So it looks like I need a writing course...

[Aubrey]

I've been drooling over CW for years. If I had to order something in the next 10 seconds, it would be that.

 

Based on ds's writing (from the other thread), I'm thinking a quick run thr CW Primer over the summer-ish, then start Aesop sometime in the fall.

 

I've heard only good things about WWE, & I'd be willing to try it w/ the right endorsement, but I did not like FLL. (Sorry.)

 

It looks like LToW is for 5th g & up--is that right? If not, should I consider it? (The price tag would suggest not.)

 

I can't seem to handle much that's on cd, dvd, etc. If it's independent, the dc can handle it fine, but I don't want an independent writing program, so all of that is to say, I doubt IEW would be a good fit for us.

 

Anything else? We've tried Writing Strands, & even dh disliked it. (He likes everything, tries to make stuff work, glues ridiculous things back together.)

[Karen in CO]

I'm doing CW next year for the older one, but I'm doing WWE1 for the little one after she finishes learning to read. I also have IEW sitting around here somewhere leftover from the oldest, but I just can't face another year of that yet.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think you'd actually like Bravewriter a lot.

 

It folds together a rich literary life, copywork, dictation, freewrites, and a system of polishing and editing work.

 

If you don't want to be all that involved yourself, you can maybe sign up for one of those online bravewriter classes. If you do, you can sign up for email reminders about what to do each day, a la Flylady--these are free.

 

Bravewriter using techniques from author workshops, and it doesn't constrict you very much. You would be able to bring in as much or as little as you wanted of your extensive prior experience.

[8filltheheart]

Didn't you say in the other thread that you had never found a writing program you liked? Maybe you should start by describing what you don't like followed by what you want.

 

FWIW, any "re-tell" type program would be the equivalent of CW. Its approach isn't really that unique until Homer.

[Aubrey]

I think you'd actually like Bravewriter a lot.

 

It folds together a rich literary life, copywork, dictation, freewrites, and a system of polishing and editing work.

 

If you don't want to be all that involved yourself, you can maybe sign up for one of those online bravewriter classes. If you do, you can sign up for email reminders about what to do each day, a la Flylady--these are free.

 

Bravewriter using techniques from author workshops, and it doesn't constrict you very much. You would be able to bring in as much or as little as you wanted of your extensive prior experience.

 

Ok, after reading around about BW--one person said it wasn't a "curriculum" but then her description of the lack of lesson plans, lack of "open & go" kind-of reminded me of MCT. I would have expected to really REALLY hate that, lol, but it's been ok w/ MCT. We just set the timer & go. Does that sound right?

 

It looks like a lot of people don't like the book as well as the classes, but I can't quite tell why. KWB looks really wonderful but pricey.

 

I can't remember why I liked the look of CW so much, but from what I've read--Radiobrain's comments in particular--BW looks like it might be perfect.

 

I wish curric were color coded. You figure out your color, & then you just follow the dots. :lol:

[Aubrey]

Didn't you say in the other thread that you had never found a writing program you liked? Maybe you should start by describing what you don't like followed by what you want.

 

FWIW, any "re-tell" type program would be the equivalent of CW. Its approach isn't really that unique until Homer.

 

"Gentle" approaches seem to be too slow. Anything that can be done in less than 15 min but requires my help makes me crazy. I guess I could just do 2 lessons instead of 1...

 

Some of the assignments have been dryer than toast. "Describe the pencil." That assignment was awful, but I can't remember specifically why. I really tried to make that one work, but when I read it aloud to dh, he just laughed & told me to get rid of it. (WS)

 

Honestly, when I've asked, I've generally gotten the response: Do it on your own. So I haven't looked at a lot, & I was nervous to spend a bunch of $, kwim?

 

But over the last few yrs I've been coming to the conclusion that...to some degree, you get what you pay for. Not nec extravagant, but not free. Kwim?

[8filltheheart]

"Gentle" approaches seem to be too slow.

Some of the assignments have been dryer than toast. "Describe the pencil." That assignment was awful, but I can't remember specifically why.

 

Considering I have owned and given away umpteen writing courses, I can even identify that as from Writing Strands and I haven't even looked at it since my oldest was in 2nd grade!!! I remember the assignment b/c I never opened the book again. It was about using as many adjs as possible to describe the pencil. I am a stickler on what I consider quality writing and lots of adjs is not one of them!

 

I have never found a program I really like, so I am not that much help. I have found ones I really don't like (IEW, CW, and WS among them).

 

One approach I have taken with my advanced 11 yo is to use texts that are intended for older kids. She used PTIW when she was in 4th grade (but it is a text that I only use parts of and never use the writing assignments. Parts of the writing instruction in the book are great, though.)

 

As a 5th grader we went through a 10th grade writing book I have. (I spend far more time actually discussing writing from the ideas presented in the texts, though, than relying on the texts themselves.)

 

Write Source is another OK resource.

 

I have never, ever used any writing assignments from a writing course, so it makes me question the value of all of them.

[H0MEFree]

:iagree:

After spending hundreds and hundreds on them- no joke- I have not found any writing courses that were good. Lots of hype though. Best writing course so far has been me going over papers and marking them up (which I hate to do) and encouraging better style and grammar then requiring a rewrite. It can be hard for the person getting the paper back, but it works.

[Aubrey]

Write Source is another OK resource.

 

I don't know about elem, but the upper level WS makes me grind my teeth together.

