How do you view prayer? CC and probably rambly and long.

[Ginevra]

I've been hung up on prayer for 7 years, since my daughter died at birth. I've mostly been ignoring this issue, but my mom was saying some things recently that stirred it up for me again and I want to hear what other's think.

 

First, the thing my mother said. My mom considers herself a major "prayer warrior" and is big on prayer chains and the like. She was just telling me about a lady who is now pregnant after 8 years of unsuccessfully trying to conceive. Mom told the lady, "Well, I knew you'd get pg because I've been praying for you and whenever I pray for someone to get pg, they always do!" This remark bugs me and hurts me simultaneously on many levels. A - she sounds like she's taking credit for having some special prayer ability that gets the desired result; B - because my prayed-over daughter died, this hits me in some sort of "You must be a defective pray-er" way. :( To further complicate things, I have wanted at least one more kid for the past 6 years, but I could never work through the mental gymnastics of praying for a baby when I prayed for a baby and got a dead baby, so why should praying for a baby again bring any good result, and furthermore if I'm not getting pregnant, maybe that is for the best because I would not get a good result....and so on. Now, the window is just about closed and I cannot figure out if I should just accept that this is my lot, focus on my "other things" and put having another kid out of my mind completely, prayer or no prayer. Or is that like saying I don't trust that God could give me another child and I just want to keep my life orderly and sensible? :confused:

 

I don't understand prayer. How do you get over it when God shuts down what you've prayed for for so long? At what point do you take no baby as God saying "no" for good? I really don't want to keep going through the mental acrobatics for one more month - wanting another baby, worrying that I am not a candidate for another baby, wondering if I could be pg, feeling both crushed and relieved when I turn out not to be, thinking I need to give up the desire completely and then thinking that's communicating to God that I can only have another baby on my terms and since my terms are coming toward the end, I'm saying (in effect) that I don't want God to lead my life in this area.

 

And: this is an important piece of the info, here: Dh does not want a baby. He's 8 years older than I am, and I'm old. But - sometimes, he cooperates with the possibility of having another; other times, not. That adds to my whole confusion over what God wants or doesn't want. In the "moment", when dh is sometimes cooperating with the possibility, I think God is leading him to that. But, ultimately, it has not had any resulting pg. So if God was leading him, what was the point? SWIM? I'm just getting sick of wanting what I can't have, especially with little glimmers that I could have another baby. I just don't know where God's will, or the Holy Spirit's leading meshes with what DH chooses to do, what I choose to do, and what is the healthiest thing for me to do.

 

If you've read through all this and have some grasp on my confusion, thanks for bearing with me and thanks if you can offer any wise words!

[MamaAkins]

First of all, :grouphug: for you. I can "hear" the sadness over the loss of your baby girl in the words you type. I hope that you are able to find peace and healing.

 

My feeling on prayer is that just because you pray for it doesn't mean that God is going to fulfill said prayer. I believe that He *can* fulfill our desires, but only if they fit into His master plan. I liken it to a child who "wants" candy for each meal of the day. Although we, as parents, want to make our children happy and give them their hearts' desires, we also know that candy is not good for them for every meal and that is our duty as the parent to lead them to healthier choices.

 

Sometimes when it seems that God is not answering our prayers, it might be time to think about what lessons are we supposed to learn in this situation. Is there something good that is supposed to come out of the unanswered prayers?

In my opinion, prayers should not be "God, please give me xyz" or "Help me xyz", but instead should be an open question---"God, what do you desire for me in this situation?" or "God, if it is Your will, please help me xyz."

 

I agree with you, your mil's comments would bother me. Saying that something happened because she prayed for it takes the power away from God and gives her the recognition for it. I hope you can see that prayer is much deeper than that and is about your relationship with Christ.

 

I will be praying for you to find peace, healing and spiritual fulfillment and that God will make it clear to you what His plan is for your family.

[Peela]

Wouldnt God know your heart anyway, under all the confusion? Do you feel that the death of your baby was some perosnal failure on your part, as if you deserved it, and you don't deserve another chance? It feels like more a crisis of your relationship to God because you don't know why you received a dead baby in answer to your prayer. That is very deep trauma in your heart....I would strongly suggest some more therapy or help with the whole issue.

[Mimm]

I'm so sorry about your daughter. :(

 

But I don't understand people saying that because you pray for something, it happens. How do you know it wouldn't have gone that way anyway? It seems like any time there's a good outcome in a situation, people say, "Oh, it's because we prayed." And then when there's a bad outcome, "God must have a reason." What's the point of praying if it doesn't make a difference? If God can still just "have reasons" for saying no?

[Ginevra]

I believe that He *can* fulfill our desires, but only if they fit into His master plan.

 

But how do you know what that would be? This is where it gets so baffling to me. Before my daughter's conception, I was praying that, if it were God's will, we would have another child, and then I prayed for every aspect of that future child's life. Conceiving her seemed like confirmation that God was saying "yes"; it was not an easy-to-come-by conception. But it was ultimately all for nothing. Why would God say "yes" and then "no"? What is more senseless than a baby dying in labor?

