Adopting a child older than bio children?

[abbie5]

Wow, a rather controversial first post.

 

I'm so glad you are not dealing with RAD but you really can't compare your experience to that of someone dealing with RAD. It is a whole different world.

 

I just want to point out that the verse about temptation isn't about adoption, it's about sin. Adopting isn't a moral/ sin issue it is a choice. God may guide that choice but it's still not about sin so don't misinterpret the verse and especially don't use it to imply that somehow if a person was more godly they wouldn't have issues with their adopted kids. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

 

 

I wasn't saying the verse was about adoption. I know it's about sin. When dealing with our adopted child, sin can come into the picture (from our responses). When our adopted child has an "issue", sin comes into the picture (with his actions and his responses). Sin taints every aspect of life.

 

I was merely sharing our own experience and how we've dealt with things. I think that is what the original poster was asking for. Should she only hear from people with bad experiences??? Or only from people dealing with RAD? We are a real life family who has adopted an older child internationally. One older than our bio. What else can I say? Only what I know firsthand.

[abbie5]

I think it was because she didn't safely see her child into a group home, or even back to an orphanage; she stuck a little kid on an international flight all alone. It was just a bad idea.

 

Okay. I can see that I guess. I still can understand being at wit's end and doing something like that. I don't think she needed so much condemnation. I guess I felt sorry for her when she was being bashed is all.

[the4Rs]

abbie5- thanks for sharing a positive story. I was beginning to think those only exist in the "twilight zone." ;) Glad it is going well for you.

 

I do know that RAD is real and kids have issues, some way beyond what I am prepared to handle. I am sorry that so many of you have horrid situations and that you literally are hopeless. I can't imagine how hard it must be but just reading the many responses on here can't help but bring someone down. I feel bad for you, your spouses, your bio children, and your adopted children.

 

But by the grace of God, there go I.

 

I do wonder what my life would be like had I had a traumatic past, or lived through a country falling apart to war, or was subjected to drugs without my choice, or beaten, or raped, or failing to thrive as a child, or starving, or child trafficking, or seeing my family unable to care for me and giving me up, or getting yanked from the only home I know and sometimes subjected to numerous foster care situations....my life would be hell.

I would make someone work hard to love me. It does make sense. It really does. Thanks to all who have shared the good, the bad, and the horrific situations. It has given me a lot to mull over.

 

I certainly hope those who have been personally affected by RAD are advocating for change or for more options for families also dealing with this sensitive situation so everyone has the best help possible.

[the4Rs]

 

A few thoughts I had while reading your thread:

 

1. Go to the WTM members list and contact (pm) Elmeryl (Elm in NJ), here's her link:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/member.php?u=583

 

She is Sierra Leonean, and thinks she is probably the only S.L. homeschooler in the world, LOL! But she can tell you much more about her homeland and might even help you learn what to say (and not say) to Joseph when you Skype him.

 

2. Ask Joseph what he wants. I realize he is 10 years old, and in the US we wouldn't normally think that a 10 year old knows anything about anything, but African kids are different. Yes, I said it. It's true, though, they really ARE different, because if you're an orphan in Africa, raised by a grandma, turned over to an orphanage -- well, you tell me that doesn't affect a kid. I've worked with these kids (and more in Belize, Mexico, & the US). They are usually quite mature, perhaps adultified, and they may have definite ideas about what they're after. They are also sometimes MASTERS at manipulation, so keep your heart guarded (yes, guarded). But ask him.

 

3. Of course, pray. God will lead you in this decision, but keep your eyes and ears open, as well as your hearts.

 

4. Finally, if it were ME, I would seriously consider doing as much as I possibly could for Joseph WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF HIS OWN CULTURE AND SETTING. In other words, provide opportunities for him at the orphanage, help him to get through school, have clothing, medical care, good food. But perhaps leave it at that. I've seen how difficult it can be for even the most "balanced" children to make the HUGE adjustment from an overseas orphanage to a USA family home. It's an adjustment that some children NEVER make, despite their adoptive family's best efforts, prayers, and intentions.

 

Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that those OTHER families just got "bad packages" or must have done something wrong. The kids in the overseas setting are fine, just fine. The adoptive families are so sweet and loving. The combination of culture shock, family bonding, language learning, and so many other variables seems to send some children off the deep end. I hesitate to say this so publicly, because we all like to hear adoption stories with happily-ever-after endings, but it's just not always so. HTH.

 

Thank you for such a wealth of knowledge. I am seriously pouring over your thoughts and thanks for linking me with someone on here from Sierra Leone. :001_smile:

[Dobela]

 

I was merely sharing our own experience and how we've dealt with things. I think that is what the original poster was asking for. Should she only hear from people with bad experiences??? Or only from people dealing with RAD? We are a real life family who has adopted an older child internationally. One older than our bio. What else can I say? Only what I know firsthand.