 

I'm relieved to hear you haven't found one you've loved, either. I was beginning to feel like something was wrong w/ me, & I just needed to suck it up. I felt that way about grammar, too, until MCT.

 

Just curious--what did you dislike about CW?

[Mommyfaithe]

Didn't you say in the other thread that you had never found a writing program you liked? Maybe you should start by describing what you don't like followed by what you want.

 

FWIW, any "re-tell" type program would be the equivalent of CW. Its approach isn't really that unique until Homer.

 

I hate writing programs. I love writing. My kids hate writing programs. My kids (mostly) love writing. Writing programs get over-complicated and burdensome. The ones I have seen (and believe me, I have purchased TONS of them over the years) are full of twaddly exercises and assignments that make me cringe.

 

I think I would probably love Classical Writing (Maybe...), but I have made a decision that if I need to spend hours learning how to use a program, I am not interested I am not willing to invest hours of time training myself to use a program when a better result can be achieved much more simply. The progym at your kids ages is mostly copy work, narration, dictation. SWB explains this process so well.

 

Get SWB's audio MP3's on writing and listen. I finally figured out what i hate about writing programs....it is the dread they make kids feel when they have to write....THEN, I feel dread in making them do it.

 

I think SWB has simplified the IEW / CW process and made it relevant for today's writer.

It is easy on Mom, the kids do not dread it, and it is so natural for such an un-natural process.

 

I am so happy with my purchase of SWB's writing lectures. They have eased my mind and conscience about the way I teach writing and have encouraged me to keep on keepin' on. She is a fantastic lecturer.

 

HTH

Faithe

Edited June 12, 2010 by Mommyfaithe

[Mommyfaithe]

:iagree:

After spending hundreds and hundreds on them- no joke- I have not found any writing courses that were good. Lots of hype though. Best writing course so far has been me going over papers and marking them up (which I hate to do) and encouraging better style and grammar then requiring a rewrite. It can be hard for the person getting the paper back, but it works.

 

:iagree:

[ElizabethB]

I didn't care for CW Primer and I like the same kinds of things you like. It was workbooky and basically just narrations and copywork, I can do that on my own with things I pick myself and integrate better. I gave it away. We did use the Aesop for Children all year long, though, and it was enjoyed by everyone. (One of the CW Primer books uses Aesop.)

 

We got this version, it's nice having a few of the stories on CD:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Aesops-Fables-Children-Read-Listen/dp/0486467708/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276301401&sr=8-1

 

The rest of the CW books look a lot different, but I haven't seen them or tried them yet, we'll probably use WWE next year along with MCT.

[Carol in Cal.]

Ok, after reading around about BW--one person said it wasn't a "curriculum" but then her description of the lack of lesson plans, lack of "open & go" kind-of reminded me of MCT. I would have expected to really REALLY hate that, lol, but it's been ok w/ MCT. We just set the timer & go. Does that sound right?

 

It looks like a lot of people don't like the book as well as the classes, but I can't quite tell why. KWB looks really wonderful but pricey.

 

I can't remember why I liked the look of CW so much, but from what I've read--Radiobrain's comments in particular--BW looks like it might be perfect.

 

I wish curric were color coded. You figure out your color, & then you just follow the dots. :lol:

 

It can be a bit overwhelming to get your arms around the whole thing.

But basically, the flylady-type reminders take care of that for you. You just do what they say every day, and you're doing the whole program. Alternatively there is a section in the back that covers what to do each day.

 

Basically you're setting up routines and then following them loosely--freewrite once a week, read poetry once a week, do readalouds and have the children read every day, do copywork every day, and do dictation once the kids are old enough. You encourage your children to verbally dictate their stories and ideas to you and write them down for them. You talk about books and movies and the news, and go to the library together. You do specific exercises from time to time to help kids notice and produce vivid writing, generally non-fiction--subject area writing or something your child is very interested in or an experience or location that resonates with the child. You select one topic to focus on in depth per month or so, and produce a truly and completely edited and polished paper about that. The book details how to do all these things, and it holds your hand for each one, but not too much (not scripted, more like 'here is the method. now try it.')

 

So, I did not use this alone, mostly because writing is so interesting and I can't help drawing from other sources, and besides, I LIKED Writing Strands (it does get better after that pencil, honest!) (although that like may leave me out of the running as an advisor to you, LOL). I occasionally used assignments from Rod and Staff if they were en pointe, and also drew from other sources as they came up, especially the whole thesis statement generation thing. We also used Junior Great Books in a coop, and occasionally DD would do an exercise from that, not too successfully as it is pretty directive, but those exercises do have good scaffolding in general.

 

But when I think about what I actually did, the Bravewriter stuff was a big part of it, and meshing it with TWTM for their methods and for their guide to literary, history, and science writing was golden for us.

[JoyfulMama]

I wish curric were color coded. You figure out your color, & then you just follow the dots. :lol:

 

Oh Aubrey... :lol: I still think you would love to follow the rainbow looking for the pot of gold at the end... :lol:

[Aubrey]

It can be a bit overwhelming to get your arms around the whole thing.

But basically, the flylady-type reminders take care of that for you. You just do what they say every day, and you're doing the whole program. Alternatively there is a section in the back that covers what to do each day.

