Legal-ethical question...

[6packofun]

Back story: Our landlord asked us to move out right after we got back from vacation and gave us the minimum 30 days. She said she wanted to sell the house.

 

There wasn't a lot of time for us to pack and work on the house, but we cleaned it to the best of our abilities. The short time-frame made it impossible for us to repair some of the small things we wanted to take care of before leaving, so we were prepared to have them deducted from our $1000 sec. deposit. We figured about $500-600 to account for labor costs and replacement parts of some stuff.

 

We gave the landlady's lawyer, per law, our forwarding address so they could send us an itemized list of the repairs and their charges to be deducted from the sec. deposit. She has, by law, 30 days after we gave back the keys to send us this itemized list, with receipts (if necessary to show what she paid and to show depreciation of carpet, etc.)

 

We received a letter on the 21st that has only general repairs listed ("damage to floors"--uh, which ones?) and NOT itemized, to the tune of $3100. (She has put the house back up for rent, not sale, btw, but that's just an added goody here. LOL)

 

My question is whether or not we should bother to contact her or her lawyer to say that she is NOT adhering to the law by giving us a complete list. She can't simply list things without showing what part of the total amount she's asking for those items. There are things ranging from an outlet cover to "damaged light fixtures"! lol And not all of the few things listed are legit and we have photo/video proof.

 

The reason I'm in a quandry is that we have the legal right to take her to court as soon as those 30 days are up and get our *entire* security deposit back because she didn't follow the law. Now, we want to use this as a bargaining tool, shall we say, because we DON'T want to go to court. We think we should pay what is right, but NO more and she has been trying to take advantage of us over and over during the last month. (Asking for the last month's rent and threatening us with eviction even though we PAID last month's rent when we moved in--separate from the sec. deposit and first month's rent. We had to send a copy of the lease to her lawyer because she claimed she had no idea we paid it.)

 

So should we feel an obligation to tell her that she's not complying fully with the law, or let her take responsibility for knowing landlord-tenant law in our state and take it from there? We're not under any obligation to *request* this itemized list of repairs, either. We could easily wait until the end of this month and then let her know that she blew it and now we're only interested in paying for damages WE know we made (so that we can fulfill our honest obligation) or take her to court if she's not satisfied. What do you think?

Edited August 23, 2010 by 6packofun
.,.,

[Jean in Newcastle]

Since you sound like an honest person who wanted to pay for the legitimate repairs, I would ask for an itemized account. I would also highlight those that you know about that are not legitimate and ask her to amend the list and take those off, citing that you have proof that you will admit as evidence if you end up having to take her to court. I would remind her that if you do not get this information within the proper timeframe that you will take her to court and it will be within your rights to get the entire deposit back. And I would cc. her attorney.

[6packofun]

I'm mainly trying to avoid the back and forth. I don't feel like I should have to explain the legal procedure for depreciating the carpet, for example, so she probably won't do it properly, we'll have to go back and forth arguing about charges, etc. We ARE letting her keep most or all of the security deposit depending on actual charges whether she complies with the law or not. Nothing she listed that is legit wasn't on our list of legit damages anyhow.

 

Hmm. Not the answer I was looking for, Jean!!! Kidding. ;) Dh and I will discuss and pray about it and probably send her a letter. Just trying to decide how much or little to say, kwim?

[Corraleno]

Since you sound like an honest person who wanted to pay for the legitimate repairs, I would ask for an itemized account. I would also highlight those that you know about that are not legitimate and ask her to amend the list and take those off, citing that you have proof that you will admit as evidence if you end up having to take her to court. I would remind her that if you do not get this information within the proper timeframe that you will take her to court and it will be within your rights to get the entire deposit back. And I would cc. her attorney.

:iagree:

If you spell it out exactly as Jean suggested, and you CC her lawyer, that will probably convince her that you know what you're talking about and are serious about pursuing it (even if you aren't), and she will leave the rest to her lawyer (who I presume does know what the law is). She may not want the hassle either, and given that it could potentially cost her a bundle in legal fees and she would forfeit the deposit in the end, maybe she will just agree to keep the $1000 (which it seems you expected to lose anyway), and call it even.

 

Jackie

[Guest Katia]

I just watched a "Judge Judy" episode that had something similar in regards to the itemized list. According to JJ, it is the landlord's responsibility to know the laws and to follow them. One gal requested the itemized list for the deposit, and JJ said she shouldn't have done that.

 

Now, what you should do, or what you want to do....I can't tell you that. Just thought I'd share what JJ said on tv, for whatever it's worth. Personally, I think I'd expect the landlord to know the laws of renting property and if they didn't know them and/or follow them, then I'd be taking them to court. Even if you do end up taking her to court, you can still offer to pay for the damages you know you incurred. Then, your problem of her over-charging you would be solved legally and you would still be doing the right thing.

[Corraleno]

She has put the house back up for rent, not sale, btw, but that's just an added goody here.

I would also check what the law is in your state about evicting sitting tennants — I think in some areas the rules for moving tenants out are different if the owner will be occupying the property themselves or selling it, versus re-renting it. Is it possible she evicted you under false pretenses because there was some legal advantage in pretending she was selling it? I remember that happened to a friend once, who was evicted on the grounds that the owner wanted to move back in, and then they rented it to someone else (at a much higher rent than my friend was paying), and the friend took them to court and won. I have no idea whether that would apply in your case, but it would be worth checking into.

 

Jackie

[Ravin]

I think you've already played nice and she's made clear she isn't. I say, get ready to take her to court to keep your deposit.

 

I'd also check into whether it was legal to ask you to move out because she was selling and then turning around and renting again. You might be able to sue her for the cost of the move.

 

People who treat you fairly deserve fair treatment in return. Those who play dirty pool might have a pool cue over the head coming to them.

[6packofun]

She did not evict us, she "terminated tenancy", which in our state means she can ask us to move out for any reason she likes and only give us 30 days. She threatened to evict when we needed a few more days beyond the 30 to move stuff and clean. (But we paid her prorated rent for those 4 days on our own without being asked...she deposited the check and in the recent legal letter her lawyer ASKS US FOR A CHECK FOR THE AMOUNT WE JUST GAVE HER AND SHE TOOK!!) Sorry if I wasn't clear about the eviction thing; she definitely did NOT have cause to evict us.

[6packofun]

I'm not so sure her lawyer *does* know...the letter that wasn't itemized came from his office! Unfortunately, I think he's taking advantage of her by dragging it out when she has no case and it's kind of crummy. I want to alternately warn her and sue her. LOL!! (We don't plan to sue most likely, just kidding)

[Lawana]

Do you sense bad faith on the landlord's part? Have you had a history of problems with her?

[kokotg]

I'm with Judge Judy :)

 

You're willing to pay for the damages you believe you're responsible for. She has the right to ask for more and try to show why she thinks you should pay it, but you don't have any obligation to help her do this.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Your landlord ought to be aware of her responsibilities. If she hasn't read up on the 30 day/itemized/receipts/etc law - not your problem. I've been through this once with a landlord - similar type law, wasn't followed. We got our entire damage deposit back because the landlord didn't follow through on his responsibilities.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We sold a rental a couple of years ago. The buyer then tried to sue us for problems that came up after the sale. The buyer was influenced by a lawyer that was trying to make a buck - through us. Our own lawyer wasn't very good (he was way too nice). I wrote a very pointed letter outlining what was and was not our responsibility, got a restraining order against the lawyer (who was calling me daily at 4 am!), and told them exactly what I was prepared to do to them in court. I took it to our lawyer and gave him some money in exchange for his signature. The buyers and their sue-happy lawyer desisted;)

 

You don't have to outline the law for them, but you could send them a letter telling them to look up the law themselves, and that if they don't comply with said law, that you will take them to court for the entire sum. Or you could just take them to court - but I suggest this because you said that you really didn't want to go to court (we didn't either).

[SonshineLearner]

I would wait until her time was up, since SHE'S the one responsible for following the law. I'm honest, too, but I feel that in a case like this, you should allow her to do her job.... and you to do yours.

:)

[6packofun]

It's hard to say, but we want to err on the side of compassion because she's getting older and not "all there", I'm afraid. She's forgotten conversations and from others we've talked to she is declining--BUT why isn't someone advising the woman to sell and not continue renting if that's the case? Her family really isn't helping her much and she sends her son who (sorry, this is fact, not gossip) was a drug addict and looks like a vagrant.

 

She came for an inspection of the home a few times and basically sat there on the couch rather than looking at the house and she even asked dh to tie her shoe for her because she couldn't bend to do it. :confused: She and her lawyer do NOT seem to be communicating or he/she are outright dishonest. Twice now they have asked for money that they have already received from us. Grrr. We really want it all over with, but don't know the best way to proceed. I think we may wait until legal aid calls us back and we can speak to someone with experience in this area.

[6packofun]

That's a very good suggestion. We could send a letter requesting the itemized list and just mention that she should familiarize (re-familiarize) herself with the Landlord-Tenant law in our state. I'll think about that--thanks!

[Lawana]

Ahh. This could explain a lot. How unfortunate for her, and you, that she doesn't seem to be getting the advice and help she needs. It makes one wonder if someone else is behind the requests for monies paid and exhorbitant "damages." Or maybe someone is leading her to believe *you* are not acting in good faith. The action that would be charitable to an aging woman might lead you into being a "sucker" for someone else's greed.

 

I agree with OPs who have recommeded writing a letter indicating that you have been, and will continue to act in good faith, but that you know what the law is, and intend to make full use of it. And hope that will keep you out of court!

[Corraleno]

oops, duplicate post

Edited August 24, 2010 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

I've been wondering about why Judge Judy would tell a tenant that she should NOT have requested an itemized list, and something occurred to me: If you tell the landlord that the law requires her to submit an itemized list by a specific date, and she supplies you with an itemized list that is totally whack — full of made-up charges, damage you never did, inflated repair costs, etc. — then does the whole nature of the dispute change from "Landlord did not follow the law/tenant gets full deposit back" to "Landlord and tenant disagree about charges, and need to hash it out in court"?

 

Because if that were the case, then I wouldn't say a WORD to the landlord until after the 30 days expires, then send her a letter, CC'd to her lawyer, pointing out that she failed to follow the law and therefore you are due your entire security deposit back. Then I would offer to pay a list of reasonable damages, as a good faith gesture, and tell her that if she refunds the remaining amount (e.g. $200 if you feel you did $800 in damage), then you will avoid taking her to court. If you really don't mind giving up the full $1000, then you could just offer to let her keep it in return for a signed letter from her acknowledging that you have paid in full and do not owe anything else.

 

Jackie

[MSNative]

Wait for legal aid. Laws in each state vary so much that what works for one person won't work for another. Spend your waiting time documenting everything and getting organized. You may also want to do a little searching on the lawyer she's using. Could have a history of this sort of thing. Not that you can necessarily use that, but at least it could let you know who's pulling the fast one.

 

Sorry you're going thru this.

[distancia]

I don't practice law. I do know, though, that when someone cashes a check (like your landlord did) that means he/she has accepted the contract, so to speak. Meaning that obviously the terms of the arrangement were acceptable enough to her that she didn't think anything was wrong enough to contest your payment.

 

Having been a landlord myself, I know that I would never have cashed a check from the tenant until AFTER the house was thoroughly cleaned.

 

I suspect that your landlord wanted you out so she could move someone else in, either 1) because she was trying to accommodate a friend or family member or 2) she thought she could get a better deal from someone else.

 

Lastly, I think she is not only charging you for the clean-up costs she paid out for you, but improvements to the property. THAT is not your responsibility and nor should yo be charged for it. Therefore you need an itemized list.

[6packofun]

YES, that's exactly what I was thinking...but on the other hand, I don't *want* to just take advantage and not pay *anything*, kwim? Ugh, it's hard! LOL

[Night Elf]

I agree with the others who say to wait out the 30 days. I can't help but see dollar signs here. On one hand, you pay $3100 which means the $1000 you already paid and an additional $2100? Egads! Or you receive your $1000 back that you can use on your next place. I realize you want to be fair and pay for the damages you did and I think that's commendable, but I also believe there is something fishy going on with this lady and her lawyer. I understand you believe she is 'not all there' but that doesn't seem to be fair for you to get the short end of the stick because she's not competent to handle her own affairs and her lawyer and family don't seem to be helping.

