Can we talk Sonlight's questionable books...

[michaeljenn]

As I was reading Sonlight's catalog, I saw several books with s**ual content in them. I know that their arguement is to give a picture of how history was, but I just don't know if I want my children reading this!

 

I don't have my catalog right beside me so I cannot give actual names of the books in question.. but, I did read on the SL's message board that one of the books made the actual parent feel "dirty" while reading it. Oh... this one is The Flames of Rome, I think. Then there is one that has references to s*x while ministering to New York Gangs or something.

 

Anyway, I am just wondering what everyone thinks of this. It almost seems like I am giving my child "thoughts" I would rather them not have. They already know that the Romans commited sinful acts to get what they wanted, but do we need to go into the gory details. They already know what teenagers are facing and doing these days, but do we need to let them read about it in a book???????

 

So, am I being overly cautious here? Thoughts??

 

This really makes me sad, because I was all set to just go with Sonlight:glare:

[Susie in MS]

I feel the same way! And it is not just SL that does this, unfortunatly. Thanks for the heads up about Flames of Rome. I have this on my shelf but have not read it. What a waste of money!

[DB in NJ]

There are so many variables that it's impossible to answer this question. I think the bottom line is that you need to do what you feel right doing with your children.

 

My 17 yo ds could handle it just fine, and he'd be a better man for it. My 13 yo dd??? No way. It'd fill her head with the WRONG ideas. She's just not as mature -- spiritually, emotionally, etc. -- as her brother. He's a solid, strong, sturdy oak, not likely to be swayed by anything (stubbornness has its advantages). She, on the other hand, is a weeping willow -- blown about by the slightest of breezes, totally caught up in whatever direction moves her.

 

As she gets older, we do speak of these things (obviously), but I want to be the one she's having the conversation with, not a book.

 

BTW, in looking at your kids' ages in your sig. line, I'd say they're pretty young for this anyway. I adore Sonlight (I fought that for years), and there are plenty of wonderful books to choose from in every Core. Just skip the ones you don't think your kids are ready for and enjoy the rest of the curriculum.

[Jeannie in NJ]

I have used Sonlight with my dc since kindergarden and plan to go thru at least 200. We are currently using level 6 and 7. I pre-read Flames of Rome since so many of the ladies on the Sonlight forums skip it and use the Mark of the Lion series instead. I WILL NOT be using Flames of Rome. I will also pre-read (I pre-read everything) the Mark of the Lion series before we get to 200.

I will probably not use level 300 (20th Century History as I really dislike most of the books that are in that level). That is rare as so far I have loved most of the books that Sonlight uses. I have not decided yet if we will use 400 (Government) but we will use 530 (British Lit) as it looks wonderful.

[Audrey]

I think this is one of those things where you have to know your own kids emotional maturity. I'm not for censoring sex, just because it is sex, but there are obvious factors at stake in the depth of content and emotional maturity of the child. Bottom line: if you feel your kids can't handle it, don't give them the book. If in your opinion, your child is mature enough, by all means let them read it.

[paula j]

First of all, these books are both from the upper high school cores. I would definately read any book I deemed questionable before handing it even to my high school child, but then I try to read all the books before giving them to my dc. I haven't found anything with that sort of content in the younger cores, we are getting ready to start core 6 and I haven't found anything in what I've read from that core yet. Well actually, come to think of it, there were a few curse words in Cheaper by the Dozen but they can easily be replace by something like "Darn" as it is a read-aloud in core 4, or you could black them out with a sharpie.;)

 

I have read Flames of Rome when I read through core 200 for my own interest in Church history. I gained a huge amount of insight from this book about the culture of the times and about early Christianity. There were a couple of parts that contained S**ual content but they could easily be blacked out with my ever popular sharpie, or as a previous poster said, after reading it, if you don't think it will work, then skip that book.

[Rhondabee]

I don't see why you would throw out an entire curriculum that you'd like to use for next year because of one or two books that are years away. Especially with SL - who knows if those books will still be one the list by the time your dc is ready for the high school cores?

 

And, by the time your child is old enough for that core, you may appreciate that SL gives you a "safe" place to discuss some of those issues with your dc.

 

(One heads up: Catherine Called Birdy in Core 6 is certainly not graphic, but does mention s*x. It could have been easily skipped over, and it was embarrassing at first to talk about what was going on with my then-12yo, but it has opened up a line of communication that has helped him tremendously as he is facing and over-coming his own temptations.)