 

Basically you're setting up routines and then following them loosely--freewrite once a week, read poetry once a week, do readalouds and have the children read every day, do copywork every day, and do dictation once the kids are old enough. You encourage your children to verbally dictate their stories and ideas to you and write them down for them. You talk about books and movies and the news, and go to the library together. You do specific exercises from time to time to help kids notice and produce vivid writing, generally non-fiction--subject area writing or something your child is very interested in or an experience or location that resonates with the child. You select one topic to focus on in depth per month or so, and produce a truly and completely edited and polished paper about that. The book details how to do all these things, and it holds your hand for each one, but not too much (not scripted, more like 'here is the method. now try it.')

 

So, I did not use this alone, mostly because writing is so interesting and I can't help drawing from other sources, and besides, I LIKED Writing Strands (it does get better after that pencil, honest!) (although that like may leave me out of the running as an advisor to you, LOL). I occasionally used assignments from Rod and Staff if they were en pointe, and also drew from other sources as they came up, especially the whole thesis statement generation thing. We also used Junior Great Books in a coop, and occasionally DD would do an exercise from that, not too successfully as it is pretty directive, but those exercises do have good scaffolding in general.

 

But when I think about what I actually did, the Bravewriter stuff was a big part of it, and meshing it with TWTM for their methods and for their guide to literary, history, and science writing was golden for us.

 

The part in bold sounds almost like what we do naturally anyway. This sounds like it might be a perfect fit.

 

But then you had to go & say you liked WS. Did you like FLL, too? :lol:

 

I'm just kidding. I really appreciate how much time you've put into describing BW. Reading the actual sites gives so much less flavor of a program than someone who's used it describing it.

[Aubrey]

Oh Aubrey... :lol: I still think you would love to follow the rainbow looking for the pot of gold at the end... :lol:

 

:glare: Do you know I started out using only WTM suggestions? I get overwhelmed w/ curric & the pressure to make the right choice, so I avoid it. That's partly why it's taken me 5 yrs of hs'ing to start making my own decisions about curric. It's been quite liberating, but I think the only non-WTM purchase I've regretted has been MUS. And since it's still on the shelf, I'm still willing to give it a chance.

 

Until this yr, I barely even read the curric boards. I like books too much not to know better than to hang out w/ bibliophiles. :lol:

[Capt_Uhura]

Carol - I'm attempting the same thing I think...a meshing of Bravewriter, MCT, WTM and I'm previewing a friend's Lost Tools of Writing.

 

The Bravewriter Hand-Holders class is similar to Kids Writes Basic IMO minus the first two weeks which consists of visual writing exercises which are outlined clearly in the Writer's Jungle. The Hand-Holders class is cheaper. But you know enough about writing that the Writer's Jungle would likely be enough.

 

However, I second SWB's three writing MP3s. She makes it sound so simple and so easy and straightforward! At $4 x 3=$12, I think you can hardly go wrong at that price. You can buy just the grammar stage writing and see what you think before buying the others.

[lisabees]

Isn't your ds the perfect age for Writing Tales? I thought a lot of people loved that one!

 

I love MCT and went through the Island and Town levels with ds14.

 

I am enjoying LTOW, but that is for older guys.

 

We have actually loved WWE also.

 

Best of luck in finding what's right for you. ;)

[Carol in Cal.]

One of my main priorities for homeschooling through middle school, instead of stopping after, say, 4th grade, has been to give my DD the space and encouragement to develop and hone her writing 'voice'.

 

Bravewriter is the only curriculum that prioritizes that. They prioritize if VERY HIGHLY. I didn't find them right away, and having found them I did not read the long binder immediately. But once I did I realized that they were articulating what I intuitively thought--that copywork, dictation, etc. as well as engaging, personal writing and exposure to excellent prose and poetry should all go hand in hand.

 

Some curricula seem to actively fight it--IEW comes to mind.

 

Writing Strands allows some space for that.

 

Rod and Staff is pretty mechanical and wooden. Their poetry is a horror, but they get the job done with the basics. I would never suggest using them alone with a really good writing student.

 

I hasten to add, a good writing voice does not necessarily mean just doing novellas. It means writing even your essays in an engaging way that draws the reader in. A high priority, and, again, one that Bravewriter alone emphasizes.

[8filltheheart]

I don't know about elem, but the upper level WS makes me grind my teeth together.

 

I'm relieved to hear you haven't found one you've loved, either. I was beginning to feel like something was wrong w/ me, & I just needed to suck it up. I felt that way about grammar, too, until MCT.

 

Just curious--what did you dislike about CW?

 

LOL.....I feel the same way about grammar, too! I started teaching grammar through their writing with #5 and she mastered enough grammar to find AG easy by mid-4th grade.

 

As for CW, I find its approach convoluted. I read through Homer and found myself wondering "why" as I went through it. I spent about 6 weeks teaching it. I kept thinking that maybe I would agree with the ideas once I started using them. I never did. I think the approach makes writing seem like a far more difficult process than it really is. I just don't think good writing is that hard to achieve and I certainly don't want to give my children that impression. CW makes it seem like solid writing skills are only attainable after doing torturous manipulations.

[Aubrey]

One of my main priorities for homeschooling through middle school, instead of stopping after, say, 4th grade, has been to give my DD the space and encouragement to develop and hone her writing 'voice'.

 

Bravewriter is the only curriculum that prioritizes that. They prioritize if VERY HIGHLY. I didn't find them right away, and having found them I did not read the long binder immediately. But once I did I realized that they were articulating what I intuitively thought--that copywork, dictation, etc. as well as engaging, personal writing and exposure to excellent prose and poetry should all go hand in hand.

 

Some curricula seem to actively fight it--IEW comes to mind.

 

Writing Strands allows some space for that.

 

Rod and Staff is pretty mechanical and wooden. Their poetry is a horror, but they get the job done with the basics. I would never suggest using them alone with a really good writing student.

 

I hasten to add, a good writing voice does not necessarily mean just doing novellas. It means writing even your essays in an engaging way that draws the reader in. A high priority, and, again, one that Bravewriter alone emphasizes.

 

Ok, I think I'm sold. And I'm a hard-sell! :D

[Colleen in NS]

I've heard only good things about WWE, & I'd be willing to try it w/ the right endorsement, but I did not like FLL. (Sorry.)

 

You do not need to use or like FLL in order to effectively use WWE. I used FLL 2 last year with WWE2 with dd, but since I already had R&S 3 grammar on my shelf from ds' 3rd grade year, I used it again. I just incorporated whatever grammar concepts she was learning into her dictations and narrations.

 

I was nervous to spend a bunch of $, kwim?

 

But over the last few yrs I've been coming to the conclusion that...to some degree, you get what you pay for. Not nec extravagant, but not free. Kwim?

 

Do you mean higher cost = better program? If so, I don't believe so. I think WWE instructor manual combined with her downloads for the higher grades are an excellent, inexpensive combo from which a parent can learn how to effectively teach writing. And you can expand or shrink the ideas to fit your day/week. Let's say you do a narration as instructed in WWE. Well, you can go on to do another narration later in the day, if you so wish, using those same instructions.

 

I think SWB has simplified the IEW / CW process and made it relevant for today's writer.

It is easy on Mom, the kids do not dread it, and it is so natural for such an un-natural process.

 

:iagree:

 

However, I second SWB's three writing MP3s. She makes it sound so simple and so easy and straightforward! At $4 x 3=$12, I think you can hardly go wrong at that price.

 

:iagree: This is what I keep saying on these types of threads - the cost is so low, the teaching is excellent and easy to understand and implement, and it's thorough and flexible. You get the "big picture," and then you can expand from there - add in a R&S writing lesson here and there if you want, add in a creative writing element if you want, add in a diagraming course if it's not in your grammar program, write more than a couple of narrations a week if you want.....the possibilities are endless, yet you have control over it if you understand the whole picture.

 

writing 'voice'.

 

Bravewriter is the only curriculum that prioritizes that. They prioritize if VERY HIGHLY. I didn't find them right away, and having found them I did not read the long binder immediately. But once I did I realized that they were articulating what I intuitively thought--that copywork, dictation, etc. as well as engaging, personal writing and exposure to excellent prose and poetry should all go hand in hand.

 

It means writing even your essays in an engaging way that draws the reader in. A high priority, and, again, one that Bravewriter alone emphasizes.

 

How does BW prioritize voice? (I haven't looked at it) I'm just wondering because I read in WWE a small blurb about how diagraming helps to develop style by forcing a person to order his thoughts. I thought this was related to "voice." And I was also thinking that when a student studies progym exercises later on, this would help develop his own "voice" or style, too? Thoughts?

 

CW makes it seem like solid writing skills are only attainable after doing torturous manipulations.

 

This explains why I felt completely overwhelmed and stupid when I looked at CW.

[Aubrey]

Do you mean higher cost = better program? If so, I don't believe so. I think WWE instructor manual combined with her downloads for the higher grades are an excellent, inexpensive combo from which a parent can learn how to effectively teach writing. And you can expand or shrink the ideas to fit your day/week. Let's say you do a narration as instructed in WWE. Well, you can go on to do another narration later in the day, if you so wish, using those same instructions.

 

No, definitely not. I mean winging it can be a stressful, teary disaster. :D I did WTM 1st ed rec's for the first few mos of the first yr for everything. SOTW was not expensive, but it was a relief.

 

Science was harder. It was expensive, & nothing seemed to offer real books or WTM sequence, so I kept doing it on my own. When I finally bit the bullet & bought NOEO, I was delighted.

 

Grammar & writing have been the hardest for me, because w/ a degree in lit & an MA in teaching writing to boot, I really feel like I should be able to wing it. But I've found that w/ curric, my creativity has the space & energy to flourish. W/out it, I'm too worn-out getting stuff together to do a good job at anything.

[Colleen in NS]

No, definitely not. I mean winging it can be a stressful, teary disaster. :D

 

I really feel like I should be able to wing it. But I've found that w/ curric, my creativity has the space & energy to flourish. W/out it, I'm too worn-out getting stuff together to do a good job at anything.

 

Aha, now what you said makes sense to me. You are now willing to pay for a program that will eliminate your stress. :) Not to keep pushing WWE (cuz I saw your thread about BW), but simply to illustrate that I understand: WWE and SWB's lectures were to me what BW might be to you - flexible structure! I did WTM narrations and dictations/copywork for years, but always felt like I was floundering and didn't know what I was doing (and that feeling continued even through my first year of teaching outlining - until I heard those lectures). Now I don't. Good luck with making your choices!

[iona]

what is NOEO?

thanks

[Carol in Cal.]

