Shock collars for dogs...

[Alexandra]

Is this something that is justified for nuisance behavior like rough play, mounting or barking to be let in?

I am just so bothered by the idea and wanted to know what others think. I am not planning on using one but I am asking on behalf of someone else's dog ( I have posted a million times about this dog - ya'all are probably sick of me. Hornblower I should come mow your lawn - Astrid's too!).

Thanks for all feedback.

[Tammy]

for any 'bad' dog behavior.....there are better ways to train the dog than to use something like that.

 

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[WishboneDawn]

I think I'd only use it in issues of safety like a dog running on the road, chasing cars, that sort of thing.

[Hunter's Moon]

I don't like those or those shock fences.

 

I am not comparing children to dogs, but children aren't taught through pain, and when they are the results aren't usually that great.

 

ETA: Not bashing anyone who uses them, I just disagree. I hope I didn't offend anyone!

Edited June 28, 2010 by BeatleMania

[cajunrose]

We have a bark collar for our basset for when we aren't home. He sits outside and barks and barks and barks. He does not with the collar. He doesn't wear it when we are home. We also have an electric wire running around the base of my wooden fence because he is also a digger when we are gone from home...he has gotten out several times. We also have problems with our neighbor's 6 dogs digging under the fence trying to get at our dogs...that stopped that as well.

 

It may not be perfect, but it works for our family and our dogs are no worse for the wear. I can't leave them inside b/c the basset tears up everything in sight. Can't kennel him when we are gone b/c he tears up the carpet under him and the bed that's in there and chews up the wood baseboards. He's quite destructive (he was abandoned as a puppy..he has issues..rofl.)

[2cents]

We have one and I used to hate the idea of them but it worked for our dog. She is big and smart enough to know when she could get away with bad behavior. She was bullying the cats to the degree that we were concerned for their safety. Our cats are very friendly and trusting so they didn't avoid her either. We saw that Caesar used one once for a cat bullying issue. We tried it and within 2-3 uses, the dog realized she wasn't to get rough with the cats. I wouldn't want to overuse the collar but for serious issues, I see the value.

[mom2jjka]

They have bark collars that release a harmless (but unpleasant) squirt of citronella in the face of a barking dog. I think they are much more humane than the shock collars.

[hornblower]

Hornblower I should come mow your lawn - Astrid's too!).

 

 

:lol: remember to pooper scoop first.........

 

re the electric collars - I don't use one.

 

One of my dogs is a gundog & hunt dog training in the US is pretty much ALL based on e-collar use. Bleh. Hwvr I'm on an email list where folks are training using the European methods (where e-collars are banned) & clicker training. Even in the US now, some people are starting to title & hunt with positively trained dogs so we know it can be done (of course it's been done in Europe all along but some people argue that their hunt competitions & even real hunts are so different that you can't compare them.....)

 

I've felt an e-collar zap - put it on my arm & had someone zap me. If I were convinced that it would be quick fix for one of my problems (with my other dog - the malamute x gsd), I might be persuaded but I spent a long time chatting about it with one of the local trainers who trains exclusively with them - & I left unconvinced. In the end, I decided to stick with positive methods for re-training her.

 

It's very complicated & there are several different ways that they're used so it's not something to rush into. There's a really large training franchise which uses them & I think even if you wanted to use the collar, their method is completely ass backwards. (they use low level stim all the time & release the pressure when the dog is doing the bhvr; the other way - & I think fundamenatlly more logical - is to use them as a clear punisher)

 

I'm not convinced they're necessary, & I'm definitely not convinced they belong in the hands of 'average' owners. One problem is that once you go the punishment route for behaviour modification, the problem is what do you do if the dog doesn't respond to a level 1 stim? Crank it up to 2? Keep going till you hit 10? Some dogs will shut down on level 1. Some dogs will not respond even to a 10 & dogs can get scars on their necks from the shocks....

 

 

My gundog btw is a rescue & every trainer who has set eyes on him says he's suffering from e-collar post traumatic stress. Some gun dog trainers keep the collars on stim all the time & don't release the shock until the dog points or retrieves or casts or whatever. The result is that I have a dog that is a total psycho mess outside, trying to figure out what I want him to do. He's also terrified of any small black thing pointed at him - so I can't take photos of him. That e collar remote being pointed at him really took its toll.....

 

 

So those are my rambling thoughts on this :)

 

ETA - I just wanted to clarify that as a positive trainer I really, really question the use of force in training dogs. I don't deny that a well timed correction can affect behaviour but I'm in principle opposed to using punishers & would rather stay +R quadrant. (as oppoosed to to -R, +P, -P quadrants)

 

I have heard of really skilled people who use them as a proofer - they TRAIN the behaviour first without a collar. They raise criteria gradually & then when they get to really high level criteria (say long down stay at 50 feet, then release the bunnies, birds, some rabid dogs, and toddlers with ice cream cones LOL) they use the collar to say - "I really DID mean stay. Don't you dare to move a muscle." I have no doubt that this 'works' with most dogs. (If you miscalculate your dog's sensitivity, the dog will bolt. Or develop a fear of other dogs or toddlers with ice cream......or submissively urinate and shake when you point a black remote at them.....)

AND I also think you CAN achieve this level of steadiness with other methods. It does take more time though.

 

So the main 'real' reason for using them for many people is expediency. "I will use this thing to inflict pain on you because I don't have the time to explain this to you any other way." I just can't go along with that reasoning.

Edited June 29, 2010 by hornblower
more rambling

[KidsHappen]

When we first got our Golden, he was only one year old, he still a big puppy, not fixed, very stubborn and head strong and not very well trained. First of all, we got him fixed right away. Then we immediately set up training with a behavioralist right away. We started with clicker training and made some progress with that on basic things, we added lots of prositive re-enforcement for desirable behavior and total ignoring for undesirable behavior. The problem was that he was a large dog and we did not have him absolutely under our control which was important because everytime we went outside people swarmed around him to hug and pet. Plus he got distracked by other dogs out on their walks and we were having a hard time controlling this.

 

So we added a choke/pinch collar which got walking him under controll. No more trying to run off or not walking at a heel or not harving bark contests or worse with other neighbor's dogs and lots sitting kindly to be petted. We still do lots of fun training and play, rubbing, walking and such but there were still a few issue that had to be dealt with. He was still not interacting well with the cats, or he would eat something we told him not to. Him simply wasn't submitting himself to us enough for me to have absolute faith in what he would do in a given circumstances.

 

So then I endlessly research shock collars and decided to get one. This one had both a reminder tone and then a mild shock if the behavior continutes. My hubby, all of my children and I have treid it out up to about level three. It is more annoying that painful. He wore the collor 24/7 for the first month, then only during the day and then less and less all the time. He probably hasn't worn it in about a month and I am quite proud to say that he is a very well trained dog. I have even noticed that the new puppy trying to imitate Jack It's like puppy school and really wild recess around here sometines. We have taught them that any time they hear the tone thay are to immediately stop what they are doing and come to us.

 

Now if I could just figure at how to train the little one because be is so different and not nearly as trainable.

Edited June 29, 2010 by KidsHappen

[kwickimom]

We use them for our hunting dogs. Our collar also has a beeper so we train them to go by the beep first. In an emergency (safety issue..running onto the road etc) we will shock them at the lowest level. They never yelp or anything, just makes them think a second and its been enough. We only use the shock as a last resort for them.

 

We also have chocolate lab that barks for a living. His bark is so loud and piercing that it echos off the neighbors garage which makes it twice as loud. He would bark all day and night if we didn't zap him now and then. He also was trained to the beep first and then a shock following the beep if need be. Usually just by having the collar on he is quiet but after a week or so he forgets it is on. And we do not zap him every single time he barks. Barking at a rabbit or a car or stranger is totally fine with me. If he is on insane bark duty and wont quiet when we yell at him, then he gets it. We have tried crating him at night to no avail, he still barks like a madman.

 

So we use them. We got the best brand and we use them very sparingly. Mainly for my dogs safety and as a last resort for the barking dog that we get complaints about and dont want to get rid of. I think if they are used correctly they are good tools.

[TammyinTN]

We got one for Ella when we first got her. She was wild due to being neglected and mistreated. We used it 1 time and that was it. I took her to hundschool where we were both trained and we use a choke collar. She is 1000% percent better than before and spoiled rotten. Her only bad behavior is when someone rings the bell or knocks..she pounces whomever is at the door. This drives me nuts so we use a leather leash and make her sit before opening the door and hold her back so she doesn't pounce anyone anymore.

