementary, perhaps until fourth or fifth grade. The usual adaptations -- scribing for her, using a whiteboard, etc. -- simply were not enough to deal with the level of her differences. Like you, we made up stories to go with math, did math through activities and LOTS of mental math, played math games, ones we made up and ones I found in books. We read math picture books. It was not orderly or incremental. Like your child, dd was conceptually far ahead of her writing abilities; like yours, she was so radically asynchronous-- she could do algebraic equations with negative values for x while still being unable to accurately count out the candles for her birthday cake.

 

I love, absolutely love, the use of dinosaurs in your anecdote, and the ways your child worked his protective feelings for the little ones into the math!

[FO4UR]

OK I'll bite. Here's one of those out of the box ideas that wouldn't work for 99.99% of the population, but just to give you ideas of a radical adaptation to your standard curriculum.

 

My son did most of his elementary math on walks with me. (GT Dyslexic so I thought I'd share) I made up a game called dinosaur Olympics. He picked an operator and a difficulty level (like in jeopardy). Oh he also got to pick a dinosaur. Baby leyelenosaura always got the easy problems because he really didn't want that dinosaur to loose and T rex would get the challenging problems because he didn't mind T rex getting things wrong.

 

When he got tired I let him jump over things. "Now it's time for the hurdles" or something like that.

 

He was doing mental math 3 grades ahead of what he could write.

 

He clearly needed to learn to write so I got the Singapore workbooks and let him pick whatever he wanted, I had him do this every day but let him choose what he had to write. He wound up doing it way out of order but figured out how to write and completed 1-6 math by the 3rd grade.

 

He had to skip long division (we did that LAST) and he had to do his own thing for multiplication (not be taught how to do it but figure out how to do it on his own). I remember him working out of 2 grades at the same time, maybe even 3. I made sure he learned it all but I didn't stick to the order in the book.

 

 

The dino olymics sounds like a fun game...hmmm...

 

Mine figured out multiplication on his own too...the algorithm has to be taught, but he intuitively takes apart the digits, multipies, and puts it all back together. I don't need a curric to belabor those concepts b/c he gets it already...but he does need practice with it.

 

I'm eyeing AoPS for future use, but I'm not sure what to do with him in the meantime. He's doing easy Kumon wb's just for practice on paper (the discipline of it as much as the practice writing). It's the "What do we do for math lesson today?" that has me stumped. (I need to decide on this as the school starts NOW!) I keep looking for something that he can do in order and with moderate independence...'tis a fairy tale...:tongue_smilie:

 

Your post is getting some ideas flowing...Singapore...just let him pick what page(s)...hmmm...

[Colleen in NS]

I get your point, on one hand, but on another, I find myself shaken to the core these days.

 

I remember reading some of her posts there and thinking, "Is this the same Mom who talks so easily on the other boards about how to teach this and that??" ...And 8 has a solid educational background, too.

 

Oh. Colleen, I think you misunderstood on this one or perhaps I didn't phrase my response very carefully.

 

Maybe I did misunderstand. I thought you were thinking 8 might not understand being shaken to the core because of educational/family issues; so I tried, by mentioning her past posts on the SN board (ETA: After reading 8's story much further downthread about her Aspie, I now think it was the SN board on the "old boards" where I saw her posts about him. As indicated by the ages of her son then and now in her story and signature line, this all happened in the time before these "new boards." So I don't think her old posts are easily searchable. But, she graciously shared her painful story downthread), to show that she probably would understand shakenness. And I mentioned her educational background as a way of saying, "She's like you - she has a background, too, and I think she has been shaken, too - she would probably fully understand."

 

If I misunderstood you, I am sorry. I was just trying to help you in your distress. I tried to p.m. you instead of posting here, but your box is full. I wish you the best, Lisa, as you work things out! I always enjoy reading about what you do with your kids. You've been an inspiration to me.

 

safe from having to constantly, constantly explain, defend, and justify myself, my approaches, my thoughts to people who don't seem to understand what I'm saying but continually criticize or question it anyway.

 

...indeed has used it herself elsewhere on the boards (without it becoming an issue). I picked it up from her and brought it to this thread, which perhaps was not the best idea.

 

A safe haven used in this sense and in this context does not mean a hide-away or an exclusive little group; it means freedom from becoming tangled up in the need to defend and justify one's self.

 

Using "safe haven" is not an issue. I was just trying to help with something I thought you were looking for.

 

The thing about an open forum is that ideas will always be open to examination or posting about different approaches to the same issue by anyone who finds a thread relevant in any way. You might not like the examination and might not agree with a different approach to an issue, but that's the way of public forums.

 

I once posted an opinion (when asked) that I thought the General Board should move back to its description - the description indicates that it's mostly for talking about classical methods of homeschooling. It frustrated me that there was so much ELSE being talked about there, because the K-8 board was for curriculum. If I posted on the GB to talk about methods of teaching, it mostly was ignored. After awhile I gave up and went with the flow - wherever there was a discussion on teaching, whatever I had to "chop up," I went with it to get the help I needed. After all, it's not my board and we are all non-paying guests here. I am grateful for a free place to get so much homeschooling help at my fingertips AT ALL!!!:D

 

I have observed that there is a difference between looking for specific help (which usually seems to be available) and looking for philosophical discussions. I think the philosophical discussions are the ones that tend to be examined more closely, and KarenAnne, you are not the only poster whose philosophical posts ever get examined. There are thousands of posts that are scrutizined.

 

Incase this applies to any one else, I would like to recommend an audio by Susan WB - Homeschooling the real child

I found it to be most helpful.

 

:iagree: Extremely helpful to me.

 

but I do feel pressure from these boards.

 

I think many of us feel this way, in different areas, just because of the nature of homeschooling and reading an open forum. For a variety of reasons, I am pretty sure I won't be able to do the type of classical education job that I would LOVE for my kids to have (see Hunter's thread about "3 generations to dig out of this mess" on the K-8 board - I loved it, but it also made me realize that I wouldn't be able to achieve the depth that I didn't know could be there - it was an excellent thread - gave me lots to think about). I might not post a whole lot about it, but I regularly worry, about science and math especially. And literature, logic, and Latin. And now writing. Grammar, though difficult now (we're up to R&S 8), seems a little more conquerable to me. The rest regularly gives me anxiety these days, and I don't expect that anxiety will let up anytime soon. I just have to keep on keeping on, and reading all over the boards for relevant posts.