I am glad you had a good situation. I am not saying they don't exist. I shared the story of my friend because her parents adopted 2 boys and it has been at least semi successful.

 

I share my bad experience with children diagnosed with RAD simply because I find way too many people who are considering adoption and that have no idea about RAD or how life changing it can be. When you read of adoption and are first considering it, those issues don't seem real. Or at least they didn't to us. We had no idea just how bad 'bad' could be. We had social workers and adoption people actually lie to us about how serious their mental health issues were. I havea friend that was hospitalized after a teen boy that they were in the process of adopting beat her up, for the heack of it. While he was in treatment he described how he was going to kill her - but again social workers wouldn't tell her this but instead pushed her tobring him back into the home.

 

In adoption, in the beginning, people are told how wonderful it is. How wonderful you will be for rescuing the child from a worse place. How wonderful you are for loving that child that was abused or neglected.

 

Then when you begin living in hell, everyone who said those things disappears. They don't want to help. They don't believe you. They find you at fault.

 

So yes, adopting an older child can be a good addition to the family. But it can also be a nightmare. I believe it is partly my responsibilty now to educate others about how bad it can be.

[Denisemomof4]

Agreed! If you choose to proceed, you must parent as though he has all of the issues listed above--you will not likely get disclosure of said issues. This will mean line-of-sight supervision whenever he has access to your younger children. Ensuring limited movement at night while everyone's asleep (simple door and window alarms allow everyone to sleep safely) and therapeutic parenting (this is nothing like parenting your well-attached children, and can be incredibly draining). Read, read, read. Pray, pray, pray.

 

I don't mean to frighten or discourage you. More therapeutic adoptive parents are needed. But there are way too many disruptions happening and way too many siblings getting victimized recently.

 

Parenting traumatized kids is hard work. Unending. HARD. WORK. We need more to do it, but they need to be trained from day zero and committed to the very end.

 

I'm raising (maybe 'managing' is a better word) two traumatized children and have fostered many more.

I can point you to resources if you're interested.

mommama

 

What is your favorite therapeutic parenting book/resource???:bigear:

[Denisemomof4]

AMEN!! Sister, my prayers are with you. I. know. what. you're. going. through. Youth is not protective. In fact the damage done during the first years is the MOST DAMAGING. I have two with RAD, both came home at age TWO YEARS. Both went through hell for the first two years of their lives. The result....violence toward animals, and younger children, and us, homicidal thoughts, hiding makeshift weapons, rages, lying (scary lying. makeyoufeellikeyoumightbecrazy-lying), willful destruction of property, smearing feces, vomiting in anger, telling perfect strangers 'i love you', telling me 'i hate you', etc etc, etc

 

This is no joke y'all. Please ask yourself if you're willing to change your entire life--live as though you're in a residential treatment center 24-7, plan to pay for inpatient treatment instead of college, ask yourself if you'd do it even if all of your dreams about adoption fell apart. Would you stick with it if any of the above were happening with your child? If you can love a child who hates you, and protect the rest of your family, then proceed. Proceed with caution.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I *HEAR* YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sassyscrapperinid]

Seven years ago, we adopted two kids from an orphanage. The paperwork said that they'd lived with their bio mom until her death and had only come to the orphanage after her death. On PAPER, it appeared that they'd been raised in a family before placement at the orphanage. The older child, who was 8 when we adopted her, SEEMED like a sweet, loving child when we met her. The reality was that she'd been neglected, abused and sexualized before placement in the orphanage. Five years after adoption, after counseling, and more counseling, and structure and love and meds and therapists and parenting classes and experts, she threatened to kill me. She had five different ways in mind...

 

My bio dd suffered terribly while she was here. Luckily, she was twice the size of her sister, so she was not physically abused by her. Mentally, though, the time her sister lived here took a HUGE toll.

 

I remember the feeling of falling in love with the child you want to adopt before you've even met him. We did the same thing. Unfortunately, you're falling in love with a child you assume is like your children -- loving, eager to learn, kind, caring. This child *may* be that way, or he may not be. Sometimes, the abuse and neglect and trauma change the child forever. That was the case with our adopted daughter. She was no longer a loving, parent-able child. Instead, she was violent, aggressive, and had psychotic breaks. She lied, she ran away, and she manipulated -- all while appearing to be the sweetest, most responsible, most loving kid to her friends, teachers and non-family members.

 

Talking on Skype or meeting him in person will not tell you if he has issues. EVERY kid with RAD I've ever met (and I've met probably a hundred!) was charming and adorable. A meeting will tell you very little, IMO.

 

Sorry to be a downer, but you need to consider the possible realities. Adopting this child could be a wonderful thing for your family. Or, it could be the thing that changes your younger two forever. :(

 

Lisa

This is so true! My adopted children have all been thought of by outsiders as perfect little angels. Ofcourse those people had no idea what we were going through!!