[SailorMom]

I think they are appropriate if they are used when there is a safety issue.

We had a great dane mix rescue (he was about a year when we adopted him). He rushed the front door and ran out in the street anytime the door opened. Kids were too young to be able to stop him at the time. After a few close calls with cars (he was car stupid), and nothing else working, we decided we really needed a collar to teach him not to go out and run into the street.

It worked - but this same dog got out the back fence and ended up being hit on the highway anyway.

Anyway - sometimes, in some cases, they can be a good last resort.

[homeschoolally]

They have bark collars that release a harmless (but unpleasant) squirt of citronella in the face of a barking dog. I think they are much more humane than the shock collars.

 

We tried this and found it effective. I guess it depends on the temperment of the dog, but for our dog this was enough to stop barking. I'd try it before the shock collar.

[Remudamom]

We have an ACD who is tough as nails. She's a car chaser. When she goes after something I can't call her back. I used one on her, and when it's on her recall is perfect, but I don't like to leave it on her. So, I don't think they are of much use.

 

BTW, I tried it out on myself first. Almost flipped over backwards in an office chair. The kids thought it was great and wanted me to do it again.

[hornblower]

We tried this and found it effective. I guess it depends on the temperment of the dog, but for our dog this was enough to stop barking. I'd try it before the shock collar.

 

Glad it helped your dog :-)

 

I think the important thing even with any tool is that they have to be part of a training program.

 

I find some people think they can just slap on a collar/harness/halti & think the dog will be trained.

 

It's just an aversive, there's no magic about it. If the dog doesn't find the stimuli aversive (some don't) or if the behaviour is MORE rewarding than the aversive is punishing, then it won't work. It really is quite simple. They'll do what is rewarding.

[hornblower]

When she goes after something I can't call her back.

 

Really Reliable Recall - this woman has whippets & afghan hounds - independent as heck sighthounds. If she can call them off critters, so can the rest of us. This is primarily for an 'emergency' recall & you train it using an emergency recall word (not your regular daily word which is probably a fairly weak cue)

 

Training the Whistle Recall - you use a pealess whistle for it. Can be heard over long distances & for dogs who 'lose their brains', a whistle can be a much more powerful way to break through into their thinking brain.

 

Both methods have to be trained though... no magic solution here :)

[anissa]

After our large "puppy" broke my finger, my husband researched the best way to control this dog. He chose the collar. It is great. Ours has a function that allows me to give him a warning beep (the dog, not the husband:)), and that is really all he needs now. We only use it in situations where extra control may be needed like the park for a run. This is our 3rd dog and the other two were much easier to train.

[JustGin]

We have a wonderful lab/golden mix we got as a puppy. He was a bit of a challenge to train as a pup because he is not motivated by food AT ALL. With a lot of patience and a ton of learning on my part, by the time he was 2 he was well mannered and very socialized in all ways except one. If the opportunity presented itself he would bolt and lead us a merry chase. His recall "button" only worked if he knew we could reach him. Last summer after a ton of research we purchased an e-collar for him and began to train him on that. It has three buttons which can be set for a positive tone, negative tone and negative tone/zap, and an easily adjustable level of zap.

We started his training on our beach vacation and I can tell you that by the end of the trip he was able to be off lead and was recalling to the negative tone only. Over the last year he has continued to improve and now he has perfect recall without the collar. He can play in the front yard, off leash/off collar and he stays under voice control. We still put it on for walks as we want to make sure if he does decides to bolt we can quickly stop him, but I can honestly say, none of us remember the last time we had to zap him, or even use the negative tone. When we take him to an off leash area, he wears the collar so that we can recall him quietly from a distance. He recalls beautifully to the tone only. IMHO, this "tool" has helped us give our sweet doggie the freedom he did not have before. He is a large dog and it was so hard on him and us to never be able to have him off leash for fun and exercise outside of our yard. To me, the e-collar is not cruel at all, rather it gives me the ability to control him in situations where he might be a danger to himself or an annoyance to others and where voice only is, for him, ineffective. We used it to train him, and now we have it as insurance and distance recall, and it works well for us.

Edited June 29, 2010 by JustGin