SonshineLearner Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (and maybe see communion a bit differently?) Weird question, but do you have people at your church who don't believe in infant baptism? There's an EO church about 1/2 hr and I've thought about going there for a visit. I have been to an EO church more than once, and the service is beautiful. I think I must be Catholic or EO at heart. I just don't believe in infant baptism, and communion... I see a little different. But, are these more important than the fact that I like the service? ok.... sorry to be off topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 But, are these more important than the fact that I like the service? Yes, they are more important than the fact that you like the service. They are basic and integral parts of Catholic and Orthodox doctrine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I agree with Ellie, those are fundamental beliefs. Of course you are welcome to go to the service but it would not be appropriate to receive communion. Personally, I came at this first from the belief that the RCC is the *Church* and that it was my job to submit and then I researched the doctrines, history and traditions and aligned my beliefs with the Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) (and maybe see communion a bit differently?) Weird question, but do you have people at your church who don't believe in infant baptism? There's an EO church about 1/2 hr and I've thought about going there for a visit. I have been to an EO church more than once, and the service is beautiful. I think I must be Catholic or EO at heart. I just don't believe in infant baptism, and communion... I see a little different. But, are these more important than the fact that I like the service? ok.... sorry to be off topic... Carrie, I have found, in our inquiry/conversion into Eastern Orthodoxy, that there's no rush and no pressure. Remembering back to before our baptism, there were and still are things unique to this faith that I'm not fully understanding. But as I've become more and more convinced of the place of the Church in the life of the Christian, and the history/faithfulness/unchangingness of the Orthodox church, the more I'm able to trust Her, and the doctrines, sacraments and practices she has given us as a gift. As said above, infant baptism and the Eucharist are basic, fundamental practices ~ but these are areas I used to believe differently, too. I've learned to trust the church with them, and now see the value (practically and spiritually) of them. Have you considered making an appointment and talking with a priest? Most would be very willing and helpful in addressing your concerns and see what they mean for attending the church. You're also welcome to PM me or visit the Exploring Orthodoxy subgroup here at WTM with any questions or to talk about the concerns you have. HTH. ETA -- Just reread your original post, Carrie, and of course you can attend without believing in these things. Come! If you ever wanted to convert, you'd have to talk with a priest about your beliefs and see where you stand and what it means. But as for attending, come. As said above, you wouldn't be able to receive the Eucharist, but that's because you're not Orthodox, not because of your beliefs in these areas (there will also likely be some Orthodox who don't receive each week, either, for different reasons; you won't stand out in not going forward). Edited August 8, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I'm not EO. I hope you don't mind me butting in. The two sacraments (Milovany, are they sacraments in the EO?) you have issues about are really pretty basic to the faith. If you are looking to convert pray for guidance and wisdom. Ask specifically for help coming to terms with infant baptism and communion. (If it will help I can give you Bible verses to support both.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) I'm not EO. I hope you don't mind me butting in. The two sacraments (Milovany, are they sacraments in the EO?) you have issues about are really pretty basic to the faith. If you are looking to convert pray for guidance and wisdom. Ask specifically for help coming to terms with infant baptism and communion. Yes, they are sacramental. I don't think Orthodoxy has a set number of sacraments (that's part of the "mystery" -- because of the Incarnation, all of life is sacramental, you know?), but these two are sacramental in the way we typically think of sacraments. Edited August 8, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I am kind of butting in here, too. Hope that's okay. It seems to me that it's as important as you make it. My husband was baptized as an infant in the Catholic church, and if you became a member of the Catholic church, I think you would need to support that tradition. That being said, my husband was also baptized again (not at a Catholic church) when he was adult. Not because he thought he had to, or because the first one didn't count, but it was very meaningful for him. It was a decision he made on his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 What everyone else said. They are very integral. Coming from a Baptistic background, to Reformed, to EO, the views on Baptism and Communion are ENTIRELY different than the views held by Baptists. It's not just who and when. It's the WHY and WHAT it is (aka we don't see these two things as simply symbolic and they line up as being covenantal, more like circumcision is within Judaism). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I could not fathom our EO church being anything but welcoming to you. There is no rush!!!! Many things I had issues with, I only understood through time and experience. Come as you are. None of us have any idea how are beliefs may progress. I also had issues with many of the sacraments, one of the ones you mention I still struggle with. Here is how I handle it in myself. I accept that EO believes it as true. I accept that it does me or anyone else no real harm to hold the belief (In fact I have seen quite the opposite, it does people good). Therefore, I am an in openminded position to see how God massages my own heart on the issue. Basically, my mind is not against...just waiting patiently for some divine revelation. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I am kind of butting in here, too. Hope that's okay. It seems to me that it's as important as you make it. My husband was baptized as an infant in the Catholic church, and if you became a member of the Catholic church, I think you would need to support that tradition. That being said, my husband was also baptized again (not at a Catholic church) when he was adult. Not because he thought he had to, or because the first one didn't count, but it was very meaningful for him. It was a decision he made on his own. Although I understand what you are saying, I understand it from a non-Catholic Christian POV. :-) In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, it has everything to do with basic, fundamental doctrine of the church. Someone who does not think it's all that important would not be able to truly enter either of those churches, although of course she would be welcome to attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Although I understand what you are saying, I understand it from a non-Catholic Christian POV. :-) In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, it has everything to do with basic, fundamental doctrine of the church. Someone who does not think it's all that important would not be able to truly enter either of those churches, although of course she would be welcome to attend. Yes, you are probably right. Sigh. It's just that the older I get, the more I realize that NO church is perfect. You will probably NEVER agree with everything that a particular church preaches. You just have to choose the one that matches your own beliefs, best, if you truly desire to be part of a church community. But I do understand that certain sacraments are integral to a particular denomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Yes, they are sacramental. I don't think Orthodoxy has a set number of sacraments (that's part of the "mystery" -- because of the Incarnation, all of life is sacramental, you know?), but these two are sacramental in the way we typically think of sacraments. Thank you for the explanation. I should read up on it some since I only kind of get what you have in parenthesis. Not to convert, mind you. Just because I think it is important to understand these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happygrrl Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thank you for the explanation. I should read up on it some since I only kind of get what you have in parenthesis. Not to convert, mind you. Just because I think it is important to understand these things. Have I told you today that you rock? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 If you love the service, and are drawn to it, you should attend. You don't have to agree with all the teachings to attend and participate in the corporate prayers and hymns. We are inquirers of the EO Church, and we are able to pray, sing, venerate icons, attend classes, participate in fellowship, etc. without being converted, yet. My dh is not fully aligned with all the teachings of the O. Church, yet he participates in many ways. It's a journey - there's no rush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thank you for the explanation. I should read up on it some since I only kind of get what you have in parenthesis. Not to convert, mind you. Just because I think it is important to understand these things. Here you go! :001_smile: At least it's one article on the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartosunshine Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (and maybe see communion a bit differently?) Weird question, but do you have people at your church who don't believe in infant baptism? There's an EO church about 1/2 hr and I've thought about going there for a visit. I have been to an EO church more than once, and the service is beautiful. I think I must be Catholic or EO at heart. I just don't believe in infant baptism, and communion... I see a little different. But, are these more important than the fact that I like the service? ok.... sorry to be off topic... By all means, if you enjoy the services, then attend! I attended the Greek Orthodox church for almost 5 years before converting and I always felt welcomed. Thank you for the explanation. I should read up on it some since I only kind of get what you have in parenthesis. Not to convert, mind you. Just because I think it is important to understand these things. Here's a link to the Greek Orthodox Sacraments: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7105 :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Have I told you today that you rock? :D Between you and nono I'm going to get a big head. As it is I've been :D all afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Here you go! :001_smile: At least it's one article on the topic. Thank you, ma'am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Here's a link to the Greek Orthodox Sacraments: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7105 :D Thanks a bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (and maybe see communion a bit differently?) Weird question, but do you have people at your church who don't believe in infant baptism? There's an EO church about 1/2 hr and I've thought about going there for a visit. I have been to an EO church more than once, and the service is beautiful. I think I must be Catholic or EO at heart. I just don't believe in infant baptism, and communion... I see a little different. But, are these more important than the fact that I like the service? ok.... sorry to be off topic... One more thing. I wonder if it's not like driving a car. You're in your car decide to turn on the radio. You reach out your right hand and do it. You meet someone one day who has a car you love but they tell you that to drive it you must turn on the radio with your left hand. You're shocked. That's dangerous and irresponsible. You could never do that. But you get in the car anyway. Just to have a seat. It's such a lovely car. And then you realize the steering wheel is on the right side of the car and all of a sudden the requirement to use your left hand makes perfect sense and you can, in good conscience, do it in that car. In short, you may feel called to the EO church but initially disagree with some things. But in time you may start to understand it's different view of