Trying to figure out Fairy Tales

[Ohio12]

I read these quotes recently and I am really conflicted.

 

Children already know that dragons exist.

Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.

-G.K. Chesterton

 

 

If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales.

If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.

-Albert Einstein.

 

What do you think classifies as a Fairy Tale? I have chosen to not let my daughters watch or read Cinderella or Snow White or any of those stories because I feel like the moral is "if you really luck out (and you are pretty) you will get rich and a man will rescue you." I am a Christian so I think God is our rescuer, and think WAY too many women look to men or looks or money to solve their problems. Even if I wasn't a Christian though, I think these stories would offend feminists!

 

As an English teacher I taught the Arthurian Legend and that was more a battle between good and evil that I could get on board with.

 

What are some fairy tales that you like? Please help me think through this.

[Jumping In Puddles]

Here is a great read: What's Wrong With Cinderella: NYT you may have to register to read but it is worth it!

 

I like fairy tales. I don't think we give kids enough credit for figuring out what's real and what's fantasy. I model the kind of behavior and live the kind of values that I want my kids to have. These are just stories and if there is something I disagree with, then it's a chance to teach!

[Julie Herbster]

I read these quotes recently and I am really conflicted.

 

Children already know that dragons exist.

Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.

-G.K. Chesterton

 

 

If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales.

If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.

-Albert Einstein.

 

What do you think classifies as a Fairy Tale? I have chosen to not let my daughters watch or read Cinderella or Snow White or any of those stories because I feel like the moral is "if you really luck out (and you are pretty) you will get rich and a man will rescue you." I am a Christian so I think God is our rescuer, and think WAY too many women look to men or looks or money to solve their problems. Even if I wasn't a Christian though, I think these stories would offend feminists!

You've been doing a lot of thinking! I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. If you look closely enough, I suppose Cinderella and Snow White carry the "good vs. evil" theme. (Bad witches lose; good girls--Cinderella works hard and is humble; Snow White is sweet--win in the end.) Although my dc have read many different versions of the "princess heroine" stories, I do limit their exposure to the "Disnified" movie versions for the same reasons you mentioned here. (And we actually discuss those things.)

 

As an English teacher I taught the Arthurian Legend and that was more a battle between good and evil that I could get on board with.

Three cheers for the Arthurian legend!

 

What are some fairy tales that you like? Please help me think through this.

Tolkien and Lewis's fanciful tales are in the same vein as Arthurian tradition, as epic struggles between good and evil--gotta love 'em! I also like Lloyd Alexander's Prydain trilogy and John Christopher's Tripod trilogy (ate those up myself as a junior higher). I hear the Redwall series is good, too, but I haven't read them yet.

[Chris in VA]

I've heard it said that many classic fairy tales were actually influenced by Christianity. Think of it--the rescue of the fair maiden by the Prince on a white horse, who battles and wins against evil.

 

I tell dd that she is a princess, a real one, because her Father is the King of Kings. I'm totally serious about this.

[dangermom]

I am a big fan of folk and fairy tales. So I hereby endorse those two quotations. :p But I like the real fairy tales, not the Disneyfied versions. If your kid reads a whole collection of stories--not just the few that have been prettified and turned into films--then there is a huge range of story themes, many of which have clever heroines who save themselves as well as girls who marry the prince.

 

I do think there's a lot to be learned from fairy tales. Children naturally have violent feelings (all sorts of feelings) and I believe that fairy tales can help them to learn to deal with their fears and violence, more on their own level--that in fact, stories can teach that the dragons can be killed.

 

These old stories have been around for so long--I can't help but think there's a lot of value to stories that have been passed down and polished through so many generations. Most of the stories have heroines who are beautiful because they are good--and the goodness is more important than the beauty, it's just that the beauty is the outward sign of the good within (though not always, sometimes the girl is wearing a bearskin or something).

 

At the same time, I haven't let my daughters watch a lot of Disney princess movies, and I am really bugged by the whole "princess" thing, even as I understand that little girls naturally love sparkly princessy stuff--I just limit it very severely and make sure it's my girls' imaginations that do the work, not Disney. (No branded dress-ups, no "Princess" t-shirts, no Disney toys...) I feel quite strongly that all that stuff is a betrayal of what is true about folk tales (and, Chris, the very good truth you mention that they are daughters of a King).

