jenbrdsly Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I am hoping that other parents out there might be interested in reading and discussing The Well Trained Mind chapter by chapter. Of course it would be so much better to start a local book group in my area, but who has the time? Here are my thoughts about Chapter 1: Unchartered Territory http://teachingmybabytoread.blog.com/2011/07/08/the-well-trained-mind-thoughts-from-chapter-1/ I am hoping people add their two cents to this thread, or onto the comment section of my blog. The WTM is an excellent read, and has much to offer parents involved in all types of schooling situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I wrote a long comment, and your spam filter ate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firestar Academy Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 now I want to go get the book, too! and follow along with you. robin edited to add: yup, picking it up at my library on monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 I wrote a long comment, and your spam filter ate it. I think I saved it! You wrote about memorization and gave me a lot to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yes, that was me. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I reread chapter 1 tonight and also left a reply on your blog...but it did not show up either :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJoy Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I reread chapter 1 tonight and also left a reply on your blog...but it did not show up either :( :iagree:Do you have it set up so that you have to approve comments first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 :iagree:Do you have it set up so that you have to approve comments first? I do, sorry! I'll go into my blog dashboard and un-spam it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2denj Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have an older version of WTM, but I think I am going to check the library and follow along with you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I look forward to the discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Why not post the comments on the board as well, or instead, so everyone can read without having to go to a blog? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Why not post the comments on the board as well, or instead, so everyone can read without having to go to a blog? :) :iagree: I'd love to follow along in a discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BakersDozen Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Why not post the comments on the board as well, or instead, so everyone can read without having to go to a blog? :) :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) The things I remember the most from school are the things we memorized. I had an English teacher who taught us to conjugate verbs while singing "Sarah Sponda, Sarah Sponda, Sarah Sponda 'run, ran, run' " in a round in the classroom. It doesn't translate well to text, but it was awesome. I do it with my kids. I can still sing the states in alphabetical order from a song in music class. I can list the forms of be, and the 'helping' verbs from classes where we were expected to do so several times each day. I can remember the poem, "Annabel Lee" by Edgar Allan Poe from having to memorize and recite a poem in 8th grade. My 4th grade teacher made us in the gifted class start each day by filling out a times table to 12 so that we would know them inside and out. And I do. Why not give our kids even more of these nuggets to hold on to. Like others said, trying to memorize poetry doesn't come as easily now as it did then. I want my kids to be bursting with memories of chanting useful things and beautiful poetry and history lists and scripture. I agree with the poster who said it is a different thing than understanding. I understood how to multiply in 4th grade. But making sure that I didn't have to figure out each and every time I needed to figure out a price of something is important too. Instant recall of the info is useful. I think that is where the controvery over memorization comes in, when people think that those who use memorization are using it exclusively. It doesn't mean we aren't also explaining and working with our hands and using other forms of learning. It is just another tool. Edited July 8, 2011 by 2_girls_mommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Why not post the comments on the board as well, or instead, so everyone can read without having to go to a blog? :)OK, here's what I said: I believe the point behind memorization in WTM is that it aids understanding, eventually. A child does not have to understand “amo, amas, amat†before memorizing it; indeed it is unlikely that she will. But as she chants that (enjoying it just as she would a nursery rhyme) it is engraved upon her memory, and as she comes to understand what verb conjugation is, she can call upon it at any time. In such cases, memorization precedes and aids understanding. Similarly, I once heard SWB advocate teaching 7yos to recite the verbs of being: “am are is was were be being been.†Try explaining what those verbs mean to a concretely-thinking 7yo–it very nearly can’t be done. But he can memorize the list, and as he matures and comes to think more abstractly, he has the list in his head, ready to be understood. In memorizing lists of information, such as the continents or the elements found in air, it’s probably half and half–partly understanding and partly getting it in there for long-term understanding. And when it comes to poetry–well, my 6yo can memorize and understand “Purple Cow.†But when my 9yo memorizes “Can I compare thee to a summer’s day,†nearly all of the understanding will occur years later, as she can pull it out of her memory for enjoyment over and over again. When she’s 35 she won’t be able to memorize sonnets very easily, but she will enjoy the bank she has in her mind. I would not call memorization any kind of understanding at all–it’s a different thing entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 The things I remember the most from school are the things we memorized. I had an English teacher who taught us to conjugate verbs while singing "Sarah Sponda, Sarah Sponda, Sarah Sponda 'run, ran, run' " in a round in the classroom. It doesn't translate well to text, but it was awesome. I do it with my kids. I can still sing the states in alphabetical order from a song in music class. I can list the forms of be, and the 'helping' verbs from classes where we were expected to do so several times each day. I can remember the poem, "Annabel Lee" by Edgar Allan Poe from having to memorize and recite a poem in 8th grade. My 4th grade