infant baptism and realize that in the context of the EO, it's something that makes perfect sense and that you can embrace. I'm not EO or RC but I'd encourage you to go if you're curious and feel drawn to them. Don't accept communion as others have said. And then just give it time. See if your understanding shifts. None of us are unchanging stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) I wonder if it's not like driving a car. You're in your car decide to turn on the radio. You reach out your right hand and do it. You meet someone one day who has a car you love but they tell you that to drive it you must turn on the radio with your left hand. You're shocked. That's dangerous and irresponsible. You could never do that. But you get in the car anyway. Just to have a seat. It's such a lovely car. And then you realize the steering wheel is on the right side of the car and all of a sudden the requirement to use your left hand makes perfect sense and you can, in good conscience, do it in that car. In short, you may feel called to the EO church but initially disagree with some things. But in time you may start to understand it's different view of infant baptism and realize that in the context of the EO, it's something that makes perfect sense and that you can embrace. I have to say, I love that analogy. Especially the part about how using the left hand to turn on the radio makes sense in a car that's built differently. The Orthodox (and Catholic) churches are built differently, and in our context, the sacraments have to be the way they are because of the way the rest of the "car" is built. But that doesn't mean anyone who's not Orthodox can't come and enjoy the ride for awhile. They don't have to fiddle with the radio at all. ;) Edited August 9, 2011 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 One more thing. I wonder if it's not like driving a car. You're in your car decide to turn on the radio. You reach out your right hand and do it. You meet someone one day who has a car you love but they tell you that to drive it you must turn on the radio with your left hand. You're shocked. That's dangerous and irresponsible. You could never do that. But you get in the car anyway. Just to have a seat. It's such a lovely car. And then you realize the steering wheel is on the right side of the car and all of a sudden the requirement to use your left hand makes perfect sense and you can, in good conscience, do it in that car. In short, you may feel called to the EO church but initially disagree with some things. But in time you may start to understand it's different view of infant baptism and realize that in the context of the EO, it's something that makes perfect sense and that you can embrace. I'm not EO or RC but I'd encourage you to go if you're curious and feel drawn to them. Don't accept communion as others have said. And then just give it time. See if your understanding shifts. None of us are unchanging stone. You are absolutely amazing. That was brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thank you for the explanation. I should read up on it some since I only kind of get what you have in parenthesis. Not to convert, mind you. Just because I think it is important to understand these things. read Splendor in the Ordinary; Your Home as a Holy Place by Thomas Howard. Sophia Press, Catholic. Mind altering. Gimme a bit and I'll finish up my blog post on it-with quotes. It's worth buying the used copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmericanMom Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I wonder if it's not like driving a car. You're in your car decide to turn on the radio. You reach out your right hand and do it. You meet someone one day who has a car you love but they tell you that to drive it you must turn on the radio with your left hand. You're shocked. That's dangerous and irresponsible. You could never do that. But you get in the car anyway. Just to have a seat. It's such a lovely car. And then you realize the steering wheel is on the right side of the car and all of a sudden the requirement to use your left hand makes perfect sense and you can, in good conscience, do it in that car. Beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 read Splendor in the Ordinary; Your Home as a Holy Place by Thomas Howard. Sophia Press, Catholic. Mind altering. Gimme a bit and I'll finish up my blog post on it-with quotes. It's worth buying the used copy. I think I just got my next book rec! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 read Splendor in the Ordinary; Your Home as a Holy Place by Thomas Howard. Sophia Press, Catholic. Mind altering. Gimme a bit and I'll finish up my blog post on it-with quotes. It's worth buying the used copy. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartosunshine Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 One more thing. I wonder if it's not like driving a car. You're in your car decide to turn on the radio. You reach out your right hand and do it. You meet someone one day who has a car you love but they tell you that to drive it you must turn on the radio with your left hand. You're shocked. That's dangerous and irresponsible. You could never do that. But you get in the car anyway. Just to have a seat. It's such a lovely car. And then you realize the steering wheel is on the right side of the car and all of a sudden the requirement to use your left hand makes perfect sense and you can, in good conscience, do it in that car. In short, you may feel called to the EO church but initially disagree with some things. But in time you may start to understand it's different view of infant baptism and realize that in the context of the EO, it's something that makes perfect sense and that you can embrace. I'm not EO or RC but I'd encourage you to go if you're curious and feel drawn to them. Don't accept communion as others have said. And then just give it time. See if your understanding shifts. None of us are unchanging stone. Beautifully said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Thanks you guys. I was worried the analogy was a little flaky. Analogies are my thing but sometimes I take them too far and people look at me like I've just sprouted donkey ears. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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