Do you think Pope Benedict will step down?

[Carol in Cal.]

Pedophilia is not a celibacy issue. There are plenty of decent celibate priests. There is also a percentage of the general population that is celibate. These people are not necessarily pedophiles.

 

I agree with you that pedophilia is not a celibacy issue on a primary cause level. I am sure that you are correct that there are a plenty of decent, celibate priests, and also that celibacy does not imply pedophilia or even inclination thereto.

 

If you look at the rest of my post, you will see that I was making a different point. It's that it's reasonable to ask whether the celibacy requirement leads to some who have deviant s*xual inclinations choosing the ministry as a safe haven job, and then later being tempted and falling into sin from there. One would hope that that would not be so, but I think that it is a very reasonable conjecture. Clearly it would effect only a portion of the population, and unfortunately those would give the whole population a bad name that is undeserved.

[Audrey]

Pedophilia is not a celibacy issue. There are plenty of decent celibate priests. There is also a percentage of the general population that is celibate. These people are not necessarily pedophiles.

 

:iagree: Pedophiles are in all walks of life. The predatory ones will find the avenues that allow them access to and authority over children so that they can have the opportunities to molest children.

 

The priesthood is not a correllary to pedophilia. Some pedophiles just happen to choose to be a priest, or a pastor, or a scout leader, in order to commit their crimes against children.

 

But back to the original question of should the Pope step down because of this issue. I think it's really a moot question. I do continue to hope, however, that one day there will be a Pope who will step UP to this issue and deal with pedophiles in the church to the fullest extent of the law, and even take that further step to excommunicate them publically. Until that happens, until a Pope says "NO MORE!" and backs it up with action, there will continue to be a large number of people who equate priests with pedophiles.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Audrey

[asta]

But back to the original question of should the Pope step down because of this issue. I think it's really a moot question. I do continue to hope, however, that one day there will be a Pope who will step UP to this issue and deal with pedophiles in the church to the fullest extent of the law, and even take that further step to excommunicate them publically. Until that happens, until a Pope says "NO MORE!" and backs it up with action, there will continue to be a large number of people who equate priests with pedophiles.

 

I believe Benedict has been doing this.

 

I simply don't believe he has been doing it "with trumpets blaring", as kid would say. He's more of a ninja pope.

 

 

a

[aggieamy]

I believe Benedict has been doing this.

 

I simply don't believe he has been doing it "with trumpets blaring", as kid would say. He's more of a ninja pope.

 

 

a

 

I wish you lived close to me because anyone that uses the phase 'Ninja Pope' is someone I'd like to have over for dinner. :001_smile:

[Audrey]

I believe Benedict has been doing this.

 

I simply don't believe he has been doing it "with trumpets blaring", as kid would say. He's more of a ninja pope.

 

 

a

 

 

That's good to know he's doing something, but I really think that too much damage has been done to the reputation of priests everywhere (and to the Church) to be going about it quietly anymore. I think it would behoove him to trumpet a bit -- maybe not a huge fanfare, but some more noticeable tootling would carry far.

[Slartibartfast]

I believe Benedict has been doing this.

 

I simply don't believe he has been doing it "with trumpets blaring", as kid would say. He's more of a ninja pope.

 

 

a

 

 

I am not touching this thread with a ten-foot-pole but I had to :lol:

[Murphy101]

I wish you lived close to me because anyone that uses the phase 'Ninja Pope' is someone I'd like to have over for dinner. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

[Ibbygirl]

I wish you lived close to me because anyone that uses the phase 'Ninja Pope' is someone I'd like to have over for dinner. :001_smile:

 

:lol::lol::lol: Will you be serving Chilean sea bass perchance? ;) hehe

[Crimson Wife]

It's that it's reasonable to ask whether the celibacy requirement leads to some who have deviant s*xual inclinations choosing the ministry as a safe haven job, and then later being tempted and falling into sin from there.

 

77% of those who molest children are married according to this source. So the celibacy requirement is a red herring.

[Carol in Cal.]

77% of those who molest children are married according to this source. So the celibacy requirement is a red herring.

 

 

Look, I don't want to beat this to death, but really, unless there are parallel stats about the proportion of married vs. unmarried molesters AND the proportion of priests vs. others in the overall population, you can't argue the point that I made one way or another.