 

None of us likes to feel like others are boxing us into an educational box of any kind. I am happy for anyone who finds others here to relate to, for whatever issue. I do hope that lurkers who hesitate to post about what they feel are "non-standard" issues will speak up and ask what they need to in order to get help. There is help for everyone on all the boards, and there is also the p.m. option if people "connect" with a person's posts (I use this OFTEN, esp. if I am feeling really stupid about something like math:D). P.M.'s also have the option of being sent to multiple posters, and of bcc'ing to multiple posters. Tags are helpful, too, for lurkers wanting to search for threads of similar content. There are so many ways to use these forums to get the help we each need.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Colleen in NS
wanted to clarify about 8FilltheHeart's old posts on the SN board

[beaners]

It's not about looking for a "safe haven"; it's about being able to ask questions and have discussions without having to provide a lengthy preamble of explanation and justification.

 

If a parent of a profoundly gifted child posts on the K8 board asking about a 5th grade history curriculum for a 4 yo, 20 people will tell her to back off and chill out and just make mud pies; to get any information, she'll need to "prove" that her child really does need it and can handle it, that he taught himself to read at 3 and currently reads on a 5th grade level, that he's been begging to learn history, etc. On the Accelerated board, the same parent can say "What's a good history program for a PG 4 yo reading at a 5th grade level?" and she'll get the answers she's looking for.

 

It would be nice for parents of VSLs, for example, to be able to discuss why interest-led, whole-to-part learning is often more effective with these kids, without having to answer the inevitable warnings that interest-led learning equals coddling, that kids who are allowed to study what they want will choose fluff, will never get out of their comfort zones, won't be able to handle hard work, etc. It would be nice to be able to discuss whether taking a "better late than early" approach with some of these kids might be more effective, without fending off warnings about "lack of standard output" and kids not being prepared for college. It would be nice to be able to discuss alternative approaches to providing a classical education without being challenged to justify it by proving that our kids truly can't do things the normal way and therefore require an alternative approach — because if they're remotely capable of "normal" work, then they should be forced to just suck it up and do it.

 

A subforum on adapting classical methods for "differently wired" kids (especially at the Logic and Rhetoric levels) would spare parents of these kids from constantly having to explain themselves and justify what they do, just as the Special Needs and Accelerated boards do. And presumably it would spare those who find alternative approaches "antithetical to classical methods" (as one poster recently put it) from having such discussions clutter up the main HS board.

 

Jackie

 

I'm sure I'd like to read a board like this, although it doesn't apply to my own children. I don't think that the expectation that a specific board would limit the need for repeated explanation is likely to work out, though. Even on the accelerated board there are often responses that "doing regular kid things" would be of more value than providing the academics a child is asking for. A wider range than just VSLs seem to want a place to discuss 2E and associated issues. VSL topics might crop up more frequently, but there's also a chance that they'd still be out of the mainstream for that board. From my own (unimportant) perspective, far outside of this discussion, it doesn't seem like this would provide the respite being sought without becoming very, very specific in purpose.

[Corraleno]

The thing about an open forum is that ideas will always be open to examination or posting about different approaches to the same issue by anyone who finds a thread relevant in any way. You might not like the examination and might not agree with a different approach to an issue, but that's the way of public forums.

Yes, but a parent of a neurotypical child is not going to go on the Special Needs board and start telling parents of ADD kids that ADD doesn't exist and their kids just need to learn to sit still and pay attention. Parents of non-accelerated kids don't generally go on the Accelerated board and tell people to just chill out and stop "pushing" their kids. But when a parent with a differently-wired kid posts on the K8 or HS board, the vast majority of respondents do not have kids like that and really do not understand the issues. So if a parent of a gifted VSL posts about their child's need to be engaged and interested in order to learn, they will be told that: life is full of boring, uninteresting tasks and kids need to just suck it up and deal with it; that all kids prefer to be engaged, but a child who simply cannot learn something they're not interested in has a severe disability; that this is a discipline/behavior issue; that the concept of a VSL is just a "pet theory" and that most kids who appear to be nonlinear thinkers are just lazy, etc.

 

At least with a separate 2E subforum, most of the participants would be parents of "twice exceptional" kids (whatever the "exceptions" happen to be) who "get" it. Or call it an Alternative Classical forum — either way it is clear up front that participants are looking for nonstandard, alternative ways of implementing a Classical education, and not looking to debate whether alternative methods are valid or dangerous or "rigorous" enough or "classical enough" or whatever.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Even on the accelerated board there are often responses that "doing regular kid things" would be of more value than providing the academics a child is asking for.

But at least it's a lot rarer than it would be if those parents were posting on the K8 board. I also think there's a big difference between parents of gifted kids having differences of opinion about how to teach/parent their gifted kids, and a parent of a nongifted kid, who doesn't understand the issues, telling parents of gifted kids that accelerated academics are wrong or harmful or whatever.

 

A wider range than just VSLs seem to want a place to discuss 2E and associated issues. VSL topics might crop up more frequently, but there's also a chance that they'd still be out of the mainstream for that board. From my own (unimportant) perspective, far outside of this discussion, it doesn't seem like this would provide the respite being sought without becoming very, very specific in purpose.

I'm just using VSL examples because I happen to have a VSL, but I certainly didn't mean to imply that I was interested in a subforum just for VSLs.

 

Maybe an "Alternative Classical" subforum would be more useful than a 2E subforum, because it would be more inclusive (including parents of NT kids who are looking for alternative approaches) while also making explicit that the focus is on finding alternative methods of implementing a classical education (i.e. not particularly relevant to parents of 2E kids who feel that the best approach is not to seek alternative methods but rather to find ways for them to work within the standard framework).

 

Jackie

[Guest]

According to DS and DH (both extreme VSLs), as well as a number of other VSLs (and parents of VSLs) I've talked to, that summary is quite accurate. Interest and engagement are necessary for retention; if they don't "hook" into the material, it goes in one side of the brain and out the other, with little or no retention.