 

So, the way it get all bungled up in my head is this: Was God leading me to have another child, as I was always praying in just that way: "If it's Your will, bring another child into our lives..."? Or was I just kidding myself all along? Maybe it has nothing to do with God. If it was God's will for me to conceive, what was the point if I end up with three living kids and one deceased kid anyway? Does God now want me to continue to pray for/hope for another child, or should I take it that not conceiving at this point must mean NO? Or is deciding that we are done, we're too old, it's too far gone, I don't want this question hanging over my head any longer telling God He missed his chance and now I don't care if He would give me another child at this point I no longer want one (although I do).

[Ginevra]

 

Do you feel that the death of your baby was some perosnal failure on your part, as if you deserved it, and you don't deserve another chance? It feels like more a crisis of your relationship to God

No, I don't feel that way, I just can't understand how what God wants fits into the picture vs. what we choose to do. It is a crisis of my relationship to God, though. I went apostate for 2 or 3 years because it doesn't make sense to me.

[TXMomof4]

I have read none of the other replies, but this is something I've struggled with a LOT. I recently heard a talk that really, really helped put it in perspective. Not really an easy perspective, but one that makes more sense than the idea that prayer is meaningless.

 

We know Jesus is at God's right hand and we know that in Hebrews it says he LIVES to intercede on our behalf.

Heb 7

25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

 

The language used is exactly that emphasis - not "it's his job now to intercede for us," but he LIVES to intercede for us. Also, the word save used there isn't just to keep us from danger. It also is translated to 'heal completely', or to make whole.

 

Sometimes, things don't go the way we've planned. This speaker used the example of Jesus in the Garden, praying for this cup to pass from him. It didn't. He HAD to face that cup in order for God to complete his good work through him. Now - our cups don't even begin to compare, but if God has put a cup in front of us that is difficult to bear, there is a reason for it. A purpose will be reached if we suffer this and come through on the other side. It may not be something we would have thought necessary, but God knows it is.

 

That makes sense to me, but it is still hard. That means that God might allow the death of a child. That is a very hard pill to swallow. I have two friends who have lost children and it kills me to think that God allowed that to happen. BUT, the children are not suffering. They are with God. The parents do suffer, but I have seen miracles worked through their lives as a result of the strength and growth they have had and their impact on others. There are things that would NEVER have happened if their child was with them right now.

 

Your mom is unkind and thoughtless with her comments. I do think prayer can have an effect on a situation - if it is in keeping with God's plan. Claiming bragging rights over what my "prayer" has accomplished is ridiculous. I think the key for me is to remain humble and know that my ways are not necessarily God's ways.

[Kathleen in VA]

But how do you know what that would be? This is where it gets so baffling to me. Before my daughter's conception, I was praying that, if it were God's will, we would have another child, and then I prayed for every aspect of that future child's life. Conceiving her seemed like confirmation that God was saying "yes"; it was not an easy-to-come-by conception. But it was ultimately all for nothing. Why would God say "yes" and then "no"? What is more senseless than a baby dying in labor?

 

So, the way it get all bungled up in my head is this: Was God leading me to have another child, as I was always praying in just that way: "If it's Your will, bring another child into our lives..."? Or was I just kidding myself all along? Maybe it has nothing to do with God. If it was God's will for me to conceive, what was the point if I end up with three living kids and one deceased kid anyway? Does God now want me to continue to pray for/hope for another child, or should I take it that not conceiving at this point must mean NO? Or is deciding that we are done, we're too old, it's too far gone, I don't want this question hanging over my head any longer telling God He missed his chance and now I don't care if He would give me another child at this point I no longer want one (although I do).

 

First of all, please know that that a baby dying in labor is not senseless. We may not ever understand it fully this side of heaven, but God had a reason for it and that means it was not senseless. Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on your own understanding." As finite humans, we are very limited in our understanding of all the whys of life. Job lost all of his children in one day and was able to say, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord" and "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him."

 

I went through a similar crisis when a very good friend of mine died of a brain tumor at age 26. He had been married for a little over a year, had become a dad and then 3 months later died of cancer. Everyone I know was praying for him. His dad is one of the organizers of the presidential prayer breakfast each year and was instrumental in leading Chuck Colson to the Lord - there were thousands of people praying for this young man's healing. But he died. I had all the questions you are having.

 

What I eventually came to realize is that He is God and I am not. Basically, that just means that He is the sovereign ruler of the universe, He created it, He is intimately involved with it, He is all-wise, all-knowing, all-loving. He is good. If I cannot comprehend how my suffering fits into those truths, that does not mean those are no longer truths - it means I am a finite human who only has a fraction of the information about whatever I am suffering. I need to bow my knee to God and thank Him and praise Him regardless of what I don't understand.

 

We are on this earth to bring glory to God. He gets the most glory when we praise Him during our most difficult times. It is easy to praise Him when everything is going our way. When we can acknowledge and affirm that God is a good, wise, loving God even when our hearts are broken and we cannot understand his ways, He gets the most glory.

 

Your little one is in heaven with Jesus. You will see her when you pass from this life to the next. This temporal existence on earth is very short - no matter how long we live - it is a flash of time compared to eternity. God is more concerned with your eternal well-being than He is with your temporary life here on earth. That means that much of what happens here is designed to prepare us for eternity and we will more than likely not understand it fully.

 

Prayer is not a magic talisman. Your mother's approach to prayer, imo, seems superstitious to me, as if she thinks she has the power within herself to change the outcome of events here on earth. She is wrong. Prayer is not a magic wand any more than rubbing a rabbit's foot is or tossing salt over your shoulder is.