[sassyscrapperinid]

Unfortunately, (and this is what no one involved with adoption wants to really admit) there are children who simply are too damaged to ever live in a family. They do not need a family--they can't handle it. They need a highly structured, therapeutic setting that no functional family should have to provide. They need fresh staff every 8-12 hours who can handle all that these kids dish out and remain in a therapeutic mindset, they need more therapy than most families can afford to pay for, they need protection from themselves...

 

I totally agree with this comment. I thought we had more than enough love for our 5 adopted children. I wish I realized then that they needed way more than love.

 

~Stella

[mommama]

What is your favorite therapeutic parenting book/resource???:bigear:

 

Goodness. I read everything I can get my hands on! I think the reading helps me to cope. Deborah Gray, Karyn Purvis and (believe it or not) a great blog called welcometomybrain . net are what I'm reading most right now. I return to 'the purple book' (Nancy Thomas' When Love is Not Enough,), Daniel Hughes and Keck/Kupecky often. I even re-read Bryan Post's book on occasion, though it's sometimes hard for me to hear his perspective. We have to switch things up frequently as far as our responses to behaviors go--revisiting these works helps us to keep coming up with ideas. I even read the new work on RAD for the DSM--very informative, if somewhat depressing, summary of the outcomes research available. I'm a bit of a science geek, so I enjoy reading some of the neurobiological stuff on these kids.

 

How about yourself?

[EthiopianFood]

I even read the new work on RAD for the DSM--very informative, if somewhat depressing, summary of the outcomes research available. I'm a bit of a science geek, so I enjoy reading some of the neurobiological stuff on these kids.

 

Is this available online somewhere? I'm particularly interested in their summary of outcomes.

[Haiku]

This is exactly right. Often a small group home is in the best interest of a child with RAD.

 

I agree that not all kids benefit from a nuclear family. I have long told people that the emotional closeness of our family is a huge impediment for my daughter. But I must say that, having had experience with half a dozen group homes in my pre-mom, working life, group homes generally tend to suck. Imo, they are schools magnified and concentrated. In schools, you take a bunch of kids and confine them, and many of the worst behaviors result. In group homes, you take a bunch of emotionally screwed up kids and confine them, and the dysfunction multiplies exponentially. In the group homes I am familiar with, physical, sexual, and emotional abuse among the kids was commonplace. Unless you run it basically like a jail, there really is no way to supervise a half-dozen to a dozen kids 24/7/365, and these traumatized, victimized kids turn around and traumatize and victimize each other.

 

Tara

[Denisemomof4]

Goodness. I read everything I can get my hands on! I think the reading helps me to cope. Deborah Gray, Karyn Purvis and (believe it or not) a great blog called welcometomybrain . net are what I'm reading most right now. I return to 'the purple book' (Nancy Thomas' When Love is Not Enough,), Daniel Hughes and Keck/Kupecky often. I even re-read Bryan Post's book on occasion, though it's sometimes hard for me to hear his perspective. We have to switch things up frequently as far as our responses to behaviors go--revisiting these works helps us to keep coming up with ideas. I even read the new work on RAD for the DSM--very informative, if somewhat depressing, summary of the outcomes research available. I'm a bit of a science geek, so I enjoy reading some of the neurobiological stuff on these kids.

 

How about yourself?

 

I have Nancy Thomas, Daniel Hughes, Heather Talbott Forbes. I'm not sure about Karyn Purvis. Is Deborah Gray the Attaching in Adoption? I have that one, too. I also have some Margot Sunderland books and an AWESOME book called A Safe Place for Caleb. Those are books to read to/interactive to use with the kids.

 

I know I have many more but I don't remember the less popular author names. All my books are packed at the moment.

[Denisemomof4]

 

This is not an uncommon day. This is several times a week or a daily event. She has huge daily tantrums without exception, but the ones that last for hours are currently 3-5 days a week.

 

Her therapists don't feel that she will ever graduate out of therapy. Her needs and types of therapists will change, but they will be ever present. :/

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:I'm SO sorry. I can't even imagine, yet I have my own personal Hell here. She's like your dd, a dream at times, a terror at other times.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I wish we lived closer together so we could get out alone!!! PLEASE, call me anytime you'd like. You have my number and I'm all ears. I have my own stories to share, too. :sad:

 

Have you ever considered a Mom's retreat, one for moms like us who are over burdened by our troubled kids? I'd LOVE to meet you at one!