 

... Make him slog through something he has no interest in and it's like trying to "fill" a colander with water. Even if the colander is willing to sit there and let me pour in the water, it's just going to go straight through.

 

Jackie

 

Recently dd and I were reviewing exponents after several months away from math. She told me, "I know that any number to the zero power is one. At one time I knew why, but I discharged it from my long-term memory as unnecessary information."

 

She got an enormous kick from the 2010 BBC version of "Sherlock," particularly one scene in which Sherlock rages at Watson that details which do not fit into his mental schema for what is important -- "the work" -- just take up too much space in his mental hard drive and he discards them. Just by the way, I also really like how the show gets Sherlock's pictorial, highly idiosyncratic, associative manner of thinking onto the screen.

 

And I heard Temple Grandin once be hilariously, unsuspectingly funny when she spoke about how neurotypicals use so much brain space for social information and relationships; when you discard all that, she said in awe and pleasure, there's just SO MUCH ROOM for other stuff!

 

It's both fun and important to collect instances of this kind with dd. Because this type of mental pattern-making isn't often put into words for those of us who don't think in that manner, representations of it in other arenas are precious things, at least for dd and me.

[Embassy]

So if a parent of a gifted VSL posts about their child's need to be engaged and interested in order to learn, they will be told that: life is full of boring, uninteresting tasks and kids need to just suck it up and deal with it; that all kids prefer to be engaged, but a child who simply cannot learn something they're not interested in has a severe disability; that this is a discipline/behavior issue; that the concept of a VSL is just a "pet theory" and that most kids who appear to be nonlinear thinkers are just lazy, etc.

 

:iagree: Spot on. As a VSL and parent of a VSL I totally get what you are saying.

 

I'd love to learn from ones who have been there and done that. There has to be a more efficient way than the hundreds of hours I put in tweaking and creating curriculum to engage my kids.

[Guest]

onaclairadeluna posted this link over on the accelerated board, "for comfort reading." And it truly is.

 

 

 

http://laughingatchaos.com/2011/07/18/what-i-wish-others-knew-about-parenting-twice-exceptional-kids/

Edited August 13, 2011 by Guest

[peacefully]

.

[Corraleno]

And I heard Temple Grandin once be hilariously, unsuspectingly funny when she spoke about how neurotypicals use so much brain space for social information and relationships; when you discard all that, she said in awe and pleasure, there's just SO MUCH ROOM for other stuff!

That is totally DH! He knows more about equine mechanics and movement than the vet does, he knows more about the neurology of binocular vision than his opthamologist does, and yet every year the fact that Christmas falls on December 25th seems to take him completely by surprise. ("Tomorrow is Christmas??? Really??? But I haven't bought anything..." <panicked look>) :lol:

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

onaclairadeluna posted this link over on the accelerated board, "for comfort reading." And it truly is.

 

 

 

http://laughingatchaos.com/2011/07/18/what-i-wish-others-knew-about-parenting-twice-exceptional-kids/

 

Maybe we can use the definition of "2e" in #5 for the subforum. That should be inclusive enough. :lol:

 

Jackie

[J'etudie]

Your post is getting some ideas flowing...Singapore...just let him pick what page(s)...hmmm...

 

I like this idea a lot!

[Pepper Potts]

Yes, but a parent of a neurotypical child is not going to go on the Special Needs board and start telling parents of ADD kids that ADD doesn't exist and their kids just need to learn to sit still and pay attention. Parents of non-accelerated kids don't generally go on the Accelerated board and tell people to just chill out and stop "pushing" their kids. But when a parent with a differently-wired kid posts on the K8 or HS board, the vast majority of respondents do not have kids like that and really do not understand the issues. So if a parent of a gifted VSL posts about their child's need to be engaged and interested in order to learn, they will be told that: life is full of boring, uninteresting tasks and kids need to just suck it up and deal with it; that all kids prefer to be engaged, but a child who simply cannot learn something they're not interested in has a severe disability; that this is a discipline/behavior issue; that the concept of a VSL is just a "pet theory" and that most kids who appear to be nonlinear thinkers are just lazy, etc.

:iagree:

At least with a separate 2E subforum, most of the participants would be parents of "twice exceptional" kids (whatever the "exceptions" happen to be) who "get" it. Or call it an Alternative Classical forum — either way it is clear up front that participants are looking for nonstandard, alternative ways of implementing a Classical education, and not looking to debate whether alternative methods are valid or dangerous or "rigorous" enough or "classical enough" or whatever.

 

:w00t::drool: Sign me up!

[peacefully]

.

[Corraleno]

I put Singapore on hold for a ds just like the ones posted above. How can you instinctively know 3/8 is half of 3/4 as a 6yo but be unable to add 4+0 as an 8yo? :confused: We're doing "discovery math" this year, LOF, Hands-On Equations, and Patty Paper Geometry, but letting him continue in Singapore in the order he wants is a brilliant idea. I get so caught up in the "foundation" that I forget he's designing a different building.

 

I feel like I started out with a very specific idea of what I wanted DS's education to look like; I bought a big pile of building materials (curriculum), and while I was sitting there reading Chapter 1 of the Construction Manual, "How to Build a Foundation," DS took all the PVC pipes that were supposed to go into the plumbing, assembled them into triangles, and started building a geodesic dome on his own. After staring at it a while in shock, I finally thought "OK, we can go with that."

 

Jackie

Edited August 13, 2011 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

It really is invaluable to hear from other moms whose children need to direct their own learning to a large degree. Otherwise, I just get mired in self-doubt, because the only options I get to hear about IRL is public school or unschooling. Even on these forums, I sometimes feel that I will scream if someone else tells me to just listen to SWB's audios about writing and how I just need to follow her 12-year plan for writing and everything will be just fine in the end.