 

I don't know anything about law but I'm quite surprised that asking for an itemized statement, something you are required to receive according to the law, would cause trouble. I would probably phone the lawyer and speak calmly and logically that you would like to see an itemized list because your video footage doesn't show that much damage beyond what you already calculated. That doesn't sound threatening to me, but just a fact that you would like to verify. But hey, if asking is going to get you into trouble, I'd wait it out like the others and really plan to go to court. I can't imagine going to court but for such a high sum of money, I would certainly find out more about it.

 

I'm also surprised that Legal Aid would phone you back in a short time. That's wonderful! When I used them for my divorce, it took them over 2 months for my initial interview and then an additional 5 months before my divorce was final. I think that's way excessive but they told me they were backlogged with so many clients and my file had to wait in turn like everyone else's files.

[poodlemama]

WOW $3,100! Did you totally trash the place? As a landlord myself, I'd say they are totally out of line! You ask for a deposit to cover damages and of course most of the little things are to be expected as normal ware and tear (which is why landlords get a nice tax benefit). If they didn't ask for a large enough deposit that was there mistake (I know because I've made this mistake).

[Harry Nelson in Charlotte]

Don't let the landlord's immorality of the unjust and vague request for $3100 affect your morality of having to pay for what you legitimately owe. Stay on the up and up along the way. Protect yourself, legally, to be sure, but still do the right thing.

 

 

The fact that she made you move out within 30 days was, I assume, within the terms of the lease. So, that's just irritating to you, but not illegal.

 

My suggestion:

 

Go ahead and send a letter as soon as possible stating that:

1) You received her letter requesting $3100 in damages.

2) As you know, your letter does not comply with TX law for documenting renter damages. (No reason to go into detail into what does comply - that's her bag.)

3) That said, you want to leave on amiable terms, and that you certainly understand wanting to avoid the level of effort and expense required to send a fully compliant damage statement. And, barring the fully compliant damage statement within 30 days, you do understand that we are entitled to our entire security deposit back.

4) So, in your own estimation(and, be really honest here), you owe approximately $750 for the following things:

a)...

b)...

c)...

5) Please return the remainder of $250 to us within 15 days(or 30 days, whatever the law is there).

 

 

Then, wait for the 30 day clock to run out, and it should just drop, and you shouldn't expect to get the $250 back.

 

 

Bottom line:

 

Don't be stupid, but pay what you owe.

 

If you've ever decried situational ethics or moral relativism, here's your chance to stand up for doing the right thing...

 

 

And don't let dollar signs sway you from doing that.

[6packofun]

LOL No. An outlet needed to be replaced and some other stuff like that, but we even patched small holes in the walls (even *staple* holes) and sanded them nicely before leaving. The carpet WAS stained pretty bad in one area, which was the main damage IMO, but with the proper depreciation after 8 years of living there, it CANNOT be more than a couple hundred at most. I'm not even sure it was new when we moved in. So she thinks she's taking the entire $1000 sec. deposit and then wants $2100 more! LOL

[simka2]

It sounds like you are a very nice person. I think you can still be a compassionate person but work within the confines and healthy boundaires of the legal code.

 

I know you feel compassion, but this is not the place to muddy the waters with good intentions that can turn around and bite you! I'm sure that is what the Judge Judy thing was in refrence to. When you volenteer up info, after a lawyer has gotten involved, things have the potential to get weird.

 

Wait for legal aid...or at least run the letter you are considering sending, by legal aid, and then send it...makeing sure it is cc to her and the lawyer and legal aid.

 

Sometimes there is a misconception that holding someone to the law...is not being nice. Don't worry, you guys are being very "nice" about this. It is great that you are willing to pay for what is legitimately yours, but there are other issues now involved. Like were you forced to leave under fals pretenses.

 

One other thing...whenever we have rented...we do the itemized statment as a walk thru with the landlord. That way nothing comes up as a surprise! Good fences, make good neighbors!

[hornblower]

It's business, not huggy-feely 'let's all be friends!', 'I want to be a nice person!' time.

 

I'd clarify my exact obligations, just to be sure of my legal standing.

 

If this

 

we have the legal right to take her to court as soon as those 30 days are up and get our *entire* security deposit back because she didn't follow the law

 

 

is true & accurate, I'd do this.

 

You can all color me heartless ^&*($ now :D -

 

& I think it's kind of funny that I'm the small L liberal living in a socialist country who believes in looking out for #1. Self-interest is one of the pillars of laissez faire economics after all.