teacher made us in the gifted class start each day by filling out a times table to 12 so that we would know them inside and out. And I do. Why not give our kids even more of these nuggets to hold on to. Like others said, trying to memorize poetry doesn't come as easily now as it did then. I want my kids to be bursting with memories of chanting useful things and beautiful poetry and history lists and scripture. I agree with the poster who said it is a different thing than understanding. I understood how to multiply in 4th grade. But making sure that I didn't have to figure out each and every time I needed to figure out a price of something is important too. Instant recall of the info is useful. I think that is where the controvery over memorization comes in, when people think that those who use memorization are using it exclusively. It doesn't mean we aren't also explaining and working with our hands and using other forms of learning. It is just another tool. I just wanted to be clear, that you aren't suggesting a child would learn the times tables before she understood what multiplication meant, right? I keep wanting to jump ahead in the discussion and go to chapter 6 on math (bad Jenny!), but if you think about what the authors say in chapter 6 it is really different. For math, they talk about making sure kids really understand things from a hands-on perspective if needed, before you move them along. I totally agree with that! But then when they are talking about Language Arts or History type things, they include memorization. It is an interesting contrast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I LOVE this idea and had been wondering why we as a board don't do this. I read the new edition when ti came out and having't looked at it since. So, motivation! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) I just wanted to be clear, that you aren't suggesting a child would learn the times tables before she understood what multiplication meant, right? yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. I obviously didn't re read chapter one to see that it wasn't talking about memorizing math facts yet :) I get a little touchy because sometimes people think we are memorizing only. ETA.. I have done most of the memorizing suggested in WTM with my kiddos, and it is a wondrous thing. It is amazing to see the enjoyment they get out of it, and it only takes a little time each day or lesson period to review. I would say with most things we are not memorizing anything out of context in history or L.A. or Latin. They may not get it fully when they learn a sonnet, but we do discuss it line by line. Edited July 8, 2011 by 2_girls_mommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I LOVE the idea of discussing Susan's book chapter by chapter. I would be so on board, but. . .I think it may be a more worthwhile discussion if everyone reads the book in it's entirety first and then goes back chapter by chapter for discussion. Also -- and I didn't get enough sleep last night and need more caffeine and truly don't mean to offend anyone -- but in just the short comments I read on the Duggars, it strikes me that the OP needs a broader understanding of homeschooling. I'd hate for the chapter by chapter discussion to become, "hey, most of us don't have 19 kids." And, "I live in the south in a super highly ranked school district and still choose to homeschool." I have a good friend who just moved to a new state and the district she's in is supposedly the highest ranked district in the country. She's still homeschooling. Anyway, off to get some coffee. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Count me in! I will reread tonight :D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 I LOVE the idea of discussing Susan's book chapter by chapter. I would be so on board, but. . .I think it may be a more worthwhile discussion if everyone reads the book in it's entirety first and then goes back chapter by chapter for discussion. Also -- and I didn't get enough sleep last night and need more caffeine and truly don't mean to offend anyone -- but in just the short comments I read on the Duggars, it strikes me that the OP needs a broader understanding of homeschooling. I'd hate for the chapter by chapter discussion to become, "hey, most of us don't have 19 kids." And, "I live in the south in a super highly ranked school district and still choose to homeschool." I have a good friend who just moved to a new state and the district she's in is supposedly the highest ranked district in the country. She's still homeschooling. Anyway, off to get some coffee. Alley That's really good to hear that there some great school districts in the south! I think I was referring to page 6 of the book, when JW described their local district as being horrible. My point was a "what if?" type question. What if they had lived in a better district to begin with? Maybe their whole educational trajectory would have been different. It's just a "what if?" question. And of course the Duggars do not represent homeschooling families at large. That's ridiculous. I think too that people should feel free to join in this thread however you want. If this is your first time reading great. First impressions are valued. (This is my second reading of the book.) If this is your third, fourth, or fifth reading of the book that is of course highly valued too, but that doesn't mean those are the only people who should feel comfortable participating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Here is what I wrote (with a spelling/typing error corrected:001_huh:) : "Part of the reason a Classical Education emphasizes memorization in early elementary grades is because of the way our brain works. It is much easier for a child to memorize facts at 7 or 8 than it is for a 16 year old. You fill your child’s head with facts when they are young and then help them understand it as their thinking shifts from concrete to abstract. For example, a 7 year old may not understand all of the factors that led to the American Revolution, but he or she CAN memorize July 4, 1776 and the opening lines of the Declaration of Independence. Kids love to recite poems and nursery rhymes, their brains love rhythm and repetition. The Grammar stage of the Trivium builds on that. We give them the who, what, where, and when. In the logic stage we help them with the why. I compare the Classical Method of Education to my dance training and work as a teacher. I teach my “babies†(2-10ish) the grammar of ballet – plie, tendu, degage and how to execute each step. We learn rhythm and we memorize steps. Their dancing is not fluid and graceful, but they learn a lot of steps! Around 10 or 12, they move into a new stage. They no longer just do the steps, they start to gain better control of their bodies, they no longer just do a step – they dance it! They do become fluid in their movements, they start to understand how the music and movements work together. It is an amazing transition to witness! There is no understanding, if there are no facts to understand first." This will be my second reading of the book. I read the Grammar section about a year ago. I just read the logic and rhetoric sections a couple of months ago. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on the book as we go through it together. I'm ready for chapter 2! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) Regarding the Wise family's unhappiness with their local public schools in the early 1970s... My son and I are reading Bridge to Terrabithia right now, and it was published in 1978. It takes place in a rural area in commutable distance from Washington DC. Boy does it depict public schools in bad shape! I wonder if the author was writing the book at about the same time JW pulled her kids from school. Edited July 10, 2011 by jenbrdsly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 That's really good to hear that there some great school districts in the south! I think I was referring to page 6 of the book, when JW described their local district as being horrible. My point was a "what if?" type question. What if they had lived in a better district to begin with? Maybe their whole educational trajectory would have been different. It's just a "what if?" question. Perhaps if they lived in a wonderful school district where her dc who were already QUITE far ahead of grade level were honored and challenged, then they would have been happy with their school district and they would not have homeschooled, and then maybe SWB wouldn't have homeschooled her dc, and then they wouldn't have written the book, and then many families who do not have access to those wonderful Northern California school districts would have been left hanging in the wind, and this board wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation. :D I was also a gifted student. I went to the best school district in South Jersey (possibly all of NJ), in a town that Reagan described as not needing any help whatsoever in a speech. I could already read in K and I refused to read the readers that were below my level. My teacher let me do whatever I wanted and did not provide anything at my level. All through elementary school I spent my time helping other children, which I loved. On into junior high and I still wasn't challenged. Then in 9th grade English, my teacher told my mom on Back to School night that she was recommending me for honors and let me do what I wanted for the rest of the year. I missed 100 days in 3 years of high school (I went to college early) and was still in the top 10% of my class. It's not just the south; it's not just the schools. For many of us, it's not just about education - it is about learning together as a family. It is the parents having control over their own children's education, as it should be. It's about being involved when one has a large family and can't be in several schools at once to be involved (or when the school doesn't want you there anyway). There are over 130,000 public schools in the United States. That means that at least 64,999 are below average. It would be helpful for future discussion if we could agree that not all public schools are quality schools, even though all the ones you've worked in have been, and move on from there. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grace'smom Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 This may not be in the first chapter of WTM, so I'm probably getting off track, but I think SWB partially addresses the state of American education in her WWE teacher text. She talks about students who are in honors programs, etc. coming into her lit classes without knowing how to write a good paper. She works at William and Mary. It's NOT a community college. It's an elite school and they still get children who are unable to write properly. Maybe her children would have been better off in another school system, but it wouldn't have solved the problems of American education today. It's not just about school district. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeaganS Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I don't really have much to say except that I will be following along and reading too. I also love the idea of making memorization a priority. I feel like I was ill-served because of how little memorization I was required to do, and want my children to have those tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeaganS Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 This may not be in the first chapter of WTM' date=' so I'm probably getting off track, but I think SWB partially addresses the state of American education in her WWE teacher text. She talks about students who are in honors programs, etc. coming into her lit classes without knowing how to write a good paper. She works at William and Mary. It's NOT a community college. It's an elite school and they still get children who are unable to write properly. Maybe her children would have been better off in another school system, but it wouldn't have solved the problems of American education today. It's not just about school district.[/quote'] I was an "honors," student with high ACT scores and high GPA and I still can't write a good essay to save my life, and that's after getting my degree at a highly ranked university. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 The Wise children were withdrawn from a private school, weren't they? Anyhow, I think it would be a rare school that could accommodate an advanced student to the degree Jessie Wise was able to do at home. GATE programs might be good in some schools, but they are still within public schools. Classical is a completely different approach. No GATE program in the 70's (or today?) is going to have the child learning Latin in elementary school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi @ Mt Hope Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I left a comment, but it, too, disappeared. Maybe it will show up later. :) I have experienced first-hand this year how memorization precedes understanding. My boys were involved with Classical Conversations. They memorized so. much. information. They loved it. (My 6yo boy-boy declared history sentences to be his favorite 'subject' of the year.) Over and over again they showed enthusiasm (and increased understanding) over a book, conversation, or movie which referenced something they had already memorized. *I* learned facts and vocabulary which had previously eluded me through my years of education, and