I can tell you that what worked for my DS for grammar was exactly the opposite of what almost everyone else on the board would say to do. I'm convinced that, for him, (1) waiting until he has an interest in something, or at least a reason for studying it; (2) waiting until he's cognitively ready to take in the whole thing, instead of learning bits at a time; and (3) presenting it in an interesting, engaging, visual way, is about 1000 times more effective than trying to build up skills piece by piece, year by year. He found standard grammar programs tedious and pointless and none of it ever stuck. At the end of 6th grade (last year), he knew what a noun, verb, adjective, and adverb were — and that was mostly from playing MadLibs.

 

But he wants to learn Greek, so now he has a reason to learn grammar, and now he's cognitively capable of taking it all in at once and getting the "big picture" instead of snippets. I signed him up for an intensive online grammar class with Lukeion this summer. Great course — definitely intense, but also very funny, with lots of visuals and mnemonics, hilarious example sentences, custom grammar games for practice, etc. In 4 weeks, they covered everything from parts of speech to case, mood, voice, aspect, tenses (all 12), clauses, phrases, verbals, diagramming — the whole ball of wax. He loved the course, got an A, remembers everything. Forcing him through five years of R&S grammar would have accomplished little more than instilling a lifelong hatred of grammar. Now he thinks it's easy, and even fun.

 

Clearly that wouldn't work for every kid, but knowing that it worked for somebody's kid at least provides an alternative worth looking at. I plan to approach writing the same way: when he's ready and he wants to do it (he's mentioned recently that he'd like to write a novel about a civilization he's invented), then we'll "do writing." I'll let you know how it goes. :001_smile:

 

Jackie

[Guest]

nm

Edited August 14, 2011 by Guest

[littleWMN]

Strange, isn't it? :001_huh:

 

 

This is a blurb from visualspatial.org:

 

 

According to DS and DH (both extreme VSLs), as well as a number of other VSLs (and parents of VSLs) I've talked to, that summary is quite accurate. Interest and engagement are necessary for retention; if they don't "hook" into the material, it goes in one side of the brain and out the other, with little or no retention. I've found that it's much more effective and productive to jump on DS's interests as they arise, rather than saying "I know you're fascinated by electricity and magnetism right now, but we'll cover that in two years when we get to physics; right now you have to do cell biology, because that's what I've scheduled. You can putter around with electronics a bit in your spare time, though, if you like."

 

Strike while the iron is hot and he'll absorb and retain an amazing amount of quite advanced information, almost effortlessly. Make him slog through something he has no interest in and it's like trying to "fill" a colander with water. Even if the colander is willing to sit there and let me pour in the water, it's just going to go straight through.

 

Jackie

 

Okay, I think this post just rocked my world.

 

You just described me as a child and I think it fits my oldest (10, going into 5th). She's very bright but doesn't care about learning anything unless it *currently* interests her. Math is a huge struggle and she's way "behind". Reading is way ahead, but she doesn't really read challenging books by choice. She does love encyclopedias. I thought she might be an aspie but she was tested and scored like 1%. She has inattentive ADHD and very low processing speed. I have two other kids who seem average over all and one with special needs. She's my only one that is all OVER the map and I simply can't figure it out. I'm dreading homeschooling this year because preteen hormones have hit and she thinks she is stupid. And she is quietly defiant (when it comes to school work). She just looks for the easy way around things. She has LOTS of energy - the most of all four of my kids. She loves being outside and exporing. She's very polite and helpful and loves little kids and people love her. But it's SO hard to parent her right now. I'd say ages 0-5 were really, really hard. She was by far my hardest kid at those ages. 5-9 were great. 10... I feel like she's a different person and I don't know what methods to use to reach her... help? :D

[wapiti]

Maybe an "Alternative Classical" subforum would be more useful than a 2E subforum, because it would be more inclusive (including parents of NT kids who are looking for alternative approaches) while also making explicit that the focus is on finding alternative methods of implementing a classical education (i.e. not particularly relevant to parents of 2E kids who feel that the best approach is not to seek alternative methods but rather to find ways for them to work within the standard framework).

 

Jackie

 

This is an interesting idea. Something just popped into my head about being inclusive, in particular with regard to 2E. Where the weaknesses and strengths tend to "cancel each other out", some parents may be completely unaware of that, and might not think to visit a "2E" board (e.g., the same way they may not think to visit the SN board for the weekly post "my __ y.o. can't read"). But they might notice that regular classical methods are not working for them in one or more areas, and might be open to "alternatives."

[Corraleno]

Okay, I think this post just rocked my world.

 

You just described me as a child and I think it fits my oldest (10, going into 5th). She's very bright but doesn't care about learning anything unless it *currently* interests her. Math is a huge struggle and she's way "behind". Reading is way ahead, but she doesn't really read challenging books by choice. She does love encyclopedias. I thought she might be an aspie but she was tested and scored like 1%. She has inattentive ADHD and very low processing speed. I have two other kids who seem average over all and one with special needs. She's my only one that is all OVER the map and I simply can't figure it out. I'm dreading homeschooling this year because preteen hormones have hit and she thinks she is stupid. And she is quietly defiant (when it comes to school work). She just looks for the easy way around things. She has LOTS of energy - the most of all four of my kids. She loves being outside and exporing. She's very polite and helpful and loves little kids and people love her. But it's SO hard to parent her right now. I'd say ages 0-5 were really, really hard. She was by far my hardest kid at those ages. 5-9 were great. 10... I feel like she's a different person and I don't know what methods to use to reach her... help? :D

The low processing speed is classic VSL. It should really be called verbal/sequential processing speed, because that's really what it's measuring, so it's not surprising that visual/spatial kids would do poorly. It takes a lot of time and effort to translate back and forth, and VSLs are not good at fast recall of random facts, because they don't "file" information in orderly, easily retrievable ways.

 

FWIW, my DS was very much like your DD — ages 0-5 were h*ll on wheels (major sensory issues), 5-10 was good, 10-12 was, um, interesting (no tolerance for frustration, constantly beating himself up for being stupid every time he made any kind of mistake, etc.). Puberty has been a mixed bag, although largely positive; definitely some hormonal swings (especially associated with growth spurts), but also a sudden leap in maturity and cognitive ability. He's much more willing to take responsibility, more self-motivated, less mopey. So there may be better times ahead!