 

What is a fairy tale? -- Well, as a librarian, I'm strongly tempted to reply "Anything in the 398 section!" but that's not quite accurate, since we have modern fairy-tales by authors like E. Nesbit, Oscar Wilde, and so on. And fairy tale writers frequently write fantasy novels too, many of the best of which are long, elaborate fairy tales (like C. S. Lewis or George MacDonald).

 

I am a Christian, but I also find enormous value in folk tales, fairy tales, and myth (as did Tolkien, Lewis, and many others). It's really important to me that my girls' imaginations be peopled with Robin Hood, King Arthur, the princess' hedgepig, Puck of Pook's Hill, Aladdin, and many other characters from old stories--hopefully more than, say, Hannah Montana. :thumbdown: Of course I also want them to have a strong grounding in Scripture, but I don't see those two things as contradictory.

[Closeacademy]

If you actually read a lot of the old fairy tales in the origional versions there is very little prince on a white horse rescuing going on. A lot of times the princess has to go through a lot trials and use her brain to triumph over situations.

 

A good site for fairy tales: http://www.familymanagement.com/literacy/grimms/grimms-toc.html

 

Some of good fairy tales:

 

Cat and Mouse in Partnership

The Star Money

Simeli Mountain

The Fisherman and His Wife

The Golden Key

The Genie in the Bottle is a good one but not on the site listed above.

I also like the Seven Little Kids.:001_smile:

 

The 398.2 and 398.21 section of your children's library may have some nice versions of fairy tales done up in individual books. Folk tales are often fairy tales.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Actually I was just reading some of these to my dc. I was surprised how appropo the folk tales of "Little Red Riding Hood" and "The Seven Little Kids" were to today. Do you think that the original story tellers had human wolves/strangers in mind when they told these stories to children? After all, Little Red Riding Hood learns not to talk to strangers and the seven little kids learn not to open the door to strangers who go to great lengths to deceive them!

[TXMomof4]

I am a Christian, but I also find enormous value in folk tales, fairy tales, and myth (as did Tolkien, Lewis, and many others). It's really important to me that my girls' imaginations be peopled with Robin Hood, King Arthur, the princess' hedgepig, Puck of Pook's Hill, Aladdin, and many other characters from old stories--hopefully more than, say, Hannah Montana. :thumbdown: Of course I also want them to have a strong grounding in Scripture, but I don't see those two things as contradictory.

 

It always blows my mind to see the difference in my girls after reading King Arthur vs. the time they spend watching Hannah Montana. Their play and 'dreams' are so much bigger when they've read a really good fairy tale. Plus, it's easy for them to see that the magic in the fairy tales is pretend. They have a hard time understanding that Hannah Montana isn't real. She has concerts, she sells clothing, so the tv show must be reality. We've cut out most of those kids shows because I"m sick of arguing about whether there's a Tipton Hotel in Boston (a la Suite Life of Zack and Cody). It is a much bigger disservice to my kids to let them think that any of those characters are worth emulating.

[wagnfun]

I read these quotes recently and I am really conflicted.

 

Children already know that dragons exist.

Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.

-G.K. Chesterton

 

 

If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales.

If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.

-Albert Einstein.

 

What do you think classifies as a Fairy Tale? I have chosen to not let my daughters watch or read Cinderella or Snow White or any of those stories because I feel like the moral is "if you really luck out (and you are pretty) you will get rich and a man will rescue you."

 

What are some fairy tales that you like? Please help me think through this.

 

I don't really think "disney" when I think of fairy tales. That may be the english major in me but honestly I think of stories such as hansel and gretel, rumpelstiltskin, & Three Billy Goats Gruff when I think fairy tales. My understanding of fairy tales is that they are like folklores or aesop's fables. Beings that Albert Einstein was a bit before Walt Disney, I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking about the Princess Jasmine or Bell either.

 

However, sidenote...did you know, whether or not you choice to like the story- that there is many different versions of Cinderella in many cultures, not just at Disney? just interesting....

[*anj*]

I love the real Fairy Tales. We have a copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales, the unprettyfied version, and they totally rock. They are not all sweetened up like the Disney versions, and the stories are truly gripping.

In general, as much as I like the songs in the Disney movies, they don't do justice to the stories. Have you ever read the real Pinocchio? It is an incredibly good book, nothing like the DV.

 

Try some of the authentic ones and see what you think!

[Jumping In Puddles]

I tend not to think of Disney movies as fairy tales either except for a few of the older ones.

 

I hate that I like it, but I can't help it - I like Disney's Snow White. I liked it as a kid and I know it's wrong but I like it now. :001_huh:

[Remudamom]

 

I am a Christian, but I also find enormous value in folk tales, fairy tales, and myth (as did Tolkien, Lewis, and many others). It's really important to me that my girls' imaginations be peopled with Robin Hood, King Arthur, the princess' hedgepig, Puck of Pook's Hill, Aladdin, and many other characters from old stories--hopefully more than, say, Hannah Montana. :thumbdown: Of course I also want them to have a strong grounding in Scripture, but I don't see those two things as contradictory.

 

 

Ditto, thanks for making that easy.

[dangermom]

 

It always blows my mind to see the difference in my girls after reading King Arthur vs. the time they spend watching Hannah Montana. Their play and 'dreams' are so much bigger when they've read a really good fairy tale. Plus, it's easy for them to see that the magic in the fairy tales is pretend. They have a hard time understanding that Hannah Montana isn't real. ...

I think this is really true. My kids can spend a lot of time playing Robin Hood or something, and they make up more elaborate, involved stories with a lot of characters (when they have friends over, anyway). I think their friends enjoy it too. Playing Rock Star just doesn't have the same scope for imagination. :001_smile:

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

So many fairy tales are morality tales. I read Grimm's tales and Hans Christian Anderson's to my kids. Now I'll have to go back and look at them in light of this post.

[E_Edgerton]

When I think fairy tales I think Grimm's. That's pretty much it. There are certainly fantastical tales from all cultures. I don't really consider Einstein an authority on fairy tales....just have fun with it. As for women in these tales, there is a big difference between Grimm's and Disney. If you aren't satisfied with those, make up your own...applying what you believe to the fairy tale formula....intro to characters, problem, solve said problem with special ability, then conclude...happily?:).

[frogpond1]

not the modern ones where the morals are lost. We love the Dover fairy books - Blue fairy book, Brown Fairy Book etc. There is a whole series. Sometimes they get a little too gory, but they always give you much to discuss and think about. Disney has turned it all into looks and love. It is just like reading Pyle's Robin Hood. Maid Marian doesn't even get more than a sentence. The romance isn't mentioned. The other reason I love fairy tales, is the depth of vocabulary but the shortness of the tales. It is a great section of the library to go to when your child is too old for simple little kids books, but doesn't always want that level of writing in a giant chapter book. You get a much higher reading level, but often beautiful pictures too.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

If you actually read a lot of the old fairy tales in the origional versions there is very little prince on a white horse rescuing going on. A lot of times the princess has to go through a lot trials and use her brain to triumph over situations.

 

I would agree with this. In many of the princess stories, the prince is a cardboard figure who often doesn't even have a name. If you will, he is the prize that the heroine wins for being virtuous. Her virtue mgiht be honesty, gentleness, loyalty, kindness etc.

 

And of course there are also stories where a hero wins the hand of an unnamed princess through his virtuous actions.

 

And as much as I dislike how Disney distorts what are some lovely stories, even then, there heroines generally have something to recommend them beyond just a pretty face. There is a strong message of beauty is as beauty does.

[Chris in VA]

We actually read quite a few "Cinderella" folk tales this year--The Rough Faced Girl comes to mind--I know we read about 5 of them, rather by accident. They were recommended in the AG. Interestingly, I recall an activity recommended by my language arts methods teacher, in which various Cinderella stories are read and compared by the children. Guess I internalized that lesson and presented it to dd!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I read these quotes recently and I am really conflicted.

 

Children already know that dragons exist.

Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.

-G.K. Chesterton

 

 

If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales.

If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.

-Albert Einstein.

 

 

 

I don't think that either of these quotes are meant to be an advertisement for reading Cinderella or Snow White more often. I think they are a comment that too many children are not allowed to have their imaginations run wild. I view these quotes as having more to do with freedom of thought. If Einstein had been confined by strictly factual thinking would he have allowed his mind to roam and thereby discover so much more? Solutions, such as those Einstein sought, require not only the scientific training but creativity. The quotes may be an oversimplification of the old defense of a liberal arts education. Years ago when I was in college they used to say that (for example) Law schools wanted applicants with a liberal arts education not a pre-law degree because those with the liberal arts degree had learned to think, analyse and write. I think that the point here is about teaching children to dream and to imagine limitless possibilities.

[clwcain]

Would you consider reading Tolkien's On Faerie Stories? That might help you clear up what he was talking about. Same with anything Chesterton had to say on the matter.

 

Realize that both Tolkien & Chesterton are coming at the question of Faerie from a Catholic understanding and it might take some adjustment. There is no antagonism between the Truth and the faerie story or even the ancient pagan myths.

 

And, regarding Disney, he was very proud of prohibiting anyone who was actually familiar with the stories from participating in the creation of the animated features. He wanted to tell the stories as he envisioned them. He refused to allow reference to the actual source material. Those aren't faerie stories if that phrase is to have any objective content. Fantasies, yes, but not faerie stories.

 

HTH, and if anything I've said is unclear, feel free to ask me to elaborate.:D

[lighthouseacademy]

I have to agree with many of the previous posters that it is virtue and an inner beauty that is shown by a beautiful outside. If you read the fairy tales, not disney, you will read about how she was kind to all she met, or how she was obedient and thoughtful and generous etc.

 

Like another poster, I believe that I am a daughter of a King- THE King. So I see nothing wrong with princesses and princes rescuing them. Truthfully, I don't see anything wrong with even the Disney version of Snow White- Snow White is saved by a man with a kind heart initially. She then goes into the forest and finds a home in need of love. Without regard to herself, she goes to work to do something nice for someone else. The dwarfs and Snow White forge a friendship that endures. When bad things happen, her friends take care of her. Eventually, good triumphs. In a Christian perspective, the prince is our Savior. No matter if bad things happen to good people, in the end, the Lord will make it right. I don't believe it is about a helpless female waiting for someone to ride in and save her from her lot in life because she is beautiful.

 

I find it very interesting that most cultures have some version of Cinderella. If I am not mistaken, it is the most widely told fairy tale not because of Disney but because every culture made their own Cinderella story.

 

Another reason I teach fairy tales is because it is part of our culture and heritage. Much of good literature does allude to fairy tales. I have used fairy tales to click my children back into proper behavior... for example the Little Red Hen. When my children are whining that they won't help with... I remind them that as a family we need to do all the work together so we can enjoy the bread together. My kids quickly step up because they want the bread at the end (meal, story time, play time, etc).

 

 

Marisa

[Rosie_0801]

What are some fairy tales that you like? Please help me think through this.

 

I don't have a problem with this really. I think those stories reflect traditional dating techniques. Men like to be knights in shining armour, and a sensible woman likes knights in shining armour. Of course there is no point being a knight, if there isn't a lady around to appreciate it.

I remember reading one modern version of Sleeping Beauty. Apparently, during all that time, she'd been out having coffee with her girl friends, doing her degree, playing tennis and running her own small business. She just nipped back to bed when she heard Prince Charming was on his way. I think they lived happily ever after except for occasional arguments over the housework, or something.

My favourite fairy tale is The 'Three Weavers.' It's quite old fashioned, but tells a lovely story about fathers, daughters, and how to be worth of Prince Charming. True, the girls have to wait for him to appear, but they are quite busy in the meantime.

Now, if you want a tale where the girl does the rescuing, try "The Snow Queen."

:)

Rosie

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Weavers-Rare-Collectors/dp/1584740213

[Legomom]

Another book that recommends some fairy tales, as well as other books is "Tending the Heart of Virtue" by Vigen Gurioan. He comes from a Christian perspective and explains the value of certain stories including the Snow Queen and others. In the back of the book is a bibliography which gives specific versions. I bought the Oxford Press Fairy Tales by Hans Christian Anderson among others.

[Ohio12]

Just wanted to thank everyone that has been weighing in on this. There are some really smart and well read people on this board! These are ALL excellent insights.