[Denisemomof4]

I so agree with this, except I would add that in a good group care environment, the intimacy that is so threatening to a child with RAD isn't present; therefore I think 1) it's a better environment for the child because it is not so scary and 2) the child does not have the trigger to act out so horrendously. We really need to change the attitude that every kid needs a "forever family" ; ie a nuclear family. All children need a caring environment and children with severe RAD do, too. But they also need emotional space that is not possible in a family. We need to get rid of the "forever family" mindset and instead develop our diagnostic acumen in determining which children need ta "forever group environment (until adulthood and functioning as extended family) and which can benefit from a nuclear family. We need to, as a society, provide that group care. (Adoption places the costs of caring for these children squarely on the shoulders of one private family. ) If there is a mistake and a child with RAD is placed in a family, there should be a no-guilt option of saying, "This is not working" within the first couple years. The family can continue to be "extended family" for the child, but not the nuclear family. Just my out-of-mainstream opinion.

 

 

I've edited and reedited my response a million times but I've taking most of it away. All I want to say is this:

 

 

Laurie, had I read this before or during my adoption process, I would have thought you were nuts. Now that I have a RAD dd, I completely agree with you. These are WISE words. My dd is in a loving family, but at what cost? The lives of five of us were sacrificed for years so I could revolve our world around a-dd. She didn't get better and we all were a complete wreck. Now that our family got to a state of being COMPLETELY broken down, and we're in the process of rebuilding, I won't allow it anymore. If she tries to sabotage our time, she's in her room. PERIOD. I just can't do it anymore.

 

I've aged so much I look like an old, tired lady now. I've done so much for my dd. No matter how much love I give her or how much I try to help her, it's never enough. She's a bucket with many holes that can simply never get filled. In the process, it's taken it's toll on my health.

 

She would have been better off not being in a family. She THINKS if her family was only Chinese that she'd be fine. BUT, I know differently. You can't cure an attachment disorder by being adopted in a family with the same heritage. I know how much she WANTS a Chinese family, but having one would NOT have cured the hole in her heart that will always be there because her birth mother didn't, or couldn't keep her.

[Denisemomof4]

 

I certainly hope those who have been personally affected by RAD are advocating for change or for more options for families also dealing with this sensitive situation so everyone has the best help possible.

 

If I had the energy to take this on, I would. If I could do ONE thing with my life to make a difference, it would be to EDUCATE parents who will be adopting about RAD, what to look for UP FRONT, and I would make sure a system was in place to HELP families like ours, who are left dangling by a thread with nobody to catch them when they fall off.

 

I can't tell you how much I wish I could change this all. But you know what? I'm TOO TIRED to take it on. I need to muster up enough energy just to get through today. And on good days, which there are many, I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. It ALWAYS does. But it's hard when it's intentional and set up at just the right time......... to sabotage your heart or your day at a time you really NEEDED things to be ok.

 

I fantasize about all I wish I could do, and I fantasize about a happy family where ALL the kids love their parents and try to do right.

[elfgivas]

 

I would make someone work hard to love me.

 

 

:grouphug: you have been given a lot of good advice. i will simply add that your quote above may well not be an adequate summary of what you are hearing in people's stories. what i think many are saying is that sometimes love is not enough. it will never be enough. you could work hard.... really, really hard.... and love the child with all your heart... and still need locks on all your interior doors, and still need to have said child beside you - literally - every moment of every day. which means your other dear children aren't.

 

it may well be like adding gasoline to a diesel car's tank. most cars run on gasoline and it works really well. but if you add it to a diesel car, the engine seizes. once that happens, adding diesel will not do a thing....

 

for some of the RAD kids, their "engine" seized early in life, and all of the right stuff will not fix it. sometimes, the very best you can hope for is to manage their behavior in a way that does the least damage to your other children.

 

hth,

ann

[ZooRho]

Ann,

I'm feeling the same thing. There are times what those who have had to deal with bad situations do to help is warn other with thier own stories. But people wanting the idealized adoption don't want to hear it Or they think they have heard it and think they can handle it or they are being called to do it etc.

 

It sucks to be in the middle of a disrupted adoption. I have know quite a few people who have had disruppted adoptions their familes are forever changed. Our situtation has changed our life and not always for the better. We have a child now that has been deeply affected and I am not sure he will ever get over the damage that was done to him. AND that breaks my heart and it is why I can't be silent when I see other contemplating out of birthorder adoptions.

:grouphug: you have been given a lot of good advice. i will simply add that your quote above may well not be an adequate summary of what you are hearing in people's stories. what i think many are saying is that sometimes love is not enough. it will never be enough. you could work hard.... really, really hard.... and love the child with all your heart... and still need locks on all your interior doors, and still need to have said child beside you - literally - every moment of every day. which means your other dear children aren't.

 

it may well be like adding gasoline to a diesel car's tank. most cars run on gasoline and it works really well. but if you add it to a diesel car, the engine seizes. once that happens, adding diesel will not do a thing....

 

for some of the RAD kids, their "engine" seized early in life, and all of the right stuff will not fix it. sometimes, the very best you can hope for is to manage their behavior in a way that does the least damage to your other children.

 

hth,

ann

[Happy2BaMom]

To the OP....