 

I think God is trying to help you to see that you need to bow to His will. Jesus prayed, "Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done," when he was in the Garden of Gesthemane. This is where we all need to get in one way another. We need to stop demanding to know why and to simply trust that even when we do not understand Him, we trust Him anyway.

 

I've found the words to this hymn to be especially comforting when I cannot understand God; when I am hurting and cannot see the why:

 

Be Still My Soul

 

Be still my soul, the Lord is on thy side.

Bear patiently the cross of grief or pain.

Leave to thy God to order and provide.

In every change He faithful will remain.

Be still my soul, thy best, thy heavenly Friend,

through thorny ways leads to a joyful end.

 

We are only here for a short time. We are here to glorify God in all we do and say. This world is full of sorrow and pain (remember we live in a fallen world). Cast your burden upon the Lord. He cares for you. Also, remember that He is infinite. He has no limits or restraints. He is able to give Himself fully to you as if you were the only person on the planet. Pour your grieving heart out to Him, accept His will even though you do not understand it.

 

Satan wants to discourage and destroy you. He wants you to question God's goodness and love. Defy him and affirm in your mind that although you cannot understand why you are suffering, you trust that God is more wise than you are and that He is working all things for your good. (Romans 8:28-29) When the Bible says something is for our good, that does not necessarily mean it is what we would have chosen. It means that it is conforming us to the image of Christ because that is ultimately what is best for us. Christ suffered and so will we if we are His.

 

I will praying for you.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Georgiana Daniels]

Anything I say sounds so trite compared to what you're walking through. There simply aren't words. I've struggled with your exact question regarding prayer--only I didn't endure anything as painful as you have to make me wonder.

 

First, continue to ask God about prayer and seek answers--He loves when His children dig deeper!

 

Second, have grace for Mom who said that whenever she prays things happen. Hopefully she didn't mean it the way it came off and would be mortified to learn how it affected you. It's not easy when someone close to us says something so deeply hurtful, but it happens.

 

Third, I believe prayer does change things--namely us! Prayer brings us into alignment with the Lord's perfect plan. If you and your husband are not in agreement and there is still confusion, I don't believe that's from God. Pray, pray, pray until you have peace and direction. Ask for wisdom, which God gives generously, then be attentive to His still small voice.

 

A while back I read a book on prayer, and the biggest thing I gleaned was that we can pray with our Bible open, reading and seeking until the Holy Spirit impresses His word upon you. Read until you get the Rhema (living) word!

 

What happened to your family was absolutely tragic, but God wants to be Lord of the situation. I believe He wants you to run to The One--the only One--who can identify with your suffering.

 

While prayer and faith change things, we'll never get everything we want. Neither did Jesus.

 

Praying that God gives you great Peace the grows in your heart until you know that you know that you know He has heard you and you have direction. And that you will find answers that lead you closer to His heart.

[Catwoman]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Danielle, I am so sorry you're going through this. I can sense so much grief and confusion, and your mom's comments must have really hurt you, too.

 

I don't have any advice for you, but I'll send you some :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Cat

[lovemywhirlygirls]

This is such an important subject. My finite mind struggles (obviously) with understanding an infinite God and His will. My pastor says (and I don't know if it's original to him or not) "If you can't follow/understand God's hand, trust His heart." Basically, if you don't understand why things are one way and not another, lean on what you know about WHO God is. Study His character and who He says He is. It won't make the pain of the loss of you precious child any less painful....but if you seek to know Him intimately (maybe even more intimately--I always need that) it will become easier to trust Him, to submit to His will even if it is gut-wrenching to do so and doesn't make sense from a human standpoint.

 

My prayers are often "God, I have no idea what it is you are doing or why you are doing it....but I want desperately to trust you and believe that you want my highest good. Help me believe and to trust." Being this honest, I believe, helps grow the intimacy between God and me. What it does is to keep my heart turned towards the Lord and tethered to Him.

 

One more thing and then I've got to run to IEW. My pastor's wife, when teaching at a women's retreat on the subject of fear, gave a visual for what God's love for us might look like. Imagine the arm to arm hold of a trapeze artist. It's not hand to hand, but wrist locked to wrist. My pastor's wife imagines God's love for us like this hold. Sometimes we are in a good place and feel full of faith and belief and we hold as strongly as God does. Sometimes, like perhaps in your case, our faith takes deep hits from things that happen or don't happen and our faith weakens and so does our grip. The really cool thing is that when we are tired, or weak, or willfully disobedient and we let go, God still has us firmly in His grip. He doesn't let go.

 

My heart breaks for you. Your pain is deep. I will pray that the Lord will give you the courage to keep turning around and facing Him even in the midst of pain and doubt and anger and confusion.

 

:grouphug:

[OregonNative]

ITA with what the women have said here about trusting God's plan. But I know it's easier said than done.

 

I am sending you a huge hug and am so sorry you are going thru this. :grouphug:

 

(I feel as you do over many areas of my life and have for several years. I get angry at God often. I also go back and forth with the "baby" issue as I lost a baby several years ago. I'm still on the fence about the power of prayer. I believe in God, but I struggle with believing Him).

[Caitilin]

I think that Georgiana really nailed it here:

Third, I believe prayer does change things--namely us! Prayer brings us into alignment with the Lord's perfect plan. If you and your husband are not in agreement and there is still confusion, I don't believe that's from God. Pray, pray, pray until you have peace and direction. Ask for wisdom, which God gives generously, then be attentive to His still small voice.

