Public school frustrations for former HSers

[EthiopianFood]

I had no clue and picked Catholic because my sister's name was Kathy. I was just 9, and not a dullard, either. That is how kids make decisions past the "fun factor".

 

:lol:

[tex-mex]

Well look at it from the teacher's perspective. She has to meet the needs of a large classroom of students who have all sorts of abilities. She is often told what she is to teach and sometimes how she is to teach it.

 

I think if you want to control these things, you have to homeschool. I'm not saying schools should not try to meet individual needs, but the fact you covered some of the material already isn't really one of those needs I think the school should be expected to address. Offering more challenge might be easy enough. But again, either you homeschool or you accept the way they do things.

 

And I don't mean accept what they do no matter what. But you can't control every subject they cover, how they cover it, and how they determine someone has mastered a certain concept or not.

 

I think everything you are saying sounds insanely frustrating, so I'm not siding with the school, but it is precisely why I homeschool. So I can do things the way I want to.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

As a former schoolteacher, I know teaching to a group of students is difficult as you have all types of abilities -- my job as a teacher was to teach to the middle. The gifted and low ability students were left out. And yes, having taught 1st/2nd grades, the Fall to Winter is always a review and pretty concrete with required subjects. The teacher really cannot cater to your wishes and create a whole new curriculum just for your child. I also think pulling them in and out of ps to hs does not help children (in ps one semester and pulled out to hs -- every year) -- I saw it too often with a few homeschooling families -- and one particular hs family did it too often EVERY YEAR that the kids rebelled by the time 5th grade hit and refused to listen to parents with homeschooling.

[tex-mex]

Your 1st & 2nd graders decided where and how they would be educated this year?

 

Is this for real?

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but really, that is bonkers!

 

Who are the parents? Who calls the shots?

 

I wonder about how hard it will be to guide my kids in choosing the colleges at 17. . . I couldn't fathom allowing them input on something as fundamentally important as the basic structure of their education at age 7 or 8, let alone the deciding vote.

 

You said it more bluntly than I did in the previous post. That one hs family who pulled their kids in and out -- and in and out of ps to hs in cycles -- had the kids in charge. Mom was powerless. Thus, the kids rebelled on her by 5th grade.

[catz]

Please remember that when a child scores "7th grade" it usually means that she/he is reading that material as well as a 7th grader would read that material, NOT that they are reading 7th grade material. Big difference and often confused.

 

It really depends on the test. If you did a grade level exam, that is true (i.e. designed for testing 2nd graders). That really doesn't tell you very much if your child is working above grade level. If you do an open ended above level test like the Woodcock Johnson or the Peabody achievement, and you have a child scoring more than 3 grade levels ahead you probably have a highly gifted child. We had this done for our oldest and it was very telling.

 

If you think your child may be gifted, it may be worth it to do testing (IQ and/or achievement). My GT oldest attended PS for 2 years and it did not work at all for him. It was actually damaging to him.

 

Good luck making your decisions!

[NanceXToo]

I think first and second grade is too young to know what's best for their education.

 

If you don't feel they are getting a quality education, then pull them and give them one.

 

I hs because I believe it better, so I don't give my children a choice.

 

Might not be a popular opinion, but there it is.

 

I agree. If we were talking about an older kid who wanted to give public school a shot, I'd be more willing to talk about it (taking their reasons, maturity, etc into consideration, too). But a 6 and 7 year old? No, that would not be up to them.

[TKDmom]

Your 1st & 2nd graders decided where and how they would be educated this year?

 

Is this for real?

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but really, that is bonkers!

 

Who are the parents? Who calls the shots?

 

I wonder about how hard it will be to guide my kids in choosing the colleges at 17. . . I couldn't fathom allowing them input on something as fundamentally important as the basic structure of their education at age 7 or 8, let alone the deciding vote.

 

Gifted is an IQ thing. You can probably have your kids tested privately for IQ & submit the results to the school system. If you think that's appropriate, go ahead and do it.

 

Meanwhile, rethink the unhealthy power you are giving to your kids. It is not good for them, and it is not good for you. Kids have parents to make these big life decisions for them!

 

Ouch! That really was too harsh IMO. Advice is much easier to take when it doesn't descend into personal attacks on someone else's parenting decisions. I'm not sure if Lydia is coming back to these boards, so I thought I'd briefly step in and come to her defense (we know each other IRL). There is obviously more going on in her life than she's chosen to share in this one brief post. She has mixed feelings about where her kids are right now, and she's frustrated. I think we can all identify with that.

[Haiku]

Should I invoke parental privilege and say that home school is for his own good?

 

That's what I would do. My little kids are in 3rd and 2nd and it's not their choice whether they homeschool or go to school. They are homeschooled because it's what my dh and I think is best for them.

 

I would never let my kids mark time in a school where they were getting essentially nothing but enjoyment of recess. My kids would be home yesterday. I would not leave this decision up to a small child.

 

Tara

[OleanderRain]

I am truly disgusted by things that have been said in this thread. I would not be surprised if the OP didn't return. Lydia said that her and her husband prayed about sending their kids to school. I'm sure that she put alot of thought into it and did not take making this decision lightly.

 

I just allowed my daughter to start school this week. She has been asking to go, because she was craving the social interaction with her peers, something I have been failing at providing her despite all of my efforts, and I decided to allow her to go. But not after I thought long and hard about it.

 

Please do not bash people because they say that their child decided to go to public school. OBVIOUSLY it is ultimately the parents decision on whether a child attends public school or homeschools. To come down on someone because they took their childs thoughts into consideration is really harsh and quite frankly offensive. :sad:

 

OP, I'm sorry that you are getting so much criticism, if you decide to stay I encourage you to post in the afterschooling forum. I'm sure people will be more understanding there.

[Haiku]

Please do not bash people because they say that their child decided to go to public school.

 

I have a child in public school. I don't bash people for sending their kids to school. But public school is a huge trade-off, and there are sometimes instances where the trade-offs aren't worth it (in my family, obviously they are, for one specific child; my others are homeschooled). The OP stated that she has been unable to reach agreement with her son's teacher. She is unsatisfied with the school's assessment of her child. She stated that the kids went to school because they wanted to. In this instance, it's reasonable to suggest that she make the decision she thinks is best regardless of whether it's what her kids say they want.

