How was the Lost Finale? POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE

[Love2Smile]

I stayed up until 2:30 last night catching up on my missed episodes and finally watching the finale. I was ..... underwhelmed. I mean, it certainly tied up loose ends and left you with that WTH? feeling, as most episodes did, but the whole touchy-feely love fest was kinda cheesy. I know the whole show was about relationships, redemption, and all that, but it could have been a little less lame. Now, I still have one burning question that I fear will never get answered. Where does Richard get his endless supply of guyliner?

Richard does NOT wear eyeliner! this has been discussed on many boards and even the actor himself declared he does not. He has very long eyelashes! He is a very beautiful man!

[ereks mom]

Yep, exactly.

[KidsHappen]

and that just brings me back to my dissatisfaction with the whole bit....people not knowing they are dead...........and another reason why it doesn't make sense....desmond seeing the parallel reality when he was hit w/ the electormagnetic shock by widmore and then trying to 'wake' everyone up....why would he need to wake everyone up if it was just jack's post death amnesia bit

 

per richard's eye liner i thought in the recap before the finale the producers said something about his infamous eye liner and that he doesn't really wear any??? does anyone else remember that....

 

Both he and the producers has stated many times that he does not wear eyeliner. His eyes naturally look that way. The whole apparent connection with the Egyptian aspect was purely coicidential.

[elegantlion]

Copied from Imdb.com. Poor guy got teased for his dark eyes. :svengo:

 

"Carbonell revealed on the "Lost" (2004) fifth season DVD extras that not only does he not wear eyeliner, mascara, or makeup of any kind to make his lashes and eyeline appear as dark as they do, but the makeup artists for "Lost" actually use concealer on his lashes and under his eyes to try to tone down the natural darkness of his eyeline. He also said that the unusual appearance of his eyes caused him to get teased and bullied when he was a child.

 

 

Is of Cuban and Spanish descent."

[stripe]

Poor guy -- I just think of that cheesy accent he had in "Suddenly Susan" whenever I see him.

[Marsha]

crashed in the first episode...

How could they have left the island and returned home for 3 years?

[Charles Wallace]

I was thinking today about how much I like what they did with the sideways Mrs. Hawking story. We're expecting her whole "you can't do this" thing with Desmond to be more of the same old protect the space-time continuum at any cost Eloise--but then it turns out to be all because she doesn't want to lose Daniel again. So in her life she was this woman so devoted to the island and a particular view of truth that she was willing to sacrifice her son for it, and then in the afterlife she doesn't have any purpose other than being a good mother to Daniel and indulging his every piano playing whim.

 

Questions I want to hear Damon and Carlton talk about on the DVD:

 

1. Did the bomb really go off? Doc Jenson says no, which surprised me--it hadn't occurred to me that it didn't really go off. I initially thought the bomb created the sideways world, but then abandoned that when the lightbulb went off and I realized "it worked" was what Juliet said to Sawyer at the vending machine. But I still thought the bomb was "the incident" and necessary to keep Dharma from finding out to much about the island. Now I dunno.

 

2. Minor point, but I'm curious: did the characters live full sideways lives before finding each other, or did the sideways world start up when the plane passed over the island and they all have fake memories of sideways lives? I would guess the latter, my primary evidence being when Jack asks his sideways mom about his "appendix scar" and then seems very confused as to whether he remembers it happening or not.

 

I'm guessing the latter also.

[Charles Wallace]

and that just brings me back to my dissatisfaction with the whole bit....people not knowing they are dead.....

 

 

That's b/c they're not precisely dead. They're at another level of reality. As far as not knowing that, they question their reality again and again. Richard asks if it's Hell; Rose is willing to accept it as a place of magical healing; Locke thinks it's the place of his destiny; Sun theorizes that they're all dead. And so on.

