Mourning Singapore....

[siloam]

Singapore was my first love of math programs. I am a math person and I adore it. I capture my heart right off.

 

But my kids are extremely sequential and concrete learners. This hasn't been a problem with addition and subtraction, because they are basic skills that are used daily and which are reinforced. The longer my kids do Singapore the more problems they have. Not with simple multiplication and division. They can do that wonderfully in their minds. Even simple fractions and decimals didn't make them flinch. Remembering how to do long division, long multiplication, how to add, subtract, multiply and divide fractions and on into area and such they start to have recall problems. They just aren't getting enough practice to own it for their learning style.

 

For her 7th grade year (last year) I pulled my oldest from Singapore and put her into Lial's Basic College math. She does all the problem sets, review and tests. The incremental to mastery learning with cumulative review has turned her around. She's remembering it.

 

I finally gave in and dropped Singapore for the rest. It is a great program. I still adore it. But that is from the perspective of someone who has already mastered the concepts and can just enjoy the depth. My kids need step by step learning with lots of practice and review. Singapore just wasn't meeting their needs. If I had more energy I probably could take the extra practice text and the Intensive practice texts and line everything up so they do get more practice and mastery. It would help. But in the end the program is a certain amount of spiral and that still also leaves out cumulative review. I am sure there is still some way to make it work. I just don't have the energy at this stage to do it.

 

All this to say I moved my 2nd dd over to Lial's as well, but at a slower pace than my older girl. This move was confirmed when I got her test scores back and she had dropped significantly in math...even through she often gets 100 percent on her worksheets from day to day. She can do it at the moment, but it isn't transferring into long term recall. She understands why math works, but she can't remember the formulas and procedures (steps to use). What an odd problem, usually it is the opposite. They child can do the formula and can't tell you why it works.

 

For my younger two they will continue with Right Start (also doesn't have enough practice, even with daily games, but at least they still get the why and learn their math facts here). Then they are doing Math Mammoth because it allows me of focus on a single topic at a time, working to mastery.

 

Just thought I would share the journey. Food for thought for those who are trying to make decisions for fall. Sometimes you have to let go of perfectly good (or even beloved) stuff for that which is a better fit for the child's needs.

 

Heather

[karensk]

She can do it at the moment, but it isn't transferring into long term recall. She understands why math works, but she can't remember the formulas and procedures (steps to use).

 

This is the same thing ds had trouble with. And we had used the PM series where I aligned a lot of additional assignments with IP, CWP, and sometimes Extra Practice as well. I think what he needed, by around 5th grade, was to do 20-30 problems of the same format (massive repetition) in order to remember the steps/procedures beyond one or two weeks. And while SM provided a wide variety of interesting problems within a topic to solve, usually there were only 4 to 8 of each kind. So he was great at solving complex problems, and not so great at remembering the steps for the basic things like dividing fractions, etc.

 

So after he completed PM-5B, I had him do Chalkdust Basic Math 6, which is a traditional math textbook with something like 80 to 100 problems per topic, and usually of the same format. Although the content of the Basic Math text was mostly all review, ds said it really helped him memorize the steps better by having to solve 20-30 of the same kind of problem each day. So it served as a review/reinforcement text. Then he did PM-6, and then the first half of NEM-1 (because I already owned it and couldn't buy any new stuff at the time), then the new topics of Chalkdust Pre-algebra text which is also a traditional U.S. math textbook.

 

Now he's no longer at home but attended private school last year for the first time, where he took the algebra class. As I expected, he was great at learning concepts, but it took several weeks for him to get used to showing all of his work. :) But he worked hard and made A's throughout the year.

 

I think compared to his peers at school, he seems to be strong in solving complex problems. And I know that comes from SM, especially the IP series. So one option is to get a few IP books and assign some problems from them every now and then, with whatever math curriculum you're using. I think SWB might have suggested doing this when I heard her at a local homeschool conference.

 

HTH!

Edited July 4, 2011 by karensk

[SorrelZG]

Thank-you for sharing. There are a few things I gained from this (not even necessarily curriculum specific) that are sobering and useful to keep in mind.

[Ali in OR]

I love how Singapore teaches concepts--it would be hard for me to drop. I understand what you're saying about the lack of review though. We follow up with a second program to get that constant review and practice--Horizons. I don't think I would like using only Horizons--it just doesn't build the conceptual understanding the way that Singapore does. But I do think it has been very helpful for cementing concepts for my girls. Just another possibility for others who think they need to get more practice and review into their kids' routine.