 

Tara

[OleanderRain]

She stated that the kids went to school because they wanted to. In this instance, it's reasonable to suggest that she make the decision she thinks is best regardless of whether it's what her kids say they want.

 

Tara

 

This confuses me, perhaps you meant to word this another way? :confused:

[OleanderRain]

I do think it's respectful to give your opinion on whether or not the OP should bring her children home or keep them in school but to attack someone for "letting their children make the decision to go to school" is not. I just think some people on here are being insensitive. I'm not even the OP and it hurt my feeling to read some of the replies.

[Pink Fairy]

Ouch! That really was too harsh IMO. Advice is much easier to take when it doesn't descend into personal attacks on someone else's parenting decisions. I'm not sure if Lydia is coming back to these boards, so I thought I'd briefly step in and come to her defense (we know each other IRL). There is obviously more going on in her life than she's chosen to share in this one brief post. She has mixed feelings about where her kids are right now, and she's frustrated. I think we can all identify with that.

 

 

I'm glad to know there are extenuating circumstances, even if the OP chose not to share. When you say something outrageous like you are letting your very young children decide about homeschooling, that's all people are going to hear and respond too.

[OleanderRain]

Yes, some people were harsh but my guess is that they were typing while still surprised. This kind of thing has come up before and the overwhelming majority of the board is of the opinion that young children shouldn't make schooling choices, those important decisions should be up to parents.

 

 

 

I'm glad to know there are extenuating circumstances, even if the OP chose not to share. When you say something outrageous like you are letting your very young children decide about homeschooling, that's all people are going to hear and respond too.

 

But even when someone says that their child decided to go to school isn't it obvious that the parent still has to make the decision on whether to enroll them or not? I just had to make this decision last week. It's not something I just up and did without thinking about it. And after reading Lydia's first post I wouldn't just assume that about her either. Perhaps, being in her same situation makes me realize that a little quicker and also more sensitive to the negative things that are being said.

 

I do appreciate you trying to help me see where others are coming from, Cadam. :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

My son who is now in First Grade told me today he wants to come home and homeschool

 

 

[Reaction on forum]

 

Woo Hoo!!!

 

:party: :party: :party:

 

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

My 6 year old son told me he wants to attend Public School

 

[Reaction on forum]

 

YOU are the parent, why do YOU let a child decide ANYTHING!

 

The level of discourtesy and hypocrisy is saddening, but not unpredictable.

 

Props to you OleanderRain.

 

Sheez.

 

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

In my opinion, the decision on what schooling method to use is complex. Yes, socialization issues are one factor in the decision. And yes, the child's personal opinion can be one factor in the decision too. But neither of those are the only factors and aren't even the most important factors. Factors actually having to do with their education should be more important.

 

I realize that in most of our society the idea of making this a conscious choice is a foreign idea. Most of society just puts their children into the ps because it is a cultural expectation. So I applaud Lydia and others who are trying to think this through.

 

But please pay attention to those of us with a bit more of this journey under our belts. It was to get our advice that you came to this board, wasn't it? The reason we feel so strongly about how this decision is made is because the way it is made is almost as important as the decision itself. When the decision is made without all the factors being considered and without the factors being prioritized, then it creates pressure on the children. And it creates a disturbance in the schools because you expect things from the school that they are not able to provide.

[Tabrett]

I haven't read all the posts, but as a former teacher, a teacher is not worried about a student who is doing well in school and is not causing problems. They have too many dc who are struggling and who are discipline problems to worry about a dc who is doing well.

Schools do not cater to students like your dc. Dc like yours are the only students a teacher doesn't have to worry about. They are the kind of dc who just glide along. Teachers are not required to go above and beyond for a student who is doing well and teachers will become very irritated at you, the parent, for constantly asking them to do so.

 

I am sorry to have to say these thing. We, as parents, think our children are special and deserve to best. Public schools are not there to provide the best for your individual child, but to make sure they are able to do the academics at their grade level. If you dc is already doing academics above grade level, there job is done and they can put their efforts into the dc who are struggling and causing problems.

 

This is why I homeschool. My dc are average, but are working above grade level in particular subects. You don't have to be gifted to work above grade level. "Grade level" is probably about 25% lower than what an average child can do. It's called a "C" average.

 

If you want your dc challenged and to be doing work on the level the are capable, I suggest you afterschool or homeschool. Honestly, IMHO, if I am gong to spent the energy to afterschool, I might as well homeschool and find social outlets for my dc.

[Impish]

I think first and second grade is too young to know what's best for their education.

 

If you don't feel they are getting a quality education, then pull them and give them one.

 

I hs because I believe it better, so I don't give my children a choice.

 

Might not be a popular opinion, but there it is.

:iagree:

I don't understand...if your intention is to hs in the future, why not do it now?

 

And other pp are right...you simply cannot expect a teacher with 20+ other kids in the class to be able to individualize learning for your child(ren). Its an impossible thing for a teacher to do.

 

Wanting to bash mailboxes is an extreme reaction, imo. Makes me wonder what else is going on, that you're emotions are so close to the surface that a meeting with teachers provoked such a reaction.

[Haiku]

This confuses me, perhaps you meant to word this another way? :confused:

 

I'm not sure what's unclear, but I'll try again. To me, it sounds like the OP is saying her kids went to school because they wanted to. She is now unsatisfied with the results. I'm suggesting that she should make the decision SHE thinks is best for the kids, even if it's not what they want. Meaning, if she thinks homeschooling them would be better, she should do it, even if the kids say they want to go to school.

 

Tara

[OleanderRain]

In my opinion, the decision on what schooling method to use is complex. Yes, socialization issues are one factor in the decision. And yes, the child's personal opinion can be one factor in the decision too. But neither of those are the only factors and aren't even the most important factors. Factors actually having to do with their education should be more important.

 

I realize that in most of our society the idea of making this a conscious choice is a foreign idea. Most of society just puts their children into the ps because it is a cultural expectation. So I applaud Lydia and others who are trying to think this through.