 

How does BW prioritize voice? (I haven't looked at it) I'm just wondering because I read in WWE a small blurb about how diagraming helps to develop style by forcing a person to order his thoughts. I thought this was related to "voice." And I was also thinking that when a student studies progym exercises later on, this would help develop his own "voice" or style, too? Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

I seem to remember an early critique of IEW by SWB saying that students who use it seem to all come out sounding the same. It's a great program, but it can overwhelm the natural development of a good writer by being a little gimmicky. My DD took an IEW class in a coop setting this year, and it was fine because she is already a good writer, so it just added some tools to her toolchest. If she had taken it in 4th grade, I doubt that she would have ever developed her own style. Instead, she would have developed a facile use of someone else's voice.

 

I have not used Writing With Ease, but have only seen it briefly at a convention. I remember thinking that if it had come out sooner, it would have been great for us. It seems like it's got enough detail in the instructions to be helpful but not overwhelming, and that the workbooks are good. I agree that diagramming helps with style down the road, although I think it's quite a while before students become proficient enough at it to have it converge with assistance in style or correction. But again, it's just too late for me to use it.

 

I love the SWB writing CD because it has enabled me to get my arms around an entire 1-12 progression that teaches to the point of enabling students to do good academic writing. That has been helpful to me all along, and I don't think I can hear it often enough. I've listened to it in the car over and over over the years, and heard SWB deliver the information in person twice. It has given me a specific vision of how to develop academic writing that has helped me every step of the way. (Kind of a whole to parts approach to instructing me as a writing teacher, so that I can do a good job of moving DD from parts to whole. Without a vision, the people perish. If I can't picture where we are headed, I probably wouldn't be able to get there.)

 

So with Bravewriter, one of the explicit goals of the program is enabling a writer to develop his or her own voice. It is focussed on composition and not much at all on structure, mechanics, spelling, or grammar. That is fine with me because I was teaching those separately anyway--my DD needed that separation. (Not all children do, and that's another story.)

 

The way that this is carried out is a little hard to describe unless you have seen the book or crawled around quite a bit on the website. One thing is the emphasis on discussion. You read books and talk about them. You see movies or plays and talk about them. You read poetry and talk about it--figure it out, think about how language is used precisely and beautifully. BTW, you read GOOD books. Ones that are well-written. So you are immersed in language, good language, and in discussion of it and attention to it.

 

Another is freewrites--each week at least once you sit down and write about something that you're interested in or studying that week. You write for a set period of time, whether you want to or not, without stopping. You don't judge this--it's more a chance to try to get something down on paper...it reminds me of the morning pages in The Artist's Way. You collect those and after a month or two you pick one and develop it. You try to use more descriptive words than in the original. You reorder the sentences. You might spend an entire session polishing one paragraph. So you are accustomed gradually to getting something down on paper, and then improving it.

 

Another is some specific exercises in detailed descriptive writing, that enable you to think about how to write illuminating prose for a blind audience. Others help you develop a good opening hook. Others encourage you to think about using precision in your choice of adjectives, adverbs, and phrases to make your points pop.

 

Off the top of my head, those are main things that encourage writing voice development.

 

With all this writing, in parallel you are doing copywork and dictation. You're learning in the same ways that SWB talks about from those exercises. They help with composing and writing together, and with spelling and grammar and punctuation. Great stuff!

 

Most of this writing is non-fiction, but the choice of topics tends to be interest-led. True academic writing doesn't really start until 8th or 9th grade. But by then you are an engaging writer with lots of practice and proficiency in writing short and long pieces and making them 'sound good' and structuring them well.

 

There is more to it, but those are the highlights.

 

I hope this makes sense. It's a big topic and doesn't lend itself to easy summarization.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Carol in Cal.

[TracyR]

I don't know. Strange enough I've found Writing A-Z to be really good. They have a 7 day free trial online. Everything you need is there and it teaches multiple levels at one time.

It was nice to teach three children the same concept but at different levels . Plus its only $29.95 for a full year access.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Just thought I'd share.....

 

My kids used IEW Themed Writing Early Am. History this past year. It was our first exposure to IEW. I can say we learned a LOT but at a fast and furious pace.

 

This year I hope to refine writing skills we learned last year.... not necessarily following IEW. I mainly want to practice writing a good topic sentence, supporting details and concluding sentence. I also want to practice different kinds of writing: descriptive, expository, persuasive, etc... We'll use history and science topics and also I'll have my kids write about anything of interest. Hopefully, that will make it more interesting than assignments from a curriculum.

 

I found Comprehensive Compsition by Katherine Stout. I have not purchased it yet, but it looks like a writing guide.... not a curriculum. The best sample pages are on googlebooks. It will give us steps for writing, and it teaches K-12. I think it will help us. I also have the vol. 2 writing book by Create Press. It teaches how to write different kinds of paragraphs and essays by using outlines. The outlines prompt the student to write the topic sentence, supporting details and conclusion. They also help with transitioning words. It is a wonderful way to "see" how a paragraph should be constructed.

 

I also plan to listen to SWB's writing lectures. With CC, Create Press, and SWB's lectures, I hope to have writing covered for next year.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Sweet Home Alabama

[Colleen in NS]

I agree that diagramming helps with style down the road, although I think it's quite a while before students become proficient enough at it to have it converge with assistance in style or correction. But again, it's just too late for me to use it.

 

Oops, I guess I should have mentioned that the blurb about diagraming was actually in the essay in WWE about the overall grade 1-12 process. It was in the logic stage section of that essay, and the way I understood it was that it's to be used then, as a start to making your thoughts clearer, after you've had the plenty of practice in earlier grades, in narration. When I read it, and thought about it for awhile, I realized that it could be a very good tool (along with others) for developing your own voice/style (in later logic? throughout rhetoric stage?), without having to rely on an IEW-type program.