[Crimson Wife]

Math Mammoth sounds like it's a better "fit" for your children. Singapore is a great program, but it isn't the be-all-and-end-all for every child.

[truebluexf]

I think this is why it tanked for my DS. Nothing was solidified for him, and it eventually drove him nuts, lol. We're using MUS now, and MM for DD1 (who seems very drawn to workbooks and independence!)

[littlemommy]

Lial's College Basic Math? Does it come with answers to the problems in the back? Thanks.

[JudyJudyJudy]

This is the same thing ds had trouble with. And we had used the PM series where I aligned a lot of additional assignments with IP, CWP, and sometimes Extra Practice as well. I think what he needed, by around 5th grade, was to do 20-30 problems of the same format (massive repetition) in order to remember the steps/procedures beyond one or two weeks.

The large majority of children need this type of repetition. We love Singapore here, and the method worked wonderfully for my son, but I still felt the need to pull out old traditional math textbooks for repetition (I used to teach math in public schools). Ds just finished 6B, and I've decided to go with Dolciani Prealgebra (1973) for next year instead of Singapore. (Part of me wants to order Singapore Discovering Mathematics to do on the side, though.)

[Annie Laurie]

I so understand this Heather. I feel this way about RightStart, I just love how math is taught and mental math is emphasized, and we've stuck it out so far, but I can't decide about buying level E. I'm thinking about Math Mammoth also, for the same reason.

[Kathie in VA]

Lial's College Basic Math? Does it come with answers to the problems in the back? Thanks.

 

Yes the answers to all the section's odd problems and both odd/even for the tests.

 

hths

[imhim]

We are only in 2B PM - there are so many exercises in the Workbook, Mental MAth, IP, CWP - I have to cross out so my dd will not spend time on those. She tells me that there is too much of the same type of exercises. I agree, she knows what she is doing, rarely making mistakes, and she understands.

 

But I do have her use the Abeka Worktext as a supplement- just for fun.

 

Now I wonder if I am missing something, as someone on this thread said that most kids need more practice, while we don't even do all the exercises in the books because it is simply too much repetition?

[Sahamamama]

As I just purchased all of Singapore PM 1A through 2B (to share among three students), this thread makes me nervous. :001_huh:

[LittleIzumi]

Now I wonder if I am missing something, as someone on this thread said that most kids need more practice, while we don't even do all the exercises in the books because it is simply too much repetition?

 

It depends on the kid. :) Some do and some don't.

[JudyJudyJudy]

We are only in 2B PM - there are so many exercises in the Workbook, Mental MAth, IP, CWP - I have to cross out so my dd will not spend time on those. She tells me that there is too much of the same type of exercises. I agree, she knows what she is doing, rarely making mistakes, and she understands.

 

But I do have her use the Abeka Worktext as a supplement- just for fun.

 

Now I wonder if I am missing something, as someone on this thread said that most kids need more practice, while we don't even do all the exercises in the books because it is simply too much repetition?

She's probably fine at that stage, and she may be later as well. However, when she gets into multiplying large numbers and doing long division, fractions, decimals, and percents, you might feel that she needs more repetition. Some kids will catch on to a concept quickly, can easily do some problems, and then seem to be ready to move on. Unfortunately, though, sometimes no matter how easy it was for the kids to learn to do the problems, without lots of practice, the concept doesn't stick long-term.

 

As I just purchased all of Singapore PM 1A through 2B (to share among three students), this thread makes me nervous. :001_huh:

Don't be nervous! Singapore is awesome. It is terrific for teaching your child how to think mathematically, and starting that in the early grades is great. As I said above, however, you may decide that you need to add more repetition when harder concepts come up. As I said, we love Singapore math, and I'm still debating on whether or not to do some Singapore way along with another program next year.

 

I should add that I didn't buy the Extra Practice books. They may be exactly the extra that some kids need. I just pulled problems from old textbooks or made up my own.

[chepyl]

We are starting 1st Grade with Singapore PM 2A and 2B. I have the text, workbook and intensive practice. It looked like that would be plenty of repetition....is there another book that I should get for repetition? I love math and am pretty good at it, DS5 has picked it up amazingly well! I am comfortable making up problems to do on the board, I had intended to do that when we needed more practice or find some online drill sheets.