 

But please pay attention to those of us with a bit more of this journey under our belts. It was to get our advice that you came to this board, wasn't it? The reason we feel so strongly about how this decision is made is because the way it is made is almost as important as the decision itself. When the decision is made without all the factors being considered and without the factors being prioritized, then it creates pressure on the children. And it creates a disturbance in the schools because you expect things from the school that they are not able to provide.

 

Jean, I respect your opinion. Absolutely, my daughter's education is very high on the list of our priorities, it ranks right up there next to her happiness and well being. And they all go hand in hand. I cannot speak for the OP but I can give you a glimpse into how I came to my decision to allow my daughter to go to public school. It WAS an issue of socialization. (I'm sure there are homeschooling mothers that cringe when they hear that, probably because we homeschoolers have to hear the question of socialization asked so much.) But the lack of socialization I was able to provide her was indeed affecting her education. My daughter complained all day everyday about how she had to work all day (to her all day was 3 1/2 hours) and she never got to spend time with friends. I spent alot of time and effort trying to set up playdates with friend but nobody is available more than once a week, and more often then not they would cancel on us. I tried many new groups looking for friends for my daughter to no avail. I could see the toll this was taking on my daughter, not having a social outlet, and I took her pleas into consideration. It truly was affecting her education because most of our school time was spent fighting so my husband and I decided that we would give ps a try. I'm still committed to providing her with the education I want her to have but I also need to make sure that she is happy or she won't be retaining any of the material she's being taught. We're only 1 week in to ps and so far so good, she has been happier than I have seen her in a very long time (and I'm really excited about that).

[A.J. at J.A.]

I think first and second grade is too young to know what's best for their education.

 

If you don't feel they are getting a quality education, then pull them and give them one.

 

I hs because I believe it better, so I don't give my children a choice.

 

Might not be a popular opinion, but there it is.

 

 

:iagree:

 

:iagree:

[Joanne]

Jean, I respect your opinion. Absolutely, my daughter's education is very high on the list of our priorities, it ranks right up there next to her happiness and well being. And they all go hand in hand. I cannot speak for the OP but I can give you a glimpse into how I came to my decision to allow my daughter to go to public school. It WAS an issue of socialization. (I'm sure there are homeschooling mothers that cringe when they hear that, probably because we homeschoolers have to hear the question of socialization asked so much.) But the lack of socialization I was able to provide her was indeed affecting her education. My daughter complained all day everyday about how she had to work all day (to her all day was 3 1/2 hours) and she never got to spend time with friends. I spent alot of time and effort trying to set up playdates with friend but nobody is available more than once a week, and more often then not they would cancel on us. I tried many new groups looking for friends for my daughter to no avail. I could see the toll this was taking on my daughter, not having a social outlet, and I took her pleas into consideration. It truly was affecting her education because most of our school time was spent fighting so my husband and I decided that we would give ps a try. I'm still committed to providing her with the education I want her to have but I also need to make sure that she is happy or she won't be retaining any of the material she's being taught. We're only 1 week in to ps and so far so good, she has been happier than I have seen her in a very long time (and I'm really excited about that).

 

I have a child in public school and 2 in a unique school setting that meets 2x a week. I homeschooled for 10 years before this year.

 

The OP let her young boys have influence on a decision that most parents (homeschoolers or not) would not give to children that young. In addition to that, the OP is not happy with the quality of education OR the response of the institution.

 

This is a classical education homeschooling board. You can expect that the answers are going to be encouraging homeschooling and also reasonably expect encouragement about certain roles in the lives of children.

 

I won't comment on YOUR choices since 1) you didn't ask and 2) you seem quite defensive of them since they are so new.

 

But the OP posted on a homeschooling board about a frustration regarding her very young students in a school setting. The responses she's gotten are to be expected for the setting.

 

I don't understand the problem.

[OleanderRain]

I'm not sure what's unclear, but I'll try again. To me, it sounds like the OP is saying her kids went to school because they wanted to. She is now unsatisfied with the results. I'm suggesting that she should make the decision SHE thinks is best for the kids, even if it's not what they want. Meaning, if she thinks homeschooling them would be better, she should do it, even if the kids say they want to go to school.

 

Tara

 

 

Thanks for clarifying. I do agree with you. If she is able to do that.

For whatever reason, the OP stated that she intended on having her children stick it out until Christmas (even if her kids want to come home) which leads me to believe there is another reason for sending her kids to school besides them wanting to go.

[atara]

I haven't read all the posts, but as a former teacher, a teacher is not worried about a student who is doing well in school and is not causing problems. They have too many dc who are struggling and who are discipline problems to worry about a dc who is doing well.

Schools do not cater to students like your dc. Dc like yours are the only students a teacher doesn't have to worry about. They are the kind of dc who just glide along.

 

I am sorry to have to say these thing. We, as parents, think our children are special and deserve to best. Public schools are not there to provide the best for your individual child, but to make sure they are able to do the academics at their grade level. If you dc is already doing academics above grade level, there job is done and they can put their efforts into the dc who are struggling and causing problems.

 

This is why I homeschool. My dc are average, but are working above grade level in particular subects. You don't have to be gifted to work above grade level. "Grade level" is probably about 25% lower than what an average child can do. It's called a "C" average. Also, many students are particularly gifted in one, maybe two, areas. Perhaps you could supplement on the subject you see above average skills or interest.

 

 

 

As a former teacher - I totally agree!!!!

I have had lots of students working above average level, but they were not gifted. Ironically, the gifted kids weren't necessarily the ones with straight A's either. Teachers have to answer for the students falling behind (special resources, paperwork galore, etc.) not the ones working ahead. It's sad, but true.

Edited October 8, 2010 by atara

[OleanderRain]

I have a child in public school and 2 in a unique school setting that meets 2x a week. I homeschooled for 10 years before this year.

 

The OP let her young boys have influence on a decision that most parents (homeschoolers or not) would not give to children that young. In addition to that, the OP is not happy with the quality of education OR the response of the institution.

 

This is a classical education homeschooling board. You can expect that the answers are going to be encouraging homeschooling and also reasonably expect encouragement about certain roles in the lives of children.

This is fine, I would definitely expect people to encourage homeschooling here, in a respectful way.

