saxon math conspiracy?

[Guest rubilynne4]

ok, so i've been researching math curriculums, and have come across some pretty strange articles, blogs, commentaries in the process. what it amounts to is this: after harcourt bought saxon, they somehow watered it down and added "new math", and changed it. there is also some talk about how they dumbed down the hs version. i do know that you can't buy the hardback public school version without a purchase order (why? some suggest some agreement w/ps systems preventing hsers from purchasing these). does anyone have any info about this, or is it just some weird over reaction by some ppl out there? what prompted all this initially is that my hubby, who tutors many hs students in upper math (alg, geo, trig, cal) was tutoring a private school (don't know if it's the hs version or not) kid using saxon, and he thought it was a very strange way to teach math. i personally like saxon (used 1, 3, 5/4 so far), but i'm not a mathy person at all. just don't want to steer my dds in the wrong direction where math is concerned. don't want them to have to relearn, or worse unlearn bad teaching. my hubby only does the upper math, so maybe it's something in the higher levels. any insight would be helpful. :confused:

Edited June 11, 2010 by rubilynne4

[Guest rubilynne4]

just thought i'd add in that my hubby is very traditional when it comes to math. very brainy/logical too. he likes to work math problems for fun, loves to build computers from scratch, does tons of IT stuff for businesses, etc. he is def not in the new math camp. that's what made me start reconsidering my math curriculum choice. so far though i haven't found any real grounds for changing as just as many ppl (mathy types too) seem to like it as those who hate it. my hubby says maybe it's just his style versus mine.

[Delighted3]

If you like saxon, but are worried about the newer versions, the older versions are pretty easy to find used.

Just a thought.

Joy

[Guest rubilynne4]

where? i've been looking, but have a hard time finding the teacher editions (remember, i'm not the mathy type, and dh only does upper level math). thanks for info.

[Guest rubilynne4]

okay hope you ppl don't think i'm totally crazy. am i the only one who's seen this stuff? what do you all make of it? i will probably continue to use saxon, but it would be cool if i could get my hands on the older books.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

okay hope you ppl don't think i'm totally crazy. am i the only one who's seen this stuff? what do you all make of it? i will probably continue to use saxon, but it would be cool if i could get my hands on the older books.

 

Are there particular lessons that you or your dh are finding remind you of new math? Or is it the spiral method rather than working through one topic at a time?

 

Have you tried looking for older editions at Abebooks.com Just glancing at Saxon 7/6, it looks like there are 2nd edition copies available. I've certainly seen older edition Saxon books at used homeschool curriculum sales.

[cocoabean]

I don't have any answers for you on the conspiracy theory. But I do have a suggestion about the teacher's editions. I have seen maybe a couple or three teacher's editions floating around through the years I've been perusing used home school books. So I don't think they are plentiful, but they do exist. My own method for finding a used book is doing searches online for them.

 

Here are a few web-sites to look for the teacher's books:

google search, "saxon teacher's edition"

ebay

half.com

abebooks.com

alibris.com

edexbooks.com

edaccents.com

and any of the "for sale" forums on the home school sites.

 

HTH!

[Dmmetler]

A lot of publishers who sell to the school market strongly restrict resale of teacher's editions and test materials or will not sell them privately because it was found that students were buying these books and using them to cheat. Since Saxon sells predominantly to schools, that would explain the difficulty at locating teacher's editions.

[Homeschooling6]

Have you read Art Reed's website. In his book he explains a lot about the curriculum. How to use it as well as what editions are good to use. I'd recommend his book to those who are thinking about or currently using Saxon.

 

The Homeschool and public school editions are exactly the same except for the cover.

 

The books have not been dumbed down.

 

If you have read any of Linda Taylor's articles she claims many things that aren't true about Saxon. In fact her first article was written the same year that Saxon Publishers sold the company. There would be no way she was able to look at the books. From what I gather she never compared the books. Her negativity is with the selling of the company and the new softcover books.

 

I purchased two hardback public school versions from Amazon. Since they are the same material the softcover homeschool version of the solutions manual and test & drills can be purchased in the homeschool editions.

 

Again, Art Reeds book is worth the $20.00. He ships fast. Purchase it today, you'll have it a few days later ;)

Edited June 11, 2010 by Homeschooling6
corrected a word

[angela in ohio]

If you have read any of Linda Taylor's articles she claims many things that aren't true about Saxon. In fact her first article was written the same year that Saxon Publishers sold the company. There would be know way she was able to look at the books.

 

I agree. Her article was pretty thoroughly trashed when it came out, but it still lives on on the internet. There should be a disclaimer placed on it stating that it was proved false long ago. :glare:

[Blueridge]

I believe I am correct here...all Saxon books were once sturdy hardback, non-consumable books. Now most, not all, have been changed to soft cover consumable workbook style texts. The speculation at that time was to eliminate the homeschooler's ability to purchase hardback texts, use them, and then sell them again. The company (perhaps) felt they were loosing a lot of profit with the reselling of books, so they made them consumable. This is only what I heard some years ago, and I have no proof of it's accuracy. :tongue_smilie:

[Homeschooling6]

Saxon 5/4 and above are softcover student text that are non consumable. Although with my son this year we did use it like a workbook.

 

Hardback textbooks are more expensive thus the making the homeschool version softcover (according to the publishers).

[kidsnbooks8]

The older ones are harcover. We still have 5/4, 6/5 and 7/6 from my olders and they are harcover texts. We did have 8/7 in the newer softcover/homeschool edition and sold it. But we have friends whose son attends a Christian school that uses Saxon and they passed the harcover school edition(3rd edition) on to us and it matches up perfectly to the homeschool answer and solution guide.

[Sahamamama]

Have you read Art Reed's website. In his book he explains a lot about the curriculum. How to use it as well as what editions are good to use. I'd recommend his book to those who are thinking about or currently using Saxon.

 

The Homeschool and public school editions are exactly the same except for the cover.

 

The books have not been dumbed down.

 

If you have read any of Linda Taylor's articles she claims many things that aren't true about Saxon. In fact her first article was written the same year that Saxon Publishers sold the company. There would be no way she was able to look at the books. From what I gather she never compared the books. Her negativity is with the selling of the company and the new softcover books.

 

I purchased two hardback public school versions from Amazon. Since they are the same material the softcover homeschool version of the solutions manual and test & drills can be purchased in the homeschool editions.

 

Again, Art Reeds book is worth the $20.00. He ships fast. Purchase it today, you'll have it a few days later ;)

 

Thank you for this link! His articles are insightful and full of good advice. I'm buying the book! Thanks!

[Momling]

I wouldn't call it a 'conspiracy'. A publisher's goal is to sell books, so they make content decisions based on the desires of the market, not based on any one teaching philosophy. In the case of Saxon's books for public schools, I'm certain they were changed not to dumb down anyone, but to reflect the requirements of the education departments in the states who buy their books. Of course, as homeschoolers, we can focus not on what the state education department's latest philosophy is (and thus, what the publishers put out), but on what actually works for us and our individual children.

[yslek]

I agree. Her article was pretty thoroughly trashed when it came out, but it still lives on on the internet. There should be a disclaimer placed on it stating that it was proved false long ago. :glare:

 

Really? I read her article and was concerned enough to pass it on to some friends. If it was proved false, though, I feel really bad for buying into it & passing it on. :001_unsure: Could you share more info on this? Thanks so much! :)

[Robin in DFW]

I've viewed/used both.

 

I just got a 2nd ed. 8/7 and compared the TOCs (thanks CBD) and the first couple of lessons. They are the same. The only difference is variables are introduced in Lesson 1 in the 3rd ed and they are done later in their own lesson in the 2nd ed. There are some lesson titles that have the wording ever so slightly changed and the word "may" has been changed to "can" throughout the 3rd ed.

 

I also checked with Art Reed...he has gone over the different editions and he said my observations are correct.

 

Same content, problems, answers...just a few slight changes.

 

Oh...and the words "with Pre-Algebra" have been added to the title even though pre-algebra was in the 2nd ed all along!

 

You can use the 3rd ed answer key and solutions manual with the 2nd ed.

 

If there have been changes made to dumb down the books, I'm not seeing it. Now the 1st ed might be completely different. I've never used that one.

 

hth someone!

Edited June 11, 2010 by Robin in DFW
add info

[yslek]

I've viewed/used both.

 

I just got a 2nd ed. 8/7 and compared the TOCs (thanks CBD) and the first couple of lessons. They are the same. The only difference is variables are introduced in Lesson 1 in the 3rd ed and they are done later in their own lesson in the 2nd ed. There are some lesson titles that have the wording ever so slightly changed and the word "may" has been changed to "can" throughout the 3rd ed.

 

I also checked with Art Reed...he has gone over the different editions and he said my observations are correct.

 

Same content, problems, answers...just a few slight changes.

 

Oh...and the words "with Pre-Algebra" have been added to the title even though pre-algebra was in the 2nd ed all along!

 

You can use the 3rd ed answer key and solutions manual with the 2nd ed.

 

If there have been changes made to dumb down the books, I'm not seeing it. Now the 1st ed might be completely different. I've never used that one.

 

hth someone!

 

That does help. Thanks! I also just spent most of my morning reading the Art Reed site. :D

[Abbysfriend]

None of this surprises me...so much of the homeschool curricula is just repackaged public classroom materials. You really have to do your homework. I am not a fan of Saxon with its drill and kill approach, so its no matter to me, but for the people who love Saxon, this is a concern. The truth is, almost all of them push complex operations before they really need it or should even be doing it. Remember that a classical education is focused on mainly memory in the early years. This is why Ray's Arithmetic is back in favor again...just the basics. How much can you dumb down grammar school math? In the first few years all they really need is addition and subtractions facts, (basic number operations) then multiplication and division facts as they are ready. Pushing kids to develop complex math skills at too early an age can change the wiring of their brain and it can burn them out on math too. No worries!!

[TracyR]

None of this surprises me...so much of the homeschool curricula is just repackaged public classroom materials. You really have to do your homework. I am not a fan of Saxon with its drill and kill approach, so its no matter to me, but for the people who love Saxon, this is a concern. The truth is, almost all of them push complex operations before they really need it or should even be doing it. Remember that a classical education is focused on mainly memory in the early years. This is why Ray's Arithmetic is back in favor again...just the basics. How much can you dumb down grammar school math? In the first few years all they really need is addition and subtractions facts, (basic number operations) then multiplication and division facts as they are ready. Pushing kids to develop complex math skills at too early an age can change the wiring of their brain and it can burn them out on math too. No worries!!

 

That maybe true for some kids but surely not mine. My girls would get so bored just doing addition and subtraction for a year and then multiplication and division for a full year. They seem to like variety. Sometimes we move fast and sometimes we move slow. Just depends on them.

I think if a child is ready for it then can do it. If they are not then they should just focus on the basics until they are ready. I tried MUS where they focused on one thing at a time and my 2nd daughter was bored silly and wanted to do something different. And she by far is not mathematically minded.

[angela in ohio]

I've viewed/used both.

 

I just got a 2nd ed. 8/7 and compared the TOCs (thanks CBD) and the first couple of lessons. They are the same. The only difference is variables are introduced in Lesson 1 in the 3rd ed and they are done later in their own lesson in the 2nd ed. There are some lesson titles that have the wording ever so slightly changed and the word "may" has been changed to "can" throughout the 3rd ed.

 

I also checked with Art Reed...he has gone over the different editions and he said my observations are correct.

 

Same content, problems, answers...just a few slight changes.

 

Oh...and the words "with Pre-Algebra" have been added to the title even though pre-algebra was in the 2nd ed all along!

 

You can use the 3rd ed answer key and solutions manual with the 2nd ed.

 

If there have been changes made to dumb down the books, I'm not seeing it. Now the 1st ed might be completely different. I've never used that one.

 

hth someone!

 

Exactly. The books themselves are the proof.

[angela in ohio]

None of this surprises me...so much of the homeschool curricula is just repackaged public classroom materials. You really have to do your homework. I am not a fan of Saxon with its drill and kill approach, so its no matter to me, but for the people who love Saxon, this is a concern. The truth is, almost all of them push complex operations before they really need it or should even be doing it. Remember that a classical education is focused on mainly memory in the early years. This is why Ray's Arithmetic is back in favor again...just the basics. How much can you dumb down grammar school math? In the first few years all they really need is addition and subtractions facts, (basic number operations) then multiplication and division facts as they are ready. Pushing kids to develop complex math skills at too early an age can change the wiring of their brain and it can burn them out on math too. No worries!!

 

Saxon is not that different from Horizons. :confused: Actually, many accuse Horizons of pushing concepts too early and Saxon of being more relaxed.

[z2_mom]

Saxon is not that different from Horizons. Actually, many accuse Horizons of pushing concepts too early and Saxon of being more relaxed.

 

 

So is Horizons harder than Saxon? Or do they equal out in the end? These are the two programs that I am trying to decided between for my dd.

 

Lynda

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

So is Horizons harder than Saxon? Or do they equal out in the end? These are the two programs that I am trying to decided between for my dd.

 

Lynda

We used and hated both. They are very similar. I would say that it's pretty accurate to say that Horizons is a bit more advanced than Saxon. They are both very spiral, with Saxon seeming a bit more so than Horizons because of it also being incremental. I did find the Teacher's Manual of Saxon more helpful than Horizons. The Horizon's Teacher's Manuals (at least back then, they could have been revised) were pretty worthless. Horizons is colorful but Saxon is black and white in the level we used. That made no difference at all to my children but might to some. Saxon also had them copy out of the text where Horizons uses a consumable workbook. Horizons only goes to 6th grade while Saxon goes all the way through High School. There are more helps (like DIVE CD's) available for Saxon. Those are the main differences I can think of.

[JudoMom]

We used and hated both. They are very similar. I would say that it's pretty accurate to say that Horizons is a bit more advanced than Saxon. They are both very spiral, with Saxon seeming a bit more so than Horizons because of it also being incremental. I did find the Teacher's Manual of Saxon more helpful than Horizons. The Horizon's Teacher's Manuals (at least back then, they could have been revised) were pretty worthless. Horizons is colorful but Saxon is black and white in the level we used. That made no difference at all to my children but might to some. Saxon also had them copy out of the text where Horizons uses a consumable workbook. Horizons only goes to 6th grade while Saxon goes all the way through High School. There are more helps (like DIVE CD's) available for Saxon. Those are the main differences I can think of.

 

Saxon K has no writing, Saxon 1-3 are worksheets, and Saxon 5/4 & up are textbook format.

 

There are no TMs for Saxon 5/4 & up (everything you need to know is in the student text) and DIVE cds are available for 5/4 & up.

 

The TMs for Saxon K-3 are scripted, which is great if you're not confident teaching math. It's also easy to just look the lesson over and not follow the script if you don't like it.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Saxon K has no writing, Saxon 1-3 are worksheets, and Saxon 5/4 & up are textbook format.

 

There are no TMs for Saxon 5/4 & up (everything you need to know is in the student text) and DIVE cds are available for 5/4 & up.

 

The TMs for Saxon K-3 are scripted, which is great if you're not confident teaching math. It's also easy to just look the lesson over and not follow the script if you don't like it.

Thanks for correcting me. I thought I put that I used Saxon 6/5 in there but I think I put that in the other math thread.

[TracyR]

If you use the newer edition Saxon books I have heard of many using them as consumable workbooks. Though to me that would be a mighty expensive workbook. I have also seen (and I have done this myself) others use dry erase boards for children who were not ready to write outside of the book. It worked wonders for my oldest daughter who was ahead in math but was not ready to write outside of a textbook.

 

The three spiral/incremental math programs that I'm aware of at the moment are:

 

Saxon

Horizons

and Christian Light Math

 

Saxon works a little slower than Horizons and Christian Light ( CLE ) math. In the end it all evens out by high school math. So if you work at a little bit of a slower pace with Saxon it will all even out by the time you hit Algebra 1. And even if you have a child using CLE or Horizons math, and they are working on three digit addition by the end of 1st grade it still will all even out by Algebra 1.

[silliness7]

Have you read Art Reed's website. In his book he explains a lot about the curriculum. How to use it as well as what editions are good to use. I'd recommend his book to those who are thinking about or currently using Saxon.