 

What do you all think? I really love the way the program is set up and was excited for my son to work through it, he loves math and thinks VERY mathematically!!

 

Thanks!

[JudyJudyJudy]

Cheryl, if you're comfortable making up your own problems as needed, that's what I'd do, especially in the earlier grades.

[truebluexf]

We are only in 2B PM - there are so many exercises in the Workbook, Mental MAth, IP, CWP - I have to cross out so my dd will not spend time on those. She tells me that there is too much of the same type of exercises. I agree, she knows what she is doing, rarely making mistakes, and she understands.

 

But I do have her use the Abeka Worktext as a supplement- just for fun.

 

Now I wonder if I am missing something, as someone on this thread said that most kids need more practice, while we don't even do all the exercises in the books because it is simply too much repetition?

 

For us, not only could my son never get through that many proiblems from all those different books, but then he would never finish a level in a year if we tried! I don't think he needs to do 5+ pages in math a day.

[NittanyJen]

We are only in 2B PM - there are so many exercises in the Workbook, Mental MAth, IP, CWP - I have to cross out so my dd will not spend time on those. She tells me that there is too much of the same type of exercises. I agree, she knows what she is doing, rarely making mistakes, and she understands.

 

But I do have her use the Abeka Worktext as a supplement- just for fun.

 

Now I wonder if I am missing something, as someone on this thread said that most kids need more practice, while we don't even do all the exercises in the books because it is simply too much repetition?

 

Not all kids need excessive repetition. And there is review when you open the next book! For some kids excessive repetition is not mastery, it is just a love of math killer. Do what your child needs, not what everyone on the boards is doing!

 

(from someone who HATED math until my school finally turned me loose to do it my way-- and I completed the entire yearlong geometry course in 4 weeks. They were horrified, but I scored 100% on their final exam. I then completed algebra II in 6 weeks and did the same. They were too scared to let me tackle trig at that point, so I got math credit for extra music lessons that year, took tri & analysis, and went on to 2 years of calc in HS long before it was fashionable to do so... Guess what? All that time and repetition they said were necessary to retain the information were not. I had no trouble recalling the geometry or algebra, because I had done them in a manner appropriate for ME.)

 

Jen

http://hillandalefarmschool.blogspot.com/

[Kate in Arabia]

My ds 13 is just completing the Singapore Primary Math series, starting with the nursery level books at 4yrs. He has done all the books plus most of the supplements. I don't find the supplements hard to work in at all, he simply completes a chapter in the main book and workbook, then does the same sections in the supplemental books. He was also fine with the periodic reviews that are given throughout the books.

 

The only times I used outside supplements was for simple drill of addition/subtraction and multiplication/division facts, which he did concurrently while we moved forward in the Singapore books.

 

I will say that we have taken math at a slow and steady pace. I know many finish the Singapore series in grade six or even earlier; ds is finishing it over this summer and he'll be going into 8th in the fall. I long ago gave up fretting over completing, for example, level 2 in grade 2; and while not totally rigid, I have been pretty close on having the kids finish the bulk of the Singapore supplements, even if I feel they "get" the concept. I suppose I feel they still need practice time, even if they understand it from the get go.. kind of like daily exercise. I don't know whether this has made a difference or not.

[profmom]

I, too, mourned Singapore! It was my first math-love too, but CLE was a much better fit for ds. I wish I had gone ahead and switched a year sooner, when it was clear that SM wasn't the best fit.

 

(My oldest dd went through SM 6B, but I actually think my ds will be better prepared for Algebra. Maybe SM wasn't the best fit for her either?)

[Crimson Wife]

We are only in 2B PM - there are so many exercises in the Workbook, Mental MAth, IP, CWP - I have to cross out so my dd will not spend time on those. She tells me that there is too much of the same type of exercises. I agree, she knows what she is doing, rarely making mistakes, and she understands.

 

But I do have her use the Abeka Worktext as a supplement- just for fun.

 

Now I wonder if I am missing something, as someone on this thread said that most kids need more practice, while we don't even do all the exercises in the books because it is simply too much repetition?

 

You may find as you get further into Singapore that your student may start needing more review than she does now.