 

My DS was also big on encyclopedias at that age, and not reading much else. I will be forever grateful to Rick Riordan, because Percy Jackson made DS realize for the first time that fiction can take you to another world. Those were the first books he couldn't put down, his first experience of staying up all night reading under the covers. He's worked his way up from there, and now averages a 500-page novel/week. He's currently finishing Prydain, and plans to start LOTR next. Finding the book that "hooked" him took a while, but once he was hooked, there was no stopping him.

 

What is she using for math?

 

Jackie

Edited August 14, 2011 by Corraleno

[littleWMN]

The low processing speed is classic VSL. It should really be called verbal/sequential processing speed, because that's really what it's measuring, so it's not surprising that visual/spatial kids would do poorly. It takes a lot of time and effort to translate back and forth, and VSLs are not good at fast recall of random facts, because they don't "file" information in orderly, easily retrievable ways.

 

FWIW, my DS was very much like your DD — ages 0-5 were h*ll on wheels (major sensory issues), 5-10 was good, 10-12 was, um, interesting (no tolerance for frustration, constantly beating himself up for being stupid every time he made any kind of mistake, etc.). Puberty has been a mixed bag, although largely positive; definitely some hormonal swings (especially associated with growth spurts), but also a sudden leap in maturity and cognitive ability. He's much more willing to take responsibility, more self-motivated, less mopey. So there may be better times ahead!

 

My DS was also big on encyclopedias at that age, and not reading much else. I will be forever grateful to Rick Riordan, because Percy Jackson made DS realize for the first time that fiction can take you to another world. Those were the first books he couldn't put down, his first experience of staying up all night reading under the covers. He's worked his way up from there, and now averages a 500-page novel/week. He's currently finishing Prydain, and plans to start LOTR next. Finding the book that "hooked" him took a while, but once he was hooked, there was no stopping him.

 

What is she using for math?

 

Jackie

 

WOW! So interesting! Seriously... my head is whirling from this. She does read fiction but she'll enjoy a Magic Treehouse book when it's way below her level. I do realize she's reading for pleasure, but I'd like her to read more challenging things. Her comprehension also tests high (above 95%tile) so I know it's not that. She spouts off random facts from encyclopedias. She does have some sensory issues, but not off the chart or anything. But she was a sensory seeker as a toddler/preschooler. Actually she probably still is, but it's much more manageable. She had the worst fits of all my kids. She was terribly strong-willed. Actually, I'm seeing glimpes of her in my toddler and it scares me, though he's starting the tantrums at 17 months and she was 9 months. ;)

 

For math... we'll, we've hopped. I've finally realized it's not the curriculum but sticking to something. We've landed on CLE b/c that's the only thing she likes. We hired a tutor this summer b/c I was at my wit's end. She's a "drill and kill" tutor and if anything, it's just frustrated her more. It hasn't helped, but it HAS shown me that it's not just my lack of teaching skills. I don't really know how to explain her troubles in math. She doesn't do well with sequencing. She couldn't add well when she was younger but figured out multiplication on her own. :001_huh: She seems to be doing fine and then will take 2 steps backwards. She does not have her basic facts down. At times she can spout them off effortlessly and other times she takes 30 seconds to recall 4 + 1. I just really don't know what to do. Her biggest problem is multiple step "anything" - addition, subtraction, multiplication. She doesn't seem to struggle with concepts too much (like fractions), but she's definitely not "mathy" and doesn't think in mathematical terms. I really think it's that she doesn't value it. That is EXACTLY how I was. The "emotional connection" thing really hit home with me when I read it. I almost cried. That fits me to a tee. I think it frustrates me that she is this way and then I realize that *I* am this way and that frustrates me even further..... :bigear:

 

eta: honestly, I don't know if she's really inattentive ADHD now or not. She's just lost in her own thoughts (or maybe that is what inattentive ADHD is). It took two other adults (teachers in her outside programs), plus psychological testing to diagnose her, so it's not just me saying it...

Edited August 14, 2011 by littleWMN

[Colleen in NS]

(ETA: I see that the OP has been edited to add the comment about a sub-forum. Glad that was added b/c it does bring some clarity to the purpose of the discussion. When the OP was made there was no mention of a sub-forum and it was not brought up until this post in the thread. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3031714&highlight=sub-forum#post3031714 )

 

You're right!! I remember that the question about sub-forum was not in the OP! I posted my post #5 before the OP got edited, and without knowing that the sub-forum question was the real intention of the OP. And even when I posted #33, I had seen that a sub-forum was being discussed, but I still thought that was a side issue. No wonder I didn't get an answer to my post #33 - my post #5 was just a description meant to answer the unedited OP, and I didn't clue in to the edited OP until today! Glad you brought that edit to our attention. My post #5 and #33 must seem ridiculous to posters who posted after the OP edit, and who were answering the real question about the sub-forum! :lol: Oh well, at least I answered the question in the first paragraph of the OP. And I know autism falls under "spectrum," so I know that I KNEW when I was answering about my friend's son.

[Guest]

Okay, I think this post just rocked my world.

 

 

There was a giant VSL thread about a month ago in which lots of posters discussed visual-spatial learners and their processing, numerous people talked about their kids and themselves or their spouses as VSLs, VSL teaching techniques, etc. Jackie had some wonderful posts on that thread you would probably find enlightening and which would confirm what you're thinking about your dd.

 

It wasn't labeled VSL in the thread title, because it began as something related that included VSL and a number of other kinds of ways nontraditional kids learned. I'll try to post a link:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290019&highlight=VSL

[peacefully]

.

[Guest]

This is an interesting idea. Something just popped into my head about being inclusive, in particular with regard to 2E. Where the weaknesses and strengths tend to "cancel each other out", some parents may be completely unaware of that, and might not think to visit a "2E" board (e.g., the same way they may not think to visit the SN board for the weekly post "my __ y.o. can't read"). But they might notice that regular classical methods are not working for them in one or more areas, and might be open to "alternatives."