 

I won't comment on YOUR choices since 1) you didn't ask and 2) you seem quite defensive of them since they are so new.

Thank you. :001_smile: I also did not elaborate on my reasons for sending dd to school. I summarize because I type slow. :lol:

 

But the OP posted on a homeschooling board about a frustration regarding her very young students in a school setting. The responses she's gotten are to be expected for the setting.

 

I don't understand the problem.

I wish I didn't have to EXPECT some of the responses I have seen here. It is perfectly fine to suggest pulling her kids back out and homeschooling them but some people were rude, that's the problem, and like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if Lydia didn't come back.I doubt this is what people want , so I'm just saying it would be better to give advise gently.

Edited October 8, 2010 by OleanderRain

[cathmom]

You also have to remember that many times people respond only to the OP. If more info is given to clarify later in the post, it may not be read.

 

Whenever you describe a situation in your life on these boards, you necessarily leave some info out. Since people don't personally know you, they respond to what you typed, and they respond out of their own personal beliefs or experience. So their posts may have NOTHING that pertains to anything you wanted or expected when you posted. It pays to have thick skin when posting here!

[Haiku]

YOU are the parent, why do YOU let a child decide ANYTHING!

 

I don't think it's that at all. If a kid comes home and says he wants to homeschool and the parent has good reasons not to do it but caves because she feels she must defer to her (very young) child's wishes and not make her own best decision, that's a problem too.

 

If my 16 year old came home and told me she wanted to homeschool, my answer would be a flat no, regardless of what my child said. And I am a huge proponent of homeschooling and no fan of schools (surprising as that may be). ;)

 

Tara

[Spy Car]

 

This is a classical education homeschooling board.

 

One only has to take a look at the header put up by Susan Wise Bauer to see you are misinformed.

 

This is a forum for people who are interested in Classical Education at home, which includes home schoolers and after-schoolers.

 

I don't understand the problem.

 

I do.

 

Bill

[tex-mex]

You also have to remember that many times people respond only to the OP. If more info is given to clarify later in the post, it may not be read.

 

Whenever you describe a situation in your life on these boards, you necessarily leave some info out. Since people don't personally know you, they respond to what you typed, and they respond out of their own personal beliefs or experience. So their posts may have NOTHING that pertains to anything you wanted or expected when you posted. It pays to have thick skin when posting here!

:iagree: I think some are internalizing the struggles of the OP as being too close to home for their decisions -- and unbeknownest to the hive's bluntness once a post is unleashed -- our reactions are being TOO personalized to her (OlenanderRain)? I don't think anyone here is bashing public schools. But many here are reacting to the OP's allowing such young children (1st & 2nd grades) to tell their parent what they want to do regarding their education.

 

-----------------

ETA: Yes, this thread is active and has a life of its own. Yikes.

Edited October 8, 2010 by tex-mex

[Amy loves Bud]

Lydia,

 

I just want to tell you that I'm here! My son is in PS for the first time this year. It's definitely a different animal than homeschooling in every possible way!

 

I'd like to, gently, make two points.

 

1. A public school is not a place to expect an individualized education. Teachers have a lot of students to whom they have to transmit a very specific body of knowledge in a limited amount of time. They can't be expected to come up with individualized plans for all the students. That is not what the public education system is all about. Does it happen sometimes? Yes (Thank you, Mrs. Henson, for your one on one teaching during my senior year so that I could study math beyond what our school offered), occasionally, but it's not the norm and can't be expected. Do I wish they would provide an invidividualized plan for my son? Yes. Am I holding my breath? No way.

 

What I am doing is looking at places I think the school is lacking and figuring out how to supplement without adding a huge amount to the load. For my son, in 6th grade. It's English. From what I can tell so far, it's all literary analysis and no grammar, with very little writing. :banghead: So, we will be doing a little writing and grammar at home. Maybe you can do the same thing - do math games as a family, read great literature, etc. Find areas you feel the school is lacking and add some meat in. As young as your son is, you can do fun things that don't even feel like school, so he won't think you are overloading him.

 

2. Gifted is a different animal than just the ability to make good grades. Luke is excelling in school. He's got mainly 100 averages in his classes. But that's because he's a normal, smart, hard-working kid. He's not really a think-out-of-the-box kind of kid, and from what I understand that's what they look for. So he won't be testing for the GT program here. I'd rather him pursue other interests like guitar and soccer and get to read whatever he wants. Try not to look at not being classified as gifted as a negative thing. It's a small portion of the population and, if you search the board a bit, you'll find it's associated with it's own set of issues.

 

Hugs to you. I know it's difficult.

[Tea Time]

[Reaction on forum]

 

Woo Hoo!!!

 

:party: :party: :party:

 

 

 

[Reaction on forum]

 

YOU are the parent, why do YOU let a child decide ANYTHING!

 

The level of discourtesy and hypocrisy is saddening, but not unpredictable.

 

Props to you OleanderRain.

 

Sheez.

 

Bill

 

You oversimplify the situation. To someone who is looking at this from a homeschooling lens, the two options are not mathematical equivalents that deserve equal treatment. That is your lens. Consider this scenario:

 

DS comes home saying he has decided not to try drugs.

 

Board responds:

 

Woo Hoo!!!

 

:party: :party: :party:

 

Child comes home and says he wants to try drugs.

 

Board responds:

 

YOU are the parent, why do YOU let a child decide ANYTHING!

 

This is not discourteous or hypocritical. It is logical and reasonable. Many people seriously underestimate how strongly other people feel about the perils of public education, how completely unacceptable they consider that alternative. You may not agree with that, but they are every bit as entitled to hold that opinion as you do yours.

