Alfie Kohn

[Moxie]

Anyone like/dislike Alfie Kohn? My sister went to one of his talks and really likes his ideas. I've not read too much (not enough hours in the day). Just curious.

[Caitilin]

I read one of his books and wasn't impressed. It seemed to me that his understanding of parent-child interaction wasn't very nuanced. However, I tend to find this in the case of nearly all parenting books. :D

[lollie010]

I read Unconditional Parenting. There were aspects of it that were helpful reminders, but I still have not discovered ways to implement many of the concepts. It actually left me feeling a little disconnected as a parent, even though I agree with much of what he wrote. Still tyring to figure it all out.

[Perry]

I like what Daniel Willingham has to say about Alfie Kohn.

 

Alfie Kohn Is Bad for You and Dangerous For Your Children

 

I much prefer the writings and ideology of ED Hirsch and Daniel Willingham.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Perry

[Guest]

Oops.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Guest

[Guest]

I think my post got lost -- sorry if this duplicates.

 

I like Alfie Kohn's education writings very much. I liked The Schools Our Children Deserve best; I also found a lot to think about in No Contest and Punished By Rewards. I don't swallow any of his ideas whole; but I think he has a lot of things to say that are worth listening to and thinking about.

 

His book on homework was fascinating because of his discussion of how sociologists skew their own results to confirm pre-existing ideas of what they will find. I have a sociologist friend who has told me that yes, this can be the case; people believe so strongly in a particular idea that they will find evidence for it even in the face of the contrary, in a study they designed.

 

The Daniel Willingham criticism that another poster provided a link for is fascinating in its own right. Willingham admits outright that he has read only three short articles out of all Kohn's body of work -- apparently none of the full-length books. It seems fairly obvious that in a short article an author is going to perforce simplify much more complex ideas that are more fully elaborated in a book-length work. It's a bit much to base his entire attack of Kohn on these three short pieces without going to the bother of reading the details and elaborations and subtleties in longer works.

 

In fact, I've read quite a lot of criticism of Kohn and it seems to come almost entirely from a certain spectrum of politics. Kohn gets labeled as a fuzzy-thinking radical who just likes to fly in the face of convention for kicks. His attackers are generally conservatives. This is what happens to so much discussion of serious educational issues in our country -- the true issues get highjacked, the debate gets politicized and polarized. Any middle ground, possibility for meeting of minds or compromises, any admission that the other side might possibly have some good points, is lost in the attack. And the kids in the schools are the ones who suffer the greatest loss because of this.

[Penelope]

 

His book on homework was fascinating because of his discussion of how sociologists skew their own results to confirm pre-existing ideas of what they will find. I have a sociologist friend who has told me that yes, this can be the case; people believe so strongly in a particular idea that they will find evidence for it even in the face of the contrary, in a study they designed.

 

I think this is a HUGE problem with any research in sociology, education, psychology. These things are not sciences and cannot be studied the same way as true sciences can. Too much subjectivity involved even in the most controlled of experiments.

 

Education research beginning in the last century is part and parcel of the whole dumbing down of the USA.

 

I think Alfie Kohn is a progressive who likes to be in the public eye and write things that are controversial. I like a lot of what he says. I agree with him some of the time. Unfortunately he has a lot of criticisms of what is wrong with education and parenting, but not a lot of insight into improving them.

[angela in ohio]

I think Alfie Kohn is a progressive who likes to be in the public eye and write things that are controversial.

 

That about sums it up for me.

[Denise in Florida]

:001_smile: I have recommended this book several times. I'm not sure if it was the actual ideas in the book or the way the book challenged some of my preconceived thoughts but it has stuck with me for almost 12 years now.

 

I only read it once, when my girls were little, but it made me think about internal vs. external motivations. It wasn't specifically what the book said so much as my reactions to the book. Since that time, I have applied this altered perception to education, child rearing and issues of faith.

 

I have not read anything else by this author, nor have I read that book again.

 

Of course, your mileage will vary, but he is worth taking a look at.

[Perry]

 

The Daniel Willingham criticism that another poster provided a link for is fascinating in its own right. Willingham admits outright that he has read only three short articles out of all Kohn's body of work -- apparently none of the full-length books.

 

I interpreted that very differently.

 

I have not read all of Kohn’s sizable body of writing, but I have read pieces on three of his major themes from the last decade:

 

• the role of homework in schooling,
  
• the role of praise and reward in motivation, and most recently,
  
• the role of self-discipline in academic achievement.
  

 

[melissel]

I read Unconditional Parenting. There were aspects of it that were helpful reminders, but I still have not discovered ways to implement many of the concepts. It actually left me feeling a little disconnected as a parent, even though I agree with much of what he wrote. Still tyring to figure it all out.

 

I agree with Laurel. I understood and agreed with parts of UP, but for the most part, it didn't strike any real chords with me, and when I tried to implement some of his ideas, I was left feeling trampled and disrespected and basically like I had no say in our lives. I was part of an online community that espoused many of Kohn's theories and methods along with hardcore consensual living, and it all left a very bad taste in my mouth. I haven't been able to bring myself to read anything else by him since then.

[nmoira]

I loathe Unconditional Parenting, not because I disagree with that style of parenting, but rather because in Alfie Kohn World, children are not resilient and the parent is forever skating right on the edge of messing up their kids for life... messing up their kids for life... and an even smaller font to complete the echo effect... :tongue_smilie: Nothing else works other than Alfie's Way . For many, it's positively anxiety inducing.

 

I very much prefer Hold on to Your Kids and Parent Effectiveness Training (P.E.T.). The authors of these books give you permission to be human, up front. It's not about conflict, but about responsibility and reconciliation. Parenting from a position of guilt is both ineffective and confusing for children.

Edited April 26, 2010 by nmoira
typos

[angela in ohio]

I interpreted that very differently.

 

So did I. He didn't say he read short articles. I assumed he meant three books.

[LibraryLover]

I've heard Kohn speak, and it was interesting. I enjoyed it, and I saw our family in UP. Many Radical Unschoolers look to him as a mighty spokesperson for unschooling, and he isn't an unschooler or even a hser. His kids go to school. I think a great private school in Cambridge (Shady Hill maybe? Not sure), but his kids must have to do some homework, and they have to get up, get dressed, go to school, and get stuff done.

 

I like some of his ideas, but I am not sure I think he is the Holy Grail...and some of my unschooling friends will pause about that. lol

Edited April 26, 2010 by LibraryLover

[QuirkyKapers]

I read Unconditional Parenting. There were aspects of it that were helpful reminders, but I still have not discovered ways to implement many of the concepts. It actually left me feeling a little disconnected as a parent, even though I agree with much of what he wrote. Still tyring to figure it all out.

 

I read Unconditional Parenting too. I agree with Laurel, there weren't very many concrete examples that helped me grasp more how to implement what he was saying. However, I felt there were some really good ideas that helped me think about parenting in a way I had never thought of before!

[calandalsmom]

So did I. He didn't say he read short articles. I assumed he meant three books.

 

I dont think its possible to assert he read 3 books. He said pieces on three themes. That's pretty clear in its avoidance of the word BOOK. And it means he didn't read a whole lot of anything.

[Perry]

I dont think its possible to assert he read 3 books. He said pieces on three themes. That's pretty clear in its avoidance of the word BOOK. And it means he didn't read a whole lot of anything.

Or it could mean he read many articles on those themes. From the rest of the article it seems to me he's pretty well informed on Kohn's writings.

[Guest btsma1127]

What did you all think of Kohn's response? It was the link at the bottom of the page.

[Allearia]

The Daniel Willingham criticism that another poster provided a link for is fascinating in its own right. Willingham admits outright that he has read only three short articles out of all Kohn's body of work -- apparently none of the full-length books. It seems fairly obvious that in a short article an author is going to perforce simplify much more complex ideas that are more fully elaborated in a book-length work. It's a bit much to base his entire attack of Kohn on these three short pieces without going to the bother of reading the details and elaborations and subtleties in longer works.

 

The article has quotes from one of his books so it is apparent that he read it. I took the article to say those were three topics that he had read Alfie Kohn's writings on, not just three articles.

[LibraryLover]

That was a great read, as was Kohn's response, and the following reader responses/discussion which included contributions from Kohn. Fun, lively stuff!

 

 

 

 

 

I like what Daniel Willingham has to say about Alfie Kohn.

 

Alfie Kohn Is Bad for You and Dangerous For Your Children

 

I much prefer the writings and ideology of ED Hirsch and Daniel Willingham.

Edited April 26, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Joanne]

Not a fan.

 

While we have some similar views of the use of punishment and rewards, I find his writing hostile to spirituality, lacking practictal application, arrogant.

 

His work has largely been co-opted by a fringe parenting group (non coercive parenting) and many who embrace his ideas are non punitive but permissive/non *parenting*.

 

I believe the parent to be, by design, the authority in the home.

 

He had an interaction with an author friend of mine (whom I'd consider a professional peer of his) that confirmed my opinion.

[Haiku]

I hated Unconditional Parenting and thought it was the most impractical, unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky thing I have ever read. I was very glad he wasn't my dad. I am in complete opposition to those who would say that the parent is not the final authority in a child's life.

 

I have always called the book Unrealistic Parenting.

 

Tara

[nmoira]

I hated Unconditional Parenting and thought it was the most impractical, unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky thing I have ever read. I was very glad he wasn't my dad. I am in complete opposition to those who would say that the parent is not the final authority in a child's life.

 

I have always called the book Unrealistic Parenting.

It can work, with parents (and to a lesser degree, children) of the right temperament and personality, traits mostly inherited and certainly not learned from a book. That said, we're not a NCP or TCS family, and I have no desire for us to be. However, when it comes to parenting, Kohn is essentially preaching to the converted, and the rest of us will have to be content with psychologically scarring our children irreparably with our misguided parenting techniques. ;)

 

Just as an aside, I wouldn't want to be a TCS family for the same reason that in spite of being an ardent feminist I loath meeting with groups of ardent feminists. Too much talking. Everyone has to be heard out fully, no matter how asinine their proposal. Every time. I'm the kind of parent who feels the need to expedite matters occasionally for the sake of actually having the time to do something. :D I also find TCSers (but not necessarily NCP or NVC families) to be infuriatingly self-centered, as all to frequently they don't take into account the thoughts, needs, and feelings of others outside their group.

[cathmom]

I have read most, if not all of his books. Unconditional Parenting is the worst, and I did not agree with a lot of his conclusions. The others are definitely worth a read. I agree with his stance about homework, and the negative effect of praise/rewards has been explored in other works, like Mindset and NurtureShock. I think his educational works are very thought-provoking.

 

So, read his stuff, but skip UP!

[Haiku]

It can work, with parents (and to a lesser degree, children) of the right temperament and personality, traits mostly inherited and certainly not learned from a book.

 

Possibly so. But he certainly makes no allowance for the idea that there are different strokes for different folks. I dislike him for the same reason I dislike Dr. Sears. They both seem to believe that all children respond in the same way if you utilize their set of (superior) ideas to raise said kids, and they liberally pile on the guilt.

 

Tara

[nmoira]

 

and the negative effect of praise/rewards has been explored in other works, like Mindset and NurtureShock. I think his educational works are very thought-provoking.

Mindset is one book I took to heart, and the many little changes I've made in how I talk about work and effort made a tremendous difference with my perfectionist eldest. But Dweck doesn't caution against praise per se, but rather praise of end results rather than of effort.

[Greta]

I guess I'm one of the few here who actually liked UP. The criticism that it's lacking in practical advice is completely accurate. But the underlying philosophy of it made me take a good look at my parenting, and realize that my daughter was not getting enough messages of unconditional love and acceptance. It made me a gentler, more patient parent, and for that I will always appreciate it.

 

My relationship with my daughter has improved since I read that book. It made me stop and think about what consequences my punishments for her (which were always mild but all too frequent) were having on our relationship and her sense of security. I do not eschew punishments entirely, and I do believe in parental authority, but I came to see that by using punishment much more sparingly, it actually became a more effective teaching tool, and my daughter's confidence grew, and our relationship strengthened.

 

One thing he emphasizes that I think is really valuable, is that we can easily become too focused on our child's behavior, and unintentionally respond in ways that carry a cost. What I mean is, sometimes we are so intent on changing a behavior that we don't like, that we fail to address the emotions that are underlying that behavior. So the benefit of changing the behavior comes at an emotional cost to the child and/or the relationship. It's something that's worth being aware of, so even though I don't agree with his philosophy 100%, I still think the book is a good read.

 

ETA: I haven't read any of Kohn's other books, but I don't believe I would agree with his educational philosophy at all, from what I've heard about it. I'm actually in the process of reading Willingham's book "Why Don't Students Like School?" right now and really enjoying it.

Edited May 5, 2010 by GretaLynne

[nmoira]

Possibly so. But he certainly makes no allowance for the idea that there are different strokes for different folks. I dislike him for the same reason I dislike Dr. Sears. They both seem to believe that all children respond in the same way if you utilize their set of (superior) ideas to raise said kids, and they liberally pile on the guilt.

I agree. About them both. Dr. Sears enraged me, though to a lesser degree than Kohn. Guilt has no place in parenting.

 

It's not exactly a parenting book, but Liberated Parents, Liberated Children (the only Faber/Mazlish book I found compelling) has a fascinating discussion about guilt and parenting, both from a child's point of view and the parent's. The idea, IIRC, is that guilt is one thing you should absolutely fight indulging in it and try your level best not to show it to your children because it is overwhelming for them (and you). Guilt is toxic: In retrospect, my adult friends who have the worst relationships with their (non-abusive parents) are those who were guilt tripped or whose parents played the martyr, even if mildly and unconsciously.

 

Edited to add: I missed typing the connecting thought there. "Guilt is toxic."

Edited May 5, 2010 by nmoira

[Guest]

I dont think its possible to assert he read 3 books. He said pieces on three themes. That's pretty clear in its avoidance of the word BOOK. And it means he didn't read a whole lot of anything.

 

Yes, thank you!

[stripe]

I don't think he has the answer to everything, but neither do I think everything he says is rubbish.

 

I found Punished by Rewards to be a much more interesting book than Unconditional Parenting. I agree with him that there's an excess of rewards for every single thing and I cannot stand to be near parents who are constantly exclaiming things like "Good sliding!" and "Good walking!" and "What a good job eating your cookie!" and the like.

 

When we were discussing him, my husband asked me if he had any kids; he thought his ideas sounded like the talk of someone who has none. However, I think it may be a legitimate point that his kids are pretty young. The thing I found the most worthy of contemplation that he brought up was the rewards issue.

[Dandelion]

I agree with him that there's an excess of rewards for every single thing and I cannot stand to be near parents who are constantly exclaiming things like "Good sliding!" and "Good walking!" and "What a good job eating your cookie!" and the like.

 

This made me laugh... SO TRUE!! :laugh:

[emubird]

I've read Punished by Rewards and The Case Against Standardized Testing. The first was interesting. He reports on a lot of research, which is the best part of the book. It does tend to be a little "overwritten". You can read the first part of each chapter and get the gist.

 

The one about testing was also interesting, but I don't remember too much of it, having read it a long time ago.

 

He has interesting ideas. Just because you might not agree with them all is no reason to skip his books.

 

I did get the sense from Punished by Rewards that he probably isn't a stay at home parent, but I did find it helpful to read all his research into current work on Skinnerian psychology. I'd always felt like I was falling down on the parenting job by not providing a lot of rewards. In fact, if the more recent research is to be trusted, B. F. Skinner isn't to be trusted.

 

Reading this book brought back memories of reading Beyond Freedom and Dignity (or was it Walden 2 that I read -- can't remember now). It seemed at the time to me that the ideas Skinner was proposing kind of went against human nature, but he was the authoritative psychologist...