CC-How would you take this advice from your Pastor?

[Harriet Vane]

Thanks all, I really appreciate all the responses.

 

One of you posted that it looks like God is placing stumbling blocks in my in an effort to guide me elsewhwere. This thought has not left my mind since I read it.

 

I've completed my letter resignation letter listing the ways the church is in non-compliance and the ways in which I've tried to resolve each issue.

 

I'm sending it to the church, pastor, head elder and district treasurer. I'll also send a certified copy to myself and attach it unopened to my copy of the letter.

 

I must admit, I am feeling a little guilty leaving them in the lurch, but I really see no other way. If I continue, I am culpable. I've given them ample opportunity to change their ways. It's to the point now where I'm being ostracized in the church.

 

Again, thanks for all your help!

 

:grouphug:

 

Good for you. You have done all that is in your power to resolve this. Now others will have to decide how best to handle this--their choices are their responsibility.

[RayDad]

Document everything. Resign your position. Report the church's wrong doing. You will be the one they come after if you don't report it.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks. I hadn't thought of sending a certified letter with specifics to the church. I've brought it up at council meetings and voter assemblies so it is part of the church record, but the way this church does business it wouldn't surprise me if they changed their records.

 

This elder keeps insisting that they are too small to follow GAAP and certain IRS regulations. He insists that the IRS has no rights regarding the church's finances. I've shown him the proof and had the district treasurer back me up.

 

Typing this all out, it really sounds bad. I've tried so hard to make them see and some of the congregation does see, but no one is willing to stand by my side, least of all those in positions of power.

 

I know there are sinners everywhere, which is why i've tried to make this church work for so long. There are a few churches, within and with out my denomination that I plan to visit.

 

Thanks for all the :grouphug:, well wishes and advice. I need to protect myself and my family.

 

I'm not familiar with the organization of this denomination. If there is a hierarchy where other church officials could have some influence on the accounting and accountability at the church, then I might suggest sending an info copy of your resignation to the next tier of church officials (ie, district treasurer and his/her boss). This will give the denomination the information they need to determine if they need to take further action to bring the church finances in line.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm not familiar with the organization of this denomination. If there is a hierarchy where other church officials could have some influence on the accounting and accountability at the church, then I might suggest sending an info copy of your resignation to the next tier of church officials (ie, district treasurer and his/her boss). This will give the denomination the information they need to determine if they need to take further action to bring the church finances in line.

 

I agree with this.

I would think that the DP and maybe the LCEF or district stewardship officer should be informed.

They have seen problems like this before, and although it's very serious, I'm sure that they have procedures in place to handle it.

Make the letter very positive and factual--not reflective of hard feelings.

Also, if you end up at another LCMS church, please talk privately with the pastor there and let him know what happened, especially the part about your trying to be a peacemaker yourself. That way he won't necessarily believe it if he hears something negative about you, and also he won't be on guard from the outset.

[Cheryl in NM]

Document everything. Resign your position. Report the church's wrong doing. You will be the one they come after if you don't report it.

Done. I'm resigning tonight and turning in my key.

 

I'm not familiar with the organization of this denomination. If there is a hierarchy where other church officials could have some influence on the accounting and accountability at the church, then I might suggest sending an info copy of your resignation to the next tier of church officials (ie, district treasurer and his/her boss). This will give the denomination the information they need to determine if they need to take further action to bring the church finances in line.

I am sending a copy of my letter to district above our church. Basically, the next step up the ladder.

 

I agree with this.

I would think that the DP and maybe the LCEF or district stewardship officer should be informed.

They have seen problems like this before, and although it's very serious, I'm sure that they have procedures in place to handle it.

Make the letter very positive and factual--not reflective of hard feelings.

Also, if you end up at another LCMS church, please talk privately with the pastor there and let him know what happened, especially the part about your trying to be a peacemaker yourself. That way he won't necessarily believe it if he hears something negative about you, and also he won't be on guard from the outset.

Sending the letter to the district treasurer and since the church is a mission church with an LCEF mortgage, I'm sure the information will trickle over to LCEF. I also expect a phone call from the LCEF VP, who was our loan rep and counsel me a year go about how other churches in our situation handle their finances. I know the district treasurer will also share the info with the district president.

I plan to talk to any pastor before joining another church to briefly and generically explain what happened. It is not my intention to "sink" this church. I wish it hadn't come to this. These people are all older than me and should know better. I'm supposed to be able to count on my elders as examples. It's very dis-heartening.

[astrid]

I would get out before you're audited. You've done your best. Let them break the law on their own. :grouphug:

 

Yup. I certainly don't have any spiritual advice for you, but yeah--- run far away before you go down with the ship.