 

Jean, I respect your opinion. Absolutely, my daughter's education is very high on the list of our priorities, it ranks right up there next to her happiness and well being. And they all go hand in hand. I cannot speak for the OP but I can give you a glimpse into how I came to my decision to allow my daughter to go to public school. It WAS an issue of socialization. (I'm sure there are homeschooling mothers that cringe when they hear that, probably because we homeschoolers have to hear the question of socialization asked so much.) But the lack of socialization I was able to provide her was indeed affecting her education. My daughter complained all day everyday about how she had to work all day (to her all day was 3 1/2 hours) and she never got to spend time with friends. I spent alot of time and effort trying to set up playdates with friend but nobody is available more than once a week, and more often then not they would cancel on us. I tried many new groups looking for friends for my daughter to no avail. I could see the toll this was taking on my daughter, not having a social outlet, and I took her pleas into consideration. It truly was affecting her education because most of our school time was spent fighting so my husband and I decided that we would give ps a try. I'm still committed to providing her with the education I want her to have but I also need to make sure that she is happy or she won't be retaining any of the material she's being taught. We're only 1 week in to ps and so far so good, she has been happier than I have seen her in a very long time (and I'm really excited about that).

 

You do not own anyone any explanation. But you should let go of your idea that people are being "rude" because they do not agree with it. It is not rude to hold or express opposing opinions. It is just a part of life and learning to communicate better will never completely fix the underlying issue that people just hold different views. We all have to learn to accept that.

 

One only has to take a look at the header put up by Susan Wise Bauer to see you are misinformed.

 

This is a forum for people who are interested in Classical Education at home, which includes home schoolers and after-schoolers.

 

 

 

I do.

 

Bill

 

Mostly it has become a forum for people who are not at all interested in Classical Education and many who in fact seem downright opposed to it. A lot of the time homeschoolers here now have to defend both homeschooling itself and study of the classics. Fear of "bashing public schools" has caused a lot of chilled speech around here. It gets old.

[Spy Car]

Mostly it has become a forum for people who are not at all interested in Classical Education and many who in fact seem downright opposed to it. A lot of the time homeschoolers here now have to defend both homeschooling itself and study of the classics. Fear of "bashing public schools" has caused a lot of chilled speech around here. It gets old.

 

Equating attending public school with taking drugs is the kind of commentary that leads to a chilled and hostile atmosphere. The bashing of public schools and parents that choose that option for their children's education is what gets old.

 

I'd be the first to admit there are many problems with many public schools, some of which deserve the title "failure factories." I very well understand the frustrations of parents whose public school options are bad ones, and why they would feel the need to "vent."

 

But there are some pretty terrible home schools too. Along with some pretty highly functioning schools. Bashing people for the failure of bad schools or bad home schools is not really helpful, kind, or enlightening.

 

Bill

Edited October 8, 2010 by Spy Car

[Amy loves Bud]

Fear of "bashing public schools" has caused a lot of chilled speech around here.

 

Really? Because I think the cause of chilled speech is the assumption on the part of some that everyone shares their worldview.

 

I sent my kids to ps for the first time this year and got a lot of support and kind comments from many here who I know would never darken the door of the public school system. But they somehow managed to encourage me for trying to be the best mom I can be and for seeking out the best educational situation for my children, even though the choices I made would not ever be on the table for their family.

 

So it is somehow possible to have reasonable, honest conversations about *all* forms of education without resorting to suggesting that those who don't make the same educational choices you do are similar to those who allow their children to do drugs.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Amy loves Bud

[Haiku]

suggesting that those who don't make the same educational choices you do are similar to those who allow their children to do drugs.

 

I have a child in public school and I didn't get this at all. The poster wasn't, imo, equating school use with drug use. She was pointing out examples of situations where people hold strong opinions.

 

Tara

[Amy loves Bud]

I have a child in public school and I didn't get this at all. The poster wasn't, imo, equating school use with drug use. She was pointing out examples of situations where people hold strong opinions.

 

Tara

 

 

 

I think she made it very clear that that is exactly what she meant:

 

This is not discourteous or hypocritical. It is logical and reasonable. Many people seriously underestimate how strongly other people feel about the perils of public education, how completely unacceptable they consider that alternative.

 

 

As she noted, she is entitled to hold that opinion. And if I misread and it's not her opinion, then perhaps she should consider her words more carefully if she doesn't want the conversation chilled.

[Tea Time]

I did not say that I think sending your children to public school was the same thing as them doing drugs. I did not say anything about what I think. My opinion is not really important. So that is not what I was suggesting, although if you did not understand what I was saying, or if you want to turn the conversation around then you might take it that way. I was simply pointing out that the logic Spy Car used to make his statement about how "discourteous and hypocritical" other people were being was not a good comparison. Either you will see that or not. Read it again and try to follow me, please. Let me try to clarify a little here, too.

 

For some people, because of their own study of the issue and perhaps their own personal experience, public education and homeschooling are not equal choices like vanilla or chocolate ice cream. They cannot, in good conscience, treat them as such. That does not make those people discourteous or hypocritical or illogical. You do not need to agree with them about their view of school, but to characterize them as those things is inaccurate and unfair.

 

People, we really need to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree with our idea of things; and their disagreeing, even in strong and forceful (although not violent) ways, does not make them rude.

 

We can try our best to improve our way of communicating, but it will not solve all the problems. It is painful to agonize over our choices and still see that others think we are wrong. But who does not suffer from that in some way? I can think of no one. We have to get a strong backbone if we are really going to look for answers, and we have to keep talking and not let others guilt us or intimidate us into silence or guilt others into silence. We also have to be very willing to figure out that we might be wrong. And we have to be understanding when we know darn well someone else is wrong. And, the way I see it, that works for everyone over every topic.

 

The OP is facing much the same issue that faces us all where education is concerned. We can try to solve it on the giant scale, but for HER and for many of us, we really can't wait for that. We have to solve it for ourselves. Here and now. The more creatively we figure out how to do that, the better. This forum is for doing that, and I, for one, empower her and everyone else to not wait around for someone too fix the problem and fix it herself. I'm pretty confident by her post that she is going to do just that. Feeling awful and uncomfortable is often the first step. Lord knows it was for me! I've be prodded by pain many times, and although I don't relish it, it has often been for the best.

[TKDmom]

The OP is facing much the same issue that faces us all where education is concerned. We can try to solve it on the giant scale, but for HER and for many of us, we really can't wait for that. We have to solve it for ourselves. Here and now. The more creatively we figure out how to do that, the better. This forum is for doing that, and I, for one, empower her and everyone else to not wait around for someone too fix the problem and fix it herself. I'm pretty confident by her post that she is going to do just that. Feeling awful and uncomfortable is often the first step. Lord knows it was for me! I've be prodded by pain many times, and although I don't relish it, it has often been for the best.