 

......and another reason why it doesn't make sense....desmond seeing the parallel reality when he was hit w/ the electormagnetic shock by widmore and then trying to 'wake' everyone up....why would he need to wake everyone up if it was just jack's post death amnesia bit

 

 

Because it wasn't just Jack's post-death amnesia bit. Maybe that's why it doesn't make sense.

[Charles Wallace]

Richard does NOT wear eyeliner! this has been discussed on many boards and even the actor himself declared he does not. He has very long eyelashes! He is a very beautiful man!

 

He stole it from Isabella.:D

[Charles Wallace]

crashed in the first episode...

How could they have left the island and returned home for 3 years?

 

Because the island was another level of reality -- an afterlife, but not in the classic sense. It's more helpful if you think of it as levels of a game. The "real world" was one level - a lower level that they left, but to which they can return. The Sideways world was a higher level -- one they do not all achieve.

 

My theory on the folks who traveled off-island is that, just as someone who has gotten to (let's say) level 3 on a game can descend back down to level 2, so too can some island characters effectively "regress" -- some only for a short time and for a specific purpose (e.g., Richard going to the off-island world to recruit Locke and Juliet), and others because they are unable or unwilling to achieve their on-island dharma or tasks. (Michael comes to mind for this one).

Edited May 27, 2010 by Charles Wallace

[Michelle My Bell]

That's b/c they're not precisely dead. They're at another level of reality. As far as not knowing that, they question their reality again and again. Richard asks if it's Hell; Rose is willing to accept it as a place of magical healing; Locke thinks it's the place of his destiny; Sun theorizes that they're all dead. And so on.

Because it wasn't just Jack's post-death amnesia bit. Maybe that's why it doesn't make sense.

 

If they are dead on the island, then how do they get older? Ben ages from a child to an adult. In the final episode, Richard gets his first grey hair. I don't think they were dead on the island.

[MelanieM]

and that just brings me back to my dissatisfaction with the whole bit....people not knowing they are dead...........and another reason why it doesn't make sense....desmond seeing the parallel reality when he was hit w/ the electormagnetic shock by widmore and then trying to 'wake' everyone up....why would he need to wake everyone up if it was just jack's post death amnesia bit

 

It wasn't just about Jack. All of these people were living their lives as we saw it. Jack just happened to be the one they centered on for much of the end story.

 

per richard's eye liner i thought in the recap before the finale the producers said something about his infamous eye liner and that he doesn't really wear any??? does anyone else remember that....

 

I did notice in Richard's back story episode that his eyes were not as dark and it didn't look like there was any liner on them. I assume they must have used make-up to achieve that, and think it's pretty interesting that they would bother.

 

Sorry if this repeats some from a prior post - I think, given her comments to Desmond about his getting what he always wanted, she remembered her life and had "woken up". I think her lack of peace is due to her fear that Daniel will also "wake up" with the other Losties around, and will remember that she killed him (and also that she sent him back to the island, knowing full well that he would be killed by her).

 

This is a good theory. I've been thinking she was in that half woken up state so she knew some things, but not enough to find peace and let go. Think of Charlie, John, Jack... they all had glimpses of things for a while before truly remembering. And when they remembered, they all seemed to move from confused to very peaceful and joyous. So I would think that if Eloise had truly woken up, she'd understand that Daniel would be perfectly fine when he woke up as well, and that they'd be meeting each other (and everyone else) with love.

 

Because the island was another level of reality -- an afterlife, but not in the classic sense. It's more helpful if you think of it as levels of a game. The "real world" was one level - a lower level that they left, but to which they can return. The Sideways world was a higher level -- one they do not all achieve.

 

I find this to be an interesting theory, but I don't think anything from the story points to this. I definitely didn't get the impression that the Sideways world was a higher level some people couldn't achieve. In fact, I left with the impression that they were all living (in a bizarre world, yes, but living all the same) just as we are living, and that the Sideways world was simply the place everyone goes when they die, gathering with whomever else was a part of their soul group (i.e. the most important people from their physical existance).

 

If they are dead on the island, then how do they get older? Ben ages from a child to an adult. In the final episode, Richard gets his first grey hair. I don't think they were dead on the island.

 

Right. They're not dead on the island. The writer's have come out and said this... they didn't die when the plane crashed.

[SproutMamaK]

Plus, if they were any "level" of dead on the island, how could Aaron have been born, and Sun & Jin's baby conceived?

[Charles Wallace]

That's b/c they're not precisely dead. They're at another level of reality. As far as not knowing that, they question their reality again and again. Richard asks if it's Hell; Rose is willing to accept it as a place of magical healing; Locke thinks it's the place of his destiny; Sun theorizes that they're all dead. And so on.

Because it wasn't just Jack's post-death amnesia bit. Maybe that's why it doesn't make sense.

 

If they are dead on the island, then how do they get older? Ben ages from a child to an adult. In the final episode, Richard gets his first grey hair. I don't think they were dead on the island.

 

To help you out, I've bolded the line of my post you quoted previously. I hope this helps you.

[GWOB]

Richard does NOT wear eyeliner! this has been discussed on many boards and even the actor himself declared he does not. He has very long eyelashes! He is a very beautiful man!

 

Lol! This has been a source of contention in my house. Does he or doesn't he? How can one person have such perfect eyelashes? There was even a theory about guyliner/ashes to keep smoke monster away/ and other stuff. Hey, I at least tried to be intellectual in my superficiality.

 

And yes, he sure is a beautiful man!

[Charles Wallace]

I find this to be an interesting theory, but I don't think anything from the story points to this. I definitely didn't get the impression that the Sideways world was a higher level some people couldn't achieve. In fact, I left with the impression that they were all living (in a bizarre world, yes, but living all the same) just as we are living, and that the Sideways world was simply the place everyone goes when they die, gathering with whomever else was a part of their soul group (i.e. the most important people from their physical existance).

 

Here's why I think Sideways was a higher reality.

 

1. The castaways get their deepest desires -- or get a chance at them --but still have to work through those problems in their characters or souls which hold them back.

Example: Locke gets Helen, whom he loves, but has to come to terms withi his disability. Counseled by Rose and realizing Helen loves him, he abandons his truculent insistence of "Don't tell me what I can't do!" and accepts his limitations. Later, he accepts that his self-punishment for his father's semi-vegetative state will not cure his father, and he agrees to being cured by Jack. This is a massive step for Locke: he is willing to accept what he cannot change (sorry for the AA cliche) and let his guilt and anger go.

 

Example #2: Jack

Jack gets David, whom he loves. With David, Jack is able to come to terms with the poor father he himself has been -- and come to terms with the poor relationship he has had with his own father. He is able to say to David that David will never be a failure in his eyes (words he wanted to hear for himself) and at the end, he is able to love Christian and embrace him.

Some cannot succeed in the Sideways.

Example: Sayid. Though presented with the opportunity to reunite with Nadia, Sayid again becomes what he has been before: an assassin, a killer, despite Nadia's pleas otherwise.

 

Example: Ana-Lucia. Presented with the opportunity to remember Hurley and Desmond, she cannot -- and Desmond points out that "She's not ready yet."

 

Some cannot make it to the Sideways. Example: Frogurt.

 

Hope this helps.

[kokotg]

Some cannot make it to the Sideways. Example: Frogurt.

 

 

Frogurt's there! he's on the plane with them!

 

Michael, we're told pretty explicitly, doesn't get to go to the sideways world...along with all the other whisperers...at least not yet. Which seems sort of unfair, really. And fascinating. Why Michael? If you look at so many of the characters on the show who DO wind up in the sideways world, their sins have to do with being really terrible parents. Widmore, Mrs. Hawking, and Ben all essentially sacrifice a child to the island. Christian Shepard is a pretty classic bad father along with Ben's dad. Locke's Dad stole his kidney and threw him out of a building, not to mention ruining Sawyer's life, and HE still makes it to the Sideways world (although I'm not sure we can really say he's there....maybe he's worse than stuck on the island). Obviously, Michael did a couple of Very Bad Things when he killed Ana Lucia and Libby, but it's interesting to me that these particular murders can't be forgiven as easily as the collective mass murdering spree of Ben, Widmore, et. al., particularly since Michael's murders were committed in the name of being TOO devoted to his son.

Edited May 27, 2010 by kokotg

[MelanieM]

Here's why I think Sideways was a higher reality.

 

Ok, perhaps I was misunderstanding some of your post... I thought you were saying the island experience was a different reality (which I disagree with). I do believe that the Sideways world was a different reality -- an after-death reality in preparation for moving on to... <insert whatever you believe about the afterlife here>.

 

Some cannot succeed in the Sideways.

Example: Sayid. Though presented with the opportunity to reunite with Nadia, Sayid again becomes what he has been before: an assassin, a killer, despite Nadia's pleas otherwise.

 

And then he overcame his issues, saved Shannon, and moved on with her. Sayid 'woke up' with the others. It seemed that Shannon was his salvation, his growth, and not Nadia.

 

Also, Sayid as an assassin in Sideways world was about him wanting to help others, not about him being selfish and inflicting pain for hire. I think that was a huge part of his journey... recognizing his ability to sacrifice for others. (Also played out in the fact that Nadia was married to his brother; it was a personal sacrifice for Sayid to encourage that rather than have her as his own.)

 

Example: Ana-Lucia. Presented with the opportunity to remember Hurley and Desmond, she cannot -- and Desmond points out that "She's not ready yet."

 

 

Yes, there were many who were not ready to wake up and move on. Also, some were not meant to move on with the soul group that we were witnessing, and therefore they weren't a part of that story. Daniel, Eloise, Widmore, Ben, Jin and Sun's daughter... Not everyone moves together, but that doesn't mean not everyone moves on.

[angela in ohio]

To help you out, I've bolded the line of my post you quoted previously. I hope this helps you.

 

But you also said this, which is what I think might be confusing:

 

1. Why didn't they die from the bomb?

Because they were already dead.

 

Are you saying they are dead on the island and 'not precisely dead' in the sideways world? Or 'not precisely dead' in both instances?

[SproutMamaK]

I think they didn't die from the bomb because either

a- the bomb never went off, they just time jumped, or

b- the bomb went off, which instantly caused a time jump, and the electro magnetic time jump "waves" reached them before the bomb did.

[MelanieM]

I think they didn't die from the bomb because either

a- the bomb never went off, they just time jumped, or

b- the bomb went off, which instantly caused a time jump, and the electro magnetic time jump "waves" reached them before the bomb did.

 

This is what I believe happened. And I think the bomb reset something so that they were back in their original time... which is what Juliet meant when she said "it worked". So it *did* work, just not in the way they were hoping.

[Charles Wallace]

Frogurt's there! he's on the plane with them!

I stand corrected! However, I really hope he's not one of the six people you meet in Heaven, if you know what I mean.

 

Michael, we're told pretty explicitly, doesn't get to go to the sideways world...along with all the other whisperers...at least not yet. Which seems sort of unfair, really. And fascinating. Why Michael? If you look at so many of the characters on the show who DO wind up in the sideways world, their sins have to do with being really terrible parents.

There's quite the rotten parent collection, isn't there? Let me consider why Michael and not (for instance) Hawking or Widmore.

 

Okay, here's my thought.