 

:)

Rhonda

[Lovedtodeath]

or you could black them out with a sharpie.;)

 

There were a couple of parts that contained S**ual content but they could easily be blacked out with my ever popular sharpie, or as a previous poster said, after reading it, if you don't think it will work, then skip that book.

 

I would be worried a sharpie would bleed through the page. I would probably try white-out instead. Or I could be wrong, since it seems you have already done this. :D

[michaeljenn]

Thanks for the replies..... I actually feel alot better about Sonlight now. I have been trying to check out books from the library to pre-read for core 7, and so far so good.... but I was just starting to get very concerned!! Sounds like the questionable books are few and far between, and would not hurt to take them out if I thought necessary.

 

I do agree that it does depend on the emotional maturity of the child. So, I guess I will have to use discernment when that time actually comes.

 

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Carol in Cal.]

I am always glad that I have an opportunity to pontificate on something like this. I don't work it into our everyday conversation, but during a readaloud I might comment a bit. I have not read aloud a very explicit book yet, and I don't know that I will. But I have read aloud books with pretty clear allusions and it has worked out quite well.

 

I remember when I was growing up there was always this subtext of 'oh, I'm going to evade this' in conversations with my mom. She would never own these feelings, either. She would not acknowlege that she was not answering my questions. She would just evade and get mad. That is a terrible stance on many levels. I refuse to do it. If there is something that I don't care to discuss, I say, I will not discuss that because it is private or I will not discuss that with you until you are older. It is going on the 'older' list! That way DD isn't left thinking that she is evil to ask questions like I was.

 

I just finished pre-reading "To Kill a Mockingbird" in preparation for reading it to my DD, who is almost 12. I think that this book keeps its explicitness to a reasonble level; and although it raises some very difficult issues, it is well-written, on the right side of the morals involved, and is something that I am comfortable reading out loud. Frankly, I am most concerned about how to handle the n-word rather than the disturbing s*xual scenes. I have never said that word and I don't think I can either say it or ignore it. I'm not at all sure what to do.

[TracyR]

Yes most definitley like the ladies here have said . Just because you have the book doesn't mean you have to use it now . I know for Core K there was the book Twenty and Ten ,which was about WW2 and the Nazi's . At the time I didn't feel my 5yr old was ready for a book like that . But she is 10 now and I think we get more out the book now then we would of when she was 5 . So yes definitley individual maturity play a big factor in when you decide to introduce some of Sonlight's books . But to me they have all been really good books so far .

[SheWhoWaits]

The Flames of Rome is SL 200, which means it is meant for high school. The s*xual content is very accurate historically (I was a classics major in college). We just did SL 200 last year. I read the book, but decided not to have my kids read it. I didn't think the 13 year old was mature enough and the 15 year old was taking AP Lit with a gifted students program so he only did the history and Bible, not readers. That said, I would definitely have allowed an older teenager to read the book, with discussion. It shows how corrupt and Godless the Roman empire was, which I think is important for students to understand. I don't think the s*xual content would give kids any ideas. The book doesn't promote promiscuity or make it sound wonderful, it just tells it like it is, with all the dirty consequences.

 

The other book you mentioned, I think, is th Cross and the Switchblade. I don't remember which SL core uses that one, but it is one of the high school cores, too. I would absolutely allow my 14 (was 13) year old to read that one, and already had my 16 (was 15) year old read it. It's a great story of God's redemption of kids from the gutter.

 

Generally, I trust Sonlight. They think very much the same way I do on a wide variety of issues. However, I would never give questionable books to my kids without reading them first. That's just part of being a good teacher (and a responsible parent). In fact, I preread everything I assign to my children.

[abreakfromlife]

I feel dirty :tongue_smilie: I have Flames of Rome and love it. The author teaches at our university and I got to meet him and he signed a copy.....I would love to take a class from him but it's so expensive even to audit it. I haven't read it with a kid in mind, since mine are obviously way too young. But I'm very, very cautious in what I read....I don't know if I'm just not remembering the bad stuff, or if it didn't bother me b/c it was so historically accurate or what. I can see parents not wanting their kids to read something like that, but I'm surprised at how many parents didn't like it for themselves. Like I said, I feel dirty :001_huh: and now I want to go read the book again :lol:

[G5052]

I personally wouldn't use a core at the level of my oldest because of this. We're currently using Core 3 with an 11 and almost 9 y.o., and it's just right for our family. We'll start Core 4 in January or so.