 

I put together some of what people have been saying into a request for a "Nontraditional Learners" sub-forum and sent it to the moderators before these last threads popped up. If anyone thinks that not be the best title, she could PM the moderators with alternative suggestions. "Nontraditional learners" is not going to cover everything, but it was as wide a term as any that came up in the course of the threads on all three boards, while still being fairly clear (I hope) about the specific kinds of kids/issues. I hope the sub-forum description will include a list I attached, mentioning 2e, VSLs, independent learning/instruction resistant, dyslexia, etc. Jackie, do you think it could use the addition of something like "alternative classical" still?

[littleWMN]

While I don't think that my ds is as VS as yours, this is my kiddo. He needs the big picture. He doesn't tolerate incremental instruction. At. All. It's like he doesn't have anything to hook the little bits on to, and they just float away into the ether. On the other hand, if he's allowed to just immerse himself in his interests, he goes so much deeper than anything that I would expect him to do. He tends to have interests that are pretty conventionally "academic," but his way of getting there tends to be "non-standard," to say the least.

 

The thing is that while I recognize that this is my kid's mode of learning, it doesn't make it any easier for me to help him along this path. I'm sort of a big picture person myself, and it is making me nuts that there is no road map for a kid like this. I don't easily make decisions about my next step until I can picture the overall destination, and I don't understand what sort of educational model makes sense for a 2E kid like my son. It helps though to hear about the approaches that you and the other "alternative" moms have taken.

 

I can't wait for you to write detailed posts about how writing is going. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: Totally true here too with the bolded!!

 

I'm debating scrapping everything and going with task cards and then we can fulfill those with whatever books she chooses.... hmmm. I'll keep VP self-paced history, she loves that. Oh dear... we start school on Monday and I've been wracking my brain on what to do differently. What will make school less of a head-hanging CHORE for her. When I do child-led learning, she does great!! I just can't figure out HOW to do that and touch on everything we need. The good news is that she knows how to research. She's good at that - so am I. When we are interested and motivated, we dive right in. Other things just don't "stick".

 

KarenAnne - thanks... will go read now.

[Corraleno]

WOW! So interesting! Seriously... my head is whirling from this. She does read fiction but she'll enjoy a Magic Treehouse book when it's way below her level. I do realize she's reading for pleasure, but I'd like her to read more challenging things. Her comprehension also tests high (above 95%tile) so I know it's not that. She spouts off random facts from encyclopedias. She does have some sensory issues, but not off the chart or anything. But she was a sensory seeker as a toddler/preschooler. Actually she probably still is, but it's much more manageable. She had the worst fits of all my kids. She was terribly strong-willed. Actually, I'm seeing glimpes of her in my toddler and it scares me, though he's starting the tantrums at 17 months and she was 9 months. ;)

 

For math... we'll, we've hopped. I've finally realized it's not the curriculum but sticking to something. We've landed on CLE b/c that's the only thing she likes. We hired a tutor this summer b/c I was at my wit's end. She's a "drill and kill" tutor and if anything, it's just frustrated her more. It hasn't helped, but it HAS shown me that it's not just my lack of teaching skills. I don't really know how to explain her troubles in math. She doesn't do well with sequencing. She couldn't add well when she was younger but figured out multiplication on her own. :001_huh: She seems to be doing fine and then will take 2 steps backwards. She does not have her basic facts down. At times she can spout them off effortlessly and other times she takes 30 seconds to recall 4 + 1. I just really don't know what to do. Her biggest problem is multiple step "anything" - addition, subtraction, multiplication. She doesn't seem to struggle with concepts too much (like fractions), but she's definitely not "mathy" and doesn't think in mathematical terms. I really think it's that she doesn't value it. That is EXACTLY how I was. The "emotional connection" thing really hit home with me when I read it. I almost cried. That fits me to a tee. I think it frustrates me that she is this way and then I realize that *I* am this way and that frustrates me even further..... :bigear:

 

eta: honestly, I don't know if she's really inattentive ADHD now or not. She's just lost in her own thoughts (or maybe that is what inattentive ADHD is). It took two other adults (teachers in her outside programs), plus psychological testing to diagnose her, so it's not just me saying it...

I think a LOT of kids who are diagnosed with inattentive ADD are VSLs with low dopamine issues. VSLs also tend to be hyper aware of their environment and spatialize so many different sensations: the sound of the lawn mower outside the window, the itchy tag at the back of their neck, the way their shoe is pinching their sock, the flicker of the overhead light (that no one else sees), the kid next to them who's chewing gum too loudly, the bright-colored poster on the wall in front of them, etc. It's already hard for them to pay attention, and if you add in a low dopamine issue, it's extremely difficult to tune out all those other sensations and focus on just one thing in front of you — especially when it's a boring textbook or worksheet in a subject you hate! I think the need for engagement comes partly from the fact that when you do something enjoyable, your body releases dopamine, which improves your focus and concentration. Hence the "paradox" of the supposedly "attention deficient" kid who can't focus on math for more than 5 minutes, but who can spend 6 hours concentrating on building an elaborate lego construction or observing an ant hill and designing numerous experiments.

 

Regarding math... I wouldn't make your DD memorize math facts out of context. My DS was so incredibly frustrated by that, he described it in terms of having all the answers in his head, but they were written on little scraps of paper scattered all over the floor, and whenever he had to recall one, a little man would run all over frantically turning over the scraps of paper looking for the right one. I just let him use a chart when he did math, and he learned them by using them in context. Games like Mythmatical Battles helped, too. I've also found that he does better with fewer, harder, more conceptual problems, rather than lots of drill and repetition. For him, drill and repetition are pure torture, and he really doesn't need it to get the concepts.

 

Have you ever read the Eides' Mislabeled Child? Best book on 2e kids, hands down. They have a great blog, too; check out this video.

 

These kids are definitely hard to parent, but once I started working with the way DS learns, instead of against it, I've found him really easy to homeschool!

 

Jackie

Edited August 14, 2011 by Corraleno
typos

[peacefully]

.

[J'etudie]

.

Edited November 23, 2012 by In Light of Eternity

[Guest]

I'm almost at the point of being able to say, "We can go with that." It is soooo hard to move out of my box, the one that aligned perfectly with ps standards and made me the model of a ps success story. Right now I'm in a place where I know traditional approaches won't work, but I can't let go of thinking, "We can deviate here for awhile as long as we get back to the box in the end." You know, the whole how will they succeed in college thing. So we do things differently, but my mind races ahead to how we can still squeeze in the entire Singapore series in addition to our discovery projects. And then I ruin everything.

 

 

I started a thread on the high school board this past week about imagining what we would do differently with our kids if there were no "fear factors" regarding college admissions and "being competitive."

 

And this is another area in which a sub-forum would be so welcome, because the high school boards revolve around a particular model of competitiveness that is definitely related to "what other kids from good schools are going to be doing or having on their transcripts." I was fine doing things differently right through eighth grade or so. I still do them differently, but now I worry about it more because of the pervasive cultural and educational pressures that surround me and which advocate a model dd CANNOT fit: or at least, cannot fit without dire consequences. There's a lot of discussion on the regular boards to the effect that yes, of course you can do discovery-based learning, as a supplement, or "outside" of class time. But there's definitely an overwhelming belief that this cannot possible form the basis of a legitimate, rigorous, and demanding education.

 

My dd is not entirely a VSL, but she shares so many of their characteristics. When Jackie wrote about VSL's tendencies to be hyper-aware of the smallest aspects of their environment and have trouble focusing, I was reminded vividly of one morning in winter when dd was younger. We were sitting at the table working on something, all the windows and doors shut, the heater on... and dd became completely frazzled, saying, "What's that noise? What's that noise?" over and over. It wasn't the refrigerator humming (which used to bother her too) or the heater or the dog breathing. It was, when we finally figured it out, a plastic bag that had snagged on a bush in the back yard and was flapping in the breeze. I kid you not. She heard that through double-paned windows, and she couldn't tune it out.

 

About needing some kind of individual engagement or "hook": like Jackie, I did not do formal grammar with dd whatsoever. She went up to junior high knowing the parts of speech from MadLibs and punctuation conventions from her reading and from silly books like The Book of "Unnecessary" Quotation Marks or Lynn Truss's picure books.

 

She came to Latin, and therefore to grammar, after becoming addicted to the old British show Yes Minister. One of her favorite characters, a rather clueless geek, kept talking at inane moments about declensions and cases, so she thought she'd like to learn what those were. She's now embarked on self-initiated Latin studies, which thrill her.

 

Meanwhile, we study language mostly through stylistics, and this is because I follow her lead. She resisted grammar studies although she is NOT a rebellious child; and this is the kind of contradiction that parents of neurotypical kids do not understand. She resisted them, I can see in hindsight, because she was trying to protect her passionate love for language, the rhythms of speech, the quirks and oddities of diction, the elegance of style, from the intrusion of grammatical studies. And I believe she had the perfect right to do so, to defend herself against a well-intended but completely inappropriate educational approach.

 

As she writes perfectly grammatically, I followed her lead. She keeps a notebook of favorite quotations -- now nearly 70 pages -- and at her request I keep one too. We read favorites aloud to one another and discuss the elements of the sentences that interest her. The things I pick are very different from what she likes, so we have a nice built-in contrast system.

 

We read the Errors column in the New York Times, which is a kind of grown-up version of the silly "Unnecessary" Quotation Marks books she adored as a kid (still does). It's grammar, but it's not incremental and repetitious; nor does it focus on very elementary kinds of errors that she has never made.

 

Her writing is also still interest-led, at 15. I don't want to even go into this until there's a sub-forum, because I can just imagine what kinds of responses would pop up otherwise. But I look forward to having a place where we can go into greater detail about how we work with our kids, in an environment of understanding and connection.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Guest

[Corraleno]

I've said the bolded countless times about my ds. He really isn't rebelling against it. It just really doesn't help him.

Yep. I can make my DS sit there and do 40 math problems, I can make him fill in grammar worksheets, his 3rd grade teacher made him do narration & dictation every day. He wouldn't learn anything, though — other than a deep hatred of math, grammar, and reading. It's not that he's rebellious or defiant, it's just that those things do. not. work. And it's frustrating when people who don't have kids like this imply that our kids are just manipulating us, or trying to get out of the work, and that they need to be made to just suck it up and do it.

 

 

I'm almost at the point of being able to say, "We can go with that." It is soooo hard to move out of my box, the one that aligned perfectly with ps standards and made me the model of a ps success story. Right now I'm in a place where I know traditional approaches won't work, but I can't let go of thinking, "We can deviate here for awhile as long as we get back to the box in the end." You know, the whole how will they succeed in college thing. So we do things differently, but my mind races ahead to how we can still squeeze in the entire Singapore series in addition to our discovery projects. And then I ruin everything.

 

I'm afraid he'll build a gorgeous building that won't provide him with shelter in the "real world." But I'm starting to see that being tortured over math (when he has an amazing grasp of the concepts) and pained by writing answers in grammar worksheets (when he loves language and even diagramming!) cannot be the right path. It just can't.

 

The past year has been one of many discoveries about ds. And lots of tears. If I only I had known years ago that he had SPD, for exampe, how different it could have been. Life didn't have to be so hard. And that's all referring to emotional issues, bathroom issues, etc. I want to change directions with academic issues so that I don't look back some day and think how different it could have been.

I think a lot of people fear getting out of the box because they think their kids will make crazy choices that look nothing like "school" — playing video games all day or reading nothing but manga or something. You will often hear that if kids are allowed to follow their interests, they'll choose fluff, they'll stay in their comfort zone and never push themselves, they'll never learn to work hard at boring things, so they won't be prepared for college. My experience has been exactly the opposite.

 

Given more control over his education, DS has pushed himself much farther than I ever would have. He dropped an easy Spanish program and chose Athenaze Greek instead — despite being dyslexic, despite being told that it would be very difficult for him. He's watched hundreds of hours of Teaching Company lectures and reads adult level books on ancient history and classical warfare — including Herodotus and Thucydides. This formerly reluctant (at best) reader is now a voracious reader. He designs and carries out his own science experiments, watches science documentaries, reads science books, does research online, reads obscure articles on paleontology and does anywhere from 50-100 hours of paleo fieldwork every year. He's decided to learn programming this year, and wants to really work on his drawing technique, especially scientific illustration. He invented a civilization, complete with a writing and number system, culture, mythology, history, clothing & jewelry, weapons & technology, housing, etc., which he records in a sketchbook. This kid who hates to write is thinking of writing a novel about his civilization.

