Prayers for a Supreme Court of Canada case

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Tomorrow, Wednesday May 18th, a Quebec family will stand in front of the Supreme Court of Canada.

 

The issue is the provincial gvt of Quebec making a course called Ethics and Religious Culture mandatory in schools, from grade 1 to grade 11 (we don't have a grade 12). This course is a hogwash of 8 or 9 religions, at a very superficial level, ensuring that the student will end up with the idea that all religions are superficial, equal, and unecessary.

 

Here's a blog post in English (the blog itself is in French, that blog post is English)

http://pouruneecolelibre.blogspot.com/2011/05/evangelical-fellowship-of-canada-to.html

 

This course is mandatory for public schools, private schools and homeschools.

 

One private school has won a fight against the govt, but the govt is appealing. You can read about this fight here:

http://spon.ca/loyolas-good-fight/2010/06/29/

 

 

This case will determine parental rights vs govt in the whole of Canada.

:eek:

Edited May 18, 2011 by CleoQc

[Starr]

I'll keep this in my prayers! These courses that tend to deny the particulars don't do any religion any service! What happened to Catholic Quebec? You can come across the river and live at my house. :)

[OregonNative]

Geez! I'll be praying. Keep us posted.

[SonshineLearner]

Sorry... crazy.... more government intrusion :( Hope it turns/turned out right :)

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

What happened to Catholic Quebec? You can come across the river and live at my house. :)

 

Catholic Quebec ceased to exist a generation ago....

 

Where do you live? I might be headed that way soon. (wherever that way is...)

[Colleen in NS]

Tomorrow, Wednesday May 18th, a Quebec family will stand in front of the Supreme Court of Canada.

 

The issue is the provincial gvt of Quebec making a course called Ethics and Religious Culture mandatory in schools, from grade 1 to grade 11 (we don't have a grade 12). This course is a hogwash of 8 or 9 religions, at a very superficial level, ensuring that the student will end up with the idea that all religions are superficial, equal, and unecessary.

 

Here's a blog post in English (the blog itself is in French, that blog post is English)

http://pouruneecolelibre.blogspot.com/2011/05/evangelical-fellowship-of-canada-to.html

 

This course is mandatory for public schools, private schools and homeschools.

 

One private school has won a fight against the govt, but the govt is appealing. You can read about this fight here:

http://spon.ca/loyolas-good-fight/2010/06/29/

 

 

This case will determine parental rights vs govt in the whole of Canada.

:eek:

 

UGH!!! I just go an e-mail about this. Will be praying tomorrow!

[Harriet Vane]

:grouphug:

[Rosie_0801]

Fingers crossed.

 

If they are going to MAKE you do something, it should be doing something properly. I hate it when policies are made that take what would be perfectly legitimate subjects if they were served separately and put them through a blender. :mad:

 

Rosie

[Teachin'Mine]

Praying for this family and a good deal of Solomon's wisdom for the judges. :grouphug: I had no idea how things have changed in Quebec. :confused:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Praying and bumping this

[Harriet Vane]

Praying and bumping this

 

Let us know how it turns out . . .

[Aquinas Academy]

This makes me so nervous. I'm praying!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Link to an article:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/05/18/barbara-kay-court-will-decide-if-quebec-allows-a-choice-in-religious-education/

 

In their factum, the lawyers pose the question: “Can the state impose, without the possibility of an exemption, a program of study about religion and ethics on parents who view it as infringing on their religious beliefs and their freedom of conscience? Such is the stake in this case.â€

 

Thus, children are taught, for example, that witches “are women like any other in daily life.†And “Technologically [the Raelians] are 25,000 years in advance of us.†And, considering that only 700 of Quebec’s aboriginals identify themselves with aboriginal spirituality (the vast majority of ethnic aboriginals are Christian), aboriginal myths are accorded absurdly disproportionate reverence.

 

I don't even know if the Raelians are known outside of French countries... Weird, weird cult... Definitely not worthy of being discussed in a classroom.

 

I also like this one:

Aside from a violation of parents’ rights to morally instruct their children, such a critically vacuous prescription is an insult to the intelligence, equally offensive to the religious and atheists alike.

 

The program is equally offensive to religious and atheists. The only ones it doesn't offend are those with no spirituality.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you for posting the article. I've been looking for information on this case. What's the current status? Is this expected to be a lengthy trial, or are they just deliberating now?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

What's the current status? Is this expected to be a lengthy trial' date=' or are they just deliberating now?[/quote']

 

It's hard to say. The only article I found so far is in French.

http://pouruneecolelibre.blogspot.com/2011/05/juge-puinee-deschamps-leglise.html

 

According to that article, one judge is misinformed in thinking that Catholics believe in Creationism. She wants to protect all kids from the horrors of Creationism. She also states that she's fine with the idea that all religions are human creations.