 

That was very well said. Thank you. And thank you for the clarification of what you said earlier.

[NorthwestMom]

I'm with Bill on the Board's reaction to this poster.

 

OP, I had a gifted child in public school for K and 1st and it went exactly as you are describing. The teachers could not admit the obvious. By the time he tested into the full-time gifted program, he hated school and did not want to give it a chance. Negative behaviors escalated and we brought him home. He has thrived at home, where he can work at a variety of grade levels. He is given the choice to return to school every year and declines it every year. Let the flaming begin! :tongue_smilie:

 

As a former teacher myself, I agree that it is close to impossible for teachers to customize their curriculum for a child who is ahead; they are under much greater pressure to reach those that are behind. I support you in giving your children a voice in the decision of choosing a schooling option that will work the best for them. :grouphug:

[Tea Time]

As she noted, she is entitled to hold that opinion. And if I misread and it's not her opinion, then perhaps she should consider her words more carefully if she doesn't want the conversation chilled.

 

Amy, I hope that my other post clarifies things for you a bit. I considered my words very carefully, and I predicted that they would get this reaction. But slow down a bit and don't assume the worst of me. Perhaps there is a little there to be considered.

 

This board is about education; and although I think it is too little about classical education anymore, I still hold out hope that it is about solving educational problems on the small scale. By that I mean that I still hope people come here to become involved in solving educational problems (or avoiding them) for their own kids and kids that they are close to. It encourages me when the parent of a child in the early grades picks up on problems that must be addressed. I feel that people can rescue their own kids in many different ways, but those people on this board who feel strongly about homeschooling and encourage homeschooling should be respected and not called "discourteous and hypocritical."

[HS Mom in NC]

Homeschoolers are a huge range of people with different beliefs, motivations, and philosophies. When you ask them a question, you will get a response that may come from a dramatically different point of view than you hold because of it. Be prepared for the fact that is may conflict with yours..and that's OK. Take what is helpful and ignore the rest. Never ask a question you don't want to know the answer to and remember that no one can make you feel anything unless you choose to let them.

 

 

Here is a primer on the differences:

 

==Three Homeschooling Mind Sets==

All three are present in today's homeschool community.

 

===Pioneers (First Wave of Homeschoolers)===

In the early 1980s before the public schools were generally viewed as performing poorly and safety was not generally an issue, two groups of people emerged creating the modern homeschooling movement.

 

The first were largely Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians who wanted what they called a “Christ Centered Educationâ€. Their goal was integrate family relationships, life skills, academics, and religious training in equal proportions into the education of their children. They believed that God had a particular plan for each child’s life, and it was the job of the parent to educate and train their children as individuals for that purpose.

 

Meanwhile a secular group of parents, many inspired by John Holt’s writings, decided that keeping their children at home and customizing a education to suit their particular talents and interests emerged. They believed that real life and academics should be integrated to give a greater understanding of the world, and nurturing the self-motivation required for future success.

 

Both groups had different motivations, but some of their methodology was very similar. They practice tutorial style education with the flexibility that comes with customization. Apprenticeships, life experiences, and high quality academics are common between them. Neither group likes the standard scope and sequence approach that is characteristic of institutional settings.

 

In general they share the conviction that institutional settings are bad for children, so of course, homeschooling is the only acceptable option for educating a child.

 

These two groups were primarily responsible for the court battles necessary to make homeschooling a legally recognized option in each state. They currently fight to deregulate homeschooling nationwide.

 

 

===Settlers (Second Wave Homeschoolers)===

In the early 1990s several studies on academic performance revealed that homeschoolers were outperforming institutionalized children in both the public and private sectors. A group of parents took notice because academic performance was their number one priority. They began homeschooling their children and enjoyed the flexible lifestyle.

 

The do not have convictions that institutional settings are categorically bad for children, and many can afford private/religious education, but their children are thriving in the homeschooling environment. This group has a large mix of very religious and non-religious people, and everyone in between.

 

Settlers are primarily responsible for taking homeschooling into the mainstream.

 

 

===Refugees (Third Wave Homeschoolers)===

By the late 1990s and after the turn of the new millennium public schools were getting bad press- specifically about negative social issues and poor academic performance. The floodgates of homeschooling opened and a new group of parents poured into the homeschool community.

 

They are fleeing. They do not like the charter schools and can not afford a private/religious institutional setting, so they decide to homeschool until they can afford private schools or until the public schools are seriously overhauled.

 

The are primarily responsible for the current school choice debates.

[6packofun]

I agree. Sorry, a first and second grader's reasoning never trumps mom and dad's decisions for their education. LOL

[Spy Car]

I considered my words very carefully, and I predicted that they would get this reaction.

 

That admission pretty much says it all.

 

Bill

[Kate CA]

I did not say that I think sending your children to public school was the same thing as them doing drugs. I did not say anything about what I think. My opinion is not really important. So that is not what I was suggesting, although if you did not understand what I was saying, or if you want to turn the conversation around then you might take it that way. I was simply pointing out that the logic Spy Car used to make his statement about how "discourteous and hypocritical" other people were being was not a good comparison. Either you will see that or not. Read it again and try to follow me, please. Let me try to clarify a little here, too.

 

For some people, because of their own study of the issue and perhaps their own personal experience, public education and homeschooling are not equal choices like vanilla or chocolate ice cream. They cannot, in good conscience, treat them as such. That does not make those people discourteous or hypocritical or illogical. You do not need to agree with them about their view of school, but to characterize them as those things is inaccurate and unfair.

 

People, we really need to learn to accept that not everyone is going to agree with our idea of things; and their disagreeing, even in strong and forceful (although not violent) ways, does not make them rude.

 

We can try our best to improve our way of communicating, but it will not solve all the problems. It is painful to agonize over our choices and still see that others think we are wrong. But who does not suffer from that in some way? I can think of no one. We have to get a strong backbone if we are really going to look for answers, and we have to keep talking and not let others guilt us or intimidate us into silence or guilt others into silence. We also have to be very willing to figure out that we might be wrong. And we have to be understanding when we know darn well someone else is wrong. And, the way I see it, that works for everyone over every topic.