 

The only thing that I have heard consistently about molestation is that it's usually an adult that is known to the family, often part of the extended family; not a stranger.

 

I'm speculating, not asserting, about the RESULTS of the celibacy requirement in terms of self-selection. I'm not AT ALL saying that the celibacy requirement causes molestation. What I'm saying is that it's reasonable to surmise and then test the theory that the celibacy requirement has the unintended result of increasing the propotion of people who have deviant inclinations who aspire to serving in that profession.

[LauraQ]

NO higher a rate of pedophilia than clergy of other Christian denominations and non-Christian faiths?

 

 

An excellent article from a secular source - Psychology Today - that we could all benefit from reading.

[LauraQ]

I'm speculating, not asserting, about the RESULTS of the celibacy requirement in terms of self-selection. I'm not AT ALL saying that the celibacy requirement causes molestation. What I'm saying is that it's reasonable to surmise and then test the theory that the celibacy requirement has the unintended result of increasing the propotion of people who have deviant inclinations who aspire to serving in that profession.

 

Agreed that we would need a study (one that would be very difficult to design well) to know for sure, but I honestly don't see that it follows logically that people with sexually deviant tendencies would gravitate more towards professions requiring celibacy. I could see a draw towards professions that put them in close contact with children (teaching?) or people's privates (medicine?) but not one that dictates celibacy or other deprivations (eg poverty) that actually tends to isolate them in a sense (separated by the collar) and does not put them in more contact with children than simply living in a neighborhood (as opposed to a rectory) would. It does help give them an aura of trustworthiness (or did at one time) but that seems like a lot of trouble for that one benefit for your average deviant, don't you think?

[Renee in NC]

I wish you lived close to me because anyone that uses the phase 'Ninja Pope' is someone I'd like to have over for dinner. :001_smile:

 

:lol: Me too! I just posted it as my quote of the day on facebook!:tongue_smilie:

[Carol in Cal.]

Agreed that we would need a study (one that would be very difficult to design well) to know for sure, but I honestly don't see that it follows logically that people with sexually deviant tendencies would gravitate more towards professions requiring celibacy. I could see a draw towards professions that put them in close contact with children (teaching?) or people's privates (medicine?) but not one that dictates celibacy or other deprivations (eg poverty) that actually tends to isolate them in a sense (separated by the collar) and does not put them in more contact with children than simply living in a neighborhood (as opposed to a rectory) would. It does help give them an aura of trustworthiness (or did at one time) but that seems like a lot of trouble for that one benefit for your average deviant, don't you think?

 

 

I picture this dynamic. Someone slowly comes to the realization while growing up that he doesn't feel the way other boys do. And then that the way he feels is completely unacceptable morally--so he feels pretty guilty and probably scared. If this is someone who grows up Catholic, he is also taught that priests are special and set apart. If he is at all inclined to be a priest, his proclivities would make it easier in some ways to go forward. ALL s*xual contact would be prohibited, but his own inclinations are such that any significant s*xual contact will either be unlikely or fraught with a tremendous amount of guilt. So he figures that being a priest will help him be good, and that he is not really giving up anything in the celibacy requirement because of his inclinations.

 

Simultaneously, another hetero guy growing up thinks about becoming a priest and decides not to despite wanting to, because celibacy seems like too much of a sacrifice in today's American culture.

 

Obviously neither scenerio is universal, but I would expect that the combo of the two results in a higher PROPORTION of men with poor inclinations in the priesthood than in the overall Catholic population. That's all I'm saying.

 

I do not believe for one minute that the priesthood in general is universally or even predominantly this way--just that there is likely a bigger proportion in the RC priesthood, as an unfortunate side effect of the celibacy requirement.

 

Please note that I have not questioned whether the celibacy requirement should exist, nor have I said that it CAUSES this issue--I don't believe it to be a direct cause on any level.

 

I am only explaining myself here, and I am not going to post about this any more in this thread, not from a lack of conviction, but rather because I have been as clear as I know how to be, and I don't want to hijack the thread to a greater extent.

[asta]

That's good to know he's doing something, but I really think that too much damage has been done to the reputation of priests everywhere (and to the Church) to be going about it quietly anymore. I think it would behoove him to trumpet a bit -- maybe not a huge fanfare, but some more noticeable tootling would carry far.