 

...I can only repeat what so many others have said. Please, please do not do this. There is a very small chance (I would say <5%) that this adoption would work out the way you want it to. There is a much greater chance that this would be damaging for your children.

 

Dh & I have been respite foster parents for 3+ years. I've received a lot of training, talked to a lot of other foster & adoptive parents, and seen a number of kids through our house. All of them deserve love and the help they need. All were profoundly damaged, although you never knew it until they had lived in your home for awhile (at least 6-8 months full-time). Nearly all of them were a risk to younger children. Most were a risk to older children. I would NEVER adopt a child older than my own. (Although, I guess if you believe in rolling the dice for the 5%, perhaps.) The risk of your childrens' lives being disrupted or hurt is huge.

 

If you want to help this boy, help to find him a home with people who have the capacity to help a child deal with potential feelings of pain, rage, shame, loss, displacement, and confusion over his identity.

 

Bless you for wanting to help. When your children are much older, perhaps then you will find a child who is right to bring into your house.

 

Oh - one add on, here in my edit - if you are going to adopt, you need to seek training, and lots of it. Even if you don't want to adopt domestically, complete the free foster parenting training offered by your state. This will give you a realistic picture of the challenges children from disrupted homes face. In fact, it is a good idea to become a foster parent for awhile. It tends to remove the "love is everything" glow that so many prospective adoptive parents have (don't get me wrong - the sentiment is wonderful - but it is NOT helpful, especially to the child). You will have a better idea of whether your family can handle a special-needs child (they are all special needs...I know this may sound negative, but it isn't. I've opened my home to these children and cared for them. I love and pray for all of them. But they are special needs and they need parents who understand and can deal with that.)

Edited October 5, 2010 by Happy2BaMom
mistakenly wrote 'weeks' when I meant 'months'

[katilac]

I haven't dealt with adoption or RAD, but I do have close experience with someone who had emotional problems that basically mirror RAD (there was no early abuse or neglect, which the RAD description calls for).

 

I wanted to share something that first helped me to understand the difference between a person who might "make you work hard to love them" and a person who is essentially incapable of accepting and returning that love. Again, it is not speaking of someone with RAD per se, but for me it pegs the feeling of trying and trying to 'prove' your love to someone. It is a very rough paraphrase from Ann Rule, the crime writer:

 

They claim to want love, but love is not enough. If you give them all of your love, they want all of your time. All of your love and time does not satisfy them; they want the breath from your body. If you give them your every breath, they want the blood from your veins. If you give them the blood from your veins, they want the marrow from your bones.

 

This helped me on two levels. One, it was the first description I ever read to that captured the feeling and reality so accurately. Two, it helped cement my emerging thoughts that giving more and more and more is not always the answer, and that it was not my responsibility to constantly prove my love.

 

No one can force another to accept or believe in love.

Edited October 5, 2010 by katilac
wording

[TravelingChris]

Denise, what are your plans for your daughter? It just seems like this situation cannot continue in the same way until she is 18. At some point, she will grow and become more than even you can handle. What then? I am just wondering what are the options. Praying for your family.

[Denisemomof4]

I haven't dealt with adoption or RAD, but I do have close experience with someone who had emotional problems that basically mirror RAD (there was no early abuse or neglect, which the RAD description calls for).

 

I wanted to share something that first helped me to understand the difference between a person who might "make you work hard to love them" and a person who is essentially incapable of accepting and returning that love. Again, it is not speaking of someone with RAD per se, but for me it pegs the feeling of trying and trying to 'prove' your love to someone. It is a very rough paraphrase from Ann Rule, the crime writer:

 

They claim to want love, but love is not enough. If you give them all of your love, they want all of your time. All of your love and time does not satisfy them; they want the breath from your body. If you give them your every breath, they want the blood from your veins. If you give them the blood from your veins, they want the marrow from your bones.

This helped me on two levels. One, it was the first description I ever read to that captured the feeling and reality so accurately. Two, it helped cement my emerging thoughts that giving more and more and more is not always the answer, and that it was not my responsibility to constantly prove my love.

 

No one can force another to accept or believe in love.

 

WOW!!!! This is my dd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I also want to point out that biological kids who have NOT been neglected can have RAD. It usually happens when the child has had MANY painful medical procedures as a baby and had to spend time away from their mother. In my online RAD groups there was a family whom was dealing with this with their bio son. He lost trust in his mother. In HIS eyes, his mother was allowing all these people to hurt him (surgery) and she stood by them through it all. It was a very disturbing and heart breaking situation. He never really forgave his mom and was a very, very sick little boy. I don't know where they're at now.

[Denisemomof4]

Denise, what are your plans for your daughter? It just seems like this situation cannot continue in the same way until she is 18. At some point, she will grow and become more than even you can handle. What then? I am just wondering what are the options. Praying for your family.