 

The OP is facing much the same issue that faces us all where education is concerned. We can try to solve it on the giant scale, but for HER and for many of us, we really can't wait for that. We have to solve it for ourselves. Here and now. The more creatively we figure out how to do that, the better. This forum is for doing that, and I, for one, empower her and everyone else to not wait around for someone too fix the problem and fix it herself. I'm pretty confident by her post that she is going to do just that. Feeling awful and uncomfortable is often the first step. Lord knows it was for me! I've be prodded by pain many times, and although I don't relish it, it has often been for the best.

 

Great post. FWIW I understood what you were saying about unequal comparisons and did not think you were equating drug use with the choice to use the public schools.

 

There are many folks on this board who speak in the strongest of terms on a regular basis. This thread is actually pretty tame in comparison with some others I have read. LOL

[justasque]

Taking it back to the original question:

 

You cannot expect your dc to get a custom curriculum in public school. It's just not the way they do things; they're not set up for it.

 

I am a crafter. Sometimes, I like to buy all the different pieces I might need, often in bulk even though I'll have leftovers, because it gives me the ability to come up with my own variations on the craft. Sometimes, I like to just buy the kit, even though it's kind of generic and doesn't really require my creativity to add that personal touch, because it gets the job done with minimal fuss. School is like that. Sometimes you want a la carte custom-made, and sometimes it's nice when you get the package deal where the big yellow bus picks them up and drops them off and you don't have to get involved all that much beyond sending in brownies for the holiday party. It all depends on what else is going on in your life, how good a fit the generic version is for your dc, and so on. Only you can decide where the pros and cons fall out.

 

I wonder if it would help if you could observe a day at school? I did this once, and it was very helpful. Knowing about the day's routine, the kids in the class, etc. helped me to ask questions at home that helped my dc communicate more about the day. It also helped me see the good areas and those that might be problematic. And it gave me a sense of what the teacher was facing and what she was trying to achieve, which helped me to be able to work with the teacher on my ds' behalf. (Teachers vary widely. Some are more comfortable than others with differentiated instruction.)

 

Has your son been more specific about his boredom? Do you have a sense of what he expected from school, and how that has meshed with the reality for him? Are there parts of homeschooling that he is missing, and if so are they things you can focus on at weekends and evenings? For example, if he liked read-alouds, you could make sure you make time for them.

 

What I'm getting from your conversation with the supplemental education teacher is that she feels that, although his is ahead in some areas, he could use more work in others, so his current situation is OK. A couple of thoughts:

 

--In homeschool, we know what our dc are learning because we watch them work and discuss it with them. In school, if you can't write it down and hand it in, it's as if you don't know it at all. So it may be that your ds is great learning-wise academically, but needs to catch up on the "school skills", which are boring but necessary to function in a school setting.

 

--Also, there is likely to be some overlap, as well as some gaps, between the school's curriculum and your hs curriculum. For example, some hs math materials are all about calculation, and are based on or at least similar to texts from a time when most kids didn't get past 8th grade, wheras often in ps the math materials are gradually laying groundwork for subjects like algebra and geometry, so the "why" of things is important, not just the ability to calculate.

 

--Now that said, holes in your ds's learning are neither here nor there when deciding if he qualifies as gifted. Gifted is not so much about what you know as about how you learn. You can have considerable gaps and still be gifted. Simply discussing it with the supplemental education teacher is not enough; if you feel he is gifted then you should ask, in writing, for him to be tested. However, before going down this path, I would get the scoop from local moms with gifted kids to understand the kinds of things that such a label might or might not get him. I would also do some research on "gifted" - Hoagie's page is useful (google it) - to see if the descriptions match your observations of your son.

 

--As for possibly being "average" - don't assume this is bad! Every "average" kid has talents and interests and strengths and passions. Nothing wrong with being "average". Do not assume the teacher was being critical of your son or of your past homeschooling! Do not take her remark personally. She was just saying whether or not she felt there was evidence for giftedness (and if she was basing it on knowledge, she might have been taking the wrong approach).

 

It sounds like you have mixed feelings about having the boys in school, and it sounds like there are complex reasons for them being there. Only you and your dh can decide where is best for them, and it may change over time. It sounds like you need more information - about what they are and are not doing in school, about what options you have for differential instruction and afterschooling. Take a deep breath, and keep the big picture in mind. Kids can get a good education in a variety of settings - by asking these questions and considering options you are doing the right thing.

 

Talk more with your son, listen, get a sense of what they're doing in the classroom, talk to the teacher regularly about the goals for various assignments. (Sometimes, for example, what looks like a lame science assignment is really a non-fiction reading/writing exercise dressed up as science, where the scientific content isn't the main educational focus.)

If your son isn't actually asking to come home, he may be doing just fine.

 

Some of what I've said may not be right for your situation, You have to make a lot of assumptions when attempting to solve someone's problems based on a brief paragraph about them. Bottom line -take what you like and leave the rest. Only you and your hubby know what's best for your kids.

[Tea Time]

That admission pretty much says it all.

 

Bill

 

Come on Bill. Address the important parts of my post.

 

Do you really think it is okay to suggest that people who vehemently oppose public education and strongly support homeschooling are all "discourteous and hypocritical" just because they clearly and honestly, and possibly even bluntly, express those views? Is expressing one's firmly held beliefs always "rude"? Is it unacceptable on an educational board to criticize an educational system that uses public funds? Does it chill speech to express those criticisms or does criticizing people who express a point of view by calling them "discourteous," "hypocrites," and "rude" chill speech? There is a world of difference between arguing against the merits of a person's claims and simply sending them on a guilt trip by saying they are unkind if those claims do not agree with yours.

 

I do apologize for side tracking the thread somewhat, but these ideas are very important for civil discourse, not just in this thread but in pretty much any thread on these boards.

[Amy loves Bud]

Amy, I hope that my other post clarifies things for you a bit. I considered my words very carefully, and I predicted that they would get this reaction.

 

I don't know what the "worst" is, but now I know you intentionally chose a comparison designed to provoke. The comparison could have been made to so many controversial topics - vaccination, vegetarianism, circumcision, Santa Claus - topics on which intelligent, loving parent vehemently disagree. But instead you chose to compare school choice to a topic that no intelligent, loving parent could do other than agree with your viewpoint.

 

I agree with much of what you are saying. Further, I have no issue with the fact that most people on this board prefer homeschooling and there are many who think public schools are so bad that they would never choose them for their child. And I agree that they should be able to say so.

 

But if the purpose of this board is to "solve educational problems on the small scale" then maybe we should be applauding the parent who chooses the best options available to them to educate their child, rather than comparing some options to the choice to use drugs and while other options equal avoiding drugs.

[Tea Time]

I don't know what the "worst" is, but now I know you intentionally chose a comparison designed to provoke. The comparison could have been made to so many controversial topics - vaccination, vegetarianism, circumcision, Santa Claus - topics on which intelligent, loving parent vehemently disagree. But instead you chose to compare school choice to a topic that no intelligent, loving parent could do other than agree with your viewpoint.

 

Predicting and provoking are two different things. I predicted that the argument would be misunderstood, perhaps intentionally. Again, this line of reasoning against me is designed to discredit my argument by inferring that I was not being nice.

 

I agree with much of what you are saying. Further, I have no issue with the fact that most people on this board prefer homeschooling and there are many who think public schools are so bad that they would never choose them for their child. And I agree that they should be able to say so.

 

But if the purpose of this board is to "solve educational problems on the small scale" then maybe we should be applauding the parent who chooses the best options available to them to educate their child, rather than comparing some options to the choice to use drugs and while other options equal avoiding drugs.

 

Yes, and I did, as did plenty of others on this thread. Personally, I withheld any response to the OP because it seems to me she is well on her own way to figuring things out. I totally applaud her for that, and I said so! I think we all recognize how agonizing the situations is, how desperately parents are trying to do what is best for their children - we have been there. But if public education is actually having a vast negative effect on our children, something that I think shows up in the OP (on the small scale), then saying so is a moral imperative it is not "discourteous," "rude," or "hypocritical." The fact is that we don't even get to make that argument anymore on this board or give reasons for our convictions because that isn't being "nice."

 

Feelings matter. I am very aware of the vast population that is deeply invested in the existing system on every level. We can and should try to protect them, but not at the expense of understanding really important problems and protecting our children and our freedom.

 

When is an apology going to be made to the passionate home schoolers on this thread who stated their case and were reprimanded for being "rude" and called "discourteous and hypocritical"? Was that being "nice"? I won't hold my breath for a response to that question or any of my others.

[Amy loves Bud]

Predicting and provoking are two different things. I predicted that the argument would be misunderstood, perhaps intentionally.

 

 

You made a statement you knew would be interepreted this way and then wondered why conversation is chilled around here. That's all I'm saying.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Amy loves Bud
Arguing is growing tiresome.

[Kate CA]

I can't answer that question, as I never said any of those things. In fact, In my above post I defended their (and my) right be passionate about their homeschooling choice. In the same way they are passionate about their vaccinating, circumcising, blah blah blah choices. You are the one who suggested that those who send their children to public school are, well you know what you compared them to. I won't wait for an apology either.

 

Gently, she didn't say this. I think you are choosing to apply your meaning to her words. That isn't what she meant and she has clarified it multiple times. You either take her at her word or you don't, but you don't get to change her own declared meaning, Amy.

[Amy loves Bud]

Gently, she didn't say this. I think you are choosing to apply your meaning to her words. That isn't what she meant and she has clarified it multiple times. You either take her at her word or you don't, but you don't get to change her own declared meaning, Amy.

 

I edited my post, Kate. She predicted what she was saying would chill conversation yet wonders why conversation is chilled around here. That confuses me.

[Tea Time]

I do not want you to be confused, Amy, and I will stay with this until it is clear to you if you would like. I don't mind a bit. The points are subtle, and the subject matter is emotional. But on this board there should be open debate about all things "school," so the idea of chilling speech should be spoken about, don't you agree?

 

You made a statement you knew would be interepreted this way and then wondered why conversation is chilled around here. That's all I'm saying.

 

I predicted some people would misinterpret it, perhaps intentionally. I did not think it would chill speech. That never is my intention.

 

Not everyone misunderstood it, and while I have enough experience to know that it tends to happen, I can't be sure, nor am I responsible if it does. It is a mistaken interpretation. Someone might have to work to get my meaning, I guess. If they really want to know it.

 

But I'll try again. I made a comparison, not about public education itself, but about someone else's comparison. A bit tricky, I admit, but not altogether impossible to follow. Easy enough to turn around and misuse against me too though, you see? I don't have any idea if you are doing that on purpose or because you are truly confused. That is unclear to me.

 

I don't think it chills speech to make a claim, even firmly or agressively. Often that kind of speech "provokes" a reaction as people work to legitimately defend a legitimate attack. If I make a claim that is erroneous, then people should step forward to make corrections to the claim. That is healthy discourse. I welcome that kind of response!

 

But often what we get instead that does chill speech is something different. It is a criticism of the person for not being "nice" or something that otherwise assaults the character of the person making the argument and discredits the claim, not by a counter argument, but by discrediting the person. That is not, in my mind, a legitimate counter argument to a claim. Therefore it is chilling speech because people do not want to be torn to shreds on a public forum or thought to be rude or anything like that. Socially it is simply too painful to endure. It happens all the time, everywhere.

 

I guess I have to repeat the question:

 

Does it chill speech to express those criticisms or does criticizing people who express a point of view by calling them "discourteous," "hypocrites," and "rude" chill speech? There is a world of difference between arguing against the merits of a person's claims and simply sending them on a guilt trip by saying they are unkind if those claims do not agree with yours.

 

If I had made it (I did not), we could discuss the claim that public education is tantamount to allowing children to choose drugs. You should certainly attack such a claim, but not simply by calling me "mean" for saying it or otherwise forbidding me for making such a claim because it is too harsh. Tell me what is wrong with the claim! Why is it nonsense? How is it patently false on all levels?

 

Because if there is the least bit of truth to it, then you would want to know that, right?

 

That is dedication to the truth.

 

I prefer a lower level of harshness in debate, but, again, not at the expense of getting to the bottom of problems or protecting children.