 

One thing is the emphasis on discussion.

 

Another is freewrites

 

Another is some specific exercises in detailed descriptive writing

 

With all this writing, in parallel you are doing copywork and dictation.

 

So it sounds like an WTM/SWB type of plan, with some creative exercises added in. And it seems like in both cases, the frequent discussion and reading of good books are the big things that allow kids to develop their thoughts, which turn into their writing voice/style, yes?

[bethben]

To get the free reminder lessons from bravewriter, do you need to have bought something from them? Anyone know where to sign up for those?

Beth

[Carol in Cal.]

 

So it sounds like an WTM/SWB type of plan, with some creative exercises added in. And it seems like in both cases, the frequent discussion and reading of good books are the big things that allow kids to develop their thoughts, which turn into their writing voice/style, yes?

 

I'm struggling to express this difference.

 

I think that it's mostly that WTM suggests a lot of specific, subject area writing in a kind of mechanical, dry way, from the earliest years. Summaries, outlines, rewrites from outline, moving to short essays...these are major writing areas during the grammar and logic stages. It leads up to doing true academic writing in the rhetoric level. In theory, these pieces are all proofread and perfected; there is a major emphasis in completely correcting a high volume of written work. They are scaffolding that leads up to thesis generation and academic papers.

 

WJ suggests a lot of interest-led subject area writing, with a great deal of emphasis on good, thorough descriptoin, engaging writing, opening hooks, conclusions with punch, etc. There are relatively few papers that are edited thoroughly, but the ones that are are first wordsmithed significantly. Specific instructions in how to focus on one aspect or even paragraph of a paper and then improve it are a major area of work. Good writing, rather than correct writing, is the focus of most work through middle school. There is a great deal of specific coaching by the parent of the child in coming up with writing that is enjoyable to read, as well as correct and thorough. Then in high school specific essay forms are taught and mastered.

 

Common elements of both include the focus on copywork, dictation, and narration, and also the literature reading and discussion.

 

Now, SWB is a tremendously engaging writer. And Julie Bogart is a tremendously technically capable writer. They are both well-organized and effective in their communication. WJ fleshes out the creative, stylish, engaging side of good writing very well, while WTM fleshes out the mechanical development of good academic writing very well.

 

For me, the combination of having SWB's writing plan in my head using many of her types of assignments, and using many of WJ's methods has been an outstanding combination of the best strengths of both of them, and has led to very well-rounded writing instruction. Having said that, again, the main writing program that I used more than any other was Writing Strands. But that is such a little portion of the writing that DD has done, and had so little to do with the vision and day to day goals that I had, that it's really quite misleading to say that that was our writing program.

 

HTH, Carol

Edited June 13, 2010 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

To get the free reminder lessons from bravewriter, do you need to have bought something from them? Anyone know where to sign up for those?

Beth

 

Go to bravewriter.com and look for the place to sign up. My recollection is that I was getting the emails for a while before I bought the program.

[Lovedtodeath]

Isn't your ds the perfect age for Writing Tales? I thought a lot of people loved that one!

Yeah, I am finding it funny that when she was searching for LA I told her to get either PR or WT. She got MCT which was supposed to be ALL In One and now she needs a writing course. I am losing respect for MCT.

 

Aubrey... many of the HOD moms are ditching the HOD main recommendation for Igniting your Writing. You can find it on Currclick. They really like it. I plan to look into it in the future. Ignore me if you already got one of the others (but do update us).

[Aubrey]

Yeah, I am finding it funny that when she was searching for LA I told her to get either PR or WT. She got MCT which was supposed to be ALL In One and now she needs a writing course. I am losing respect for MCT.

 

I've heard that MCT has writing at the next level, but I've also heard that it's advanced. In the Island level, it looks like it's more of a playing-with-grammar exercise, which, imo, is different from writing, even if it does require pen & paper.

 

MCT was the perfect thing for me, AIO or no. After reading more PR threads, I would have bombed out of that one so badly. Mainly? Because I can't operate the VCR fast enough & because moving from the school table to an electronic device derails the whole day. I don't know why; we're obviously a little electronically impaired, lol.

 

Aubrey... many of the HOD moms are ditching the HOD main recommendation for Igniting your Writing. You can find it on Currclick. They really like it. I plan to look into it in the future. Ignore me if you already got one of the others (but do update us).

 

I went w/ BW. It just came yesterday. Some of what she writes is *verbatim* what's in my writing program that I created last summer. Dh says that means I didn't need anything. I say that means she'c *completely* in line w/ my phil of writing, BUT her stuff is all fleshed out.

 

Well, ok, except for the paragraph on how using pop culture ref's in your writing is a *good* thing. :glare: But I can forgive a single element in a curric, as long as it's surrounded by really good stuff.

 

Oh, & the Really Nice Box? I've been trying to decide. It's the white reusable kind instead of a brown taped-up one. That is better, more resusable. But...maybe not quite worth the capitalization. :lol:

 

The Really Nice Binder is the flexy kind w/out pockets, & the dividers are 1 per ch, which is kinda strange w/ the 1-2p ch's. But, hey, I have a label-maker & three kinds of hole punches, so I'm all about uber-organization. I'm still hanging on to the idea that we might be soul sisters. :D

[Lovedtodeath]

You are not supposed to watch the PR DVDs with your kids or even every day... but I do understand that it isn't for everyone. I am glad that you don't regret using MCT.