 

well, last year I came down hard and didn't allow her to have privileges unless she did her school work. MANY times she had to attend our homeschool group and sit by herself with her books. I cried so many times, posted here, called friends in hysterics, bent my husbands ear. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. Sometimes I felt like I was standing naked in front of the group for everyone to stare and judge. I've finally opened up to my group about her issues and appear to have everyone's full support. And guess what? SHE DOES HER SCHOOL WORK. In fact, we're about to leave to get her a candy bar because she just completed last year's math. :party::party::party: I didn't know if we'd EVER get to this point.

 

Now I'm coming down hard on not allowing her to sabotage our family time anymore. We had come a LONG way in this area and had LONG periods of NORMALCY with only regular kid problems. Then my parents got sick and I took care of them. I was distracted for 2.5 years and not able to focus on her OR my family nearly enough. ONLY NOW can I say I have recovered from that. So my dd regressed horribly during the time I wasn't really available to my family. Now I'm buckling down again and I fully expect our family to return to a peaceful place again, WITH HER. Dd KNOWS if she misbehaves, she'll have to go to her room. She will test boundaries, but I expect her to eventually stop that, too. What normally takes a week, say, to train my bio kids, will take perhaps a YEAR with her. It's EXCRUCIATING. BUT somehow we get there. SOMEHOW I've managed to come this far.

 

As a teen, I expect more of the same. I don't expect to EVER have a normal family life where I can simply walk out the room to get a cup of tea and leave her unattended. I just don't see that ever happening. If she becomes violent, all bets are off. If she attacks us when she's older, or her sister, I will have no choice but to get the authorities involved and/or send her to a group home or something.

 

Here is one thing to marinate on. Two years ago I would have told you I could NEVER do what I'm doing now. Four years ago I would have told you I could NEVER, EVER live with a child attached to my hip 24/7. My coping abilities have changed and I've been ABLE to do what I do. I've learned that the more I'm forced to handle, I do. It's a constant work in progress. That doesn't mean that when new situations are thrown at me, or ANY situation thrown at me AT THE WRONG TIME, doesn't cause a melt down. But once I get all the tears out and get a good night's sleep, I see the situation with new eyes. Sometimes it takes more than tears and sleep, sometimes it simply takes time. And I take off BY MYSELF once per year to be with friends, once for 10 days, and I take weekends away to rejuvenate. Somehow we make it.

 

I can't tell you when I learned to accept that I have to live like this, but I can tell you that I cried out a TON earlier on that I felt like a prisoner in my home. I no longer feel that way. I've come to accept our new norm. I don't have to LIKE it, but I do have to ACCEPT it.

 

Dh works from home once or twice per month so I can go to our homeschool group with dd10 and just enjoy myself. I can't even begin to tell you what a joy it is to be in a group of friends I love to be with, and not have to constantly be on high alert watching dd7. This is giving me even MORE ability to cope.

 

I do see improvement. TONS of improvement. I see I have a lot of work ahead of me still. I have hope. This year is exciting for me. It is the FIRST year I'm able to fully dedicate myself to schooling my daughters 100%, to focusing on doing more alone with them, WITHOUT friends or our homeschool group. I do believe we'll get her back to that place she was before my parents became ill. If not, I'll have to decide what to do at that time.

 

Sometimes I feel we won't be in this boat when she's a teen. Sometimes I get so overwhelmed at the thought of having to deal with her as a teen. Sometimes I get FEARFUL. But you know what? We will find our way then just as we have had to over the years. It's extremely difficult but we somehow do it. We find a way.

[bethben]

We had friends that adopted two boys from Russia at 10 and 12 years old. They both had RAD. She called it quits when one of the boys tried to shoot her. She honestly hopes that Russia makes it impossible to adopt children from their country because these children wreck families (in her opinion).

 

We adopted a year ago. Thankfully, our daughter has almost fully attached well to us (there are still some little issues here and there - not horrible/very manageable), but until she did, she was the sweet to strangers and horrible to us. She was 2 1/2 when we adopted her. Funny thing - but one of the turning points for her was when she had to have a medical procedure and I stuck to her like glue comforting her and singing to her. She saw me as a safe haven at that point thankfully. Even though she's bonded to us, I'm still in process of bonding to her because of all those first months. For the first few months, I was convinced I had ruined our family forever. It would be a nightmare to have to continue dealing with her if she was still like that.

 

I read the nice adoption books for children that paint this pretty picture of everything going so smooth and how the mom loved her child right from the beginning. I say "HA!" It may be like that for some, but not for all. God has adopted us as children and I bet you more than one of us has had a rocky transition from sinner to "saint".

