Swimmermom....I just wanted to thank you!

[swimmermom3]

I read this somewhere before. Now, how in the world do you teach your children that effort is more important than innate ability? Especially when they've already decided (at the tender age of 7) that they are not good at math (or whatever it is that they struggle with) just because it's hard.

 

No words of wisdom on this one. I just know you need to nip that train of thought early if you can. I suppose the key comes back to us a parents that we don't ever give the impression that "hard" = "bad." Now that my kids are older, I tell them that the best things in my life are the hard things like my marriage, raising my kids, home schooling, and getting my graduate degree. I can't hardly think of any of the really good things in my life that have not required hard work and perseverance.

[Sunshine State Sue]

The "what" is the content; the fun part of homeschooling is researching curriculum, choosing books, having great discussions, etc. The "how" is the skills — teaching kids organizational & analytical skills, teaching writing, instilling a sense of self-motivation and the concept that hard work and effort are more important than innate ability, etc. That's the difficult, unfun stuff (especially when dealing with middle schoolers!), and yet teaching kids how to learn is ultimately more important than cramming them full of content.

 

Jackie

Thanks, Jackie. I understand now. I think I would rather have my fingernails pulled out than attempt to teach my ds organizational skills. I was thinking the other day that I was going to have to leave that up to ds because he understands making sense of chaos better than me. The best I can do is model.

 

I wonder if my picture is next to perfectionist in the dictionary

Ssshhhh! Mine is probably there with yours. ;)

[Corraleno]

No words of wisdom on this one. I just know you need to nip that train of thought early if you can. I suppose the key comes back to us a parents that we don't ever give the impression that "hard" = "bad." Now that my kids are older, I tell them that the best things in my life are the hard things like my marriage, raising my kids, home schooling, and getting my graduate degree. I can't hardly think of any of the really good things in my life that have not required hard work and perseverance.

I think the key, though, is that all those "hard" things are also the deepest and most meaningful things in your life. For a bright teen stuck in a PS system full of busywork and predigested factoids, where's the meaning? Where's the relevance? Telling them they need to work hard in HS, even if they find it all pointless and boring, so that they can get into college (which many kids assume will be just as pointless and boring), is a pretty abstract goal.

 

When I was 13 or 14, my goal was to be a Forest Ranger in Colorado and live in one of those smoke-spotting towers, so I could read all day and not have to talk to another human being! The only reasons I agreed to go to college were (1) to get away from my psycho family and (2) the hope that college would be different from HS, and the work would be interesting and meaningful. So I totally get the idea of kids just skating by in HS, essentially "serving time" until they can be free to get on with their lives. I was one of those kids — and yet, once I was turned loose to study things I was passionate about, I ended up spending 10 years in college & grad school.

 

IMO the way to convince kids to work harder is to make the work meaningful and relevant to them, so that the hard work pays off much sooner — a light bulb goes on in science, a work of literature deeply effects them, an intense discussion helps them connect the dots and understand something about history they never really understood before, so they're interested and engaged in the world. My DS went from being a reluctant "school learner" to a pretty avid reader & researcher once he was turned loose on topics that really interested him. DS has really forced me to question even the most fundamental assumptions about education, like the idea that young kids really need a broad, "mile-wide, inch-deep" survey of all subjects in elementary, followed by a slightly deeper "mile-wide, 2-inch-deep" survey in HS, and that specialization should be left until college. For some kids, I think that may be too late — they're already convinced that institutional education is nothing more than an endless loop of memorizing facts for the sole purpose of passing exams that measure nothing more than the memorization of facts.

 

I've had to ask myself: Why can't we go in the other direction — let kids start from their interests and add connections as they grow, ever widening the web and yet keeping it meaningful and relevant to them? Why not use their interests to teach them to think critically, to organize and analyze information and communicate their ideas and interests to others? Why not let them work hard in pursuit of the things they find important and meaningful?

 

Jackie

Edited December 22, 2010 by Corraleno
typos

[Another Lynn]

IMO the way to convince kids to work harder is to make the work meaningful and relevant to them, so that the hard work pays off much sooner — a light bulb goes on in science, a work of literature deeply effects them, an intense discussion helps them connect the dots and understand something about history they never really understood before, so they're interested and engaged in the world. My DS went from being a reluctant "school learner" to a pretty avid reader & researcher once he was turned loose on topics that really interested him. DS has really forced me to question even the most foundational assumptions about education, like the idea that young kids really need a broad, "mile-wide, inch-deep" survey of all subjects in elementary, followed by a slightly deeper "mile-wide, 2-inch-deep" survey in HS, and that specialization should be left until college. For some kids, I think that may be too late — they're already convinced that institutional education is nothing more than an endless loop of memorizing facts for sole the purpose of passing exams that measure nothing more than the memorization of facts.

 

 

 

:iagree: Well said.

[PenKase]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for this AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME thread!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'll print it all out and read it every night before bed!!!

[Tammyla]

Excellent discussion, and I really enjoyed this article.

 

Raising Smart Kids :)

[elegantlion]

No words of wisdom on this one. I just know you need to nip that train of thought early if you can. I suppose the key comes back to us a parents that we don't ever give the impression that "hard" = "bad." Now that my kids are older, I tell them that the best things in my life are the hard things like my marriage, raising my kids, home schooling, and getting my graduate degree. I can't hardly think of any of the really good things in my life that have not required hard work and perseverance.

 

 

My dh and I live fairly transparent lives in front of ds. He's seen our struggles, he knows our fears. My dh is a carpenter, he works physically hard. But he didn't use foresight 30 years ago. Being a 50 year old carpenter hurts, literally. We talk about long term decisions with ds. We use what we perceive as our own failures as talking points. I think it's very important that your dc know what transpires to get food on the table and a roof over their head. I am often surprised how many children really don't know what their working parent/s do for a living. I'm not talking seven year olds, but teenagers.

 

For us, sometimes in school, I can see when something is difficult or if he's having one of brain lapse moments. A couple of weeks ago we spent one full hour translating six short sentences in Latin. I was about to pull my hair out. But it was hard for him, we persevered through it. There have also been plenty of days we've closed the math book in the middle of a lesson without regret.

 

I also agree about their interests. After we finished the Latin lesson we had a wonderful hour long discussion about film making. It morphed into a discussion of mythology, legend, directing, remaking movies, and books made into movies. Totally spontaneous, totally awesome.

 

I don't know what that teaches ds about effort, but I guarantee he'll remember that film conversation. I don't know about the Latin sentences.

[Debbie in OR]

Reading through all these posts reminded me of something I read in one of the books by Zaccaro...I think it was The Ten Things All Future Mathematicians and Scientists Must Know (But are Rarely Taught) .

 

Anyhow, he had a chapter on frustration and mistakes and why they are so important. I went and dug out the excerpt, which was about a study done on 500 mid-level executives at Illinois Bell Telephone by Salvatore Maddi on the changes that occurred in the lives of some executives after their jobs were deregulated.

 

What they found was that "close to 2/3 of the executives had a difficult time dealing with the changes that the deregulation brought....The remaining executives not only adapted well to the changes, but many thrived under the same adverse conditions that caused the other 2/3 to fall apart".

 

When he probed into this, he found that "those executives who thrived during the stressful times had life experiences that were similar. All experienced challenge and frustration as children due to sickness, constant moving, death of someone close to them, or other tough conditions. Those executives who didn't fare well, typpically had childhoods that were fairly stress-free....they had no built-in coping mechanisms to help them respond in positive ways".

 

I know that the stresses in our math lessons are not the same as the death of someone close, but I can see that spending an hour translating 6 sentences in Latin or tolerating frustration in a math lesson, rather than rescuing them, can be seen as purposeful and beneficial.

[swimmermom3]

Reading through all these posts reminded me of something I read in one of the books by Zaccaro...I think it was The Ten Things All Future Mathematicians and Scientists Must Know (But are Rarely Taught) .

 

Anyhow, he had a chapter on frustration and mistakes and why they are so important. I went and dug out the excerpt, which was about a study done on 500 mid-level executives at Illinois Bell Telephone by Salvatore Maddi on the changes that occurred in the lives of some executives after their jobs were deregulated.

 

What they found was that "close to 2/3 of the executives had a difficult time dealing with the changes that the deregulation brought....The remaining executives not only adapted well to the changes, but many thrived under the same adverse conditions that caused the other 2/3 to fall apart".

 

When he probed into this, he found that "those executives who thrived during the stressful times had life experiences that were similar. All experienced challenge and frustration as children due to sickness, constant moving, death of someone close to them, or other tough conditions. Those executives who didn't fare well, typpically had childhoods that were fairly stress-free....they had no built-in coping mechanisms to help them respond in positive ways".

 

I know that the stresses in our math lessons are not the same as the death of someone close, but I can see that spending an hour translating 6 sentences in Latin or tolerating frustration in a math lesson, rather than rescuing them, can be seen as purposeful and beneficial.

 

Debbie, thank you for this very thoughtful post. "Tolerating frustration." I added that to my master list of skills for my children and Zaccaro's book to my wish list. One of my kids' swim coaches was in the habit of sharing the most inspiring quotes in the team newsletter. This one stayed on our refrigerator for a long time. My kids were fascinated by it.

 

“I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.â€

 

Michael Jordan

 

 

 

"Failure is a detour: not a dead-end street." -Zig Ziglar

 

Here is a fun website if you too are inclined to put quotes on your refrigerator.

 

The question of whether we have made childhood too easy therefore making adulthood too difficult for our children is another question that keeps me up at night.

 

 

 

 

[swimmermom3]

I think the key, though, is that all those "hard" things are also the deepest and most meaningful things in your life. For a bright teen stuck in a PS system full of busywork and predigested factoids, where's the meaning? Where's the relevance? Telling them they need to work hard in HS, even if they find it all pointless and boring, so that they can get into college (which many kids assume will be just as pointless and boring), is a pretty abstract goal.

 

You are right; they are the deepest and most meaningful things in my life. You know too that my dd completely agrees with your description of high school. She is the student who will bring moral or political debates that occurred in the classrooms to the dinner table for discussion and yet finds high school overall to be meaningless. I have discovered in having her home that it is not the learning that is objectionable but the process through which it is accomplished in ps. If I create meaningful assignments where the goal to be accomplished is clear, I find that I can push her and push hard. Engagement is vital.

When I was 13 or 14, my goal was to be a Forest Ranger in Colorado and live in one of those smoke-spotting towers, so I could read all day and not have to talk to another human being! The only reasons I agreed to go to college were (1) to get away from my psycho family and (2) the hope that college would be different from HS, and the work would be interesting and meaningful. So I totally get the idea of kids just skating by in HS, essentially "serving time" until they can be free to get on with their lives. I was one of those kids — and yet, once I was turned loose to study things I was passionate about, I ended up spending 10 years in college & grad school.

 

:lol: I've been in one of those towers. My dh turned to the kids and said we had to leave because he was sure that it was my idea of heaven on earth and that I was wondering if 40+ yo housewives could apply. Did you know that you can vacation in them now? Anyway, my reasons for going to college were similar to yours. My mother wasn't psycho but definitely a perfectionist. Appearance is everything. I took every class in high school that I should take. I wouldn't have taken a personally interesting elective to save my life unless it served an academic advantage. Unfortunately, I followed that same formula for college. Bad mistake. It wasn't until I was a junior when I could take classes in my major that things turned around for me. As a Journalism major the door is wide open on the types of courses one can take. Since by that time, I was footing the bill, there was a certain level of satisfaction in sending home grades that contained classes like "American Radicalism," "Nihilism and Parricide," and "Women and History."

 

IMO the way to convince kids to work harder is to make the work meaningful and relevant to them, so that the hard work pays off much sooner — a light bulb goes on in science, a work of literature deeply effects them, an intense discussion helps them connect the dots and understand something about history they never really understood before, so they're interested and engaged in the world. My DS went from being a reluctant "school learner" to a pretty avid reader & researcher once he was turned loose on topics that really interested him. DS has really forced me to question even the most foundational assumptions about education, like the idea that young kids really need a broad, "mile-wide, inch-deep" survey of all subjects in elementary, followed by a slightly deeper "mile-wide, 2-inch-deep" survey in HS, and that specialization should be left until college. For some kids, I think that may be too late — they're already convinced that institutional education is nothing more than an endless loop of memorizing facts for sole the purpose of passing exams that measure nothing more than the memorization of facts.

 

One afternoon recently Swimmer Dude and dd had a lively conversation about Socrates as the "corrupter of youth." Dude left the room and my dd exploded. She's usually very easy going so it caught me by surprise. "Why don't they teach this stuff in school?" "The last time we covered anything in ancient history was 6th grade and medieval history in 7th?" I have missed all these connections between lit and history and science, time periods." "Do they (meaning teachers and parents)think we are too stupid to get it?" "Why isn't there a corresponding literature class to go with AP European History?" So many questions and so few answers.

I've had to ask myself: Why can't we go in the other direction — let kids start from their interests and add connections as they grow, ever widening the web and yet keeping it meaningful and relevant to them? Why not use their interests to teach them to think critically, to organize and analyze information and communicate their ideas and interests to others? Why not let them work hard in pursuit of the things they find important and meaningful?

 

Jackie

 

This part in bold! Nan in Mass was the first person I ever heard talk about utilizing one subject to teach critical thinking. This is the best piece of advice I have put to work in our home school. It is efficient and effective. It is even better if the discipline is one that interests both you and your students.

[Debbie in OR]

“I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.â€

 

Michael Jordan

 

Love this! I may paint that somewhere permanent...

 

The question of whether we have made childhood too easy therefore making adulthood too difficult for our children is another question that keeps me up at night.

 

Ugh. Me, too.

[Debbie in OR]

I think the key, though, is that all those "hard" things are also the deepest and most meaningful things in your life. For a bright teen stuck in a PS system full of busywork and predigested factoids, where's the meaning? Where's the relevance? Telling them they need to work hard in HS, even if they find it all pointless and boring, so that they can get into college (which many kids assume will be just as pointless and boring), is a pretty abstract goal.

 

When I was 13 or 14, my goal was to be a Forest Ranger in Colorado and live in one of those smoke-spotting towers, so I could read all day and not have to talk to another human being! The only reasons I agreed to go to college were (1) to get away from my psycho family and (2) the hope that college would be different from HS, and the work would be interesting and meaningful. So I totally get the idea of kids just skating by in HS, essentially "serving time" until they can be free to get on with their lives. I was one of those kids — and yet, once I was turned loose to study things I was passionate about, I ended up spending 10 years in college & grad school.

 

IMO the way to convince kids to work harder is to make the work meaningful and relevant to them, so that the hard work pays off much sooner — a light bulb goes on in science, a work of literature deeply effects them, an intense discussion helps them connect the dots and understand something about history they never really understood before, so they're interested and engaged in the world. My DS went from being a reluctant "school learner" to a pretty avid reader & researcher once he was turned loose on topics that really interested him. DS has really forced me to question even the most fundamental assumptions about education, like the idea that young kids really need a broad, "mile-wide, inch-deep" survey of all subjects in elementary, followed by a slightly deeper "mile-wide, 2-inch-deep" survey in HS, and that specialization should be left until college. For some kids, I think that may be too late — they're already convinced that institutional education is nothing more than an endless loop of memorizing facts for the sole purpose of passing exams that measure nothing more than the memorization of facts.

 

I've had to ask myself: Why can't we go in the other direction — let kids start from their interests and add connections as they grow, ever widening the web and yet keeping it meaningful and relevant to them? Why not use their interests to teach them to think critically, to organize and analyze information and communicate their ideas and interests to others? Why not let them work hard in pursuit of the things they find important and meaningful?

 

Jackie

 

Thank you for posting that...so much to think about. But it is stirring something in my homeschool soul...

[johnandtinagilbert]

Thank you all, but I would be remiss in not confessing that I find it easier to write the words than to put the concepts into practice. New curriculum, extensive research, and elaborate planning are to me what shiny baubles are to many women. " Oh look!" "I must have it." "It costs how much?" Later, "Too bad it doesn't go with my children." :tongue_smilie:

 

The "what" is "glamorous; the "how" is hard work. Teaching skills to hormonal half-wits requires more consistency, patience, and self-discipline than I sometimes possess.

:lol::lol::lol:

This entire thread has been food for my soul. Definitely a keeper. What perfect timing. As I move forward into next semester and need some encouragement to keep the ball rolling, but allowing it to take as many turns as necessary to make the journey enjoyable and applicable. My new siggy motto says it all: Encouraging passion and papers. I want them to be passionate, but work hard and still produce something worthwhile; something they can be proud of; something as evidence for their journey.

 

Again, wonderful thread.

[Capt_Uhura]

The question of whether we have made childhood too easy therefore making adulthood too difficult for our children is another question that keeps me up at night.

 

Ah yes, you put it very succinctly. One of the speakers in 2 Million Minutes DVD said something very similar about American kids. For many, life is easy and it breeds under-achievement. Many kids do not have the motivation (internal or external) to go that extra-mile, put forth the effort when it gets tough. I think it goes back to what Jackie said about making school meaningful and relevant to them.

[DianeJM]

Now, how in the world do you teach your children that effort is more important than innate ability? Especially when they've already decided (at the tender age of 7) that they are not good at math (or whatever it is that they struggle with) just because it's hard.

 

That's my struggle. I don't know how. I was never taught. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I learned how to put the effort in all by myself; I don't know how to give that to my ds. The only way I can accomplish that, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, is to dog it out with him every day, do it with him, until he starts to get the picture. Model, model, model. And talk about why it's so important. I think a lot of that rests on me.

 

I am in the same boat with others here in terms of realizing what I haven't accomplished with this ds in particular, so now it's time to bite the bullet and get going. This is where I struggle, because my own education was less than average at best. I was not taught to think, so there's one giant handicap right there, then on top of that, my own brain has deficiencies as well. So, there's a double drawback. Because of my handicaps, I have often wondered if I would be doing my kids a disservice by home schooling them. But I still feel hs is best, especially for this ds. So, I'm going to just dog it out, do the work, etc. with him. I think that's the way he will learn those skills from me. Fighting back all the way, most likely. He has gotten lazy. As he was coming up in the younger years, I had a lot of life stuff going on with parents sick and dying, etc., those were hard times for me, I had little to no emotional room for school, so there were many days there was no school, and many other days there was very little school, so he got used to that. This year, I'm back to my usual low energy self (argh), and he's still on the speedy school track. Boy, I have got some work to do.

 

Thanks for this thread, I printed the article, and I will probably buy the book. I've always said I'd most likely be learning more than my kids with homeschool. That is so true, but what I didn't know was that it wasn't all going to be content. Glad to know there are a bunch of us in the same boat. Let's keep on encouraging one another.

 

Blessings to everyone,

[DianeJM]

The question of whether we have made childhood too easy therefore making adulthood too difficult for our children is another question that keeps me up at night.

 

 

 

There, you said it more succinctly. That's it.

[mcconnellboys]

This is why I think tracking in schools is so very damaging to our children. And schools do this even when they claim they don't.... Once a kid gets "labeled", he can't get away from it....

[Old Dominion Heather]

 

For me, the number one skill to establish and hone is that of hard work and effort. How to go back and teach this later in my kids' lives rather than earlier is the challenge that keeps me awake at night.

 

Yes, yes, yes. This is why I switched my oldest to Singapore and make him do all the extras. He needed to learn how to do a math problem when he didn't "just know" the answer. It is also why I had him play football. He needed to learn how to lose.

[Allearia]

Ever since I read one of the Dweck articles (not sure which one, a couple of years ago) I have parented differently, always trying to praise for effort and working hard. When my kids do something great, I emphasize how hard they worked to get to the point of being able to do that.

 

Another point in the Mastery book is that learning can actually change physical structures in the brain. I think at some point in the book they talk about how when they taught kids how this happens and that it was possible they made big improvements. Instead of just thinking they weren't good at math, for example, they learned that with effort they would be able to learn it and build new connections in their brain. I always tell my boys when they are doing something especially difficult that it is building up their brain and will pay off later.

 

Dweck came out with a computer program, Brainology, that I am hoping to buy soon with this same theme. http://www.brainology.us/

[HappyGrace]

Ever since I read one of the Dweck articles (not sure which one, a couple of years ago) I have parented differently, always trying to praise for effort and working hard. When my kids do something great, I emphasize how hard they worked to get to the point of being able to do that.

 

 

Alfie Kohn has a book "Punished by Rewards" that I read when dd was a toddler that helped me to parent differently-speaks very much to the above quote.

[swimmermom3]

Ever since I read one of the Dweck articles (not sure which one, a couple of years ago) I have parented differently, always trying to praise for effort and working hard. When my kids do something great, I emphasize how hard they worked to get to the point of being able to do that.

 

Another point in the Mastery book is that learning can actually change physical structures in the brain. I think at some point in the book they talk about how when they taught kids how this happens and that it was possible they made big improvements. Instead of just thinking they weren't good at math, for example, they learned that with effort they would be able to learn it and build new connections in their brain. I always tell my boys when they are doing something especially difficult that it is building up their brain and will pay off later.

 

Dweck came out with a computer program, Brainology, that I am hoping to buy soon with this same theme. http://www.brainology.us/

 

Alfie Kohn has a book "Punished by Rewards" that I read when dd was a toddler that helped me to parent differently-speaks very much to the above quote.

 

Thank you both for sharing these resources. Do you see a difference in how your kids respond to life versus how some of us have described our own kids? Were you raised with an emphasis on the value of work or did you have to change your way of interacting with your children from the way you were raised? Ugh! Need coffee!:tongue_smilie:

[HappyGrace]

Almost running out for Christmas Eve party but.....

 

 

I am the aforementioned perfectionist! I am paralyzed by new or hard things, afraid to "fail". My parents were also perfectionists, wondering "why" when I would bring home less than an A+, very focused on how things "look" to others, etc.

 

I am so glad I read the Alfie Kohn book when dd was young. I truly have followed the rule of not praising all the time, for teeny tiny things, AND not praising the outcome, but more the effort and the willing heart to try hard things. I do think I see a difference in my children from it. They both naturally tend toward perfectionism (have since they were tiny) but I think that the things I learned in Kohn's book have really tempered it.

 

I WISH I had read Mindset sooner too!

 

All that being said, I do worry that my dc's life is generally kind of "easy" and it has been on my mind to find ways to really challenge them so they can stretch. I now look for opportunities (academic, social, etc.) for them where success is not guaranteed, and things are not easy, which I realize now is a huge part of growth as a person.

 

Dd11 was extremely ill (and for many months almost bedridden and in severe pain) with Lyme disease all last year, and though of course as a mom I did NOT want her (or us) to have to go through it, I must say it is the biggest thing in her life so far that has contributed to personal and spiritual growth.

 

Of course I hope for more subtle opportunities to arise than that from now on-lol!

 

(I know an illness is different from the "effort" and value of work and so on that we've been discussing, but generally speaking, going through "hard things" is the crucible in which growth happens. And the illness made me realize, wow, that was hard for her, I wish I could have protected her from it, BUT then she would not have grown from it like she ended up doing. It was a light bulb time for me to understand protecting them from hard things isn't necessarily a favor. Now I make a point of not protecting as much as I did before, and I even seek out things that may be "harder" and require more effort-like the science fair we just signed up for that will stretch her a bit beyond her comfort zone.)

Edited December 25, 2010 by HappyGrace

[Sebastian (a lady)]

To give you all something else to consider, there is a very good article by Carol S. Dweck, Ph.D in Scientific American Mind's December 2007 issue on "The Secret to Raising Smart Kids." Unfortunately, they show you only enough of the article to pique your interest but the premise is that a" focus on effort-not intelligence or ability- is key to success in school and in life." The findings are supposedly based on 3 decades of research. I am trying to figure out how to get a full copy of this article on here because I am dying to discuss it.

 

This is the part of the article that really had me considering how I would do things differently:

 

"In fact, however, more than 30 years of scientific investigation suggests that an overemphasis on intellect or talent leaves people vulnerable to failure, fearful of challenges and unwilling to remedy their shortcomings.

...who coast through the early grades under the dangerous notion that no-effort academic achievement defines them as smart or gifted. Such children hold an implicit belief that intelligence is innate and fixed, making striving to learn seem far less important than being (or looking) smart."

 

For me, the number one skill to establish and hone is that of hard work and effort. How to go back and teach this later in my kids' lives rather than earlier is the challenge that keeps me awake at night.

 

I remember reading about this study when it came out a few years ago (you might try looking for articles about it in NY Times). It matches up well with my experience attending a service academy and working as an admissions liaison. There are always folks who are simply brilliant. But we also keep an eye out for the student who has learned how to study, how to work hard, how to spend his time on the team bus reviewing for a test rather than just listening to headphones (secure in the knowledge that they'll pass the test no matter what). Because the reality is that the academies (and military service) is going to throw more at them than they can handle and they will need these skills to get through it.

 

Often the kids who were tops without trying can't survive the experience of failing over and over during plebe year and leave to attend somewhere else. Being a failure when you've always suceeded with little effort is a hard ego blow to take at 18.

[kpnick in nc]

I was a diligent student, but it didn't really matter if I worked hard or winged it - it was always enough to do pretty well.... even better than pretty well. Maybe it's because standards over the years have been lowered?

I definitely *get* that I *want* more results with less effort in all areas of my life - isn't that the benefit of being an adult, LOL? I think the change starts with *me.* ugh!

 

The feeling of impostership still haunts me too. I have had recurring dreams in which I had to retake my PhD exams, but I had to do it by cooking a multi-course dinner for my professors. The dream goes into this in detail, and then it ends when one of them takes me into the hall and says kindly but firmly, "I'm so sorry, but you flunked dessert."

 

How can I expect my kids not to grumble about math when I am grumbling about cooking dinner? It is not only kids that are hard to retrain.:tongue_smilie:

 

 

This thread confirms why I love this forum - so much has resonated with me! As a big-time procrastinator who coasted through school, I reached the limit of my skills in grad school. I made it through, but it is difficult to look back at my work with satisfaction. It was just enough to get through - I was married and had decided that staying at home was my calling, so my motivation was nil. Looking back, if I had developed those persevering and coping skills and sought more guidance, I would have used that time much more wisely. I'm hoping to provide these benefits to my own dc!

[TKDmom]

This thread confirms why I love this forum - so much has resonated with me! As a big-time procrastinator who coasted through school, I reached the limit of my skills in grad school. I made it through, but it is difficult to look back at my work with satisfaction. It was just enough to get through - I was married and had decided that staying at home was my calling, so my motivation was nil. Looking back, if I had developed those persevering and coping skills and sought more guidance, I would have used that time much more wisely. I'm hoping to provide these benefits to my own dc!

 

:iagree: This is totally me, too. I dropped out of grad school, b/c I just wasn't willing to put in the work of it after dd was born. I really have mixed feelings about doing that. I know that taking care of her was important, but I also know that I would have stuck with grad school if I wasn't already feeling like a failure with my lab work.