Math U See

[browneyedgirl]

Ok, this was our first year homeschooling. We decided to go with Math U See on reccomendation of a friend. Well almost thru with the year we are getting ready for Stanford Achievement Tests and using the Scoring High to prep. I realize how lacking MUS is!! My first grader has spent all year on addition facts and subtraction and didn't remember things like borrowing and carrying, measuring, tally marks...etc. Things I believe he learned last year in Private School using Abeka math. Using Scoring High has given me the opportunity to teach or review things he didn't know.

 

But needless to say I am upset that MUS doesn't say "we are not a complete math program....you should use us to supplement..." or something to that effect. They left way too much out. We were planning to do Abeka math over the summer but still now I am worried my kids won't do well on math on the SAT.:001_huh:

[browneyedgirl]

I just sent a copy of my message to Math U See and to Steve Deme ;>)

[Heather in Neverland]

What level of MUS did you use? I know for a fact that Beta addresses all those things and that is what we used for 1st grade. MUS teaches things in a different order than texts like Abeka because it is mastery and not spiral or incremental. If you follow the program all the way through Zeta they will get to it all.

[ABQmom]

Yes, I agree with Heather. MUS is a complete program. The children will get to everything. As a matter of fact, my dd's took the IOWA last year in 3rd and 5th grade and did great on the math portion of the test. We've never used anything but MUS. We have covered through Zeta now, and have not found MUS to be lacking.

[kim in ks]

MUS is a complete program. We had used it clear through. Standarized test are set according to the PUblic school's math agenda . MUS has a little different scope and sequence, which will all iron out the same. Our children did just fine on their ACT's and Iowa basics. Different curriculums can vary in scope and sequence.

kim

[Sunshine State Sue]

Standardized tests are set according to the Public school's math agenda . MUS has a little different scope and sequence, which will all iron out the same.

 

:iagree:

 

Here is an excerpt from my review. Email me if you would like my obnoxiously detailed review of MUS. We started in K and will be finishing Pre-Algebra next week!

 

Sometimes, people ask about testing. Here is my experience. When my son was about ½ way through Epsilon (5th grade), I had to have him evaluated due to state law. He took the Woodcock Johnson test (national test which only took 30 minutes total), and the results were startling. His math calculation came out upper 8th grade and his math reasoning came out mid 9th grade! It took me a while to understand this. It does not mean that he is doing 8th/9th grade math work. It means that my son, working at 5.5 grade level, does as well as the average 8th/9th grader. When he was ½ way through Zeta (6th grade), he took the Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement and scored post high school in math.

 

Sometimes, people are concerned about the scope & sequence of MUS. If you look at the scope & sequence of some other math curriculums or what is being taught in your local elementary school, you may find it different from MUS. MUS uses a "mastery" approach. It focuses on single digit addition and subtraction in alpha, multiple digit addition and subtraction in beta, multiplication in gamma, division in delta, fractions in epsilon, and decimals in zeta, roughly 1st-6th grade. Other curriculums use a "spiral" approach. They do a little bit of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions in each grade with each year getting progressively more difficult. This concerns some people. If they put their child in school in 3rd grade, their child may have not seen fractions at all, whereas the ps'ers would have seen simple fractions. This does not mean that the 3rd graders who have been taught simple fractions actually understand them, just that they have seen them.

 

But, because MUS focuses on one concept each year, I see that as one of its strengths. I think it really helps the child to know multiplication (for example) until they know it forwards, backwards, sideways, and upside down. I think it helps to CEMENT it in the child's head.

[Tess in the Burbs]

MUS is Mastery and does not cover things in the normal order and will eventually get to everything. It isn't fair to slam the program just b/c it's not what you want/expected.

 

we did switch to something else after using Primer and Alpha b/c I too struggled with how it presents things in that order, but my kids learned from MUS b/c they continue to amaze me with facts!

 

Hope you find something that works for you

[LizzyBee]

Agreeing with the others - MUS is a complete program, but it's scope and sequence is different than most state standards and ps curricula. I have heard from a certified educational tester that her observation is that kids who use MUS will score lower in the early grades due to not having yet covered some of the topics that are on the tests; however, once they get to the upper elementary grades, they score very well.

[Moxie]

MUS is a great program but I do think you need to commit to it for several years. We love it and my first grader is now an addition whiz!!

[Parrothead]

Agreeing with the others. We'll finish Gamma at the end of May. MUS is the third program that we tried. Of the three it is the only one dd gets. We will use it all the way through.

 

One of the teachers at our local ps is very impressed with the MUS

[Jenstet]

This is out first year too and we use MUS. My dd is coming from 3 years of PS with a spiral program. It just didn't work for her. She touched on everything including Geometry, Division, and Multiplication but didn't know how to add very well. As a result we had to start a lower level with MUS to get a better foundation. I knew we would never be able to use testing as our evaluation method because MUS doesn't follow our PS spiral program. However I feel very confident that my dd will KNOW what she is doing. Like everyone said it is something you have to look at over the next few years not just until the end of the school year. Marathon not a race type thing. It was a big decision/risk for us to use MUS in case the homeschooling thing didn't work for our family. Is there a reason you are testing or can you use a portfolio as your means of evaluation?

[HollyDay]

Again, the response to MUS surprises me. It really does have a very different scope and sequence. It doesnt work for everyone (does anything?). It is an issue with testing for many. Yet, it is so highly recommended while TT is - well - bashed. I hope the original poster finds a program that works well for their family and fills the bill for their state testing requirements.

 

Before I get flamed - I am glad we have the MUS dvds up through Epsilon at our house. We use them as backup for our BJU program for my youngest. I am also very glad we used TT 7 this year. It worked great for our family and my dd is grasping the concepts well - finally. What a great thing homeschool is! We can mix and match and fit the individual needs of each child.

[Mamabyrd]

Steve Demme addresses the standardized test issue on the MUS website: http://mathusee.com/faqs.html Scroll down to "How do students score on achievement tests" and then click on "comments from Steve Demme."

 

MUS is a complete program but it doesn't follow the standard scope and sequence. It was not written to follow the public school model of math - a mile wide and an inch deep. Students focus on one main topic (with other things thrown in too) per year and are expected to fully master and understand those concepts before moving to the next book.

 

I used MUS: Primer for age 4, Alpha for K, Beta for 1st. My dd went to public school this year for 2nd and scored above average in math on her IOWA test. I think working a year ahead of schedule helped but MUS really is terrific for establishing mathematical thinking early on. I use it until 3rd grade and then switch but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend MUS to anyone. It IS a complete program and the kids will learn all they need to know by the time they finish. It is possible standardized test scores won't reflect that but that is only because MUS follows a different S&S than is presented on standardized tests, not because MUS fails to teach.

[Hen]

we switched to MUS this year, after using a spiral approach- I love the program, my kids love it, and for the first time I do not get groans over math.

 

Saying that, I was some concerned that my oldest seemed to being doing fractions for Epsilon- and only fractions (tho I could see she was beginning to understand working with them in a way she did not using her last curr.) and my next oldest was doing mostly multiplication after struggling all last year with her old curr. to master the steps for long division...I was worried she would forget the steps we worked so hard to learn. We have to do testing every year, so I went out and bought them each a daily math review workbook for their grade level. I think this solutions works because it is not heaping another whole math curr. on top of what they are doing with MUS - which I think would burn them out, but the math review is a few problems everyday and I can remind them how to do things or give a quick explanation on something new- so at least they will be familiar with some concepts on the standardized tests.

 

Math U see is a different approach, but I think it is grouped together the way it is for a reason, and I am very pleased with how well my kids are doing.

I think if you stay with MUS, even if the test results aren't high in the lower grades, you will be very pleased with the results in the latter grades.

[genie]

Yet, it is so highly recommended while TT is - well - bashed.

 

Pure speculation here, but maybe the saving grace for Math U See is that they don't put grade levels on their products and Teaching Textbooks does? If it's not clearly labeled a "2nd Grade Program" it is much harder to justify comparing it side-by-side with some other curriculum. (A really smart move on MUS's part?) Whereas TT does put grade levels (or stages such as Algebra 1) that some people find to be "off" when compared to other curricula. Just a guess, but I agree that it is a little paradoxical.

[Donna T.]

Wow, are there states that require achievement testing for first and second graders? That is awfully young. I guess we're really blessed. We are in Alabama and we aren't required to do any testing... at all. I do plan to have my children take standardized tests but not until 5th grade or later.

 

We love MUS. I don't think it's lacking in any way. My sons enjoy math, they don't stress out about math at all, and they are able to take what they have learned in MUS and expand it. My oldest son knows alot of multiplication because of all the skip counting and it tooks me all of five minutes to explain to him how that relates to division.

 

I think MUS gives a very strong foundation and I've found it easy to expand anything that I've wanted to expand on just by giving a little explanation. One of the things that I've loved most about using MUS is the way that it has helped my sons to retain what they have learned. We go whole weeks (such as this week when we are having work done to our house and are going on vacation, too) without doing any math at all (I'm fairly relaxed with math when they are k, first, second) and they don't forget anything they've learned with MUS. I've never had to back up and reteach anything.

 

Yes, the scope is narrower than most math programs but it's foundational to the strong conceptual understanding that they are developing. They really get it! I guess if we had to test, I may think differently about it.

[Marie in Oh]

We do IOWA testing every year, we use the Scoring High test prep books, and my kids are always in the 90th percentile for math. Maybe it isn't the program for you, but you can't say it isn't complete as many use it successfully.

[HollyDay]

Pure speculation here, but maybe the saving grace for Math U See is that they don't put grade levels on their products and Teaching Textbooks does? If it's not clearly labeled a "2nd Grade Program" it is much harder to justify comparing it side-by-side with some other curriculum. (A really smart move on MUS's part?) Whereas TT does put grade levels (or stages such as Algebra 1) that some people find to be "off" when compared to other curricula. Just a guess, but I agree that it is a little paradoxical.

 

Very interesting observation! You could very well be on to something. Also, I think MUS has been around for quite a while and has always been very homeschool friendly. TT is quite new. Again, the beauty of homeschool is the diversity and the richness of what is available.

[browneyedgirl]

Thanks everyone for setting me straight. I was just very frustrated this morning when I was seeing what my first grader didn't know and last week doing the same with my 6th grader who didn't know what the radius of a circle is (We are doing Epsilon with her).

 

I'll be sure and let Steve know how you guys did set me straight ;>)

[browneyedgirl]

Donna T. to answer your question we are in Mississippi and no the state does not require testing. I am testing because I want to make sure I am not doing my children an injustice by not teaching what they should know by now. I.E. if my children are failing then I am not doing my job. They both previously went to private school and tested well above their grade level. Anyway, it is my personal choice to test.

[Sue G in PA]

it is not how ps children are taught...typically. This, being our first year hsing independently, and able to choose our own curriculum...I chose Saxon for all my dc (based on recommendations from WTM and friends). My dd11 and ds8 do very well with Saxon's spiral approach. Both are "math minded" kids. My ds9 is struggling and after months of grappling w/ the question "should we switch"...I decided to try MUS. My ds6 also did not like Saxon so we switched him as well. Ds6 is starting Alpha, while I put ds9 in Gamma. I turned on the DVD today (we haven't gotten the student book yet for gamma) and ds9 was riveted to the screen watching Mr. Demme teach the problems. He looked at me and said, "Thanks for getting this for me!". Wow! Almost made my cry. Saxon made him cry. *I* love Saxon, don't get me wrong, but I'm a "math minded" person, too! This is what my plan is: Get through the first several lessons of MUS (which ds will likely sail through) and then start supplementing w/ the remainder of his Saxon 54 text. 4 days of MUS and 1 day of Saxon. Why? B/c I like the review in Saxon. It's not b/c I don't think MUS is complete. You just have to stick w/ it and get used to a new sort of approach to learning math. I like Steven Demme's philosophy of learning math and that he realizes that the real reason for learning math is to APPLY IT to everyday life! Plus? I met Steven Demme in person and heard him speak on MUS as well as parenting and life in general and just adore him! He's a great guy. Good luck!

[Another Lynn]

I have one ds in gamma and one in alpha. My oldest is 3rd grade and will take his first standardized test next week (my choice - not required) - Not that you asked, but I'm testing now for two (or more) reasons - I want him to start having the experience/practice of doing it and I want a benchmark so that testing the next couple years will be more meaningful.

 

To prepare him I got a test practice book over a month ago and began going through it. Though I already knew MUS's scope and sequence was different than public schools, I still began to be concerned about the number of topics he didn't have any exposure to. I began to doubt my choice of MUS as our curriculum - should I look for something more rigorous, etc. At the hs conference I went to a few weeks ago I looked at other math programs: horizons, saxon, singapore, others (it's a bit of a blur now!). Some I just opened up to a page and almost immediately shut the book - the pages made me dizzy - I can't imagine how over-stimulating/confusing they would be to my dc. So I found myself ultimately very happy with MUS. I DO plan to increase our speed drills using other resources and to push them through MUS more quickly (as long as they are mastering as they should). I may supplement a bit (bought a cheap workbook about fractions for my 3rd ds), but not with an entire extra curriculum.

 

So, that's the journey I took and the conclusion I reached. Hope it helps a bit.

[stephanie]

Ok, this was our first year homeschooling. We decided to go with Math U See on reccomendation of a friend. Well almost thru with the year we are getting ready for Stanford Achievement Tests and using the Scoring High to prep. I realize how lacking MUS is!! My first grader has spent all year on addition facts and subtraction and didn't remember things like borrowing and carrying, measuring, tally marks...etc. Things I believe he learned last year in Private School using Abeka math. Using Scoring High has given me the opportunity to teach or review things he didn't know.

 

But needless to say I am upset that MUS doesn't say "we are not a complete math program....you should use us to supplement..." or something to that effect. They left way too much out. We were planning to do Abeka math over the summer but still now I am worried my kids won't do well on math on the SAT.:001_huh:

 

I can't begin to tell you how much MUS has helped my ds13. He's always done Saxon, but this year he struggled b/c he wasn't mastering concepts. So we started MUS, and he is now blooming with it. He finally gets his math. Yes, it does take math at a different pace and scope, but I've noticed that eventually they do cover the concepts. I've even pulled out a Saxon worksheet just to see if he could still do it, and he did wonderfully on it! MUS even taught him easier, more logical ways for him to understand and figure out math. You have to keep in mind that you dc is taking a test for ps kids, following ps scope in math. Hopefully, you can find something that works. I just wanted you to know how much MUS has benefited us!

[Carolyn]

I Tried using MUS, for 8th grade with my very math challenged son as I am also very weak in this area.

His Stanford achievement test that year fell way below grade level. Granted, he never scored really high in this area previously, but never below grade level.

I have a girlfriend who uses it, she calls them all the time for support, and thats ok for her... she loves it..

My point :I hated it, and am glad mid way through the year I resisted the temptation to buy the next level for the following year. But what works for U doesnt always work for me... vice versa.

[Dani n Monies Mom]

Thanks everyone for setting me straight. I was just very frustrated this morning when I was seeing what my first grader didn't know and last week doing the same with my 6th grader who didn't know what the radius of a circle is (We are doing Epsilon with her).

 

I'll be sure and let Steve know how you guys did set me straight ;>)

 

Side note: DD (6th gr.) is also doing Epsilon this year and we are on lesson 27, which teaches pi, radius, circumference, and area of a circle.

 

But what's really exciting is that dd is already doing algebra with this program. (became very clear around lesson 24 or so) By the time she gets to algebra it'll be so familiar that it won't be intimidating. I picked up an algebra dvd from the library, and the first lessons were things dd has been doing for several years with MUS.

 

So, just wanted to add this side note as an encouragement.

 

Hth,

Ava

[Sunshine State Sue]

my 6th grader who didn't know what the radius of a circle is (We are doing Epsilon with her).

 

Epsilon is all about fractions.

 

The radius of a circle is introduced in the perfect spot - when you have learned enough about fractions and practiced enough to find the area and circumference of a circle. To find the area of a circle, you need to know Area = pi times radius squared. Pi is 22/7 in this book. It's a perfect application of the need to know how/why/when to multiply fractions. Why would the radius of a circle be introduced any earlier? So it could be forgotten?

 

Zeta is all about decimals. The circumference and area of a circle is again found. This time using pi = 3.14.

 

I have been amazed over and over and over again at the beauty, simplicity, and wisdom of the scope and sequence of MUS.

Ah, but did you notice that the radius of a circle is introduced