 

I think we'll be seeing more tooting in the coming year. I believe the Ireland report was just the beginning. Apostolic visitations (those are like unannounced "check ups" to see you're doing what you've been ordered to do) are akin to getting spanked repeatedly in public. And these visitations have been ordered as part of the punishment for Ireland's clergy.

 

I suspect America has a BIG one coming up.

 

 

a

 

p.s. If anyone is interested, the Papal letter to Ireland is available on the Vatican's website here. It is MUCH more involved than what was reported in the press.

Edited March 30, 2010 by asta
forgot link

[lionfamily1999]

And then there's that messy bit about how God left a church to Peter, where it remained for, oh... about 1500 years before some folk decided that that wasn't what he meant at all.

 

(and no, I'm not talking about Luther - he didn't think that - he was a Catholic priest, after all - his disagreement was not with the origins of the Church, but with its administration)

 

This is turning into a rather lively conversation!

 

 

asta

I do think, though, that Christ left the door open for others to lead as well. There was the man that was doing miracles in His name and the disciples wanted to stop him, because he wasn't with them (following Christ). Jesus said to leave the man alone, because he was working on their side (so-to-speak). It seems to me that that could indicate that Christ was okay with people walking the walk, without being in His church, iykwIm. The man was a follower of Christ, but doing it in a different way... Clear as mud?

[kpupg]

For those of you who get your news from the so-called mainstream media, you may want this information:

 

The Anchoress

 

You don't have to agree with the author's opinions, but the copious links provided here will give a fair-minded person pause. The so-called mainstream media does not give you the truth, much less the whole truth or nothing but the truth. And this is not unusual when the subject is the Church.

 

Be careful whom you hate based on reports in the so-called mainstream media. The Catholic-hatred on this board is stomach-turning today.

 

Karen

[HRAAB]

 

Be careful whom you hate based on reports in the so-called mainstream media. The Catholic-hatred on this board is stomach-turning today.

 

Karen

 

I've felt this discussion was pretty tame considering the extreme topic. I haven't felt or seen 'Catholic-hatred', a pretty strong word. Or maybe there is a thread I've missed.

 

As a life-long Catholic, I am beyond thoroughly disgusted at the way these numerous cases of sexual abuse have been handled - from the local bishop all the way to the Vatican. And as someone sitting in the pew every week, putting an envelope in the basket every week, I feel betrayed. Our own diocese hasn't escaped this. I want to say 'heads should be rolling'.

 

On a local level I would appreciate our pastor or bishop addressing this issue, frankly, honestly, explaining what is being done. This could be a letter from the bishop in the bulletin or a meeting for adults; I wouldn't expect it to be addressed during the homily at Mass with young children in attendance.

 

I do agree with Asta that Benedict seems to be doing more. I'm still shocked how long the who LC fiasco sat in a file. That whole mess is close to home for me.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 

Be careful whom you hate based on reports in the so-called mainstream media. The Catholic-hatred on this board is stomach-turning today.

 

Karen

 

 

You know, Karen, disagreement, thoughtfully and considerately expressed, with appropriate caveats inserted, is not hatred. It's just disagreement.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I've felt this discussion was pretty tame considering the extreme topic. I haven't felt or seen 'Catholic-hatred', a pretty strong word. Or maybe there is a thread I've missed.

:iagree:

 

As a life-long Catholic, I am beyond thoroughly disgusted at the way these numerous cases of sexual abuse have been handled - from the local bishop all the way to the Vatican. And as someone sitting in the pew every week, putting an envelope in the basket every week, I feel betrayed. Our own diocese hasn't escaped this. I want to say 'heads should be rolling'.

 

Same here. I was quite disgusted when our previous bishop claimed ignorance of these problems when I know for a fact he was complicit in the "abuse shuffle".

 

On a local level I would appreciate our pastor or bishop addressing this issue, frankly, honestly, explaining what is being done. This could be a letter from the bishop in the bulletin or a meeting for adults; I wouldn't expect it to be addressed during the homily at Mass with young children in attendance.

 

In our diocese, there has been quite a bit of communication about this. The bishops came out blaring what was being done, encouraging people who have been affected to come forward. Our pastor has talked about it several times, in letters in the bulletin, in mailings to parishioners homes and at the pulpit during mass. While he took some heat for talking about it during mass, he felt that any uncomfortable conversations that might come up with one's children were necessary to have. We have a "safe touch" program at church that has age appropriate information (different sessions for different ages.) If parents want their children to participate, they preview it themselves.