 

Beth

[Dobela]

 

I also want to point out that biological kids who have NOT been neglected can have RAD. It usually happens when the child has had MANY painful medical procedures as a baby and had to spend time away from their mother. In my online RAD groups there was a family whom was dealing with this with their bio son. He lost trust in his mother. In HIS eyes, his mother was allowing all these people to hurt him (surgery) and she stood by them through it all. It was a very disturbing and heart breaking situation. He never really forgave his mom and was a very, very sick little boy. I don't know where they're at now.

This is very important to point out. If you are looking at what causes RAD, premature babies have very high incidences of RAD. Children that had medical problems and endured lots of pain and poking at early ages are at high risk for RAD. Drugs and Alcohol in utero can have RAD. If the mother was injured while pregnant (such as in domestic violence), RAD can be a real result. Adoptive families talk about RAD the most, or so it seems, simply because it is so prevalent in 'our community'.

 

You also need to know there are degrees of RAD. It can be mild and remediated thru therapy or it can be most severe and the child need to be institutionalized to protect self and others. Unfortunately, in the beginning, you don't know which ou are bringing home.

[mommama]

Is this available online somewhere? I'm particularly interested in their summary of outcomes.

 

Yes, but I got it pretty deep into a google search. I'll be home with my desktop in a week (need to make better use of that idisk) and I can get it to you if you'd like to pm/email me your contact info. The references are excellent paths to further info too!

[sassyscrapperinid]

This is very important to point out. If you are looking at what causes RAD, premature babies have very high incidences of RAD. Children that had medical problems and endured lots of pain and poking at early ages are at high risk for RAD. Drugs and Alcohol in utero can have RAD. If the mother was injured while pregnant (such as in domestic violence), RAD can be a real result. Adoptive families talk about RAD the most, or so it seems, simply because it is so prevalent in 'our community'.

 

You also need to know there are degrees of RAD. It can be mild and remediated thru therapy or it can be most severe and the child need to be institutionalized to protect self and others. Unfortunately, in the beginning, you don't know which ou are bringing home.

 

 

It would be so WONDERFUL if this existed. When we adopted, we had NO idea what RAD was/is. Wish we would have known.

 

~Stella

[Impish]

Just a quick note about 'milder RAD' and bio kids.

 

I attended a quick seminar w/SpecialMama about a year ago now about attachment issues. The woman talked about 'Interrupted Attachment Disorder" and RAD. IAD is the 'milder form' that some refer to.

 

While listening to her, my jaw sagged open. BOTH my dh and I experienced IAD. He was adopted by a mother whom we're convinced has NPD when he was 2. I grew up with a mother who we're also convinced has NPD, and an abusive step-dad. In some circles, I'm called 'adoptee lite' because I lost my known dad when my mother divorced her first husband, and my younger brother as well.

 

My dh still has issues with IAD. So do I. We're luckier than most, because we are able to love each other and our children. Even then, after 7 yrs of marriage, my dh still will test me now and then. Much, MUCH better than when we were first married.

 

On another note, I wonder and worry what will happen when these children with RAD grow up. What happens if they marry and have children? How many will end up in the penal system?

 

It worries me...esp when thinking of potential future spouses of my kids.

[Laurie4b]

I find it somewhat humorous that when the news story broke about the mom sending her adopted Russian child back on a plane, the general consenses here was that she was basically a wretched person for doing so. Yet, this thread is filled with people talking about sending the child to full time group care. I see little difference! :confused: I actually can understand why an adoptive family might choose that option, but also can understand why the single mother would send her child back to his country. It can be very difficult to manage an older child, so I can see the natural tendency being to send them away.

 

Anyway... we adopted an older child than our bio children, and yes it's been difficult but not beyond what we have been able to bare. He was 6 when he came home with us (from another country), and I'm sure there was alcohol involved in the prengnancy, thus making learning a little more difficult. But we are Christians, and believe the verse that states God will not tempt you beyond what you are able to bear... that goes for adopted children, brain damaged children, etc. 1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to us all. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. He will always provide a way out. In our most difficult times with our adopted child, we always remind ourselves of this verse. In both us handling the situation, and the adopted child handling whatever it is that he's dealing with. God's Word is truth! What a relief.

 

Is adopting an older child risky? Yes. Is it hard work? Yes. Like anything else in life that has value. Our bio children have not suffered because of our decision to adopt their brother. They have grown richer from the experience. We could have taken the easier road, but we would have missed out on the blessings that come through trying circumstances. You really have to seek the Lord on what He desires for *your* family. If you are His, He will work all things to the good. I could never tell another family if they should or should not adopt an older child. I can only tell them of our own experience. Our adopted son is now a teenager and doing very well. He is a believer, and a hard worker, and we have very bright hopes for his future. And it's all by God's grace.

 

Instead of condemning others for what you are not having to cope with, I would focus on being grateful that you do not have to cope with it. The verse you quoted at people is about temptation--we are never forced to sin. However, it is not a sin to place a child in group care if that is best for the child.