[LidiyaDawn]

Anyone else find some of the stuff in the National Post article kinda…rude? Insulting?

 

According to its inventors, the ERC curricula are designed to sensitize students to the tenets of Quebec’s rich array of religious beliefs – the major religions, plus native myths and even Wiccan beliefs

 

"and even" ? is this where the *gasp* is supposed to be inserted?

 

Thus, children are taught, for example, that witches “are women like any other in daily life.â€

 

I'm pretty sure we have some Witches and/or Wiccans on this board ~ perhaps they'd like to let us know if they're some sort of strange ladies unlike "any other in daily life".

 

And “Technologically [the Raelians] are 25,000 years in advance of us.â€

 

I only know a little bit about the Raelians, but I doubt that the program teaches students that they ARE technologically advanced - perhaps it teaches that this is one of the Raelians' beliefs?

 

And, considering that only 700 of Quebec’s aboriginals identify themselves with aboriginal spirituality (the vast majority of ethnic aboriginals are Christian), aboriginal myths are accorded absurdly disproportionate reverence.

 

a) I don't know about Quebec's aboriginals *specifically* - but I highly doubt that the vast majority of them have converted to Christianity.

 

b) I get the impression that the author used the word "myth" here specifically as a negative thing….

 

c) "absurdly disproportionate reverence" -- ??? opinionated exaggeration?

 

blech. I don't even want to pick out the rest… the whole thing just sounds really .. slanted? or something?

 

I wish I could see the program for myself… I'd like to know what it REALLY teaches.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Anyone else find some of the stuff in the National Post article kinda…rude? Insulting? <snip>

I wish I could see the program for myself… I'd like to know what it REALLY teaches.

 

It's got to be read in the context of Quebec society, where Wicca is almost unheard of, there should not be a 'gasp' of shock here, but one of surprise. Wicca takes no space in our public sphere whatsoever. I vaguely remember one guy trying to get elected in BC that stated he was Wicca. He was laughed out of the race. Sorry Wiccans, I know how you feel. I considered myself wiccan at that time and it was painful but it's the reality of the Canadian religious landscape and even more so of the Quebec one.

 

As for our aboriginals, yes, most of them have converted. Some are trying to rediscover their ancestors' religion, but it's not the norm. At the last census, it was something like 0.7% of the population stated they belonged to one aboriginal religion or another. And yet it represents nearly 20% of the curriculum.

Edited May 19, 2011 by CleoQc

[Michele B]

"To compel tolerance is to dispense with it" Wow - that is powerful! I am posting that quotation everywhere I can.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

One more link, from a decidedly Catholic point of view

http://www.catholicregister.org/canada/quebec-parents-challenge-ethics-and-religious-culture-course

 

(please note that other denominations are also involved. I just get the Catholic links because I don't know where to find the othersCo-counsel Mark Pratt told the court “the state has no right to program people” in arguing for the prior rights of parents to educate their children and to choose how that education is delegated. Many of the questions from the bench concerned whether the onus should be on the parents to prove harm, or whether the state had the onus to prove its course was neutral on religion.. There are Evangelists, atheists, muslims and jews involved. Kinda funny that these religions/denomations/lack of religion have found something to unite them!)

 

Co-counsel Mark Pratt told the court “the state has no right to program people” in arguing for the prior rights of parents to educate their children and to choose how that education is delegated. Many of the questions from the bench concerned whether the onus should be on the parents to prove harm, or whether the state had the onus to prove its course was neutral on religion.

 

“For us Catholics, tolerance is about accepting all persons, but not about accepting all ideas. That would go directly against our faith. That distinction is not understood by the Attorney General.”

[sheryl]

I'm just now reading a little of the thread and I'm so sorry to hear that. Today is TH....what was the outcome?

 

All people who oppose this should be praying so as it could have a domino effect in other countries.

 

I certainly don't want my country "dicating" curriculum choice to me. That's one reason why I homeschool and don't use the ps system.

 

Hope all went well.

[LidiyaDawn]

It's got to be read in the context of Quebec society, where Wicca is almost unheard of, there should not be a 'gasp' of shock here, but one of surprise. Wicca takes no space in our public sphere whatsoever. I vaguely remember one guy trying to get elected in BC that stated he was Wicca. He was laughed out of the race. Sorry Wiccans, I know how you feel. I considered myself wiccan at that time and it was painful but it's the reality of the Canadian religious landscape and even more so of the Quebec one.

 

As for our aboriginals, yes, most of them have converted. Some are trying to rediscover their ancestors' religion, but it's not the norm. At the last census, it was something like 0.7% of the population stated they belonged to one aboriginal religion or another. And yet it represents nearly 20% of the curriculum.

 

I guess the wording mightn't have surprised me as much if it had come from a small Quebec-based Christian magazine or something….know what I mean?