 

My friend who has used Sonlight for 15 years now tells me that pre-reading the upper-level books is a good idea, especially if they're iffy. She has dropped or substituted a few books that she wasn't comfortable with. Thus far we haven't dropped any in Cores PK-3 though. We'll be using Science Core 5 this fall and I'm dropping the s** education book only because it's frankly at a level below where they are and I need to make up a little time here and there.

[Miss Marple]

I loved Flames of Rome (and I didn't even feel dirty reading it *grin*). However, I just opted out on that one for my son who was in 8th grade at the time. I would probably have no problem with him reading it now (18) or even a year ago. My main objection was not the content of the book so much as the images it *could* set up in a hormone-surging young man. It's definitely a maturity issue rather than a 'dirty' book issue, IMO.

 

And if the Cross and the Switchblade book is an issue, rent it on dvd. It's probably a little more tame. I read the book as a young teen and can't say that I've been troubled over the years by it :-) unless it seared my conscience enough to read Flames of Rome :smilielol5:

[LaMere Academy]

Thanks for the replies..... I actually feel alot better about Sonlight now. I have been trying to check out books from the library to pre-read for core 7, and so far so good.... but I was just starting to get very concerned!! Sounds like the questionable books are few and far between, and would not hurt to take them out if I thought necessary.

 

I do agree that it does depend on the emotional maturity of the child. So, I guess I will have to use discernment when that time actually comes.

 

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My 14 yr old son will be doing Core 200, I'm skipping Flames of Rome for this reason. You can always skip a book or two if need be. I'm trying to preread his literature so I'll know. We're also skipping The Westminster Catechism because it talks about hom*se*uality and be*stialty. Um, NO WAY am I ready for those. Yes he reads the Bible, but only passages I assign. I'm not ready to delve into that until 16 years old at least.

My 12 yr old is will be doing Core 6 and I'm prereading all her readers, just in case.

I love Sonlight, but I do wish I didn't have to preread the books

[Mosaicmind]

I think it really depends on the maturity and conviction of each individual child. For instance, dd/18 from the time she was 10 was beyond her years in maturity and spiritual matters. She knew where she stood on purity, language, her faith, and moral values. We taught her some of that, but the other was from growing up hearing what the Lord's will was for a Christian.

 

Now, ds/14 will not be reading anything with questionable content unless I am reading it along with him. I will not ban it from our home, but I will be there for questions and when things come up that he can't quite get his head around. If he really wants to read something he will find a way to get it.

 

It's my opinion anyway that if you make a "big" deal over something your children are more likely to seek out that certain thing and do what you don't want them to do. I know because I have done it and so has some of my dc.

[rhrice3]

After many posts about this book, I felt that I must read it before giving it to my son. I read it, and I will defend it as a wonderful choice.

First of all, I like that it was written by not only a very well respected historian and teacher but a Christian.

Secondly, it is important to me as a Christian and to my children as Christians, to always remember, our Lord did not enter a sweet, G-rated world. Our Lord was sent to us during the Roman Empire. I believe God had a reason for that timing, and we should look at the beginning and rise of Christianity through the eyes of Paul, Jesus, Stephen, etc. during this Roman era.

Lastly, the History of God's Kingdom year is a time of learning about Christianity's history and a time of learning about ourselves. It is a very good time to be discussing these issues with your 14-16 year old.

My 2 cents

RRice

[Mommy22alyns]

Has anyone else snuck "Flames of Rome" into their Amazon cart? :001_huh: :lol:

[Mosaicmind]

:iagree:

After many posts about this book, I felt that I must read it before giving it to my son. I read it, and I will defend it as a wonderful choice.

First of all, I like that it was written by not only a very well respected historian and teacher but a Christian.

Secondly, it is important to me as a Christian and to my children as Christians, to always remember, our Lord did not enter a sweet, G-rated world. Our Lord was sent to us during the Roman Empire. I believe God had a reason for that timing, and we should look at the beginning and rise of Christianity through the eyes of Paul, Jesus, Stephen, etc. during this Roman era.

Lastly, the History of God's Kingdom year is a time of learning about Christianity's history and a time of learning about ourselves. It is a very good time to be discussing these issues with your 14-16 year old.

My 2 cents

RRice

[Melissa in CA]

We're also skipping The Westminster Catechism because it talks about hom*se*uality and be*stialty.

 

WHAT!!?? LOL My husband and boys read this one together and I don't remember this ever coming up! :confused: Hmmm...that's interesting...I'll have to ask them, Not that I would have deleted it from their reading because it's an excellent book and a 10th grader is old enough to be told about the depravity of man. We live in an ugly, ugly world folks. :tongue_smilie:

[Melissa in CA]

One of my son's very favorite memorable books of Core 300 was one with TONS of bad langauge in it....even he thought it had a lot and he works with a bunch of teenagers who curse like sailors. The book was Fallen Angels. He said it was a GREAT book though...which is apparently why SL chose it.

 

All in all I think SL does a pretty decent job of picking appropriate books, but once in a while you will run across a :001_huh:?? LOL

[swellmomma]

I do not censor my kids books beyond simply waiting until they are old enough. Currently my oldest two are each reading their own versions of the body book. I figure if they can read a book that not only goes through puberty, but also sex with diagrams, a few comments in an otherwise good book when they are old enough will not be horrid. The thoughts of sex etc are already in the heads of teens, presenting it in a book just offers another chance to open those lines of communication with them.

[Laura in VA]

I pre-read it and blacked out all of the f-words, but evidently I missed a few! I knew he knew what was behind the marked lines, but it made me feel better knowing he wouldn't actually see the words. He liked the book as well.

[paula j]

I feel dirty :tongue_smilie: I have Flames of Rome and love it. The author teaches at our university and I got to meet him and he signed a copy.....I would love to take a class from him but it's so expensive even to audit it. I haven't read it with a kid in mind, since mine are obviously way too young. But I'm very, very cautious in what I read....I don't know if I'm just not remembering the bad stuff, or if it didn't bother me b/c it was so historically accurate or what. I can see parents not wanting their kids to read something like that, but I'm surprised at how many parents didn't like it for themselves. Like I said, I feel dirty :001_huh: and now I want to go read the book again :lol:

 

Don't feel dirty, as I stated earlier in this thread, I loved the book and learned alot about the culture of the time from it. Ok, only to make you feel better, I read it twice. Ok, guess I will have to go into hiding now.:001_huh:

[paula j]

Hey all,

 

Just wanted to mention that I'm really sorry to have mentioned sharpies. I have never used one personally to edit a book as dh and his dbs language can get colorful so ds has probably heard the words anyway - I just don't choose to read those words aloud.:) I don't know if they bleed through or not. I just offered this as a suggestion as there was a really long thread about it over on sonlight, like 20 pages long. Anyway this seems to be something alot of people choose to do. Anyway I was just offering it up as a suggestion as I hate for anyone to miss out on the great books sonlight offers because of a few words. Anyway, didn't mean to offend anyone and sure didn't think I'd get bad rep over it.:confused:

[siloam]

Hey all,

 

Just wanted to mention that I'm really sorry to have mentioned sharpies. I have never used one personally to edit a book as dh and his dbs language can get colorful so ds has probably heard the words anyway - I just don't choose to read those words aloud.:) I don't know if they bleed through or not. I just offered this as a suggestion as there was a really long thread about it over on sonlight, like 20 pages long. Anyway this seems to be something alot of people choose to do. Anyway I was just offering it up as a suggestion as I hate for anyone to miss out on the great books sonlight offers because of a few words. Anyway, didn't mean to offend anyone and sure didn't think I'd get bad rep over it.:confused:

 

 

(((paula j)))

 

I wonder if that new strip correction tape wouldn't work? (New to me because I have never used it-I think it is actually been out a while.) Not the liquid stuff. The stuff that is more like a sticker.

 

There are quite a few ladies on SL who use sharpies with Usborne books, but the pages are quite a bit heavier. I don't think it would work with a chapter book. I am sure that is where you got the idea through.

 

I don't remember the bad content, but I know that as an adult I enjoyed the Flames of Rome. No it isn't for fun reading, it is giving context to Biblical times. I found it fascinating. Now would I let my High School student read it? No clue, not going to worry about it till I get there.

 

Heather

 

 

[paula j]

Thanks Heather, that may be where I read it but I was thinking it was on the sl american history board. Anyway, guess I'm not very thick skinned and that was my first bad rep, (probably won't be the last) and I felt bad about mentioning it.:001_unsure:

 

(((paula j)))

 

I wonder if that new strip correction tape wouldn't work? (New to me because I have never used it-I think it is actually been out a while.) Not the liquid stuff. The stuff that is more like a sticker.

 

There are quite a few ladies on SL who use sharpies with Usborne books, but the pages are quite a bit heavier. I don't think it would work with a chapter book. I am sure that is where you got the idea through.

 

I don't remember the bad content, but I know that as an adult I enjoyed the Flames of Rome. No it isn't for fun reading, it is giving context to Biblical times. I found it fascinating. Now would I let my High School student read it? No clue, not going to worry about it till I get there.

 

Heather