 

 

Like pps, I have had these questions too, but never due to pain like yours.:grouphug: But I think that what prayer does do is bring us into conformity with the truth that is God's will, and when we are able to conform our will to His, that is what prayer accomplishes. :grouphug:

[justamouse]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

You and I share a mother. They really are ignorant of how what they say hurts other people--and are oblivious as to why and how it could be wrong. :grouphug::grouphug:

 

I think it's really hard when a person who is at a point where they can't pray--is told to pray. It's like expecting a cat to fly.

 

I do not believe God has a reason for the baby dying. At all. I believe he hates it and is pained as much as we are. I don't think He 'allows' it, I think we live in a fallen world where bad, horrible stuff happens. I think the ultimate faith is still believing in God, even when the worst happens to us. That He will take this pain and give us beauty for ashes no matter how long it takes.

 

I can't even imagine what I would do if I were you. I can't. I can't imagine that pain. What I DO know is that it's OK to be angry at God. To tell Him how horrible you feel. Tell him that it's not fair and wail and that it sucks. That is where I would start. :grouphug::grouphug:

[Princess Peach]

I know you don't "know" me because I'm new here. But I wanted to offer you my condolences because I cannot imagine what you have gone through. :grouphug:

 

My first thought when reading through your post on the question of prayer was that I have struggled with this, too. And I discovered that part of my problem was that I was thinking of prayer as a sort of genie lamp. But God doesn't always say "yes". Sometimes the answer is "no", sometimes it's "wait", but His answer is always, and I mean always what is best for the pray-er if it is His will. Paul asked three times for the thorn in his side (whatever it was) to be removed. God said no and He had His reasons.

 

Keep praying. God is faithful. If your answer is not a "yes", He will give you the strength to endure.

[Ginevra]

Thanks, everyone who has responded. I'm thinking about what you each have said. I don't have anything else to add at the moment, but I just wanted you all to know I appreciate your replies.

[staceyobu]

A Praying Life... Paul Miller.

 

Would be a good read for you...

[JenniferB]

I know I'm coming in late on this topic, but I wanted to give my :grouphug:, sympathy and thoughts. We lost a baby in mid-pregnancy. Though some think of this as a miscarriage, my husband and I considered it a death in the family. It was devastating and heart breaking. I can't remember a time before or since that I felt such sadness and emptiness. When we found out that he had died in the womb, we came home to many sympathetic friends from church who are like family to us. When asked how they could pray for us I would not ask for strength to get through, I would only ask for prayer that the baby would miraculously be raised from the dead. I sincerely believed that God could raise our baby from the dead, and though I thought it was not likely, I hoped against hope that He would. He did not raise our baby from the dead. I also did not feel strength, peace, or anything but sadness for months and months. We did have another baby, and I love him to pieces, but I still choke up when I think about the boy we lost.

 

As to the will of God, what does it mean to say "will" of God? When I think of the word "will," I think "want." If I "will" something to happen, then I work to make it happen. I want it to happen. If I have "will" power, then I'm trying to resist something, I work hard at it to make sure it happens the way I want to. When people talk about the "will of God," why is it any different than a person's will? From some descriptions of the "will of God," it seems like it's some mystical plan that God doesn't really want to happen, but it has to happen that way, because without it happening that way, His entire purposes are lost in the wrong circumstances. I don't think so. I've heard some people say that God has a sovereign will and another kind of will. Huh? That doesn't make sense to me. Either God wants something to happen, or he doesn't. I don't think God wanted my baby to die. But, my baby did die. So, what does God think about that? I have to believe that God was sad about that. I can't believe that He had some sort of higher purpose to my baby dying and without my baby dying His Higher Purpose would not be able to come to pass. So, why would He let my baby die even though it grieves Him and our entire family? I think it's consistent with Scripture and real life to say that the reason He let my baby die is because He allows and has always allowed for free will since the beginning of the creation of man. And, because of free will, original sin occurred. And, because original sin occurred, the earth and all of creation was cursed with death. And, because all of creation is cursed with death, death occurs and sadness abounds.

 

So, what about prayer? Prayer is communication with God. It comes from the heart (soul, spirit, or whatever you call it) and it proceeds from there into thoughts, spoken or written words, songs, or any other creative means of communication. Prayer can be requests, but it's not always requests. You can just tell God how you feel, though He already knows how you feel, you are not just telling Him to give him information, you are telling Him to have a connection and a relationship with Him. Prayer can be a discipline also, but I don't have much experience with that because I'm not a very disciplined person. Some things that Jesus said about prayer are that prayer is personal, between one person and God, (go into your closet). Prayer is not for show (like the Pharisees). Prayer is not about repetitious requests (like the Pagans). Jesus said that God already knows all our needs, so it's not about informing God of our needs. It's about acknowledging God and all that He is and communicating with Him. Whenever I want a model prayer "warrior," I look to David. He was always crying out to God, and telling God all his thoughts and concerns, and humbling himself before God. David is an excellent model of someone with a hearty prayer life.

 

Since I just about wrote a book, I think I should get back to homeschooling now. I pray that God will give you new life, hope, and encouragement in your walk with Him.

