What are a breeder's responsibilities?

[amy g.]

Dd sold two show goats to a lady who had bought roosters from us in the past. She spent hours going over care and management before letting them leave the property, then took them back for a month to breed them to our buck at no additional cost.

 

Things started to go south when the first doe kidded. The new owner called Dd in the middle of the night to say that one kid was out, but couldn't walk, and she didn't want to touch it and interfere with the mother's bonding.

 

Dd said to dry it off, take it in the house, bottle feed colostrum then take it back to the mother. Well, she didn't want to do that.

 

45 minutes into the conversation the owner mentions that another baby has had it's bottom out this entire time. Dd said to pull it because IT CAN NOT BREATHE! No, she really doesn't like to interfere with nature.

 

Finally, she pulled that kid who was dead, and took care of the other kid who is now doing fine.

 

Dd stressed how important it was to be there in case something goes wrong with the other doe's birth. We got an email that they found two dead kids next to the second doe. They suffocated in the sacs because no one was there to assist.

 

Now she wants Dd to BUY back the 2 original does plus the doeling since her "situation has changed, and she can not take care of them."

 

Dd wants to be a good breeder and protect her reputation and herd name. I want to institute a rule that once an animal leaves the property it can not come back, mainly for herd health reasons.

 

Should we compromise and take them back for free and resale them? She does not have other goats, so I think they are safe in terms of disease.

 

We really need to set a better sales policy.

 

I have to run to piano lessons. I'll check this thread when I return. Then I will probably ask this thread to be deleted so the owner doesn't ever see it if she is ever researching homeschooling options.

 

Thanks. Any ideas will help.

[Carrie12345]

Ugh. I'm sorry for the crummy situation.

 

It sounds as though it would be best for the animals to come back to you and, hopefully, rehomed. Not the easiest, I'm sure, but most humane AND most beneficial in the long run (to protect your dd's name).

 

I've just always assumed that most animal breeding would be similar to dog breeding in that solid breeders always require (and want) their animals returned when an owner cannot keep them (for whatever reason).

 

ETA: Oops! I completely missed the *buying* aspect. Um, no! Talk about presumptuous!

Edited May 24, 2010 by Carrie1234

[MotherMayI]

I would say that taking them back is responsible but in no way should your dd need to buy them back. That is ridiculous.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't see how her change in situation should impact your dd's pocketbook. If the woman wants to get some money back from them then she should sell them herself.

[Country Mouse]

It is outrageous that this buyer expects your dd to buy back the animals! What nerve!

I think taking them back (for free!) would be the best resolution for the situation. It sounds like this buyer was inexperienced and unprepared for the responsibility (even after your dd tried to educate her). I don't know how a breeder gets around this, except maybe careful screening? I don't know.

Best of luck.

[Liz CA]

Your daughter has no obligation to buy the goats back. She can take them back and point out in so many words that she would like to "help the lady out since she obviously discovered she didn't have the stomach to deal with it all," - rephrase this last sentence a little :).

 

Seems like the potential for disease is minimal as you mentioned and it wouldn't hurt you daughter's herd to take them back. She can then hopefully find someone who is not too squeamish to get their hands dirty.

 

I am really happy to see young people get into something worthwhile as this and your daughter's knowledge and professionalism will provide her with an excellent reputation.

Congratulations on having raised such a mature young lady and best wishes for all future breeding & selling.

[Chrystal]

It is outrageous that this buyer expects your dd to buy back the animals! What nerve!

I think taking them back (for free!) would be the best resolution for the situation. It sounds like this buyer was inexperienced and unprepared for the responsibility (even after your dd tried to educate her). I don't know how a breeder gets around this, except maybe careful screening? I don't know.

Best of luck.

:iagree:

[hornblower]

In my books: you breed them, you're responsible for them for life.

 

Reputable breeders have it in their contracts that if the buyer cannot or will not take care of the animal, the animal MUST return to the breeder. Money is generally not refunded unless it's in the first few weeks.

 

Quarantine them the way you'd do if you acquired an animal to improve your own bloodlines or increase your herd.

 

I'm not familiar with quarantine procedures for goats but there must be protocols.

 

I am a quarantine foster home for a different type of animal - there is an entire protocol for it & it's designed to protect the rest of the animals. After they go through 3 week qt here, they can go to a home where there are others of its species.

 

Vet them & take them back.

 

The $ might be an issue which is why you should have a sales contract which outlines the obligations of the buyer & seller......

 

best wishes -

[galtgrl]

I would say (and would tell my dd, who also breeds/raises/sells goats) that you should feel NO obligation to do anything for this nut.

:iagree: with having a clear policy. It stinks that people don't put enough thought into getting animals and then try to make that YOUR problem.