 

I think I have a different view of the "Canadian religious landscape" - I always thought Canada as a whole was pretty accepting of many faiths… although I know, Quebec is a cat of a different colour in many ways. (That isn't a slam - I've never had a bad experience traveling through or visiting in Quebec… although I *have* been laughed at for my pathetic attempts to speak French :p )

 

Meh…the tone of the article just… grrrr. (I am just that articulate today, yes.)

 

[no doubt in part because i've been trying to sort out my own 'religious' views over the past while and then some.]

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm just now reading a little of the thread and I'm so sorry to hear that. Today is TH....what was the outcome?

 

All people who oppose this should be praying so as it could have a domino effect in other countries.

 

I certainly don't want my country "dicating" curriculum choice to me. That's one reason why I homeschool and don't use the ps system.

 

Hope all went well.

 

Not sure what the process is in Canada. In the US, there can be a couple month gap between oral arguments and rulings being handed down by the court.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the statement in a previous post that there is a difference between treating all people with respect and believing that all ideas are equal. (I personally find that when these overarching religious orientation courses are proposed, it is often proposed and written by people who would classify all of the religions as equally mythological.)

Edited May 19, 2011 by Sebastian (a lady)

[sheryl]

OK, thanks. I'll pray then....knowing it will take a while for a decision!

 

Keep us posted.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

IQuebec is a cat of a different colour in many ways.

 

We are, we definitely are. completely different colour.

 

In my part of the country, we're very accepting of other religions, sometimes too much, I think. There's some sort of unwritten rule though, is that your (or my) religion should be hidden from others. The vast majority believes all religions were created by man to control his fellow men, and that all religions are inherently evil and to be avoided. So the tone of the National Post article didn't surprise me at all (even if I don't agree with that position). So whenever an accomodation is requested, it's sneered at.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I certainly don't want my country "dicating" curriculum choice to me. That's one reason why I homeschool and don't use the ps system.

 

Hope all went well.

 

We're not even talking curriculum choices here! We're talking religion choices! The province wants to impose its state religion on everyone (including homeschoolers, btw)

[Retired]

We're not even talking curriculum choices here! We're talking religion choices! The province wants to impose its state religion on everyone (including homeschoolers, btw)

 

I will be praying. I know you Canadians get tired of us Americans talking about "government control" We really are fighting to keep our rights.

 

I don't know your "government system" but to American "freedom of religion" is a big constitution issue for us.

 

I hope your courts will borrow from our Constitution;)

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

:bigear: Subbing for updates.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

 

I don't know your "government system" but to American "freedom of religion" is a big constitution issue for us.

 

We do have freedom of religion, but does it extent to our kids? And how does it extent?

 

We've already had a case in Canada where a Jehova's Witness child had to undergo a blood transfusion in order to survive, against the parents' wishes.

 

A parent's freedom of religion, guaranteed under s. 2(a) of the Charter, does not include the imposition of religious practices which threaten the safety, health or life of the child. Although the freedom of belief may be broad, the freedom to act upon those beliefs is considerably narrower, as it is subject to such limitations as are necessary to protect the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.

http://scc.lexum.org/en/1995/1995scr1-315/1995scr1-315.html

 

Now 'people' want to stop anyone holding a religious belief from 'indoctrinating' a child. It is seen as a fundamental right to not be indoctrinated.

[Colleen in NS]

We do have freedom of religion, but does it extent to our kids? And how does it extent?

 

We've already had a case in Canada where a Jehova's Witness child had to undergo a blood transfusion in order to survive, against the parents' wishes.

 

 

http://scc.lexum.org/en/1995/1995scr1-315/1995scr1-315.html

 

Now 'people' want to stop anyone holding a religious belief from 'indoctrinating' a child. It is seen as a fundamental right to not be indoctrinated.

 

I'm getting confused - are there other less severe (than the JW case you mentioned above) events going on, where it's not about the child's safety, health, and life? Where religious "indoctrination" by parents is being questioned? Is there anything I can read about this supposed fundamental right not to be indoctrinated?

[nmoira]

 

We've already had a case in Canada where a Jehova's Witness child had to undergo a blood transfusion in order to survive, against the parents' wishes.

The Oregon Legislature only this year closed the last loophole allowing some children to be treated with faith healing practices instead of receiving conventional medical intervention. There's a Followers of Christ graveyard in Oregon City with numerous graves of babies, children (and adults) who had relatively straightforward conditions or diseases that could be been cured with standard medical procedures. I don't think closing the loophole is a bad thing. Edited May 19, 2011 by nmoira

[nmoira]

 

I'm getting confused - are there other less severe (than the JW case you mentioned above) events going on, where it's not about the child's safety, health, and life? Where religious "indoctrination" by parents is being questioned? Is there anything I can read about this supposed fundamental right not to be indoctrinated?