 

Michael's focus wasn't even about being a good parent. Michael sacrifices his friends to his selfish desires, completely selling these people out to the Others and betraying their trust. In doing so, he misses the point of why he's there on the Island: to forge bonds with these other folks, not betray them. I can't even say he sacrifices for Walt, because he doesn't. He doesn't listen to Walt: it's all about I Have A Father's Right, which (of course) is cover for I Am A Crummy Absentee Dad. Small-minded and fragile-egoed, Michael is threatened by Locke, by Walt himself -- heck, he's threatened when the wind blows. At least Eloise basically sacrifices Daniel to the needs of the Island -- at least operating for someone's greater good, if certainly not Daniel's. I think Michael does many things "in the name of helping his son," but I think that's as far as it goes: in name only.

 

Anthony Cooper made it to the Sideways...as someone effectively brain-dead. Karma is a b***h. I think you're right on the money when you say it's worse for him than being stuck on the Island, and that makes me think that perhaps the Oceanic 6 world and the Sideways world are the same: the difference is that for the Oceanic 6, they effectively tried to "jump" a level before they were ready, and they got karmically b-slapped as a result. Anthony Cooper is in his own private hell. I don't think Sideworld is simply a better place, by any stretch.

 

As far as Ben, Ben sincerely and abjectly regrets what he did to Alex. He feels great personal grief and genuine repentance. Was there ever anything Ben did that he regretted more painfully? I think we have seen how important genuine repentance is on the Island -- contrast Ben with Mr. Eko's defiant lack of regret when facing Smokeyemi.

 

For Widmore, I have a feeling that his decisions to sacrifice for the Island played a part in his movement to the Sideways -- but he really was one cold jerk. I'll have to think about that more.

[Charles Wallace]

Ok, perhaps I was misunderstanding some of your post... I thought you were saying the island experience was a different reality (which I disagree with).

I think there are many reasons to believe the Island is not reality as we know it.

 

In no particular order...

* Smoke monsters

* People who live for two thousand years

* People who've been wearing guyliner since before Lincoln died

* A magic drainplug

* Dharma Ranch Dressing from heaven

* People who should have "died," but haven't (e.g., Charlie after being hung from a tree, Patchy after going through the sonic fence, and every single survivor of 815)

* Ghosts

* Whispers

* Time travel

* Disappearing islands

* Big hot pockets of electromagnetic energy

 

I don't know about you, but this doesn't seem like "reality" to me unless you live in a waaaay more interesting neighborhood than I do.

 

 

I do believe that the Sideways world was a different reality -- an after-death reality in preparation for moving on to... <insert whatever you believe about the afterlife here>.

I think both were -- just two levels of that different reality, like the different levels of a game.

[Charles Wallace]

But you also said this, which is what I think might be confusing:

 

1. Why didn't they die from the bomb?

Because they were already dead.

 

Are you saying they are dead on the island and 'not precisely dead' in the sideways world? Or 'not precisely dead' in both instances?

 

I think they've moved beyond the mundane world we already know, which is how I meant "dead," but obviously their souls/essences/conscious selves have not been extinguished in either world. I hope that helps!! I was trying to follow the KISS rule up there, and that inevitably results in oversimplification.

[MelanieM]

I think there are many reasons to believe the Island is not reality as we know it.

 

In no particular order...

* Smoke monsters

* People who live for two thousand years

* People who've been wearing guyliner since before Lincoln died

* A magic drainplug

* Dharma Ranch Dressing from heaven

* People who should have "died," but haven't (e.g., Charlie after being hung from a tree, Patchy after going through the sonic fence, and every single survivor of 815)

* Ghosts

* Whispers

* Time travel

* Disappearing islands

* Big hot pockets of electromagnetic energy

 

I don't know about you, but this doesn't seem like "reality" to me unless you live in a waaaay more interesting neighborhood than I do.

 

I think both were -- just two levels of that different reality, like the different levels of a game.

 

Hey, no one is saying that Lost reality is like our reality! :lol: But those things were happening in the 'normal' reality for the Lost folks. To illustrate: there were people on the island that navigated there by ship and air, not by plane crash. Jacob left the island to 'touch' the candidates. The Dharma people went freely to and from the island. The reality for all of these people did not appear to change state pre and post island.

 

Again, the writers said that the island world was not purgatory, and that the people on the plane did not die when they crashed on the island. Also, Christian *did* say that everyone in Sideways world was dead and that those gathered were ready to move on. So I still don't think there's anything from the show to suggest that the island wasn't a part of the same plane of existance as real life for the losties. It wasn't written as an alternate universe, waiting place for the dead, multi-dimensional dreamscape, etc., regardless of whether or not the theory is an interesting one. :)

Edited May 28, 2010 by MelanieM

[angela in ohio]

Hey, no one is saying that Lost reality is like our reality! :lol: But those things were happening in the 'normal' reality for the Lost folks. To illustrate: there were people on the island that navigated there by ship and air, not by plane crash. Jacob left the island to 'touch' the candidates. The Dharma people went freely to and from the island. The reality for all of these people did not appear to change state pre and post island.

 

Again, the writers said that the island world was not purgatory, and that the people on the plane did not die when they crashed on the island. Also, Christian *did* say that everyone in Sideways world was dead and that those gathered were ready to move on. So I still don't think there's anything from the show to suggest that the island wasn't a part of the same plane of existance as real life for the losties. It wasn't written as an alternate universe, waiting place for the dead, multi-dimensional dreamscape, etc., regardless of whether or not the theory is an interesting one. :)

 

I agree. It took me a while to get past thinking that the island couldn't be reality because of the things that happene there. But the island life is no less realistic than V (never watched it, but the commercials are on during LOST) or any number of other programs.

[Charles Wallace]

Hey, no one is saying that Lost reality is like our reality! :lol: But those things were happening in the 'normal' reality for the Lost folks. To illustrate: there were people on the island that navigated there by ship and air, not by plane crash. Jacob left the island to 'touch' the candidates. The Dharma people went freely to and from the island. The reality for all of these people did not appear to change state pre and post island.

 

 

 

Again, the writers said that the island world was not purgatory, and that the people on the plane did not die when they crashed on the island. Also, Christian *did* say that everyone in Sideways world was dead and that those gathered were ready to move on. So I still don't think there's anything from the show to suggest that the island wasn't a part of the same plane of existance as real life for the losties. It wasn't written as an alternate universe, waiting place for the dead, multi-dimensional dreamscape, etc., regardless of whether or not the theory is an interesting one. :)

 

I think they're being quite cagey with the meaning of "dead." Moreover, I think it's possible at least for some people to move *down* a level, just as when a person is playing a game with levels, it's possible for a person who's achieved (let's say) level 3 to move down to 2.

 

 

I think there's a great deal to suggest the island really is on the same plane of existence -- and I think that there are many ways we move to different planes of existence...planes being one way.

 

If you'll go back to what I said earlier, I am also not arguing it is Purgatory in any simplistic sense.

[MelanieM]

I think they're being quite cagey with the meaning of "dead." Moreover, I think it's possible at least for some people to move *down* a level, just as when a person is playing a game with levels, it's possible for a person who's achieved (let's say) level 3 to move down to 2.

 

 

I think there's a great deal to suggest the island really is on the same plane of existence -- and I think that there are many ways we move to different planes of existence...planes being one way.

 

If you'll go back to what I said earlier, I am also not arguing it is Purgatory in any simplistic sense.

 

I think everything you're suggesting is plausible, and *could* make sense in the context of Lost. However, I don't think it is something intended by the writers, or 'proven' by what we've seen. In other words, I don't think the idea that there are levels (other than living, dead, and waiting to move on after death) is a part of the Lost mythology as written (to date).

 

That said, I personally resonate with the idea of 'levels' of existence, and think that this is actually present in our world. Not levels in the sense of higher and lower, but rather in the sense of various stages of awareness. But perhaps that's a great conversation for another thread. :D