 

p.s. Please forgive my grammar, as I've typed this out quickly and I really should get back to homeschooling instead of editing this post. :tongue_smilie:

[tex-mex]

First of all, please know that that a baby dying in labor is not senseless. We may not ever understand it fully this side of heaven, but God had a reason for it and that means it was not senseless. Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on your own understanding." As finite humans, we are very limited in our understanding of all the whys of life. Job lost all of his children in one day and was able to say, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord" and "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him."

 

I went through a similar crisis when a very good friend of mine died of a brain tumor at age 26. He had been married for a little over a year, had become a dad and then 3 months later died of cancer. Everyone I know was praying for him. His dad is one of the organizers of the presidential prayer breakfast each year and was instrumental in leading Chuck Colson to the Lord - there were thousands of people praying for this young man's healing. But he died. I had all the questions you are having.

 

What I eventually came to realize is that He is God and I am not. Basically, that just means that He is the sovereign ruler of the universe, He created it, He is intimately involved with it, He is all-wise, all-knowing, all-loving. He is good. If I cannot comprehend how my suffering fits into those truths, that does not mean those are no longer truths - it means I am a finite human who only has a fraction of the information about whatever I am suffering. I need to bow my knee to God and thank Him and praise Him regardless of what I don't understand.

 

We are on this earth to bring glory to God. He gets the most glory when we praise Him during our most difficult times. It is easy to praise Him when everything is going our way. When we can acknowledge and affirm that God is a good, wise, loving God even when our hearts are broken and we cannot understand his ways, He gets the most glory.

 

Your little one is in heaven with Jesus. You will see her when you pass from this life to the next. This temporal existence on earth is very short - no matter how long we live - it is a flash of time compared to eternity. God is more concerned with your eternal well-being than He is with your temporary life here on earth. That means that much of what happens here is designed to prepare us for eternity and we will more than likely not understand it fully.

 

Prayer is not a magic talisman. Your mother's approach to prayer, imo, seems superstitious to me, as if she thinks she has the power within herself to change the outcome of events here on earth. She is wrong. Prayer is not a magic wand any more than rubbing a rabbit's foot is or tossing salt over your shoulder is.

 

I think God is trying to help you to see that you need to bow to His will. Jesus prayed, "Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done," when he was in the Garden of Gesthemane. This is where we all need to get in one way another. We need to stop demanding to know why and to simply trust that even when we do not understand Him, we trust Him anyway.

 

I've found the words to this hymn to be especially comforting when I cannot understand God; when I am hurting and cannot see the why:

 

Be Still My Soul

 

Be still my soul, the Lord is on thy side.

Bear patiently the cross of grief or pain.

Leave to thy God to order and provide.

In every change He faithful will remain.

Be still my soul, thy best, thy heavenly Friend,

through thorny ways leads to a joyful end.

 

We are only here for a short time. We are here to glorify God in all we do and say. This world is full of sorrow and pain (remember we live in a fallen world). Cast your burden upon the Lord. He cares for you. Also, remember that He is infinite. He has no limits or restraints. He is able to give Himself fully to you as if you were the only person on the planet. Pour your grieving heart out to Him, accept His will even though you do not understand it.

 

Satan wants to discourage and destroy you. He wants you to question God's goodness and love. Defy him and affirm in your mind that although you cannot understand why you are suffering, you trust that God is more wise than you are and that He is working all things for your good. (Romans 8:28-29) When the Bible says something is for our good, that does not necessarily mean it is what we would have chosen. It means that it is conforming us to the image of Christ because that is ultimately what is best for us. Christ suffered and so will we if we are His.

 

I will praying for you.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

That was very beautifully stated.

 

To the OP: I have no answers -- just :grouphug::grouphug:.

 

The group of Jesus Freaks I hang out with are like your mom. Most of them are polite enough not to say something judgemental like that, tho'. I have found that those who walk and talk like they are some type of "spiritual" warrior -- often get attacked personally in many ways in their private life. It is sort of like the old saying, "What goes around...".

 

People can be mistaken in the giftings of prayer: I recall one time some well known intercessor came up to my SIL (she has paranoid schizophrenia) and told her to repent so she could be healed. Hubby (a well known leader in that group -- he was a minister/missionary) was furious at that gal. I was ready to deck her. No matter what belief or standing you come from, you can still be an insensitive idiot.

Edited December 9, 2010 by tex-mex

[Heather in Neverland]

First of all, please know that that a baby dying in labor is not senseless. We may not ever understand it fully this side of heaven, but God had a reason for it and that means it was not senseless. Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on your own understanding." As finite humans, we are very limited in our understanding of all the whys of life. Job lost all of his children in one day and was able to say, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord" and "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him."

 

I went through a similar crisis when a very good friend of mine died of a brain tumor at age 26. He had been married for a little over a year, had become a dad and then 3 months later died of cancer. Everyone I know was praying for him. His dad is one of the organizers of the presidential prayer breakfast each year and was instrumental in leading Chuck Colson to the Lord - there were thousands of people praying for this young man's healing. But he died. I had all the questions you are having.

 

What I eventually came to realize is that He is God and I am not. Basically, that just means that He is the sovereign ruler of the universe, He created it, He is intimately involved with it, He is all-wise, all-knowing, all-loving. He is good. If I cannot comprehend how my suffering fits into those truths, that does not mean those are no longer truths - it means I am a finite human who only has a fraction of the information about whatever I am suffering. I need to bow my knee to God and thank Him and praise Him regardless of what I don't understand.

 

We are on this earth to bring glory to God. He gets the most glory when we praise Him during our most difficult times. It is easy to praise Him when everything is going our way. When we can acknowledge and affirm that God is a good, wise, loving God even when our hearts are broken and we cannot understand his ways, He gets the most glory.

 

Your little one is in heaven with Jesus. You will see her when you pass from this life to the next. This temporal existence on earth is very short - no matter how long we live - it is a flash of time compared to eternity. God is more concerned with your eternal well-being than He is with your temporary life here on earth. That means that much of what happens here is designed to prepare us for eternity and we will more than likely not understand it fully.

 

Prayer is not a magic talisman. Your mother's approach to prayer, imo, seems superstitious to me, as if she thinks she has the power within herself to change the outcome of events here on earth. She is wrong. Prayer is not a magic wand any more than rubbing a rabbit's foot is or tossing salt over your shoulder is.

 

I think God is trying to help you to see that you need to bow to His will. Jesus prayed, "Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done," when he was in the Garden of Gesthemane. This is where we all need to get in one way another. We need to stop demanding to know why and to simply trust that even when we do not understand Him, we trust Him anyway.

 

I've found the words to this hymn to be especially comforting when I cannot understand God; when I am hurting and cannot see the why:

 

Be Still My Soul

 

Be still my soul, the Lord is on thy side.

Bear patiently the cross of grief or pain.

Leave to thy God to order and provide.

In every change He faithful will remain.

Be still my soul, thy best, thy heavenly Friend,

through thorny ways leads to a joyful end.

 

We are only here for a short time. We are here to glorify God in all we do and say. This world is full of sorrow and pain (remember we live in a fallen world). Cast your burden upon the Lord. He cares for you. Also, remember that He is infinite. He has no limits or restraints. He is able to give Himself fully to you as if you were the only person on the planet. Pour your grieving heart out to Him, accept His will even though you do not understand it.

 

Satan wants to discourage and destroy you. He wants you to question God's goodness and love. Defy him and affirm in your mind that although you cannot understand why you are suffering, you trust that God is more wise than you are and that He is working all things for your good. (Romans 8:28-29) When the Bible says something is for our good, that does not necessarily mean it is what we would have chosen. It means that it is conforming us to the image of Christ because that is ultimately what is best for us. Christ suffered and so will we if we are His.

 

I will praying for you.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

That was amazing and everything I would have said if I had a fraction of your eloquence.

[JVA]

First of all, please know that that a baby dying in labor is not senseless. We may not ever understand it fully this side of heaven, but God had a reason for it and that means it was not senseless. Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on your own understanding." As finite humans, we are very limited in our understanding of all the whys of life. Job lost all of his children in one day and was able to say, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord" and "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him."

 

I went through a similar crisis when a very good friend of mine died of a brain tumor at age 26. He had been married for a little over a year, had become a dad and then 3 months later died of cancer. Everyone I know was praying for him. His dad is one of the organizers of the presidential prayer breakfast each year and was instrumental in leading Chuck Colson to the Lord - there were thousands of people praying for this young man's healing. But he died. I had all the questions you are having.

 

What I eventually came to realize is that He is God and I am not. Basically, that just means that He is the sovereign ruler of the universe, He created it, He is intimately involved with it, He is all-wise, all-knowing, all-loving. He is good. If I cannot comprehend how my suffering fits into those truths, that does not mean those are no longer truths - it means I am a finite human who only has a fraction of the information about whatever I am suffering. I need to bow my knee to God and thank Him and praise Him regardless of what I don't understand.

 

We are on this earth to bring glory to God. He gets the most glory when we praise Him during our most difficult times. It is easy to praise Him when everything is going our way. When we can acknowledge and affirm that God is a good, wise, loving God even when our hearts are broken and we cannot understand his ways, He gets the most glory.

 

Your little one is in heaven with Jesus. You will see her when you pass from this life to the next. This temporal existence on earth is very short - no matter how long we live - it is a flash of time compared to eternity. God is more concerned with your eternal well-being than He is with your temporary life here on earth. That means that much of what happens here is designed to prepare us for eternity and we will more than likely not understand it fully.

 

Prayer is not a magic talisman. Your mother's approach to prayer, imo, seems superstitious to me, as if she thinks she has the power within herself to change the outcome of events here on earth. She is wrong. Prayer is not a magic wand any more than rubbing a rabbit's foot is or tossing salt over your shoulder is.

 

I think God is trying to help you to see that you need to bow to His will. Jesus prayed, "Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done," when he was in the Garden of Gesthemane. This is where we all need to get in one way another. We need to stop demanding to know why and to simply trust that even when we do not understand Him, we trust Him anyway.

 

I've found the words to this hymn to be especially comforting when I cannot understand God; when I am hurting and cannot see the why:

 

Be Still My Soul

 

Be still my soul, the Lord is on thy side.

Bear patiently the cross of grief or pain.

Leave to thy God to order and provide.

In every change He faithful will remain.

Be still my soul, thy best, thy heavenly Friend,

through thorny ways leads to a joyful end.