 

I started out having my DD skip the end-of-chapter reviews because they were overkill at the time they are scheduled but by 4A decided to add them back in on Fridays one semester behind as refreshers. There are certain things that for whatever reason she cannot keep straight- Imperial measurement conversions, mean vs. median vs. mode, some of the geometry, etc.

[siloam]

Lial's College Basic Math? Does it come with answers to the problems in the back? Thanks.

7th edition, it does have the odd answers. I bought the student answer key, which has the odd problems worked out. For the even I have gone in and made an answer key, which allows me to get the nuances of what they are teaching (every text approaches thing slightly different) and thus teach it better.

 

There is all the answers in the TM of the current edition. You just have to get set up with the publisher as a hser in order to buy the TM and the newer edition is more expensive.

 

I think some people have found the 7th edition TM used. I didn't really even try.

 

Heather

[siloam]

I so understand this Heather. I feel this way about RightStart, I just love how math is taught and mental math is emphasized, and we've stuck it out so far, but I can't decide about buying level E. I'm thinking about Math Mammoth also, for the same reason.

We are still doing RS through E, but Geometry didn't work out here.

 

Parts of Geometry were too easy, while others were too complicated (not hard just....more work than it needed to be....at least for us), and even through I bought the printable disk we continued to have differences in measurements. When you are measuring to a tenth of an inch it is just really hard to get the same answer. Does the beginning mark go on the start of the line or right before it? It is easy to end up a tenth off. After re-doing many answers I finally started having her turn in her measurements for me to correct with the RS measurements so I could actually use their answer key. It just got old and we dropped it.

 

But I really liked the way E showed the relationship between percents, decimals and fractions as well as the multivide.

 

Heather

[siloam]

As I just purchased all of Singapore PM 1A through 2B (to share among three students), this thread makes me nervous. :001_huh:

 

It really depends on your kiddo's learning style. Most kids start out concrete (which is why everything goes into a 2yo's mouth)and sequential learners, but many kids develop the ability to think more abstractly and randomly. That just means that they can take random pieces of information, and place them in the right order to figure out the whole and that they can deal with things that are not physical in nature, but theoretical. Every person has some of each ability, mine tend to be more concrete and sequential, especially more sequential than average.

 

For example I find concrete thinkers like fantasy in general because it is pretend, and like stories about reality, but don't care for stories like Dr. Doolittle because they combine the two. Where abstract thinkers love the blur between reality and pretend. Concrete thinkers will also struggle with situations where something is not explicitly stated, but implied through body language or such. Abstract thinkers will pick up on the undertow quickly.

 

Also sequential learners, if told a story out of order, will have a hard time with comprehension, where an abstract leaner will be able to put the story in order in their mind, and still get the comprehension correct.

 

These generalities are not always true, but they can be guides to help you in figuring out the needs of your child.

 

Heather

[EKS]

I'm right there with you. A few months ago I decided to drop Singapore (in the middle of 6A) and switch to Lial's BCM. It was an anxiety producing decision, but the right one for my son.

[ThriceBlessed]

Concrete thinkers will also struggle with situations where something is not explicitly stated, but implied through body language or such.

 

Heather

 

Oh my goodness....this is my oldest dd :iagree:

[Lori D.]

You don't have to mourn -- just morph your expectations. :)

 

You can still enjoy Singapore Primary as an occasional supplement to your main math spine for your students up through Pre-Algebra. It is VERY helpful for ALL types of learners to see math from more than one perspective -- really encourages making connections and develops math-thinking and problem-solving skills by seeing there is more than one way to approach the problem.

 

For example:

While Singapore worked great for our older math-minded DS as a math spine, it did NOT for younger math-struggler DS. What finally connected for him was MUS. But younger DS GREATLY benefitted from using Singapore as supplement all the way up through doing MUS Pre-Algebra; he is truly able to figure out how to problem solve as a result of us supplementing with Singapore.

 

Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Lori D.

[smalltown mom]

Heather, thanks once again for sharing your wisdom! I'm dealing with the same type of situation with my 7th grader (soon to start PM 6B). I've been printing off some multiplication and long division review off EdHelper. I also noticed a drop in test scores last year, and I think he really needs the mastery/sequential approach, rather than spiral of SM. I've never heard of the curriculum you mentioned--I'll have to look into it--I was thinking of switching to Life of Fred for him. We'll see :) I'm just glad I'm not the only one who's having issues like these!