 

I agree with you that it means BW lines up with your philosophy... not that you shouldn't have bought it. HOD is exactly how I would have done WTM in a box, only without the religion.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Aubrey]

You are not supposed to watch the PR DVDs with your kids or even every day... but I do understand that it isn't for everyone. I am glad that you don't regret using MCT.

 

I agree with you that it means BW lines up with your philosophy... not that you shouldn't have bought it. HOD is exactly how I would have done WTM in a box, only without the religion.

 

Oooh...now I have to go look at HOD!

[Carol in Cal.]

Oooh...now I have to go look at HOD!

 

Raise your hands from the keyboard...breathe deeply...close your eyes...now step away from the computer...one step...two...turn away...now open your eyes...deep cleansing breath...Repeat after me, "I have chosen. I am finished choosing. From now on, it's just the General Board for me."

[Lovedtodeath]

But she hasn't... she is looking for history. ;)

[Aubrey]

Raise your hands from the keyboard...breathe deeply...close your eyes...now step away from the computer...one step...two...turn away...now open your eyes...deep cleansing breath...Repeat after me, "I have chosen. I am finished choosing. From now on, it's just the General Board for me."

 

I get overwhelmed easily. So one glance at HOD, & I realized it was not straight-forward. I'd have to figure it out. It might incl science & other things I've already got. And the titles are *so* redundant, it makes me want to scream.

 

So, see. That's all it takes. I've looked at it. Now I come back to the boards to see what the hive is doing/thinking/buying. ;)

[Carol in Cal.]

But she hasn't... she is looking for history. ;)

 

Nope, this is too dangerous. She needs a brief time away. After a week or so, she will be completely hooked on BW and ready to tackle the Cur Board again, but if she does it right now, she will be sucked in by those intriguing language arts titles...resist! resist!

[Aubrey]

Nope, this is too dangerous. She needs a brief time away. After a week or so, she will be completely hooked on BW and ready to tackle the Cur Board again, but if she does it right now, she will be sucked in by those intriguing language arts titles...resist! resist!

 

Really, you guys are a lot safer for me than Amazon, which remembers for me what I've looked at & also suggests similar titles.

 

Of course, when y'all start linking to Amazon, I'm always in trouble. But anything that requires extensive reading to be alluring is pretty safe for me. :lol:

[Aubrey]

Nope, this is too dangerous. She needs a brief time away. After a week or so, she will be completely hooked on BW and ready to tackle the Cur Board again, but if she does it right now, she will be sucked in by those intriguing language arts titles...resist! resist!

 

Fwiw, I'm not looking for a history curric right now. I am taking a break from that, lol. But in the mean time, I've convinced dh to *try* to write a history curric w/ me. He's got a hist degree; I've got lit. In a single swoop we could make TWO liberal arts degrees actually be worth something. :lol:

 

But that does mean I'm spending too much time on the curric boards reading about individual books & on Amazon, buying them. :001_huh: And then, worst-case scenario, we've got a lot of good books, & I know a little more history than I did before.

[Lovedtodeath]

LOL! I HATE the titles! It took me a long time to get past that. They are so super religious, they tell you nothing about what you are studying that year, they are very corny and redundant. LOL

 

What I like is the lay out. Every subject is on each 2 page layout. There is a cycle of things to do with your history readings. One day is an art project, one day is vocabulary, one day is narrating, one day is timelining, one day is notebooking. And even if you only use the history portion, that is okay. I would be paying more just for a history guide from WP.

 

The part of the HOD website that is appealing is the book packages and the sample of the guide. The descriptions are less than stellar, IMO. I also love the way the book selections are in their store in several different formats (including genre) and include the reading level.

 

Now if I could only find or write a secular version.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Capt_Uhura]

I could no more have one writing program than I could have only one math program. :lol:

 

I think WWE and MCT are a good combo. My DS has also taken several Bravewriter classes and it really hooked him on writing. I also own Igniting Your Writing but I see that more as a "let's work on this skill" and pull out IgYW to do it - it's a supplement like SM CWP is a supplement for our math. The writing in MCT is advanced. I think meshing Bravewriter's editing style and love of language w/ MCTs is a good match.

 

I agree that Sentence Island is more about writing as a means to cement the grammar than a "writing" program.

 

Every program has it's strengths and each teacher has his/her own which is why I need several programs! :D

[Capt_Uhura]

I'm struggling to express this difference.

 

I think that it's mostly that WTM suggests a lot of specific, subject area writing in a kind of mechanical, dry way, from the earliest years. Summaries, outlines, rewrites from outline, moving to short essays...these are major writing areas during the grammar and logic stages. It leads up to doing true academic writing in the rhetoric level. In theory, these pieces are all proofread and perfected; there is a major emphasis in completely correcting a high volume of written work. They are scaffolding that leads up to thesis generation and academic papers.

 

WJ suggests a lot of interest-led subject area writing, with a great deal of emphasis on good, thorough descriptoin, engaging writing, opening hooks, conclusions with punch, etc. There are relatively few papers that are edited thoroughly, but the ones that are are first wordsmithed significantly. Specific instructions in how to focus on one aspect or even paragraph of a paper and then improve it are a major area of work. Good writing, rather than correct writing, is the focus of most work through middle school. There is a great deal of specific coaching by the parent of the child in coming up with writing that is enjoyable to read, as well as correct and thorough. Then in high school specific essay forms are taught and mastered.