:bigear:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I'm getting confused - are there other less severe (than the JW case you mentioned above) events going on, where it's not about the child's safety, health, and life? Where religious "indoctrination" by parents is being questioned? Is there anything I can read about this supposed fundamental right not to be indoctrinated?

 

Actually yes. It's in another thread, where homeschooled kids have been sent back to school, including two kids that are not of compulsory age. They've been ordered to attend daycare so as to get them out of the 'grip' of their Catholic parents.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273189

[Colleen in NS]

Actually yes. It's in another thread, where homeschooled kids have been sent back to school, including two kids that are not of compulsory age. They've been ordered to attend daycare so as to get them out of the 'grip' of their Catholic parents.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273189

 

I followed that thread, but didn't know the case was about religious indoctrination. After re-reading the linked article, I can see how it could be. And in it I read the following quote by you, which made me think there were other things going on in Canada, so I thought I'd ask you about it here.

 

A 'funny' tidbit that I learned is that in Canada, you have freedom of religion but it does not extend to your kids.

 

So that's why I asked if there was anything else you knew about (that wasn't as drastic as the JW case) that I could read. I just don't know where to find info. like this.

 

I'll be watching closely to see what develops!

[Colleen in NS]

This case will determine parental rights vs govt in the whole of Canada.

:eek:

 

Oh, I forgot - I had also read this, and wondered, so that's another reason why I asked.

 

I'm sorry if I seem dense - sometimes it takes me awhile to piece things together!

[Audrey]

I will be praying. I know you Canadians get tired of us Americans talking about "government control" We really are fighting to keep our rights.

 

I don't know your "government system" but to American "freedom of religion" is a big constitution issue for us.

 

I hope your courts will borrow from our Constitution;)

 

 

Freedom of religion is in the Canadian constitution as well. Quebec never signed the Canadian constitution.

[Audrey]

Anyone else find some of the stuff in the National Post article kinda…rude? Insulting?

 

According to its inventors, the ERC curricula are designed to sensitize students to the tenets of Quebec’s rich array of religious beliefs – the major religions, plus native myths and even Wiccan beliefs

 

"and even" ? is this where the *gasp* is supposed to be inserted?

 

Thus, children are taught, for example, that witches “are women like any other in daily life.â€

 

I'm pretty sure we have some Witches and/or Wiccans on this board ~ perhaps they'd like to let us know if they're some sort of strange ladies unlike "any other in daily life".

 

 

 

I am just like any other woman in daily life.

 

With the exception of the newt-eye necklace and broom-stick flying, of course. :tongue_smilie:

[WishboneDawn]

Anyone else find some of the stuff in the National Post article kinda…rude? Insulting?

 

According to its inventors, the ERC curricula are designed to sensitize students to the tenets of Quebec’s rich array of religious beliefs – the major religions, plus native myths and even Wiccan beliefs

 

"and even" ? is this where the *gasp* is supposed to be inserted?

 

Thus, children are taught, for example, that witches “are women like any other in daily life.”

 

I'm pretty sure we have some Witches and/or Wiccans on this board ~ perhaps they'd like to let us know if they're some sort of strange ladies unlike "any other in daily life".

 

And “Technologically [the Raelians] are 25,000 years in advance of us.”

 

I only know a little bit about the Raelians, but I doubt that the program teaches students that they ARE technologically advanced - perhaps it teaches that this is one of the Raelians' beliefs?

 

And, considering that only 700 of Quebec’s aboriginals identify themselves with aboriginal spirituality (the vast majority of ethnic aboriginals are Christian), aboriginal myths are accorded absurdly disproportionate reverence.

 

a) I don't know about Quebec's aboriginals *specifically* - but I highly doubt that the vast majority of them have converted to Christianity.

 

b) I get the impression that the author used the word "myth" here specifically as a negative thing….

 

c) "absurdly disproportionate reverence" -- ??? opinionated exaggeration?

 

blech. I don't even want to pick out the rest… the whole thing just sounds really .. slanted? or something?

 

I wish I could see the program for myself… I'd like to know what it REALLY teaches.

 

Yup. But then again, it's the National Post.:glare:

 

I agree about seeing the actual program. The NPs filters are probably set to "pander".

[WishboneDawn]

I am just like any other woman in daily life.

 

With the exception of the newt-eye necklace and broom-stick flying, of course. :tongue_smilie:

 

You're on the top of my most-wanted list...for an afternoon of tea and cheesecake. If you ever fly down to NS you're welcome to park the broom here for a bit. :D

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Yup. But then again, it's the National Post.:glare:

 

I agree about seeing the actual program. The NPs filters are probably set to "pander".

 

Trust me, I've seen the program. It's written in a way to offend every one, even Wiccan :tongue_smilie:

 

The Raelians are probably happy with it, because it will make recruiting easier for them. And Native people are very well represented, although I think the program managed to get quite a few things wrong with them too.