 

It's not.

 

It sounds like your dd did everything she could to help this person out. Some people are just beyond help.

 

I suppose your dd could tell the woman she'll help spread the word that the animals are for sale...but again, it's really not her problem. If SHE WANTS to take them back (for free, no money back to the woman) I would make sure the woman signs over the reg. papers before she brings them back to your property.

 

I've just always assumed that most animal breeding would be similar to dog breeding in that solid breeders always require (and want) their animals returned when an owner cannot keep them (for whatever reason).

 

As far as the above goes, goats are alot harder to find homes for than dogs. There just aren't as many people who *want* a goat, or have the space to take care of it.

 

People need to take responsibility for their own actions!!!!! If she doesn't want the goats anymore, she should sell them herself.

 

Get that policy down on paper, and again, sorry she had to deal with all that. HTH. -J

[jazzyfizzle]

Your daughter has no obligation to buy the goats back. She can take them back and point out in so many words that she would like to "help the lady out since she obviously discovered she didn't have the stomach to deal with it all," - rephrase this last sentence a little :).

 

Seems like the potential for disease is minimal as you mentioned and it wouldn't hurt you daughter's herd to take them back. She can then hopefully find someone who is not too squeamish to get their hands dirty.

 

I am really happy to see young people get into something worthwhile as this and your daughter's knowledge and professionalism will provide her with an excellent reputation.

Congratulations on having raised such a mature young lady and best wishes for all future breeding & selling.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I agree that you are under no obligation to purchase them back, but the responsible breeder action would be to take them back and provide a safe home and care for them, segregated if necessary for awhile from your herd.

Unfortunately, even when choosing carefully-as it seems your daughter did- all wonderful looking buyers do not end up being the great homes we hope and think they will be.

[hornblower]

It stinks that people don't put enough thought into getting animals and then try to make that YOUR problem.

 

...

 

...

As far as the above goes, goats are alot harder to find homes for than dogs. There just aren't as many people who *want* a goat, or have the space to take care of it.

 

People need to take responsibility for their own actions!!!!!

 

I agree with all your quotes. BUT I think responsibility goes one step back to the person who BRED them; the breeder needs to take that responsibility too. Goats ARE hard to place. So if you're going to add to their population, you have to have plans for where they'll go & what will happen to them & back-up plans for when things go wrong.

 

I have thought about this some more since I posted & actually, I think if all else fails, your dd should take them back & refund the money. I doubt I'd ever breed an animal but if I did, I cannot imagine leaving them in a place where they're not being well taken care of. I'd get them back asap.

 

If you cannot keep them or re-sell them, then I guess your dd will have to take them to the auction for slaughter. If there's no market for pet or farm goats for wool or milk or whatever - then I guess they're being created for meat. I would sincerely hope that other options are available in your area but this is the sad reality of things, isn't it?

 

Btw, a quick petfinder.com search for my area shows 166 adoptable goats just within driving distance to me.

[celticmom]

One thought is for your daughter to offer to resume care of the goats and to sell them on behalf of the original buyer less a commission for selling them and any veterinary expenses. She would probably lose some money on the deal (food before they sell and space to contain them) but she would not have the money she spent to buy them back at risk. The first buyer would be able to have the goats gone(most likely her immediate goal right now) and the possibility of getting some of her money back. The goats would be getting well cared for and the first buyer would not be getting an immediate financial benefit for her lack of responsibility.

 

What breed goats are they?

[amy g.]

They are show quality Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats.

[G5052]

but by no means would I refund. That's what most of the people I know who raise animals do. You've already spent $ raising the goats and getting them sold, and is not your fault that she can't take care of them. Perhaps you could consign them, but I'd document everything spent on keeping and reselling them, and then subtract out a decent fee for reselling.

 

Next time I'd use a contract too.

Edited May 24, 2010 by GVA

[Laurie4b]

I think the breeder is responsible ethically to take them back, but not to buy them back.

[Murphy101]

I would say that taking them back is responsible but in no way should your dd need to buy them back. That is ridiculous.

 

100% agree with this.

 

And in the future I wouldn't be so helpful, esp for free.

Make them pay a stud fee and refer them to a vet for follow up care.

If they don't want to pay in funds or personal effort, that will deter a lot (sadly not all) of people who should get them anyways.

[Cindyg]

In my books: you breed them, you're responsible for them for life.

 

Reputable breeders...

 

I agree that this would be ideal, but I think it matters here that the seller is a minor, a child, not a reputable breeder or a professional. (Not to disparage OP's dd; just pointing out her youth.)

 

Amy, is this your 15YO daughter?

 

I think it's outrageous that a grown woman called a child in the middle of the night in a panic. That in itself is wacky.

 

But to ask the child to buy the animals back?

 

I believe I would offer to TAKE them back. I just don't think I'd offer the buyer any money.

 

I know the idea that the breeder is responsible for the animal for its lifetime is the mantra right now among animal rights activists; and I think it's a great goal. But there is no historical precedence for this, no moral imperative.

 

Frankly, the issue of finding appropriate homes for animals and dealing with buyers is enough to keep me out of the animal-breeding business.

[Murphy101]

I agree that this would be ideal, but I think it matters here that the seller is a minor, a child, not a reputable breeder or a professional. (Not to disparage OP's dd; just pointing out her youth.)

 

See now, there I don't agree. If she can't handle it is a professional manner, then her parents shouldn't let her do it. I'd chalk this up to lesson learned for my dc and move on.

 

Amy, is this your 15YO daughter?

 

I think it's outrageous that a grown woman called a child in the middle of the night in a panic. That in itself is wacky.

 

But to ask the child to buy the animals back?

 

I think the entire notion of the seller buying them back is nuts, regardless of age.

 

I also think this buyer is taking advantage of the girl.

 

I believe I would offer to TAKE them back. I just don't think I'd offer the buyer any money

 

I agree. In fact, I think that is what the dd should have done when she got the first call. "I explained how to care for the goats, but if you need medical help for them, then you need to call a vet. Here's the number of the one I use. If you just don't want to care for the animals anymore, then you can bring them back at your expense. No refunds."

 

Somewhere, this basic policy needs to be in writing in the future.

Maybe put together a packet of care info, vets to call, any other fees for future services (such as stud), and your policy on refunds/return of animals.

 

I know the idea that the breeder is responsible for the animal for its lifetime is the mantra right now among animal rights activists;

 

Yeah. I don't agree with it.

[amy g.]

I really appreciate everyone's point of view. It will be a simple matter for dd to say, "I'm so sorry, but my parents are not allowing me to buy any additional goats at this time." That is the truth.

 

We have also decided not to do any more outside breedings. I think we did too much for her, and set her up to believe she could request something so outlandish.

 

If she transfers ownership papers back to us, I will take them back and resell them. We do need a good WRITTEN sales agreement. I will include in it that once a goat leaves our property, it can not return. There really are health risks out there that could endanger our entire herd, and costs us tens of thousands of dollars.

 

I don't think that is a real risk in this case since she does not have other goats.

 

This has been a great learning experience for Dd. I'm so impressed with how tactful and compassionate she has been.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I just bought a dog from a breeder.

Here's what my contract said (I personally think it's a fair contract).

 

I had 10 days to return the animal with full refund in case of allergies. This is a clause I requested because we were not entirely sure we could keep the dog due to allergies.

 

In her standard contract, there's also a clause that, if something doesn't work out, I could return the dog within the first 3 months for a half refund. She wants the animal back so she can place it with another family.

 

After 3 months, she would take the animal with no refunds, or I could try and sell to someone else (but her 2 years warranty won't transfer). I am forbidden to sell to a pet shop, or another breeder, and I can't take the animal to the pound. It should go to her if I need to 'dump' the animal (God forbid!)

 

She will take the animal back at any time, even 4 or 5 years down the line. But no refund beyond the grace period.

Edited May 25, 2010 by CleoQc

[HappyCrazyMama]

If she transfers ownership papers back to us, I will take them back and resell them. We do need a good WRITTEN sales agreement. I will include in it that once a goat leaves our property, it can not return. There really are health risks out there that could endanger our entire herd, and costs us tens of thousands of dollars.

 

I don't think that is a real risk in this case since she does not have other goats.

 

I think a no return to the property policy is a pretty common rule among goat breeders, especially dairy goat breeders. As a fellow goat breeder (nubians) I understand that there are a number of goat diseases that would devastate your herd and contaminate your soil for 10 or more years. Yet dairy goats must be bred, so there is a bit of a pickle, not like you can just not bred them. :glare: Bio-security on a goat farm is vital! I actually prefer when my animals are sold to market because I feel that no matter my efforts people just don't care to understand proper care of goats. I used to manage a dairy goat herd for a dear friend of mine, her written policy stated that animals could only be returned for a refund if it was infertile and that had to be proven by a vet. The policy further stated that any animals returned would be euthanized.:ohmy: (although that was never actually done :001_huh: ) Anyhow I understand your delemia, I took a goat back once but like your situation there were no other goats to come in contact with and I did refund but it was within a short period of time, a couple weeks I think. I would be telling this lady that she needs to find herself a buyer for these does. What's the point of attending a kidding if you don't want to interfere with nature.:confused: