Students suspended because they wouldn't stand for Pledge.

[*anj*]

This is from Minneapolis-St.Paul Star Tribune:

 

Three small-town eighth-graders in Minnesota were suspended by their principal for not standing Thursday morning for the Pledge of Allegiance, violating a district policy that the principal now says may soon be reworded to protect free speech rights.

 

What do you think of this?

If you read the article you'll find that people are already making attempts to reword the policy, but how did it get to this point?

 

I can understand the desire to encourage students to show respect in public places and for certain things, but I don't think that this is the right way to go about it. Can you legislate respect? Is this such a major thing? I don't know...

 

I can remember being a sixth grader in a new school. I'd moved from another state where I had a friend who was a Jehovah's Witness and she didn't have to stand for the Pledge. I decided that when I moved to my new school I'd just tell them it was against my religion to take part in the Pledge of Allegiance. I would remain seated while the other students participated. Finally one day the teacher sent me down to the principal's office to explain why I wouldn't do it. I told him that I just didn't want to and I didn't think I should have to. There was really nothing else they could do about it, so they left me alone. Eventually I started saying it again, but only because I felt like it.

 

That was just me being stubborn, immature, and I wanted to test out the new boundaries, I didn't have any really good reason NOT to say it.

 

But now I wonder...I don't see what the big deal is. Why is it so important for kids to say that? Does someone think that makes them better citizens? Does someone think that's the way to make them "patriotic?" I really wonder...

It's kind of like legislating religious belief. It just doesn't work.

[Elaine]

Well, bring on the negative rep:lol:

 

I think that they should have to stand for it, but that's me. I also think that it's deplorable that Obama doesn't pledge to the flag and he is running for president. That one leaves me scratching my head.:001_huh:

 

 

Go easy on me folks, I am only two points away from two dots.;)

[Karenciavo]

I'm going to disagree with you. No, I don't think saying the pledge makes one more patriotic, but that's not the issue to me. If the parents of these children notified the school that it was against their beliefs ahead of time, then fine, otherwise I see it as disrespect toward the school authority.

[CookieMonster]

not just a "school policy".

 

I thought it was federal law that students were to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, although they were not required to recite it. I thought I remembered hearing about this while I was in school - as a current issue. If I remember correctly, there were immigrants who were not standing or saying the Pledge and it caused and actual policy to be written up.

 

---------------------------

 

And, yes, I do think that somewhere you have to draw the line and say, "This is America, for crying out loud."

 

I'm going to risk my first red dots by totally agreeing with Elaine.

[Night Elf]

I don't think anyone should be forced to stand and pledge. That kind of defeats the purpose of freedom to choose. I don't think one should assume that not standing equates with a person who is willing to break laws though or someone who is not a good citizen. It reminds me of stories from the past when kings would have people punished for not bowing or whatever.

 

I always hated the pledge in school. It was weird because it had absolutely nothing to do with the rest of our day. I believe forcing kids to say it has made it a common, ordinary thing that has no meaning at all. I think it should be reserved for special occasions only.

[Elaine]

not just a "school policy".

 

I thought it was federal law that students were to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, although they were not required to recite it. I thought I remembered hearing about this while I was in school - as a current issue. If I remember correctly, there were immigrants who were not standing or saying the Pledge and it caused and actual policy to be written up.

 

---------------------------

 

And, yes, I do think that somewhere you have to draw the line and say, "This is America, for crying out loud."

 

I'm going to risk my first red dots by totally agreeing with Elaine.

 

Waaahh! It won't let me give you rep again, it's too soon. :tongue_smilie:

[kaylk in tx]

I also think that it's deplorable that Obama doesn't pledge to the flag and he is running for president. That one leaves me scratching my head.:001_huh:

 

 

Go easy on me folks, I am only two points away from two dots.;)

 

 

According to snopes, the not-pledging the flag is just another false internet rumor. And please don't slap me with negative rep. I tried to point out to other people via email that this rumor was false and I was lambasted by Republicans who didn't care if it was true or not since they didn't like him anyway. (I don't care if you like him or not, I still haven't made up my mind. Just don't like him for real reasons, ya know?) :auto:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

[Elaine]

I don't think anyone should be forced to stand and pledge. That kind of defeats the purpose of freedom to choose. I don't think one should assume that not standing equates with a person who is willing to break laws though or someone who is not a good citizen. It reminds me of stories from the past when kings would have people punished for not bowing or whatever.

 

I always hated the pledge in school. It was weird because it had absolutely nothing to do with the rest of our day. I believe forcing kids to say it has made it a common, ordinary thing that has no meaning at all. I think it should be reserved for special occasions only.

 

That is very well said.:001_smile: I agree with you to some extent.

 

I guess for me, the Pledge is an overflow of my love for my country. I consider it a privledge to be an American and I show my deep respect for my country by pledging my allegiance to the flag.

[Kay in Cal]

At what age is a child able to express their own beliefs, regardless of those of the parents? It seems to me that an 8th grader should be allowed to make their own decision in this regard, whether or not their parents agree. I might ask my 6 year old to say the pledge, but if/when he could articulate why he chose not to, then it would be his own decision.

 

Would it be better for them to say it and not mean it?

 

 

I refused to be confirmed at age 12, even though my parents were really pushing it. The pastor said "just say it, even if you don't believe it." His words kept me from the church for a long time... and it was only through my commitment to authentic faith rather than surface conformity that I found God and became a pastor myself. I realize this is a secular rather than a religious ritual, but my experience leads me to trust these kids to make thier own choices.

 

I also feel that the pledge that civil servants, from the President to members of the military, take to "support and defend the constitution" is much more meaningful and powerful as far as patriotic words go. Any time I've said those words when starting a new job (I worked several government jobs in high school and college) I felt them. I say the pledge to the flag too, but I sure wouldn't if I didn't agree with it!

[Jenny in Atl]

Well, when you attend a government school... I guess you better follow their rules. :001_huh:

[Melinda in VT]

I'm somewhat torn on this issue.

 

On the one hand, I think the polite thing to do, if one doesn't want to pledge allegiance, is to stand quietly during the pledge.

 

On the other hand, sitting quietly does not seem an offense worthy of punishment, and I think it is just silly to have a law that mandates standing during the pledge.

 

(And can I also say that I find it very, very sad that people have cause to worry about negative rep when they post a politely worded response.)

[Elaine]

According to snopes, the not-pledging the flag is just another false internet rumor. And please don't slap me with negative rep. I tried to point out to other people via email that this rumor was false and I was lambasted by Republicans who didn't care if it was true or not since they didn't like him anyway. (I don't care if you like him or not, I still haven't made up my mind. Just don't like him for real reasons, ya know?) :auto:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

 

Hey, no negative rep from me!:001_smile: I would much rather discuss the point with you than sling negative rep around.

 

The picture just speaks for itself and I feel the same way about the national anthem as I do the pledge of allegiance.

[Kay in Cal]

Except the question is, does the government have the right to require individuals to make this pledge regardless of their individual values? Rules aren't created out of a vacuum, they reflect the system (culture and government) which creates them. If freedom is the value we are pledging to, then isn't mandatory pledging a violation of that freedom? Or do you not think that freedom is the core American value?

 

Now, a private school could require whatever they want. They have no obligation to uphold those same values if they choose not to. A public school, on the other hand, does.

[*anj*]

Yabbut, w-h-y???

 

I agree that they should respect the school's authority, but it seems like an arbitrary kind of hill for the teacher to die on.

I think that eighth graders are trying to find out why this is relevant, why it's important. I don't think it's just an issue of respect but an issue of explaining why we perform this ritual. Any ritual that can't stand up to questioning is well, of questionable import.

 

Now I'm not saying that the Pledge isn't of any import, nor that it should necessarily be removed from the schools. I'm just wondering why, why is it so important that school children across the country say it?

 

And please, no neg rep for anyone. I have been trying like crazy to give Elaine good rep, but the system won't let me yet. Let's just talk, and if we disagree we can say so politely without messing up anyone's rep.

[Elaine]

 

 

And please, no neg rep for anyone. I have been trying like crazy to give Elaine good rep, but the system won't let me yet. Let's just talk, and if we disagree we can say so politely without messing up anyone's rep.

 

 

Awww, thanks Anj! It's OK, that was partially tongue-in-cheek. I'm a big girl.:D

[Book Crazy]

I am British and do not say either the Pledge or sing the American national anthem but I do stand while they are being said or sung, just as a sign of respect.

[summer]

I agree with suspending them. They would not even have that school if people had not died for them to have the freedom and rights to those schools. If they do not like America enough to stand up and show respect on occassion, then they should leave the public schools and stop using up American tax dollars. Saying the pledge is like just saying thanks once in a while. And you know what? I am betting..just betting..these same kids will have no trouble pledging to a fraternity or sorority in the future or other such things..Girl Scouts...Boy Scouts..lots of things have pledges. I think if someone is not proud to be an American, then they should just exit the country.

[*anj*]

Laney,

You've got two squares now, girlie!!!!!

:D:D:D:D

[summer]

As far as the question about does the government have the right to force the pledge on people...well..the government is not. The government says ..if you are going to be in THIS school, you will take these classes, say the pledge, not talk during instruction time, change classes when the bell rings and so on.

 

People really get too much in to "oh no!! there might be government control!!!" If they do not like government controlling things, then they should not be in the government schools. When I decided I do not like how the government schools teach, hours they keep, and so on, I did not just enroll my children and then tell them they do not have to do the work and they don't have to go when I don't want them to, and heck, they can even break in and go when they do want to.....I chose to keep my children home so I could chose what they do. If those people are so anti-government, then they just need to not be i the government schools. Can't follow the rules, don't go there.

[Elaine]

Laney,

You've got two squares now, girlie!!!!!

:D:D:D:D

 

Yes, but the board giveth and the board taketh away! :lol:

[*anj*]

Awww, thanks Anj! It's OK, that was partially tongue-in-cheek. I'm a big girl.:D

 

Oh, I know, but somebody else said it too, so I just want everyone to play nice. I've got more bickering than I can stand right here in my house. :lol:

[summer]

And for the records, Barrack Hussein Obama, who is anti-homeschooling..did refuse to say the pledge. I saw it on TV myself. He also refused to hold his hand over his heart.

[Jenny in Atl]

I agree with suspending them. They would not even have that school if people had not died for them to have the freedom and rights to those schools. If they do not like America enough to stand up and show respect on occassion, then they should leave the public schools and stop using up American tax dollars. Saying the pledge is like just saying thanks once in a while. And you know what? I am betting..just betting..these same kids will have no trouble pledging to a fraternity or sorority in the future or other such things..Girl Scouts...Boy Scouts..lots of things have pledges. I think if someone is not proud to be an American, then they should just exit the country.

 

I agree, one may not love this country, but one should show a little respect for those who have given so much of themselves so that the individual has the freedom to protest.

[*anj*]

Yes, but the board giveth and the board taketh away! :lol:

 

:smilielol5::hat::rofl:

[clarkacademy]

I think it is kind of like having Cristmas with no Jesus I mean yes individual rights are important but the simple fact you live in America and there are people dieing to give everyone the freedom's we enjoy I think if you can't pledge maybe you should not live here I just feel that if you live here if you want to work here pay taxes here you should live as an American. My sister's husband is very much mexican they do not live as such my neices are as American as they come and I did ask him once why they do not celebrate Mexican holiday's etc his reply was If I wanted to live as they did in Mexico then I should have stayed there I came to America for a reason and it was to be American the day he learned the pledge was a proud day for family the day my best friend since childhood said goodbye to her husband and childhood sweetheart to go to Iraq was a sad one for family I think saying the pledge as well as the fact God is included is something that should be honored and respected this is America and I think paople are taking for granted what they have what has been fought for is becoming too much of a history story for children to read like Charlote's Web People have died for us people we never knew Respect Honor That is what this country was built on Too many no longer have those things. I hope saying how we feel stay's nice and polite on this thread as well I do hope we can agree to disagree :grouphug:

[j.griff]

I agree with suspending them. They would not even have that school if people had not died for them to have the freedom and rights to those schools. If they do not like America enough to stand up and show respect on occassion, then they should leave the public schools and stop using up American tax dollars. Saying the pledge is like just saying thanks once in a while. And you know what? I am betting..just betting..these same kids will have no trouble pledging to a fraternity or sorority in the future or other such things..Girl Scouts...Boy Scouts..lots of things have pledges. I think if someone is not proud to be an American, then they should just exit the country.

 

WHY for the love of Pete (or whomever you'd rather name) should one be PROUD of where they are born or where they live?!?!?!?!!?!?!? This line of thinking makes absolutely no sense to me. I live in this country because I was born here. My husband was born here, he works here (for the military :lol: ). *I* do want to live in another country some day. *I* don't believe in pledging allegiance to an inanimate object. *I* don't believe in anyone being coerced into pledging anything to anyone/thing for any reason.

Whether they CHOOSE to pledge to a fraternity later in life has absofrigginlutely NOTHING to do with being forced to say a stupid pledge to a piece of cloth that they have the FREEDOM to not believe in. Give me a break.

[clarkacademy]

Summer your post is wonderful!!!

[j.griff]

This is ridiculous, IMO. So, children who don't want to pledge allegiance should be deported to another country?

It's just an archaic stupid custom, and the reason they want them to stand and repeat the pledge is to ingrain it in their brains from an early age. They want to train those little people to be good "citizens", and to be good pegs that will fit nicely in place in the machine of our economy. Blech.

[Book Crazy]

*I* don't believe in pledging allegiance to an inanimate object.

 

 

I have the same feelings. I'm in the process of becoming a US citizen. I'm married to an American and my son was born here. When I become "American", it will say on my passport that I'm American, but inside I will still be British and no matter where I living or what my passport may say, I will always be British.

 

I will always stand when the pledge is being said as a sign of respect, just as I would excpet some one to stand for "God Save the Queen." I don't excpet you to sing along, but show respect.

[j.griff]

Yes, but here we have the freedom to choose whether other people's expectations dictate our actions or not.

I just don't understand why people can't be tolerant of differing ideas/beliefs. Is it some sort of threat to your (general you) personal security if another person refuses to stand for the pledge/anthem/etc.? Who cares if someone doesn't like it and doesn't want to participate? I think it would be more honorable to follow one's own convictions and not stand, and celebrate their freedom to NOT do so than to go along with being coerced in our "free" country. Doesn't that honor the death of those soldiers more so? To USE the freedom you've been given as a result of their sacrifice? How does stuffing your own feelings/expression in order to conform honor another's death, when they died defending your personal rights to freedom of expression?

[Mrs Mungo]

And for the records, Barrack Hussein Obama, who is anti-homeschooling..did refuse to say the pledge. I saw it on TV myself. He also refused to hold his hand over his heart.

 

And I've seen him say the pledge MANY times in Congress on CSPAN. There are videos on Snopes of him with his hand over his heart and saying the pledge and National Anthem in other venues.

 

eta: the videos are at the bottom of this page http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp do not spread unjust and unfounded rumours just because you don't like a candidate.

 

That said, it is not legal for a school to require students to say the pledge.

 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

 

From the concurring opinion:

Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions.

 

Since that decision it has been the norm not to punish students as long as they are respectful and not disruptive.

 

Aren't we in favor of freedom?

[kaylk in tx]

Hey, no negative rep from me!:001_smile: I would much rather discuss the point with you than sling negative rep around.

 

The picture just speaks for itself and I feel the same way about the national anthem as I do the pledge of allegiance.

 

Flag Etiquette by Emily Post

The National Anthem

Everyone, even very young children, should rise and remain standing during the playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner." It is not easy to sing, and you need not do so if you do not have the necessary range or "ear," but you must stand quietly until you hear "O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

If you are on the way to your seat at a sports event, or in any public place, when the strain, 'Oh say, can you see, by the dawn's early light," sounds, stop where you are and stand at attention until the end. Don't talk, chew gum loudly, eat or smoke during the singing of the anthem.

 

According to this, his posture during that picture of standing with his hands clasped in front of him IS an acceptable way to act during the national anthem.

[*anj*]

 

I will always stand when the pledge is being said as a sign of respect, just as I would excpet some one to stand for "God Save the Queen." I don't excpet you to sing along, but show respect.

 

Well, yes. And I would absolutely do that, the same way I stand when I hear our National Anthem, Pledge, etc. But (and Book Crazy, this next part isn't directed to you) I don't think that a person's devotion to the ideals of his or her country can or should be measured by their participation in a ritual. I guess I'm just always looking for the heart of things. What's at the heart of liberty and justice for all? What's at the heart of letting freedom ring? It's more than just conformity to a rule. It's more than just an outward sign of respect. I think that if the kids didn't want to stand maybe they should've written an essay explaining why they didn't want to take part in the saying of the Pledge, or their definition of freedom or something.

 

And I do think it's a red herring to argue that if people don't want to stand for the Pledge they aren't honoring their hard-won freedom and should leave the country.

[Mama Lynx]

First of all, I don't think you should be disrespectful to refuse to stand during the oath or anthem of any country, especially your own, unless you are *very* dissatisfied and are making a deliberate statement that said country is not worth your respect.

 

You have the freedom to make such a statement; on the other hand, actions have consequences. If you make such a statement, depending on where, when, and how you make it, there may be consequences. There is no honor or merit to your statement of your feelings or beliefs if you then whine about or refuse to accept the consequences.

 

In a public school setting, discipline is easier to maintain when you can get the student body to act together, to show respect in the same ways to the same things, and to agree to be bound by the same ideals and principles. In reality, I think standing and saying the Pledge is one way of asserting psychological control. Which is *badly* needed in many public schools.

 

I think it's ridiculous to suspend these students. For me, it's kind of like the draft: If enough people don't believe in America to stand up and defend her, perhaps we don't deserve to be defended. I think saying the pledge should be voluntary, and a matter of conscience. Otherwise, what's the point? You can't legislate patriotism. If you do, you've missed the idea. However, it's extremely rude to not show conventional respect, and if schools allow some students to sit and some to stand, whenever, however they feel like, it's one more way that discipline will degenerate. The schools really can't afford any more of that.

 

So I say suspension is ridiculous, but some disciplinary action should be taken.

[CookieMonster]

It's just an archaic stupid custom, and the reason they want them to stand and repeat the pledge is to ingrain it in their brains from an early age. They want to train those little people to be good "citizens", and to be good pegs that will fit nicely in place in the machine of our economy. Blech.

 

I respectfully, and strongly disagree. If you really believe this, I am very sorry for you.

 

In indirect answer to the tone of your posts I would like to say that FREEDOM, American-Style, is not the unmititgated license to do whatever you please. American Freedom is the idea of having the freedom to do that which is right, without government interference. American Freedom is rule of the majority, with respect and cosideration of the minority. American Freedom is not the majority giving up their beliefs and practices for the minority.

 

And now I've probably said too much, because I know I believe the above, but I couldn't explain it any further if asked.

[kaylk in tx]

And for the records, Barrack Hussein Obama, who is anti-homeschooling..did refuse to say the pledge. I saw it on TV myself. He also refused to hold his hand over his heart.

 

 

it would seem that he's NOT anti-homeschooling...

 

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/NewHampshireEducatorsforObama/CJxd

[Mrs Mungo]

American Freedom is rule of the majority, with respect and cosideration of the minority.

 

Actually, this is not exactly true.

 

The Consitution (we're all in favor of The Constitution, yes?) is in place to *protect* the minority from the tyranny of the majority. That's the actual point of it. John Stuart Mill and de Tocqueville refer to it frequently in their works.

 

American Freedom is not the majority giving up their beliefs and practices for the minority.

 

Nobody has asked for that. However, the minority is not required to conform to the will of the majority in all cases.

[Kathleen in VA]

I don't think it is possible to know why these kids do not want to say the pledge. Perhaps they are just being jerky 8th graders who want to push the limits of authority and be disruptive. Perhaps not. There was nothing in the article suggesting they had done anything but remained seated.

 

This is an issue of freedom of conscience. I am patriotic. I cry when I hear The Star Spangled Banner; I stand up and clap loudly at a parade when I see the VFW guys go buy in their truck. I put my hand on my heart and recite the pledge when I go to ceremonies at the Civil Air Patrol my sons are members of. That is what *my* conscience requires of me. I would not want to be forced to violate my conscience.

 

No one, not adults - not 8th graders, not pre-schoolers - no one should be forced to promise anything against their conscience. This is what our soldiers have fought for down through our history - freedom of conscience. Whether or not I agree with someone's choices based on *their* conscience is absolutely beside the point.

 

Making rules for the sake of order is reasonable. Rules about what you must promise are completely out of line. Whether these boys are trying to get attention or not, their decision to sit out the pledge should be respected. It would be a life lesson about what this country stands for. Maybe when they mature and look back on this incident they will be proud to say the pledge. That is, if those in authority over them now would allow them to behave according to the dictates of their conscience as long as they are not harming anyone by doing so.

 

JMHO,

Kathleen in VA

www.homeschoolblogger.com/lavendersblue

[astrid]

Actually, this is not exactly true.

 

The Consitution (we're all in favor of The Constitution, yes?) is in place to *protect* the minority from the tyranny of the majority. That's the actual point of it. John Stuart Mill and de Tocqueville refer to it frequently in their works.

 

 

 

Nobody has asked for that. However, the minority is not required to conform to the will of the majority in all cases.

 

Well said, Mrs. Mungo!

 

Frankly, the intolerance shown by some in this thread is disturbing. Throwing around blatant untruths such as the one about Obama not saluting the flag as Gospel truth because "you saw it on TV" is just one example.

 

It's just this sort of "prove-yourself-worthy-of-being-an-American," and "you're either with us or against us" mentality that makes me, on occasion, very ashamed of my country and current government.

 

Let the neg reps roll.......

[Elaine]

Well said, Mrs. Mungo!

 

Frankly, the intolerance shown by some in this thread is disturbing. Throwing around blatant untruths such as the one about Obama not saluting the flag as Gospel truth because "you saw it on TV" is just one example.

 

It's just this sort of "prove-yourself-worthy-of-being-an-American," and "you're either with us or against us" mentality that makes me, on occasion, very ashamed of my country and current government.

 

Let the neg reps roll.......

 

 

I don't see intolerance.:001_huh: I see respectful and polite discussion.

[j.griff]

*I* stand during the anthem, out of respect for my husband. :)

 

*I* don't think it's disrespectful to not stand during the anthem though. I can think of LOTS of very valid reasons why one might not stand. I think it's very presumptious and rude for people to apply a label of "disrespect" to another persons decision to not go along with the crowd.

 

I agree that schools try to assert psychological control over the students, and I don't think that's a "good" thing, especially as far as personal rights/choices are concerned. I don't think there is any reason to take any sort of disciplinary action against the students.

[j.griff]

Oooookay. I've seen more than one post stating that if you don't want to stand for the pledge then you should not live here. That, my dear, is intolerance.

[Elaine]

Oooookay. I've seen more than one post stating that if you don't want to stand for the pledge then you should not live here. That, my dear, is intolerance.

 

 

 

I think it's opinion, not intolerance. No one is saying "Do this or else." They are voicing strong opinion, same as you.

 

 

 

I really don't appreciate the tone of your answer.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I agree with Jenny. Unless it's a matter of God's law over man's, my kids would follow gov't school rules if they went to one. Now, we don't recite the pledge of allegiance and when my kids did go to school (8 weeks in 2001), they stood respectfully. However, if one of my kids were to express a conscience issue over doing even that, I would expect, if they attended school, for them to approach the right people in the right order in order to get that okay'd (and then if it couldn't be handled, have me help). Just not doing it wouldn't be an option as I would consider that a discipline issue considering there is a rule to be followed.

 

JMO

 

ETA: I didn't read the rest of the thread, only skimmed the first page and this one I'm posted on.

[j.griff]

Wow. I completely agree to disagree with you on this. My "tone" wasn't intended to offend.

Words and opinion are what intolerance is made of. Telling people they shouldn't live here, for ANY reason, is intolerant of those very people and their thoughts/beliefs/way of life. I don't "get" how saying whether a person should live in a country or not is not a matter of tolerance.

[astrid]

I think it's opinion, not intolerance. No one is saying "Do this or else." They are voicing strong opinion, same as you.

I really don't appreciate the tone of your answer.

 

Okay, here's this:

I mean yes individual rights are important but the simple fact you live in America and there are people dieing to give everyone the freedom's we enjoy I think if you can't pledge maybe you should not live here

 

And this:

If they do not like America enough to stand up and show respect on occassion, then they should leave the public schools and stop using up American tax dollars.

 

And this:

If those people are so anti-government, then they just need to not be i the government schools. Can't follow the rules, don't go there.

 

Okay, so let me rephrase it--- these intolerant points of view are disheartening to me. I find it the "love it or leave it" mentality disturbing.

 

Just because one doesn't like a particular candidate doesn't mean that it's okay to start repeating untruths in an attempt to slam him/her. Really. Can't we get beyond that? Aren't we all about seeking the truth here? Shouldn't we be checking facts?

 

I"m sorry......but it makes me think we'll never find common ground. And that makes me sad.

[Mamagistra]

According to snopes, the not-pledging the flag is just another false internet rumor. And please don't slap me with negative rep. I tried to point out to other people via email that this rumor was false and I was lambasted by Republicans who didn't care if it was true or not since they didn't like him anyway. (I don't care if you like him or not, I still haven't made up my mind. Just don't like him for real reasons, ya know?) :auto:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

 

:iagree:

[Mamagistra]

Hey, Colleen...didn't you get in trouble for this very offense? Am I remembering correctly? :001_smile::lurk5:

[Mrs Mungo]

I have to agree a bit that I find the "love it or leave it" mentality intolerant.

 

I also think insisting upon using "Barack Hussein Obama" with his middle name smacks of intolerance *when* it is used with the intent of invoking a negative response. I don't think we should judge someone on the basis of their cultural heritage.

[Karenciavo]

No one, not adults - not 8th graders, not pre-schoolers - no one should be forced to promise anything against their conscience. This is what our soldiers have fought for down through our history - freedom of conscience. Whether or not I agree with someone's choices based on *their* conscience is absolutely beside the point.

 

They weren't forced to promise anything, they were told to stand. They didn't have to say a word. They didn't have to make any gestures that went against conscience, all they had to do was stand. If they view standing out of respect as something against their conscience it should be addressed ahead of time. *If it was a spontaneous response to an act that they had never come across before then by all means don't follow the rules and accept the consequences. Suffering for righteousness is not a bad thing.