 

We are only here for a short time. We are here to glorify God in all we do and say. This world is full of sorrow and pain (remember we live in a fallen world). Cast your burden upon the Lord. He cares for you. Also, remember that He is infinite. He has no limits or restraints. He is able to give Himself fully to you as if you were the only person on the planet. Pour your grieving heart out to Him, accept His will even though you do not understand it.

 

Satan wants to discourage and destroy you. He wants you to question God's goodness and love. Defy him and affirm in your mind that although you cannot understand why you are suffering, you trust that God is more wise than you are and that He is working all things for your good. (Romans 8:28-29) When the Bible says something is for our good, that does not necessarily mean it is what we would have chosen. It means that it is conforming us to the image of Christ because that is ultimately what is best for us. Christ suffered and so will we if we are His.

 

I will praying for you.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I SO Agree :iagree:

Kathleen has clearly laid out God's sovereignty and our part in it. We will never understand some things on this earth but must hang tight to the truths of God's character: He is faithful, merciful, loving, righteous and true..... We elevate ourselves when we put our experience or suffering outside of his character. He has purpose for everything and nothing is wasted when we rest and lean on him.

It's not easy and I have not lost a child like you have. I did go through a miscarriage and learned a lot about myself and God through that. When our last child was born with serious ortho issues, one thing I learned deep in my heart was that I often am "leaning on my own understanding" and NOT "Trusting in the Lord with all my heart". There are just going to be things I won't get understanding for but my Lord walks with me everyday and leads me in His way as I allow it. Sometimes I get a bonk on the head but He's usually very patient with me. I'm so sorry for your loss and hope that you will find the peace you seek. Blessings.

[Colleen in NS]

Hugs to Danielle, Jennifer, and Kari.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Colleen in NS
My comments pale in comparison to what the three of you could share with each other.

[SailorMom]

First - I am so sorry for all of your pain :grouphug:

 

Here is my (very personal) opinion on prayer. It may seem offensive to some, but it isn't meant that way. Please take it for what it is - and know that I spent years thinking about this....

 

I do not believe God is a "genie in a bottle". He does not grant wishes or requests. Life is life - good and bad. In this case, he did not "answer" your prayer to become pregnant, nor did he "reject" your prayer when you lost your daughter.

 

I believe any God that wants me to beg to him for something is not the God I believe in. I truly believe that God has already given us what we need here and it is our job to find it.

 

I only believe prayer should be used in two circumstances: to give thanks to him for everything we already have here, and to ask in help to find the wisdom to figure that out. We already, each of us in differing amounts, have the courage, wisdom, love, and strength that we were lovingly given to us - we just have to figure out how to use them.

Edited December 10, 2010 by SailorMom

[Ginevra]

We will never understand some things on this earth but must hang tight to the truths of God's character: He is faithful, merciful, loving, righteous and true..... We elevate ourselves when we put our experience or suffering outside of his character. He has purpose for everything and nothing is wasted when we rest and lean on him.

 

But here's the thing: (and I know this will sound blasphemous, though I don't intend it that way) What makes anyone believe God is faithful, merciful, loving, righteous and true, that he's omnipotent and omnibenevolent and omniscient, if one's life experiences don't bear that out? It's actually easier to view my daughter's death through a deistic lens than to try to square a God of infinite power and boundless love, who nevertheless doesn't or won't or can't avert disaster. I realize this is not a "new" theological question. How can I love God, or trust God if trusting Him before brought disaster? It's like that fall-backwards-while-your-friend-catches you test; if they let you fall and bonk your head, you can't fall fearlessly back again.

[JenniferB]

It's like that fall-backwards-while-your-friend-catches you test; if they let you fall and bonk your head, you can't fall fearlessly back again.

 

But, He did catch you - when He died on the cross.

 

When I ask myself why I love God, it's because of the cross. When I wonder why terrible things and death happens I have to conclude, it's because of original sin, and the fallen state of creation. God created everything, and it was good. Then, sin entered the world, and with sin, death. If we can only love God in the absence of death and sadness, then we can never love God on this side of Heaven, because there is death everywhere on this side of Heaven. It will eventually touch all of us in very personal ways. If we live a long life it will touch us many times over. We can know that God is good because His creation is good and because He came to us and made wine from water :D, healed the sick, cast out demons, ministered and taught about loving God and people, then He died on the cross for us so we can have open and personal relationship with Him without the stench of sin between us.

Edited December 11, 2010 by JenniferB
wine from water, not water from wine (who'd want that?)

[Kathleen in VA]

But, He did catch you - when He died on the cross.

 

When I ask myself why I love God, it's because of the cross. When I wonder why terrible things and death happens I have to conclude, it's because of original sin, and the fallen state of creation. God created everything, and it was good. Then, sin entered the world, and with sin, death. If we can only love God in the absence of death and sadness, then we can never love God on this side of Heaven, because there is death everywhere on this side of Heaven. It will eventually touch all of us in very personal ways. If we live a long life it will touch us many times over. We can know that God is good because His creation is good and because He came to us and made wine from water :D, healed the sick, cast out demons, ministered and taught about loving God and people, then He died on the cross for us so we can have open and personal relationship with Him without the stench of sin between us.

 

:iagree:Exactly. We also know that God is good and all those other things I mentioned because the Bible says He is. I know you are hurting very, very much and you are questioning the goodness of God because you do not understand how He can allow so much pain into your life if He really loves you. You do not understand because you are finite and cannot see all that God is working in you and on your behalf through your sorrow and grief. Of course, you don't understand. Of course, you are doubting. But don't leave it there. Ask God to heal your pain, tell him you are confused and angry and afraid to trust Him. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you and then grab your Bible and read, read, read - that is where you will find Him. Read the Psalms.