 

I think your son will surprise you. Let the reins out a little at a time if that makes you feel more comfortable, but it's actually quite pleasant out here, outside the box. Ignore the maps that say "there be dragons!" ;)

 

Jackie

[Guest]

I think a lot of people fear getting out of the box because they think their kids will make crazy choices that look nothing like "school" — playing video games all day or reading nothing but manga or something. You will often hear that if kids are allowed to follow their interests, they'll choose fluff, they'll stay in their comfort zone and never push themselves, they'll never learn to work hard at boring things, so they won't be prepared for college. My experience has been exactly the opposite.

 

 

I took dd to the bookstore this past summer and told her to choose books for "school." She stunned me by requesting the unabridged Don Quixote, in an 18th-century translation, making a reading schedule for herself, and finishing the entire thing in about eight weeks. What is more, she thought it was funny. She then went through The Portrait of Dorian Gray and is now reading Emma.

 

The stickiest thing for me has been science. Dd has an assemblage of visual-spatial and fine motor issues that make labs, particular chem labs that require flame even in so tame a thing as a candle or small alcohol burner, very frightening; for this reason lots of things are ruled out including outside classes with labs. She likes physics, but has not opened any of the books I bought her, from textbooks to trade books; nor has she found the Teaching Company DVDs as good a fit for science as she has for history and literature. She's not the kind of kid who's going to do science experiments on her own, although she used to do that as a younger child. Her turn of mind now is more theoretical, or perhaps hands-off is a better word for it. She wants to know how things work, but she doesn't want to take them apart, mess with them, or watch DVDs about them.

 

I finally gave up this summer and just have been sitting biting my nails but not asking anything of her.

 

So, she recalled that she had loved and read through three really idiosyncratic books by Terry Pratchett which intertwined a fantasy story with chapters on hard science by a well known British mathematician and a scientist. She looked up their other books, read bits and pieces on-line, and came up with her request for "The Collapse of Chaos" by Ian Stewart.

 

I looked at this book and I don't understand one single thing. It isn't easily categorizable science, it isn't a textbook, it's just really unusual. I never would have even considered handing this book to dd. And dd set herself up a schedule and is plowing through it. When I ask, she says, "Well, I don't always understand everything, but it's REALLY INTERESTING."

 

How long can I let her go like this without feeling constrained to rope her back into something that resembles conventional schooling? I don't know. I'd love to talk about this issue, too, in much more depth if the sub-forum gets approved; I don't feel entirely comfortable doing so now.

[Corraleno]

She looked up their other books, read bits and pieces on-line, and came up with her request for "The Collapse of Chaos" by Ian Stewart.

 

I looked at this book and I don't understand one single thing. It isn't easily categorizable science, it isn't a textbook, it's just really unusual. I never would have even considered handing this book to dd. And dd set herself up a schedule and is plowing through it. When I ask, she says, "Well, I don't always understand everything, but it's REALLY INTERESTING."

 

How long can I let her go like this without feeling constrained to rope her back into something that resembles conventional schooling?

The Stewart book looks awesome — I've added it to my wishlist. Did you know the Teaching Co has courses on Chaos and Complexity? (PM me if you're interested.) You could add the TC courses and a couple of other books for a half-credit course (e.g. Chaos, Complexity, and Emergent Systems), or incorporate them into a History of Science course, fold them into another math or science course (e.g. Physics, Mathematical Modeling), etc. DH has lots of books on complexity and emergence, I can look through them and see if any would be accessible (and interesting enough) for her.

 

Jackie

[Guest]

The Stewart book looks awesome — I've added it to my wishlist. Did you know the Teaching Co has courses on Chaos and Complexity? (PM me if you're interested.) You could add the TC courses and a couple of other books for a half-credit course (e.g. Chaos, Complexity, and Emergent Systems), or incorporate them into a History of Science course, fold them into another math or science course (e.g. Physics, Mathematical Modeling), etc. DH has lots of books on complexity and emergence, I can look through them and see if any would be accessible (and interesting enough) for her.

 

Jackie

 

PMing now...

[Guest]

OMG! This is my ds! I'm finding it to be so weird and such a relief to have this flash of recognition. It's like... oh, I don't know... being a traveler in foreign land and suddenly running into someone from your own country. It's almost a moot point whether you have anything else in common. It's just such a relief to be speaking the same language!

 

 

I spent much of my first year on the boards feeling like something was terribly wrong with me. No one's experiences seemed to be anything like my own. It was worse on the high school board than on other forums. I felt like an alien, truly.

 

Then I stumbled across a few threads, and started a few of my own, and met people like Corraleno and Nan and JennW, who made me feel sane for the first time in years, because, quite simply, THEY KNEW. As you say, it's like finding someone who speaks the same language: you feel that you've found someone who knows your kid and knows what it's like to work with them even though none of us have met.

 

It would be lovely not to have to go through so much stumbling, so much isolation, so much anxiety, so much criticism, to find a place where everyone speaks that language. How many of us have hung out on the boards for years and are just now saying, "Oh, there are other people who understand"?

Edited August 14, 2011 by Guest

[wapiti]

I have a 2E-ish/VSL-ish question, but for elementary or logic level. Which board would be best to post it on, accelerated or SN? (It would be about brainstorming ideas on both big-picture-first and hard-is-easy/easy-is-hard aspects, and how you might tweak specific curricula - or a WTM approach more generally - for that. I'm thinking about order of lessons, lesson presentation, etc.)

[Corraleno]

I have a 2E-ish/VSL-ish question, but for elementary or logic level. Which board would be best to post it on, accelerated or SN? (It would be about brainstorming ideas on both big-picture-first and hard-is-easy/easy-is-hard aspects, and how you might tweak specific curricula - or a WTM approach more generally - for that. I'm thinking about order of lessons, lesson presentation, etc.)

 

I'd probably put it on the either the logic board or the accelerated board and just PM anyone whose input you want who doesn't see it — but this really illustrates why a subforum for "nontraditional learners" would be so useful!

 

Jackie