subsequently understood all sorts of things. I think that expecting understanding without first learning the vocabulary of a subject (facts, dates, definitions, people, events, conjugations, etc.) is like trying to cook a delicious meal without ingredients. Certainly putting ingredients together to make something wonderful is a higher skill than knowing what a radish is, but a good cook *knows* his ingredients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grace'smom Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I was an "honors," student with high ACT scores and high GPA and I still can't write a good essay to save my life, and that's after getting my degree at a highly ranked university. :iagree: Same here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosy Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 In addition to what has been said, I think memorization is seen as a foundation upon which the higher forms of understanding are built. Memorization is not done for its own sake, but a child who memorizes the U.S. presidents will have a context later on for why certain ones made the decisions they made. Also, the idea with poetry memorization is that it shapes the mind and thoughts....just like how a healthy diet of South Park will make one think crass thoughts. As far as the Duggars...I do not agree with a lot of what they do, but I do think that many times an older sibling can teach a younger sibling and both will benefit from the experience. I try to have my oldest help the younger kids with various parts of their education. I think with some direction and supervision she probably has the ability to teach her 1st grade sister's entire curriculum (FYI, I don't have her do this). Homeschooling young ones really isn't that hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi @ Mt Hope Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 In addition to what has been said, I think memorization is seen as a foundation upon which the higher forms of understanding are built. Memorization is not done for its own sake, but a child who memorizes the U.S. presidents will have a context later on for why certain ones made the decisions they made. Also, the idea with poetry memorization is that it shapes the mind and thoughts....just like how a healthy diet of South Park will make one think crass thoughts. . :iagree: Not only does memorizing poetry shape the mind and thoughts, but it imbeds sophisticated vocabulary and language patterns in the mind. I love Andrew Pudewa's essay about poetry memorization here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 Perhaps if they lived in a wonderful school district where her dc who were already QUITE far ahead of grade level were honored and challenged, then they would have been happy with their school district and they would not have homeschooled, and then maybe SWB wouldn't have homeschooled her dc, and then they wouldn't have written the book, and then many families who do not have access to those wonderful Northern California school districts would have been left hanging in the wind, and this board wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation. :D I was also a gifted student. I went to the best school district in South Jersey (possibly all of NJ), in a town that Reagan described as not needing any help whatsoever in a speech. I could already read in K and I refused to read the readers that were below my level. My teacher let me do whatever I wanted and did not provide anything at my level. All through elementary school I spent my time helping other children, which I loved. On into junior high and I still wasn't challenged. Then in 9th grade English, my teacher told my mom on Back to School night that she was recommending me for honors and let me do what I wanted for the rest of the year. I missed 100 days in 3 years of high school (I went to college early) and was still in the top 10% of my class. It's not just the south; it's not just the schools. For many of us, it's not just about education - it is about learning together as a family. It is the parents having control over their own children's education, as it should be. It's about being involved when one has a large family and can't be in several schools at once to be involved (or when the school doesn't want you there anyway). There are over 130,000 public schools in the United States. That means that at least 64,999 are below average. It would be helpful for future discussion if we could agree that not all public schools are quality schools, even though all the ones you've worked in have been, and move on from there. Thank you! Um... not all of the schools I have taught in have been wonderful. I use to teach in the Ravenswood School District located in East Palo Alto, the former murder capital of America: http://teachingmybabytoread.blog.com/2011/07/10/when-the-bell-rings/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 :iagree: Not only does memorizing poetry shape the mind and thoughts, but it imbeds sophisticated vocabulary and language patterns in the mind. I love Andrew Pudewa's essay about poetry memorization here. This was a really thought provoking essay. Thank you for sharing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailofsparks Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Hi-ho! For any of you who are familiar with the first ed of WTM, are the differences striking or would I be able to follow along all right? (I had heard that only their recommendations for curricula had really changed in the 2nd ed.) I'd love to join in, but don't have the new edition. Thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenbrdsly Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) Hi-ho! For any of you who are familiar with the first ed of WTM, are the differences striking or would I be able to follow along all right? (I had heard that only their recommendations for curricula had really changed in the 2nd ed.) I'd love to join in, but don't have the new edition. Thx. I think you will be okay without the third edition. My page numbers won't match up, but the general thoughts will. We'd love to have you join us! http://teachingmybabytoread.blog.com/2011/07/08/the-well-trained-mind-thoughts-from-chapter-1/ http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290232 (chapter 2) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290567 (chapter 3) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291026 (chapter 4) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2924694#post2924694 (chapter 5) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2929481#post2929481 (chapter 6) Edited July 14, 2011 by jenbrdsly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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