 

Through your tears pray for God to show Himself to you and to comfort you and hold you in His tender care. I'm so very sorry for the loss of your dear little one. As Jennifer said, this world is full of death and sorrow and suffering and it is all a result of sin having entered the world when Adam chose to disobey. We are all sinners - we have all disobeyed God in one way or another. None of us deserves mercy or grace, but God sent his dear Son, his only Son to suffer and die on the cross for our sins so that we would not have to spend eternity in hell. He made a way to bridge the gulf between our sinfulness and His righteousness - Jesus, our Savior.

 

This world offers so little, but it is only temporary. Our suffering is only temporary. Jesus rose again and conquered death and if we place our trust in Him and believe that His death paid for our sins, then we will live with Him for eternity. There will be no more pain, no more tears, no more death. Heaven is our real home. You can trust God because He gave His only Son to die in your place to redeem you from hell. We cannot understand fully all the whys of our sorrow and pain - not now - but we will see clearly when we see Him in Heaven. All our questions will be answered. We will see how He took the tragic, awful things in our life and worked them for good and then we will understand why our lives happened the way they did.

 

Of course, we want our questions answered now, but that is not His way. He asks us to simply trust Him - even in the midst of our pain - to trust that although we do not understand His ways, we affirm that He is a merciful, good God. If we are suffering, it is because He has ordained it and He will not waste it - He will use it for His glory and for our good to conform us to the image of His precious Son, Jesus Christ. My heart is breaking for you - I know you are in a lot of pain. Cry out to God and He will deliver you.

 

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways, My ways" says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8-9

[Kari C in SC]

 

(I believe in God, but I struggle with believing Him).

 

Wow! This is ME! Since my son died, I have struggled. I am flat out MAD AS HELL at God! There I said it! I prayed for my child to be safe. I prayed for him to be a good man. I prayed for all sorts of things. And then he helps a young girl who is going to get her car impounded for driving without a license. He drives away with her, for some reason I WILL NEVER KNOW - he pulls over on the side of the road, takes an amazing picture of the two of them, she then gets in the driver's seat to accidentally pass and hit a semi head on! WHY MY CHILD??? Did I not pray enough for him? Why on earth would God give a 16 and 17 year old girl and boy the crazy idea to have a baby and start their family so young. Why would that same girl's family love that child so much only for a stupid car accident to take him away. I don't know. I do know as this other poster said that "I believe in God, but I struggle with believing Him." There you have me. I know He exists. I have no doubt, but I do not understand HIM one single tiny bit. So, to keep from going absolutely crazy I remind myself of the Serenity Prayer and no - I am not from AA - but it applies.

 

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;

Enjoying one moment at a time;

Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;

Taking, as He did, this sinful world

as it is, not as I would have it;

Trusting that He will make all things right

if I surrender to His Will;

That I may be reasonably happy in this life

and supremely happy with Him

Forever in the next.

Amen.

 

Some days I still find I pray like I always used to. Some days I find that I can't bring myself to pray. I believe that God is big enough and awesome enough to understand us even when we can't pray the words. Hugs to you. I wish you peace.

[Ginevra]

I prayed for my child to be safe. I prayed for him to be a good man. I prayed for all sorts of things. And then he helps a young girl who is going to get her car impounded for driving without a license. He drives away with her, for some reason I WILL NEVER KNOW - he pulls over on the side of the road, takes an amazing picture of the two of them, she then gets in the driver's seat to accidentally pass and hit a semi head on! WHY MY CHILD??? Did I not pray enough for him? Why on earth would God give a 16 and 17 year old girl and boy the crazy idea to have a baby and start their family so young. Why would that same girl's family love that child so much only for a stupid car accident to take him away. I don't know. I do know as this other poster said that "I believe in God, but I struggle with believing Him." There you have me.

:grouphug: Those questions make a lot of sense to me. I'm so sorry for your loss.

[texasmama]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

What a great loss you have experienced. I am so sorry.:grouphug:

 

I have experienced several situations in my life in which I prayed and prayed and many people prayed with me, and the situations did not resolve the way I wanted or expected them to. My mother died, and my youngest dd was born with a birth defect. I was very injured in the area of prayer for a long time...perhaps I still am. I will sometimes still resent it when my dh asks me to pray for something. I sometimes think, "What is the point? God will do what God will do." Yet in the Bible we are told to pray, not just to ask God for things but to communicate with Him in many other ways. I still pray for people, but I don't know if I always believe it is changing anything. Maybe what it is changing is my heart. Maybe these are things we will not know the answers to this side of heaven. I don't know. I have also become comfortable saying and feeling "I don't know" about a lot of things.

 

When I feel this way, I have to go back to what I do know for certain. God is good. His love for me is everlasting. His hope endures forever. This earth (and all of its trials) is just a tiny piece of what we will experience in eternity. I have let go.

 

(I also experience a chronic health condition which is unexplained. It is not painful usually, just bothersome. I live with it every day and have for several years. I have been prayed for countless times. I have asked God to remove it. Dh has asked God to remove it. Why isn't it gone? I don't know. Perhaps it reminds me that I am mortal.)