 

Common elements of both include the focus on copywork, dictation, and narration, and also the literature reading and discussion.

 

Now, SWB is a tremendously engaging writer. And Julie Bogart is a tremendously technically capable writer. They are both well-organized and effective in their communication. WJ fleshes out the creative, stylish, engaging side of good writing very well, while WTM fleshes out the mechanical development of good academic writing very well.

 

For me, the combination of having SWB's writing plan in my head using many of her types of assignments, and using many of WJ's methods has been an outstanding combination of the best strengths of both of them, and has led to very well-rounded writing instruction. Having said that, again, the main writing program that I used more than any other was Writing Strands. But that is such a little portion of the writing that DD has done, and had so little to do with the vision and day to day goals that I had, that it's really quite misleading to say that that was our writing program.

 

HTH, Carol

 

Thank you so much Carol for your write up! I think you summed it up well. I'm going to copy it over to my HS notes to read periodically.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I could no more have one writing program than I could have only one math program. :lol:

 

I think WWE and MCT are a good combo. My DS has also taken several Bravewriter classes and it really hooked him on writing. I also own Igniting Your Writing but I see that more as a "let's work on this skill" and pull out IgYW to do it - it's a supplement like SM CWP is a supplement for our math. The writing in MCT is advanced. I think meshing Bravewriter's editing style and love of language w/ MCTs is a good match.

 

I agree that Sentence Island is more about writing as a means to cement the grammar than a "writing" program.

 

Every program has it's strengths and each teacher has his/her own which is why I need several programs! :D

 

Did your son take Kidswrite Basics? Should I consider this and Writer's Jungle text? Is it easy to use Bravewriter? I am looking for something that is open and go and which also does not require a lot of teacher prep:)

 

I appreciate any info:)

Edited June 22, 2010 by priscilla

[Capt_Uhura]

I don't know if I'd call WJ open and go. It's more a philosophy of writing. THere is specific instruction in WJ, but it's not On Monday do this, On Tuesday do that. You can buy a subscription or individual titles to ..darn, I forget the name....you do a book each month, and in it you get dictation passage, what grammar element to pull out of it, discussion about some writing element in the story (great hook, great description, great character development, etc)...I was never sure those were worth the money but it would help you to get the job done. You can download a freebie of each level to see if it's something you'd be interested in.

 

Yes, my son took Kids Write Basic. He also took Handholders, Just So Stories, and a non-fiction writing class. Yep that was a lot of money for writing lol but he loved it. If I had to do it over, I would have skipped KWB and just did Handholders. We had already done the pre-writing exercises from the WJ and that was the first 2 weeks of KWB. The last 4 weeks was basically Handholders and Handholders is cheaper.

 

Bravewriter reminds me of Dr. Nebel's Building Foundations for Scientific Understanding.....it's a lifestyle. I think you could easily write a schedule for Bravewriter if you're the kind of person to write schedules and then follow them.

 

I hope Carol pipes in as I'm new to Bravewriter honestly.

[Carol in Cal.]

I could no more have one writing program than I could have only one math program. :lol:

 

 

Word.

 

The main thing is to be a good teacher.

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't know if I'd call WJ open and go. It's more a philosophy of writing. THere is specific instruction in WJ, but it's not On Monday do this, On Tuesday do that.

 

I agree that it's more of a lifestyle.

 

My suggestion is to spend some time on the Bravewriter website and see if you like the suggestions and the spirit of the place. They are very representative of the type of instruction in WJ. WJ is definitely the core of the curriculum, and I would recommend buying it if you like the website at all. Like WTM, it is a resource that you return to again and again over the years, sometimes for specific suggestions, sometime for refreshment, sometimes for philosophy.

 

Once you have digested WJ, and it does take a while, KidsWriteBasic is a good class if you want to have your hand held as a writing instructor. I did that one and found it tremendously valuable, even though most of the material was in WJ. For our family, having that experience at that point of answering to another adult and getting feedback that way was very helpful. For my DD, who resisted rewriting violently, it got her past that issue and to the point of considering revision to be just a part of good writing. We had been struggling with that forever, and it just popped us right through that barrier.

 

My recollection is that when I decided to focus somewhat on giving DD room to be creative and to write well in whatever writing she did, in addition to the history summaries and such that she was doing with WTM, I purchased WJ and meditated on it for a long time, and used Writing Strands during that period to actually teach writing. WJ and WTM were the combo that informed my philosophy and a lot of specifics of teaching writing, and WS as well as other resources were the mechanical assignments that moved us along to really think about various specific aspects of writing without forcing DD into the kind of mold that early exposure to IEW can produce.

[Capt_Uhura]

I agree that it's more of a lifestyle.

 

 

Once you have digested WJ, and it does take a while, KidsWriteBasic is a good class if you want to have your hand held as a writing instructor. I did that one and found it tremendously valuable, even though most of the material was in WJ. For our family, having that experience at that point of answering to another adult and getting feedback that way was very helpful. For my DD, who resisted rewriting violently, it got her past that issue and to the point of considering revision to be just a part of good writing. We had been struggling with that forever, and it just popped us right through that barrier.

 

 

:iagree: totally about the classes! We needed that accountability. I learned so much more than from just reading the WJ. WE LOVED LOVED LOVED Just So Stories. Even though I can teach it myself now, I will sign up my next son just so has the experience.

 

Capt_Uhura