 

One family who I know personally had a child with RAD try to kill her younger siblings. That is not unusual. The family had to put her in residential care to protect their other children. At that time, there was group care available. If the same thing had happened now, 20 years later, there would be no group care due to steadily shrinking state budgets. The girl would have had to be charged with attempted murder and committed to the criminal justice system.

 

The difference between the woman who put her child on the plane to Russia was that she made no provision for his care. Placing a child in care can be a loving thing to do.

 

I do not believe that family care is the best option for children with RAD in many cases. That doesn't mean that the child cannot be loved.

[FaithManor]

Well, I am a devoted follower of Christ and I do not see anything in this verse for which one can condemn anyone else for the choice of removing a disturbed child from a family setting that is a tragedy in the making! There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Hey, when an eight year old child decides to stab your three year old with the butcher knife, you are a sinner if you try to find residential care so that your little one is protected."

 

Just because Abbie5 hasn't dealt with it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. The Bible says, Make Love your Aim and the greatest of these is "Charity" which translates "love" in modern English. Just because you haven't experienced a child that mentally deranged, it doesn't mean that for some families, the most loving thing they can do, is send a predatory child to a residential treatment center.

 

"And it's all by God's Grace"....well, God imparts his grace to each and sometimes he give them the grace to know that it is okay to admit that the child needs more help than what can be provided within the family unit.

 

This may offend Abbie5, but there but for the Grace of God go I.., you should be eternally grateful that your son is not as disturbed as some of the children that adoptive parents have dealt with and you should extend grace and mercy to those who have clearly had to go through things you do not understand. There is no sin here.

 

Faith, a former respite care giver who has been on the receiving end of a knife wielding RAD eight year old (who thankfully was tackled from behind by one of his older brothers and PTL no one was injured), who has held a RAD child wrapped in a sheet while he screamed and kicked for more than two hours until I was utterly, physically and mentally at my last end and didn't think I'd be able to continue the fight though the child was determined to kill himself, who has interuppted a RAD child from attempting to strangle to death the family pet, who used to want to adopt a child until she did RAD respite care for her dear friends......I've been in the trenches just enough to know I would not be pointing the finger at anyone for institutionalizing a RAD child. If anything, I would congratulate them on taking a horrifically difficult decision that might just save the life of one of their family members or others in the community.

[sassyscrapperinid]

Well, I am a devoted follower of Christ and I do not see anything in this verse for which one can condemn anyone else for the choice of removing a disturbed child from a family setting that is a tragedy in the making! There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Hey, when an eight year old child decides to stab your three year old with the butcher knife, you are a sinner if you try to find residential care so that your little one is protected."

 

Just because Abbie5 hasn't dealt with it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. The Bible says, Make Love your Aim and the greatest of these is "Charity" which translates "love" in modern English. Just because you haven't experienced a child that mentally deranged, it doesn't mean that for some families, the most loving thing they can do, is send a predatory child to a residential treatment center.

 

"And it's all by God's Grace"....well, God imparts his grace to each and sometimes he give them the grace to know that it is okay to admit that the child needs more help than what can be provided within the family unit.

 

This may offend Abbie5, but there but for the Grace of God go I.., you should be eternally grateful that your son is not as disturbed as some of the children that adoptive parents have dealt with and you should extend grace and mercy to those who have clearly had to go through things you do not understand. There is no sin here.

 

Faith, a former respite care giver who has been on the receiving end of a knife wielding RAD eight year old (who thankfully was tackled from behind by one of his older brothers and PTL no one was injured), who has held a RAD child wrapped in a sheet while he screamed and kicked for more than two hours until I was utterly, physically and mentally at my last end and didn't think I'd be able to continue the fight though the child was determined to kill himself, who has interuppted a RAD child from attempting to strangle to death the family pet, who used to want to adopt a child until she did RAD respite care for her dear friends......I've been in the trenches just enough to know I would not be pointing the finger at anyone for institutionalizing a RAD child. If anything, I would congratulate them on taking a horrifically difficult decision that might just save the life of one of their family members or others in the community.

:iagree: I really could not have put that better myself. After I read the comments written by Abbie5 (I believe), I started to write a response to her myself.. but you said it VERY well. Thanks!

[mommama]

I did finally get home to my desktop after working my 'real' job and then working in Haiti for a couple of weeks. I'd be more than happy to send the update to anyone interested via email. Unfortunately, it's too large to post as an attachment here. If you'd rather not use your private email, you can always set up a dummy free account to get the file if you're interested.

 

mommama

[misscometa]

In general, no. You have no idea if this child has been sexualized, is violent, has RAD, etc. And it may be that no one else knows this, or they may hide this info from you. (We've seen that happen.) The safety of the children already in your home must come first.

 

But sometimes God overrides the standard operating procedure . . . be open to that.

 

:iagree:

 

 

(We've seen that happen.) Yes, I am living proof of this :(