Learning to read Whole Language vs Phonics...

[hsmom]

Or is there a way to combine both to get a more effective way of learning?

 

My son has been at the same phase for 2 years now. I keep waiting for that take off moment and it is just not coming. He can sound out tons of words, yet doesn't remember any of them after reading them. He can sound them out to spell or read.

 

He remembers the words the, to, cat, on, will. As of now that is it. The rest he sounds out every time he reads. No matter how many times he sees the word he still sounds it out. He will sound out a whole sentence then read the sentence to you. But if you have him do it again it is back to sounding it out.

 

So, my reason for asking about the whole language approach is do you think having him see the words as a whole more and less sounding out would work?

 

We are having a hard time jumping from phonics readers (the ones with our program) to actual books.

 

Thank you for any help.

[Snowfall]

If he's still only 6 (I looked at your sig) I think that's totally normal, no matter how early he started. However, since it sounds like he knows phonics I don't think it would hurt anything to do some flashcards with high frequency words on them. That's what Spell to Write and Read does. They learn the phonograms, spell words, then practice reading those words on flashcards. Maybe not the most fun, but I've heard it works.

[Kates]

Reading is an abstract process - he's only 6, this is completely normal. Promise! Reading with comprehension tends to come a bit slower for boys, it involves transferring written code into a picture in their heads, and then hooking all those pictures together. If he's still at that spot at 8 1/2 or 9, then I'd start to think about remediation.

 

Right now, just read to and with him - lots. Let him listen to audiobooks, read to him a few times each day, have snuggle up on the couch time where he watches you read for a few minutes. Let him be active if he needs to (this actually stimulates the thinking/comprehension process for many boys, especially at that age) and praise him whenever he starts asking questions about it or telling you about a story.

 

It'll come, I promise - just a little later, most likely :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

Totally agreeing with the others. My last ds didn't take off with reading until 7.5 and then he flew! Early doesn't always mean much. Give his brain a chance to catch up and process all those phonics he knows. Just keep working at plugging along.

[Mama2two]

My 6 year old son is the same way. figure it will come with time and lots of practice

[ElizabethB]

I would try some more spelling, and more fun practice of phonics with games and such. I've found that my students, on average, learn as much from reading 10 words as spelling 1. (For example, reading 10 CVCE words confers the same benefit as spelling 1 CVCE word.)

 

You could also add in some syllable division and/or work with Webster's Speller for variety and to work on some slightly different skills while still covering phonics.

[peacefully]

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[keptwoman]

I agree with the others. Also I think that whole word is just presenting a word a bunch of times until they know it immediately by sight. Every kid that learns phonetically still has to learn in the end to know the word by sight, otherwise they'd never read with fluency. Given you keep presenting them and he keeps sounding them out, then it sounds like he is not ready to know them by sight.

 

I have BTDT with my DD and I really went through periods of major panic, but it suddenly came together about 4 or 5 months ago, and she knows heaps of words now. I thought we were never going to get beyond CVC words.

[SailorMom]

I'll take the opposite position here....

I am completely anti-phonics. There are more exceptions than rules, and the English language just doesn't lend itself to phonics. I am an advanced, extremely fast reader - and never could understand phonics at all. All of the people I know who learned phonics are slow readers - at least those who still sound words out as they read. I truly beileve the only proficient way to read is by memorizing the shapes of all words.

Both of my DS's learned using whole language and are superb readers. My dylexic could never have learned phonics anyway, but my older DS could have gone either way. Whole word just worked so much better for him.

I say try it - see how it goes, and keep phonics in mind as a backup for a while.

[peacefully]

.

[Ellie]

ITA also: he's just 6. I would expect him to have a "hard time" going from vocabulary-controlled basal readers to trade books (books you'd find at the library or a book store, the opposite of readers).

 

I can't tell if you're doing any systematic teaching of phonics or not, but if not, that would be the better way to go.

 

English actually is over 90% phonetic, and the few words which aren't completely phonetic are *mostly* phonetic. The U.S. had quite a high level of literacy until sight reading was introduced, and the literacy level has continued to drop ever since. You might find this book interesting: Why Johnny Still Can't Read. The author explains what sight-reading really is, and why it has always proven to be less effective than phonics.

[Devotional Soul]

I don't know which is better, but here's a list of easy readers that you can check out from the library (thanks to another mom here who I copied this from and saved on my blog):

 

http://souladventureschool.blogspot.com/2010/09/beginner-book-list.html

 

My ds has gained more reading skills with library books since they seem like 'real books' and not part of school. Also check the library for word family activity books. We did McRuffy K and then 1st, but it started going too fast for him. We're still practicing and reviewing long vowels with ETC now and Primary Phonics next. I tried some word family practice, and my ds did not retain it, so I am sticking with phonics. It's all about finding what's right for your dc, plus a little patience. ;)

[sagira]

Why not to both? Give the reader more word attack skills, as a previous poster mentioned.

[fhjmom]

I don't know the answer but I am about to embark on the experiment with my DD-6. We have been doing Saxon Phonics and she is in the level 2 book now, but she still sounds out even the simplest of words very slowly. She knows all the rules and likes phonics, she just has a very hard time making the connection between the group of phonemes and the words she knows orally because the sounds don't match the way *she* hears the word (she doesn't hear high frequency sounds like /s/, /f/, /th/, etc.). So she can sound out a word perfectly but it still has no meaning for her.

 

There is a reading program developed for children that are deaf/hard-of-hearing that uses the whole language approach. The school district has ordered it for us and I am hoping that the combination will help improve her reading. I am not giving up on phonics because I do think it is especially important for her to be able to read a word and understand its correct pronunciation since she cannot hear all the sounds reliably all the time; it is just working backwards for her than for most students. :)

[Tiberia]

I've been using Rod and Staff 1st Grade Reading with workbook, which is more sight based, plus Rod and Staff Phonics, which is thorough phonics. We've been working through these for about a year, both approaches in the same curriculum.

 

DD6, almost 7, just started reading independently this week! We've been waiting and waiting for this, and it seemed it would never come, but when she was ready, she really took off. She's racing through all the Henry and Mudge books, and Amelia Bedelia. She wants to try Magic Tree House books next.

 

So, keep on teaching. It will happen. I fully believe in phonics, but I think my DD learns best with whole language, so we'll keep doing them both.

[MerryAtHope]

I was at the same place when my son was 6.5, and I tried a sight word method for one month. That one month did so much damage--it took 6 months to get him to STOP guessing at words after that, and there are still lingering affects (when he encounters a new word, his first strategy is still to guess based on the first letters or last letters or some combo of the two. He sees that this strategy isn't helping him, and will go to other strategies as soon as he realizes he has lapsed into guessing.).

 

Those who do sight-read effectively often hit a wall around 3rd or 4th grade because there are too many words to learn.

 

Shape-reading can also cause problems for people. Consider house and horse--same shape, and the only letter that is different between the two is the middle letter.

 

I agree with the others--give this some more time. It will come!

 

Merry :-)

[siloam]

I was at the same place when my son was 6.5, and I tried a sight word method for one month. That one month did so much damage--it took 6 months to get him to STOP guessing at words after that, and there are still lingering affects (when he encounters a new word, his first strategy is still to guess based on the first letters or last letters or some combo of the two. He sees that this strategy isn't helping him, and will go to other strategies as soon as he realizes he has lapsed into guessing.).

 

Those who do sight-read effectively often hit a wall around 3rd or 4th grade because there are too many words to learn.

 

Shape-reading can also cause problems for people. Consider house and horse--same shape, and the only letter that is different between the two is the middle letter.

 

I agree with the others--give this some more time. It will come!

 

Merry :-)

 

 

What Merry said. I still have problems with guessing, myself. Phonics, only phonics and nothing but phonics here.

 

BTW I have 3 late readers, two which have caught up and passed grade level, and one that is still learning. Phonics only may take longer, but it works.

 

Heather

[Shifra]

I just finished reading Put Reading First: The Research Building Blocks for Teaching Children to Read Kindergarten through Grade 3. It is published by the National Institute for Literacy (under the U.S. Department of Education). You can download this volume. It presents the most effective ways of teaching reading, which includes systematic phonics instruction. Usually the Whole Language approach does not teach phonics systematically; rather it teaches phonics in context, which is not effective.

[Spy Car]

Or is there a way to combine both to get a more effective way of learning?

 

My son has been at the same phase for 2 years now. I keep waiting for that take off moment and it is just not coming. He can sound out tons of words, yet doesn't remember any of them after reading them. He can sound them out to spell or read.

 

He remembers the words the, to, cat, on, will. As of now that is it. The rest he sounds out every time he reads. No matter how many times he sees the word he still sounds it out. He will sound out a whole sentence then read the sentence to you. But if you have him do it again it is back to sounding it out.

 

So, my reason for asking about the whole language approach is do you think having him see the words as a whole more and less sounding out would work?

 

We are having a hard time jumping from phonics readers (the ones with our program) to actual books.

 

Thank you for any help.

 

A very small suggestion from a non-expert. Rather than dumping a phonic approach, I suggest that when you sit down with your son to read a (phonically appropriate) reader that you patiently let him sound it out (while playing mental tricks on yourself that these are "magical" moments :D) and then, you re-read the sentence or short section with your best reading voice and full inflection.

 

Then he re-reads the section himself. This way he gets some fluency and sight reading experience, but in the context of working through the phonics.

 

Bill

Edited October 8, 2010 by Spy Car

[PollyOR]

I'm going to suggest taking a look at Mark Thogmartin's Teach a Child to Read with Children's Books. It has been a long time, but I think one thing he suggests is using predictable books. These type of books have worked well for my kids. We enjoy reading Each Peach Pear Plum, Brown Bear, Brown Bear, I Went Walking, A Dark, Dark Tale, etc.

[FairProspects]

Thank you all! I really needed this thread today since it is one of those days where I'm sure ds will never truly read!! We just cannot get past CVC words and it has been something like 18 months and I am throughly frustrated!! It is encouraging to hear that it will eventually happen, because right now I feel like the worst reading teacher ever!!

[bbrandonsmom]

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207420

 

I'm going to suggest reading through that, as well as maybe pick up a copy of Phonics Pathways from the library if possible. PP starts out with cvc words and sentences and then once fluent, progresses to more letters added. It's phonetic. It doesn't explain the rules as well as some other programs, but it works.

 

I can see how a phonetic approach may take longer for reading, but the kids are learning a lot, as far as spelling and understanding the words. Comprehension comes different for kids too.

 

I think my generation grew up sight word learning, and I'm a horrible speller. Just by teaching ds the first few weeks of Phonics Road, a bunch of spelling holes got filled in for me. I'm a very quick reader though.

[bbrandonsmom]

I'll take the opposite position here....

I am completely anti-phonics. There are more exceptions than rules, and the English language just doesn't lend itself to phonics. I am an advanced, extremely fast reader - and never could understand phonics at all. All of the people I know who learned phonics are slow readers - at least those who still sound words out as they read. I truly beileve the only proficient way to read is by memorizing the shapes of all words.

while.

 

For the "more exceptions than rules"- I thought this as well, until I learned that understanding where English words are derived actually makes sense phonetically to me then. It's just not something we were taught in school.

[nmoira]

I'm going to suggest taking a look at Mark Thogmartin's Teach a Child to Read with Children's Books. It has been a long time, but I think one thing he suggests is using predictable books. These type of books have worked well for my kids. We enjoy reading Each Peach Pear Plum, Brown Bear, Brown Bear, I Went Walking, A Dark, Dark Tale, etc.

 

A good predictable first novel is Twig. I don't like the book at all, partially because of its repetitive nature, but I can see how it would be a confidence builder for a developing reader.

[bbrandonsmom]

The same for bob books-http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=bob+books&x=0&y=0

 

We read the first 2 boxes when ds was learning the cvc words, but then we just read from Phonics Pathways. Ds was very excited that he could read a book and it encouraged him to read more.

 

I found interesting while looking through The Ordinary Parents Guide, that they have "sight" words listed and to teach them that way, yet there is an actual reason for how they are spelled. I liked the paragraphs in OPG though.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I would possibly look at your phonics program. Is it a full, comprehensive phonics program like OPGTR? Webster's Speller is also fantastic as ElizabethB mentioned. You can search for threads on it here. Plus Elizabeth has phonics instruction on her site:)

[PollyOR]

A good predictable first novel is Twig. I don't like the book at all, partially because of its repetitive nature, but I can see how it would be a confidence builder for a developing reader.

 

Thanks, Moira. I'll have to keep Twig in mind. When we attempted it (not sure we finished), I didn't think about the predictable aspect. I'll have to give it another look.