 

Best of luck to you--- I know it must be very difficult.

 

astrid

[kchara]

When it comes to money, business, and the church, I RUN, not walk, as fast as I can in the other direction. I don't have the energy for that mess anymore. ((((hugs)))) I'm sorry you're having to deal with it. Prayers for you!

[Carol in Cal.]

Sending the letter to the district treasurer and since the church is a mission church with an LCEF mortgage, I'm sure the information will trickle over to LCEF. I also expect a phone call from the LCEF VP, who was our loan rep and counsel me a year go about how other churches in our situation handle their finances. I know the district treasurer will also share the info with the district president.

I plan to talk to any pastor before joining another church to briefly and generically explain what happened. It is not my intention to "sink" this church. I wish it hadn't come to this. These people are all older than me and should know better. I'm supposed to be able to count on my elders as examples. It's very dis-heartening.

 

I'm so sorry that you have been through this. It is not right at all.

 

One thought that I had after my last post--have you talked with the local Circuit Counsellor about this? He should be copied on your documentation as well.

 

This is not sinking the church. This is trying to save the church from sinking itself. I wish that you had been more successful in that effort, but sometimes people just will not hear the truth, no matter how clearly it is presented. It should not be that way, but unfortunately sometimes it is.

[Cheryl in NM]

...

One thought that I had after my last post--have you talked with the local Circuit Counsellor about this? He should be copied on your documentation as well...

 

 

I don't know who our circuit counsellor is. I guess this church doesn't play well with others.:glare:

 

Please pray for me, this evening. I will be meeting with the head elder to return my key to church and notify him of my intent to leave.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't know who our circuit counsellor is. I guess this church doesn't play well with others.:glare:

 

Please pray for me, this evening. I will be meeting with the head elder to return my key to church and notify him of my intent to leave.

 

Praying, Cheryl.

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't know who our circuit counsellor is. I guess this church doesn't play well with others.:glare:

 

Please pray for me, this evening. I will be meeting with the head elder to return my key to church and notify him of my intent to leave.

 

Praying...I hope that it goes well.

[Heatherwith4]

Praying for you during your meeting.

[Cheryl in NM]

I met with the head elder to turn in my key. He was very upset. He asked my permission to talk to the pastor about his advice to me. He also told me that these people have been a problem for a long time and that he'd hate to see me go. he wanted to know if there was anyway to resolve this so that I could stay. I stated everything I told you guys, how I tried to resolve the issues for the last year. And now, the advice I receive from Pastor is awful and leads me to not be able to worship under him.

 

I agreed to give him a day to talk with Pastor and pray before submitting my resignation. I did insist on giving him the key; he said he hoped he'd be giving it back to me. I felt so bad for him; I know it's only a few people ruining it for the whole church. I told him I did not want to be the cause of dissention. Things were workable before I began attending.

 

Anyway, I thought i'd update you all and see what you thought.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I met with the head elder to turn in my key. He was very upset.

 

That's actually a good sign. I hope the pastor listens to him. It may not be enough or in time for you to stay, but I think it would be good for the church.

[Cheryl in NM]

That's actually a good sign. I hope the pastor listens to him. It may not be enough or in time for you to stay, but I think it would be good for the church.

 

Thanks. I still can't think of a way that this could be resolved for me to continue as treasurer or at this church, but I will pray and allow the elder to try to resolve the issue.

[Hedgehog]

I met with the head elder to turn in my key. He was very upset. He asked my permission to talk to the pastor about his advice to me. He also told me that these people have been a problem for a long time and that he'd hate to see me go. he wanted to know if there was anyway to resolve this so that I could stay. I stated everything I told you guys, how I tried to resolve the issues for the last year. And now, the advice I receive from Pastor is awful and leads me to not be able to worship under him.

 

I agreed to give him a day to talk with Pastor and pray before submitting my resignation. I did insist on giving him the key; he said he hoped he'd be giving it back to me. I felt so bad for him; I know it's only a few people ruining it for the whole church. I told him I did not want to be the cause of dissention. Things were workable before I began attending.

 

Anyway, I thought i'd update you all and see what you thought.

 

Thanks for the update. I've been praying for you. :grouphug:

 

Just a little thought on what you posted above. You aren't the one causing dissension, the ex-treasurer is. The leaders in your church group have acknowledged that these people are a menace in the church. Things might have been workable before you attended, but that doesn't mean it was right (IRS-wise). You've completely done the right thing and I pray God will bless you for your faithfulness. I also hope you can find a good church home where you are happy and at peace.

 

Blessings,

 

Hedgehog

[Carol in Cal.]

I met with the head elder to turn in my key. He was very upset. He asked my permission to talk to the pastor about his advice to me. He also told me that these people have been a problem for a long time and that he'd hate to see me go. he wanted to know if there was anyway to resolve this so that I could stay. I stated everything I told you guys, how I tried to resolve the issues for the last year. And now, the advice I receive from Pastor is awful and leads me to not be able to worship under him.

 

I agreed to give him a day to talk with Pastor and pray before submitting my resignation. I did insist on giving him the key; he said he hoped he'd be giving it back to me. I felt so bad for him; I know it's only a few people ruining it for the whole church. I told him I did not want to be the cause of dissention. Things were workable before I began attending.

 

Anyway, I thought i'd update you all and see what you thought.

 

Cheryl, things were not workable before you started attending. They were an explosion waiting to happen. I think that it is wonderful and necessary that you not want to be the cause of dissension and we all have to take care lest we stir things up, but really, the situation was fundamentally unstable because things were not being handled properly. Period.

 

The elders should admonish the people who are holding onto bitterness and spite, gently but clearly. The pastor is undoubtedly very frustrated with the situation, but doesn't seem to be able to be fully effective here. He should be taking more of a leadership role, but it's one in which they don't seem to be trained very well. I know that that is lame, but it's what I have seen. No one should be allowing church leadership to play games of 'keep away' with formerly public information, particularly out of a middle school clique level fit of pique. If people are playing those games they must not be church leaders--they need to repent and change or step down out of conscience.

 

Having said all that, I do think that you should prayerfully wait for a bit to see what happens next. The elders might make a change. Give it a couple of weeks before you evaluate the situation.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I met with the head elder to turn in my key. He was very upset. He asked my permission to talk to the pastor about his advice to me. He also told me that these people have been a problem for a long time and that he'd hate to see me go. he wanted to know if there was anyway to resolve this so that I could stay. I stated everything I told you guys, how I tried to resolve the issues for the last year. And now, the advice I receive from Pastor is awful and leads me to not be able to worship under him.

 

I agreed to give him a day to talk with Pastor and pray before submitting my resignation. I did insist on giving him the key; he said he hoped he'd be giving it back to me. I felt so bad for him; I know it's only a few people ruining it for the whole church. I told him I did not want to be the cause of dissention. Things were workable before I began attending.

 

Anyway, I thought i'd update you all and see what you thought.

 

The reasons that you felt you should resign haven't changed just because the Head Elder is sorry you would be going. Of course he is sorry. Treasurers/bookkeepers are hard to find, especially folks who are good and conscientious about their work. But you still have the issue of believing that the church is not on board with following proper accounting practices.

 

IMHO, as long as the trouble making couple is going to be allowed to run roughshod over church practices and policies, you should be far away from a position of responsibility. If the elders will not take the steps to curb this family (removing them from positions of authority, or perhaps asking them to leave the fellowship of the church), then your staying helps to perpetuate the wrong handling of the church's funds (so far as their obligation to be accountable to Caesar in the form of the IRS).

[justamouse]

:grouphug::grouphug:

[Cheryl in NM]

Praise God!

 

I met with the pastor and head elder. The pastor misunderstood the reason for my phone call last week; he thought I was just complaining and was commiserating. There were things that I thought they knew, but they didn't; either they didn't pick up on it or I didn't tell time in the spirit of not appearing to be a trouble-maker. The pastor was very upset when he heard what I thought he told me. He made it very clear and I am a valuable part of his congregation and that he didn't understand the severity of the situation; which is what the head elder told me last night. After I told them all my reasons for wanting to leave (I was very specific) they decided to admonish the errant elder and the head elder will now actively help me get our house in order.

 

I never thought it would be resolved! I thought I was so alone. They apologized for letting things get this far gone and not checking on how I was doing. It appears that they also have a list of transgressions for this elder and then with my list added; it was just too much to ignore.

 

I also learned that I had been letting things build up over the last year and I need to talk about things when they bother me instead of letting them fester (duh! I knew that!).

 

I couldn't be more please with turn of events. Thanks to you all for all your advice and prayers!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Praise God!

 

I met with the pastor and head elder. The pastor misunderstood the reason for my phone call last week; he thought I was just complaining and was commiserating. There were things that I thought they knew, but they didn't; either they didn't pick up on it or I didn't tell time in the spirit of not appearing to be a trouble-maker. The pastor was very upset when he heard what I thought he told me. He made it very clear and I am a valuable part of his congregation and that he didn't understand the severity of the situation; which is what the head elder told me last night. After I told them all my reasons for wanting to leave (I was very specific) they decided to admonish the errant elder and the head elder will now actively help me get our house in order.

 

I never thought it would be resolved! I thought I was so alone. They apologized for letting things get this far gone and not checking on how I was doing. It appears that they also have a list of transgressions for this elder and then with my list added; it was just too much to ignore.

 

I also learned that I had been letting things build up over the last year and I need to talk about things when they bother me instead of letting them fester (duh! I knew that!).

 

I couldn't be more please with turn of events. Thanks to you all for all your advice and prayers!

 

I'm so glad. I've let things build up before and it isn't fun trying to get it sorted out.

[simka2]

Praise God!

 

I met with the pastor and head elder. The pastor misunderstood the reason for my phone call last week; he thought I was just complaining and was commiserating. There were things that I thought they knew, but they didn't; either they didn't pick up on it or I didn't tell time in the spirit of not appearing to be a trouble-maker. The pastor was very upset when he heard what I thought he told me. He made it very clear and I am a valuable part of his congregation and that he didn't understand the severity of the situation; which is what the head elder told me last night. After I told them all my reasons for wanting to leave (I was very specific) they decided to admonish the errant elder and the head elder will now actively help me get our house in order.

 

I never thought it would be resolved! I thought I was so alone. They apologized for letting things get this far gone and not checking on how I was doing. It appears that they also have a list of transgressions for this elder and then with my list added; it was just too much to ignore.

 

I also learned that I had been letting things build up over the last year and I need to talk about things when they bother me instead of letting them fester (duh! I knew that!).

 

I couldn't be more please with turn of events. Thanks to you all for all your advice and prayers!

 

Good news! and don't beat yourself up to much about letting things build. Timing is everything and the fact that seperate issues had a chance to pop up is a good thing :D

 

I would still keep an eye on things for awhile, and step forward with hope and caution. There's still the reaction of the elder and fall out to contend with. God hasn't dropped you yet and he won't in the future...whatever that looks like!

[JVA]

Praise God!

 

I met with the pastor and head elder. The pastor misunderstood the reason for my phone call last week; he thought I was just complaining and was commiserating. There were things that I thought they knew, but they didn't; either they didn't pick up on it or I didn't tell time in the spirit of not appearing to be a trouble-maker. The pastor was very upset when he heard what I thought he told me. He made it very clear and I am a valuable part of his congregation and that he didn't understand the severity of the situation; which is what the head elder told me last night. After I told them all my reasons for wanting to leave (I was very specific) they decided to admonish the errant elder and the head elder will now actively help me get our house in order.

 

I never thought it would be resolved! I thought I was so alone. They apologized for letting things get this far gone and not checking on how I was doing. It appears that they also have a list of transgressions for this elder and then with my list added; it was just too much to ignore.

 

I also learned that I had been letting things build up over the last year and I need to talk about things when they bother me instead of letting them fester (duh! I knew that!).

 

I couldn't be more please with turn of events. Thanks to you all for all your advice and prayers!

 

I'm so happy for you and impressed that the pastor will be taking corrective action. Straight and specific talk really helped! Praise the Lord!

[Tap]

Praise God!

 

I met with the pastor and head elder. The pastor misunderstood the reason for my phone call last week; he thought I was just complaining and was commiserating. There were things that I thought they knew, but they didn't; either they didn't pick up on it or I didn't tell time in the spirit of not appearing to be a trouble-maker. The pastor was very upset when he heard what I thought he told me. He made it very clear and I am a valuable part of his congregation and that he didn't understand the severity of the situation; which is what the head elder told me last night. After I told them all my reasons for wanting to leave (I was very specific) they decided to admonish the errant elder and the head elder will now actively help me get our house in order.

 

I never thought it would be resolved! I thought I was so alone. They apologized for letting things get this far gone and not checking on how I was doing. It appears that they also have a list of transgressions for this elder and then with my list added; it was just too much to ignore.

 

I also learned that I had been letting things build up over the last year and I need to talk about things when they bother me instead of letting them fester (duh! I knew that!).

 

I couldn't be more please with turn of events. Thanks to you all for all your advice and prayers!

 

I am happy to hear that your path has been cleared. With adequate support behind you, I hope the position becomes what it should be. Congratulations, on having the gumption to stand up and let the truth in the situation come to the forefront.

[Carol in Cal.]

Praise God!

 

I couldn't be more please with turn of events. Thanks to you all for all your advice and prayers!

 

Wow, I have goosebumps. This is exactly what I've been praying for. Good for you for hanging in there. Good for the leadership for trying to do the right and Godly thing. I thought it would take longer, but I hoped that it would go this way (thus the 'couple of weeks' recommendation). This is great.

[mommaduck]

So glad to hear some happy news!

[QuirkyKapers]

Wow- That is wonderful! The leadership is stepping up and taking care of a difficult situation. :grouphug:

[Hedgehog]

Great news! Thanks for the update. :grouphug: