Where is my red pen?? Somebody stop me!

[silliness7]

I just went through this with my green pen, and while I found several places needing commas and lots of awkward phrasing, I didn't find any grammatical mistakes. What am I missing?

 

:iagree: O.K. I'm with you. But I didn't want to be the first to say it. I'm insecure. :glare: I hope you didn't get blasted.

Continuing to read....:auto:

 

Oh, and I also admire his entrepreneurial spirit. Hope I spelled that right. :D

[silliness7]

Audrey - I'm not picking on you specifically, many people have said something similar.

 

Isn't this the problem though? The public schools are failing our children. This is seen as above average writing for a high school aged student? That just seems so crazy to me.

 

I do not expect my mechanic to quote Shakespeare as a pp said but isn't it insulting them to imply that they shouldn't or couldn't?

 

I currently work at a community college. In the spring we will have over 120 remedial classes in Math & English. In the lowest reading classes the texts used are at a 6th grade reading level. With the exception of those kids with LD's how are these kids passing and eventually graduating HS? It boggles my mind. There is a serious problem with the education kids are getting these days. Aren't we feeding into it by not expecting better?

 

But the kid could have 3 more years to perfect his writing. Just because a highschool freshman might need some pointers doesn't mean that with 3 more years of English he'll still be at this same point. Maybe you have a better idea of how old he is.

[mmasmommy]

I expect a high school diploma to mean that both future mechanics and future CEOs should know how to write a paragraph with little to no errors. Is that too much to expect from years and years of instruction?

 

 

 

:iagree: I couldn't agree with this more.

 

I do not expect a mechanic to know everything a college grad would know unless he is a college grad but. However, I still find it slightly insulting that we keep implying the people who are mechanics, lawn care people, janitors, factory workers, etc. wouldn't have basic educational knowledge.

 

My Dad was the custodian for an elementary school for 30+ years. As a kid I was almost ashamed that that's what he did. However as an adult I know that my Dad is a smart guy. He didn't go to college but he is intellegent and did what he needed to do to support his family all of those years.

 

I was quite naive about the state of the public schools until I started working here at the community college. It has been a real eye opener and has reinforced to me that we did the right thing pulling the kids out of school.

[Wabi Sabi]

I thought I had while reading this entire thread: does the OP even know this student? Does she know where he attends school?

 

I'm just puzzled as to why this is being discussed as evidence that the public schools are failing our children yet none of us actually know where this kid attends school. I think we can all agree that many public schools aren't doing an adequate job, but why jump to the conclusion that this particular kid must be public schooled simply because of his writing?

[lvbnhome]

I would really encourage you not to correct this note, and return it to this person. That would be rude.

 

My own son (16) wrote a note to his aunt, only to have it returned with red pen markings all over it. Being that he has dyslexia, and has overcome so much with reading/writing already...well..needless to say, it was quite discouraging. He already knows it's a problem, why not encourage someone instead of being critical...?? With love :):001_wub:

 

Came home last night to find this taped to my front door.

 

 

I Can Mow Your Lawn!

I see that your lawn needs to be cut and I would

be happy to mow it. I only charge $20-$25 for

both front and back. I can do your lawn this

summer anytime during the week (Monday Thru

Friday). I do have certain times during the week

because of football though. I have football from

7:30-9:00. Anytime after this during the day is

fine though. Another thing is that I can use

either my dad's lawnmower or yours whichever

you prefer. Lastly, I do live in this community and

if you have and questions or want to schedule

a time for me to cut your lawn just call me @ xxx-

xxx-xxxx.

 

 

 

Everything has been copied exactly as it is written down to the spacing.

I desperately want to mark this with a red pen and put it back on his front door. This child is in HIGH SCHOOL. :glare:

[mmasmommy]

I thought I had while reading this entire thread: does the OP even know this student? Does she know where he attends school?

 

I'm just puzzled as to why this is being discussed as evidence that the public schools are failing our children yet none of us actually know where this kid attends school. I think we can all agree that many public schools aren't doing an adequate job, but why jump to the conclusion that this particular kid must be public schooled simply because of his writing?

 

Yes I do know that this kid goes to our local public High School and went to our local public middle school before that. He is our neighbor and lives accross the street from my parents. His brother just graduated from the same school this past weekend and his younger brother rode the bus with my kids until I pulled them out of school last year.

[mmasmommy]

I would really encourage you not to correct this note, and return it to this person. That would be rude.

 

My own son (16) wrote a note to his aunt, only to have it returned with red pen markings all over it. Being that he has dyslexia, and has overcome so much with reading/writing already...well..needless to say, it was quite discouraging. He already knows it's a problem, why not encourage someone instead of being critical...?? With love :):001_wub:

 

I replied later that I would never actually do this. My sarcasm and frustration did not come through in my original post, I wish I had worded it differently.

[MelanieM]

Well, I was expecting way worse than that from your title and opening sentence! Sure, it isn't the best written thing in the world, but it's clear enough to understand. I've seen much, much worse in professional documents and from people who are setting themselves up as experts in the written word, in some form or another.

 

Honestly, the original post here has several errors, and I've seen much worse on these boards. (And I've probably done much worse myself!) When do we start handing out red pens to each other and discussing the horrible state of affairs of homeschoolers everywhere? ;)

[silliness7]

I saw one typo.

One use of the word thru which I think in the wide wide world of advertising gets a pass.

One sentence that was unfinished.

There was an unneccessary "though" on a completely fine sentence.

One sentence would have been better without "and another thing".

 

So the unfinished sentence was not so good. But the whole thing wasn't horrible. I expected misuse of apostrophes and misspellings galore. There, their, they're confusion drives me batty, even though I do it all the time and have to proofread to catch myself. I am horrible with commas too. Horrible!!

 

I really don't think one can point to the flyer as proof of the decline of education in America. It's happening. I don't think this flyer is evidence of it. I'm still thinking he has a couple of years before he graduates. So he is still in the *learning* phase. :001_smile:

 

The spacing issue is more of a graphical design issue than a grammar issue.

 

I think it's fun to get outraged at horrible grammar in professional pieces. I am an old f@rt. ;) But this one was disappointingly O.K.

[mmasmommy]

But the kid could have 3 more years to perfect his writing. Just because a highschool freshman might need some pointers doesn't mean that with 3 more years of English he'll still be at this same point. Maybe you have a better idea of how old he is.

 

You're 100% right. He is a freshman, well I guess sophmore now. He does have time to improve upon his writing. I hope that our school is able to help him with that.

[JessieC]

The future existance of our country depends upon the knowledge, initiative, and intellegence of the children of today. Personally, I believe we should all be holding high school students, teachers, parents, and administrators to a much higher level of expectation than we currently are. I fear for the futures of these children if we just "let it slide" and allow them to float along at the rate of the lowest common denominator.:sad:

 

existence

 

Didn't want to let it slide ;)

[ErinMarie123]

Even if the school system wasn't failing our children, there are still some kids who just don't get it. Not every student gets straight A's...so the kids who get B's on down, well - I'm assuming they wouldn't know how to use proper grammar 100% of the time. No, it's not "right" - but it's the way it is.

 

Personally when I was in school, I did awful in literature & the arts (can you tell from my grammar error-ridden posts?) and excelled in math & science. Would someone hire me to write their advertising, or an article for a magazine, or a book? No way! They'd be insane! Would someone hire me to design experiments, collect and analyze data, build models to forecast trends and predict outcomes? They'd be silly not to!

 

Not everyone has the same strengths. It would be great if everyone had perfect grammar...but it's never going to happen. The problem lies in the fact that if this kid is getting straight A's making errors. Maybe he's a C-student. You know?

 

Just trying to put it in perspective!

[mmasmommy]

This had to be the one thread I started that people took notice of.

 

I think I'd like to return to obscurity now.

[ErinMarie123]

This had to be the one thread I started that people took notice of.

 

I think I'd like to return to obscurity now.

 

:D:lol::D

[JudyJudyJudy]

This had to be the one thread I started that people took notice of.

 

I think I'd like to return to obscurity now.

LOL. Don't sweat it. I think it turned into a good discussion. :)

[Aubrey]

This had to be the one thread I started that people took notice of.

 

I think I'd like to return to obscurity now.

 

:grouphug: If you think about it, it reveals an odd truth: although we may not agree w/ you on *this* flyer, we all LOVE red pens. ;)

[DarlaS]

This had to be the one thread I started that people took notice of.

 

I think I'd like to return to obscurity now.

 

 

It's over this way with me --------------------> :seeya:

 

I don't think I've ever had a thread last this many pages. You'd be pretty safe hanging with me. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

:grouphug: If you think about it, it reveals an odd truth: although we may not agree w/ you on *this* flyer, we all LOVE red pens. ;)

 

So true!

 

One of my real life corrections:

 

 

[DarlaS]

So true!

 

One of my real life corrections:

[ATTACH]5642[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]5641[/ATTACH]

 

This makes me want to carry a red pen in my purse. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

This makes me want to carry a red pen in my purse. :D

 

There have been occasions on which dh has threatened to confiscate mine. :tongue_smilie:

[meggie]

So true!

 

One of my real life corrections:

[ATTACH]5642[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]5641[/ATTACH]

So sad a kitten had to die:crying:

[I.Dup.]

I know this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but I'm going to be frank. I am a former (and still certified) public school teacher in both middle grades and high school; and the problem as I've seen it in public schools in many cases is not that they're teaching too little, but rather, that they're trying to teach too much. The fact is that not everyone needs to know how to do calculus, how to do in depth literary analysis, or how to write papers worthy of being published, yet we expect that instead of making sure that everyone gets the basics down.

 

I agree with this. This is something I am constantly keeping in mind during our school plans.

 

I did not see that many errors in the OP's example...but then again I did go to public/private school AND we have not reached the intense grammar years yet, so I am using that as my excuse :D

[MtnTeaching]

existence

 

Didn't want to let it slide ;)

 

 

Don't you just hate that!!! :lol::lol::lol:

[JudyJudyJudy]

So true!

 

One of my real life corrections:

[ATTACH]5642[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]5641[/ATTACH]

 

I'll confess that I anonymously red-inked a paper that one of my college English professors posted outside her door. I did it late one night, and it was corrected and posted again by the next morning!

[cin]

 

Eta: I do expect signs at Walmart and places like that to be correct. I *have* corrected paper signs with a red sharpie.

 

I knew it! And do you carry said sharpie in you purse JUST so you can do this! I have done this a couple of times also and DH gets so mad.

 

 

Back to the original topic; I worked with a lawn care company for several months (the place was dirty by default, and my allergies KILLED me!) BUT, I will tell you, most of the guys that were working there mowing lawns and general landscaping couldn't SPEAK English, let alone write it properly. And they temporary work visas (?) I guess, for summertime work. But they were the HARDEST working guys. And when I was around, they were gentlemen. They treated me better than the guys who live here!

 

I don't know the boy who wrote the note, but when I was HS, alot of the kids with relatively minor learning disabilities ended up going to Vocational School. And they were just has hard working as the Valedictorian, who went to a fine college.

 

All that to say if I were wanting someone to mow my lawn, I would definitely give the kid a chance. He may be a HARD working kid, and I may well get my $25 worth.

[Mama2Many4]

:iagree: I couldn't agree with this more.

 

I do not expect a mechanic to know everything a college grad would know unless he is a college grad but. However, I still find it slightly insulting that we keep implying the people who are mechanics, lawn care people, janitors, factory workers, etc. wouldn't have basic educational knowledge.

 

My Dad was the custodian for an elementary school for 30+ years. As a kid I was almost ashamed that that's what he did. However as an adult I know that my Dad is a smart guy. He didn't go to college but he is intellegent and did what he needed to do to support his family all of those years.

 

I was quite naive about the state of the public schools until I started working here at the community college. It has been a real eye opener and has reinforced to me that we did the right thing pulling the kids out of school.

 

This right here could be picked apart as well. Did you honestly mean to put a period after "but"? Should the word even be in there?

 

See what this is getting at?

 

Also you spelled intelligent wrong. ;)

 

*Tone is friendly and joking*

[petepie2]

Actually, my first thought was not the need for a red pen. His grammar isn't all that bad. What struck me was that his advertisement is very wordy and contains unnecessary information. While I'm uncertain of the abilities of his PS classmates, I'm sure THIS kid will work out the kinks in his grammar and will come out of high school being able to write a sentence correctly. He just needs to learn how to write with skill and style.

[kalanamak]

The kid did better than many of my co-workers would have. "Though"? They wouldn't have used the word because they sort of know they can't spell it.

[mmasmommy]

This right here could be picked apart as well. Did you honestly mean to put a period after "but"? Should the word even be in there?

 

See what this is getting at?

 

Also you spelled intelligent wrong. ;)

 

*Tone is friendly and joking*

 

The but shouldn't have been there at all and my spelling has always been terrible. In no way did I mean to imply that I am perfect. We all make mistakes.

 

Actually, my first thought was not the need for a red pen. His grammar isn't all that bad. What struck me was that his advertisement is very wordy and contains unnecessary information. While I'm uncertain of the abilities of his PS classmates, I'm sure THIS kid will work out the kinks in his grammar and will come out of high school being able to write a sentence correctly. He just needs to learn how to write with skill and style.

 

I agree, it is wordy and contains too much information. I don't think I ever said his grammar was bad.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The but shouldn't have been there at all and my spelling has always been terrible. In no way did I mean to imply that I am perfect. We all make mistakes.

 

 

 

But you imply that he has to be perfect and that he can't make mistakes without being labeled a product of a defunct education.

[MtnTeaching]

But you imply that he has to be perfect and that he can't make mistakes without being labeled a product of a defunct education.

 

Wow. I never heard that in any of her comments.:confused:

[mmasmommy]

But you imply that he has to be perfect and that he can't make mistakes without being labeled a product of a defunct education.

 

Oh my. :confused: I don't think I ever implied that I expected anyone to be perfect. I am beyond upset at the thought of my posts being taken that way.

[annandatje]

Came home last night to find this taped to my front door.

 

 

I Can Mow Your Lawn!

I see that your lawn needs to be cut and I would

be happy to mow it. I only charge $20-$25 for

both front and back. I can do your lawn this

summer anytime during the week (Monday Thru

Friday). I do have certain times during the week

because of football though. I have football from

7:30-9:00. Anytime after this during the day is

fine though. Another thing is that I can use

either my dad's lawnmower or yours whichever

you prefer. Lastly, I do live in this community and

if you have and questions or want to schedule

a time for me to cut your lawn just call me @ xxx-

xxx-xxxx.

 

 

 

Everything has been copied exactly as it is written down to the spacing.

I desperately want to mark this with a red pen and put it back on his front door. This child is in HIGH SCHOOL. :glare:

 

Posters here who teach high school have made more egregious grammatical and usage errors than anything in your example.

 

PS - his price is a steal.

[CAMom]

Oh my. :confused: I don't think I ever implied that I expected anyone to be perfect. I am beyond upset at the thought of my posts being taken that way.

 

You didn't and you're getting a bad rap.

 

I'm kind of surprised that a classical education board is defending the flyer as high school level writing.:confused:

 

Sure, it's not the worst thing I've ever read but I would think even a freshman would write better than that. FTR, I would not hold the kid's writing ability against him when it came to hiring him to mow my lawn.:)

[Lovedtodeath]

The reason she suspected him? She said his paper was "too good to not have been plagiarized." She said that it was a very unusual paper for one of her students. I read the paper and thought it was decent but nothing special. I probably would have given him a "B" on it. He wrote the whole thing in a couple of hours. It definitely was not his best work.

I went through the same thing when I was in grade school. :glare: I was simply very well read and could easily pick skills up from that reading.

I know this won't be a popular opinion on this board, but I'm going to be frank. I am a former (and still certified) public school teacher in both middle grades and high school; and the problem as I've seen it in public schools in many cases is not that they're teaching too little, but rather, that they're trying to teach too much. The fact is that not everyone needs to know how to do calculus, how to do in depth literary analysis, or how to write papers worthy of being published, yet we expect that instead of making sure that everyone gets the basics down.

:iagree:Bravo!

[leeannpal]

That was my thought. I don't know if my grammar in my posts is deplorable, and I shouldn't have to care. They are posts on a message board.

 

The flyer is for lawn mowing, not tutoring.

 

Sorry, but I think that using basic grammar and punctuation is a note is a life skill that is very important. Whether you want to believe it or not, your writing does reflect on you as a person. People will make snap judgments about you based on poor writing skills.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sorry, but I think that using basic grammar and punctuation is a note is a life skill that is very important. Whether you want to believe it or not, your writing does reflect on you as a person. People will make snap judgments about you based on poor writing skills.

 

Sure it does. But most people have the grace to forgive small typos and mistakes. That's why the mistake in your post will not make me think that you are a poor learner or teacher. The issue that many of us had with the OP was not that we don't want standards but that we felt like she was being too nit-picky in this particular situation. The mistakes on the flyer were minor and were not being done by a professional. If I knew the neighbor well, I would encourage him for being so proactive in trying to drum up business. Then I would (again assuming that I knew him well and would not cause offense) say "If you want to make this flyer even better, then the next time you plan to advertise your business I would make these changes."

Edited June 29, 2011 by Jean in Newcastle

[leeannpal]

I didn't think it was THAT bad. For a high school boy, I would say that's about average. If I were grading it, I would have given him a B-.

 

Well, I've been a high school English teacher and currently teach middle school English and social studies. I would have graded it as a solid C. Some of the mistakes that he made, such as not using a comma to separate two independent clauses, are elementary level mistakes. While many here would think I was being overly picky, grammar is, by its very nature, a subject in which there are clear right and wrong answers. I don't think most people would fault a math teacher for demanding that all problems be written correctly. If the student fails to do so, the answer to the math problem will be incorrect.

 

It is one of my pet peeves that we have become so lax about learning to write correctly and use basic grammar well. Writing concise and easily read notes, emails and papers do reflect on how well educated that a person seems.

[leeannpal]

Sure it does. But most people have the grace to forgive small typos and mistakes. That's why the mistake in your post will not make me think that you are a poor learner or teacher. The issue that many of us had with the OP was not that we don't want standards but that we felt like she was being too nit-picky in this particular situation. The mistakes on the flyer were minor and were not being done by a professional. If I knew the neighbor well, I would encourage him for being so proactive in trying to drum up business. Then I would (again assuming that I knew him well and would not cause offense) say "If you want to make this flyer even better, then the next time you plan to advertise your business I would make these changes."

 

But there is a difference in a typo, as in the word in the post that I first made, and the incorrect usage of punctuation. One is a mistake, and the other is done incorrectly because the student does not know how correctly punctuate a basic sentence.

[leeannpal]

You didn't and you're getting a bad rap.

 

I'm kind of surprised that a classical education board is defending the flyer as high school level writing.:confused:

 

Sure, it's not the worst thing I've ever read but I would think even a freshman would write better than that. FTR, I would not hold the kid's writing ability against him when it came to hiring him to mow my lawn.:)

 

:iagree: The kid's work ethic and his punctuation problems really have nothing to do with one another.

[leeannpal]

Posters here who teach high school have made more egregious grammatical and usage errors than anything in your example.

 

PS - his price is a steal.

 

His errors are mostly mechanical, as in punctuation, and not grammar/usage related.

[Mama2Many4]

Sorry, but I think that using basic grammar and punctuation is a note is a life skill that is very important. Whether you want to believe it or not, your writing does reflect on you as a person. People will make snap judgments about you based on poor writing skills.

 

Exactly! ;)

[leeannpal]

Exactly! ;)

 

One of the things you highlighted in red is a typo as I have already explained, and the other is one of the accepted ways of spelling the word "judgment." the other accepted way is "judgement."

[Mama2Many4]

Well, I've been a high school English teacher and currently teach middle school English and social studies. I would have graded it as a solid C. Some of the mistakes that he made, such as not using a comma to separate two independent clauses, are elementary level mistakes. While many here would think I was being overly picky, grammar is, by its very nature, a subject in which there are clear right and wrong answers. I don't think most people would fault a math teacher for demanding that all problems be written correctly. If the student fails to do so, the answer to the math problem will be incorrect.

 

It is one of my pet peeves that we have become so lax about learning to write correctly and use basic grammar well. Writing concise and easily read notes, emails and papers do reflect on how well educated that a person seems.

 

This is a fragment. Consider revising. ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is nothing wrong with either of the things you highlighted.

 

Um, yes, there is. It should read "in a note". I would hope that a professional would be able to see that.

[Mama2Many4]

There is nothing wrong with either of the things you highlighted.

 

I believe you'll find judgements is spelled correctly this way. You left out the e. Very important letter. Unless you're from another country where this spelling is common.

Edited June 29, 2011 by 3Blessings4Me

[Jean in Newcastle]

I believe you'll find judgements is spelled correctly this way.

 

Sorry. She wins this round.

[leeannpal]

I believe you'll find judgements is spelled correctly this way. You left out the e. Very important letter.

 

Check it out online. I've taught the spelling of this word for many years.

[Mama2Many4]

Okay, so judgment is the UK spelling. Makes sense that I would have never heard of it. Being I'm an American and all.

[leeannpal]

This is a fragment. Consider revising. ;)

 

The sentence in my post is NOT a fragment. However, I did make a typo by not using the word "does" instead of "do". The subject of the sentence is a gerund phrase starting with the word "writing." The verb should have been "does."