 

 

 

Oh, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE his website. I haven't sprung for the book. Maybe I ought to. But I already feel like a much more confident Saxon user reading through his online articles. He does NOT recommend the very earliest editions on some texts. He says later editions have been beefed up. He also tells you how to record Saxon on the transcript particularly that pesky geometry credit (without using the Geometry text) among many, many, many other very useful things.

[8filltheheart]

So is Horizons harder than Saxon? Or do they equal out in the end? These are the two programs that I am trying to decided between for my dd.

 

Lynda

 

Saxon and Horizons are not comparable courses. Saxon is highly repetitive and incremental (teaches small parts of concepts vs entire concepts at once)

 

Horizons is spiral but moves quickly.

 

Significant differences exist between the K-2 programs. Saxon includes "meetings," etc. Horizons is basically workbooks.

[z2_mom]

Horizons is spiral but moves quickly.

 

Significant differences exist between the K-2 programs. Saxon includes "meetings," etc. Horizons is basically workbooks.

 

This is what I thought. I felt that there were huge differences between the 1 grade horizons and 1 grade Saxon...but thought maybe I was missing something since people here were saying that they were the same.

 

we are using both right now for my youngest dd and I am trying to narrow it down to one program. It is too much work to combine them both and still have time for the other kids. There are parts of both horizons and saxon that I like and dislike.:glare:

 

Lynda

[Guest rubilynne4]

Have you read Art Reed's website. In his book he explains a lot about the curriculum. How to use it as well as what editions are good to use. I'd recommend his book to those who are thinking about or currently using Saxon.

 

The Homeschool and public school editions are exactly the same except for the cover.

 

The books have not been dumbed down.

 

If you have read any of Linda Taylor's articles she claims many things that aren't true about Saxon. In fact her first article was written the same year that Saxon Publishers sold the company. There would be no way she was able to look at the books. From what I gather she never compared the books. Her negativity is with the selling of the company and the new softcover books.

 

I purchased two hardback public school versions from Amazon. Since they are the same material the softcover homeschool version of the solutions manual and test & drills can be purchased in the homeschool editions.

 

Again, Art Reeds book is worth the $20.00. He ships fast. Purchase it today, you'll have it a few days later ;)

 

ok, thanks so much. after spending way too much time reading over the last several days, i basically learned what you stated above. i am sticking with saxon (old or new, although the hardcovers appeal to me as they last through more kids). amazing how a few unfounded articles can wreak such havoc. also, as far as my hubby is concerned, i think he figured out that it was more the kid he tutored than the books. unfortunately the kid was not highly motivated, and very far behind. his parents just needed him to pass (he plays sports), sad really. i did find art reeds site. maybe i will buy his book as well, it looks good. let's see climbing parnassus, latin centered curriculum, how to read a book, the well educated mind, it's just one more book right! luv it! :lol:

[Guest rubilynne4]

thanks for all the info and ideas everyone. this place is really great. i am learning soooo much from you all.

[Homeschooling6]

ok, thanks so much. after spending way too much time reading over the last several days, i basically learned what you stated above. i am sticking with saxon (old or new, although the hardcovers appeal to me as they last through more kids). amazing how a few unfounded articles can wreak such havoc. also, as far as my hubby is concerned, i think he figured out that it was more the kid he tutored than the books. unfortunately the kid was not highly motivated, and very far behind. his parents just needed him to pass (he plays sports), sad really. i did find art reeds site. maybe i will buy his book as well, it looks good. let's see climbing parnassus, latin centered curriculum, how to read a book, the well educated mind, it's just one more book right! luv it! :lol:

 

The book also explains why not to skip lessons, problems or books (other then 8/7 and/or Algebra 1/2) It talks about grading and how important the test are. It's worth it IMHO ;)

[Guest rubilynne4]

The book also explains why not to skip lessons, problems or books (other then 8/7 and/or Algebra 1/2) It talks about grading and how important the test are. It's worth it IMHO ;)

 

i checked out your blog. nice! i started one earlier this year, but haven't been to faithful in keeping up. perhaps, after my volunteer time at my church this summer (ending june 21st), i'll get back to it.

as for the book, for this month i'll have to put it on hold as i've reached my hs budget limit. surely you must understand that one? :D