 

At our church, anyone who has any contact with children must go through the Protecting God's Children program, which includes a background check. This includes any parents volunteering at the school, anyone working in the religious education program, all parents who enroll their children in religious ed, scout leaders and any parents of scouts, you name it. If they will be in the building when children might be present, they have to go through it.

 

Whenever new allegations pop up, our pastor tearfully asks for prayers for everyone involved and begs anyone who has been affect (by the most recently exposed perpetrator or anyone else) to come forward. He is deeply saddened by the damage this has caused - the victims, the priesthood, and the church.

[Cranberry]

 

I'm speculating, not asserting, about the RESULTS of the celibacy requirement in terms of self-selection. I'm not AT ALL saying that the celibacy requirement causes molestation. What I'm saying is that it's reasonable to surmise and then test the theory that the celibacy requirement has the unintended result of increasing the propotion of people who have deviant inclinations who aspire to serving in that profession.

 

 

The thing is that men don't just wake up one day, enter the seminary and get ordained. It simply doesn't work that way.

 

Our close friend is in the seminary. The hoops he has had to jump through is incredible. Numerous psychological tests, many visits to psychologists to make sure he's fit for the job/life, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. These guys are poked, prodded, and every aspect of their life is picked over with a fine tooth comb...not just by the church, but by outside professionals. A pedophile would simply not stand up to the rigors of the application process now.

 

True, in the past when the single life was not given proper respect as a viable long term vocation, many men thought that priesthood was their only option instead of marriage, and we didn't have the psychological knowledge to find out properly if a man was suited to the vocation or not.

 

When we know better, we do better.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I haven't read the thread and won't have time to keep up w/ it, but I want to make sure that I include this link:

 

Catholic League For Religious and Civil Rights' Op Ed Ad in New York Times Regarding misinformation in the media March 30, 2010

 

other new releases from the Catholic League are here.

[elizabeth]

Just a note regarding the Catholic League for those who are not Catholic or simply unaware of Bill Donahue. Many Catholics, including this one ,find him to be bigoted, offensive and not at all a reflection of the church nor its members. I wish he would stop screaming all the time. Literally the man cannot simply speak. He has to bloviate. Very unbecoming.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Just a note regarding the Catholic League for those who are not Catholic or simply unaware of Bill Donahue. Many Catholics, including this one ,find him to be bigoted, offensive and not at all a reflection of the church nor its members. I wish he would stop screaming all the time. Literally the man cannot simply speak. He has to bloviate. Very unbecoming.

 

 

I am Catholic, and I don't always like how he presents himself. I do appreciate that he points out inaccuracies and bias in the media. For example a Rabbi in Brooklyn was found guilty on 8 counts of sex abuse with a male earlier this month and the New York Times did not report a single word on it. There are so many instances where stories are wrong or biased that even though I'm not fond of the man I am grateful for much of his work.

[love2read]

I am beyond thoroughly disgusted at the way these numerous cases of sexual abuse have been handled - from the local bishop all the way to the Vatican.

But no one should be surprised, there will always be Judas's and of course they would be within the church as the first Judas was. We knew this would happen because Christ told us it would be so.

[HRAAB]

But no one should be surprised, there will always be Judas's and of course they would be within the church as the first Judas was. We knew this would happen because Christ told us it would be so.

 

I'm surprised and disgusted with the way it's been handled. Not just once was it swept under the carpet, but repeatedly. Make a mistake, own up, and do it different. I expect sinners. I expect those in authority to deal with it, especially when we're talking about victimizing children.

[love2read]

I'm surprised and disgusted with the way it's been handled.

And do you feel that same way about the way that the Dalai Lama is dealing with the rampant sexual abuse cases involving Buddhist monks, some in temples that he has visited? My nephew was in the Peace Corp and told us about it years ago. I forgot about it until just now when I saw your quote. At the time he said some of the monks were as young as 6.

[HRAAB]

And do you feel that same way about the way that the Dalai Lama is dealing with the rampant sexual abuse cases involving Buddhist monks, some in temples that he has visited? My nephew was in the Peace Corp and told us about it years ago. I forgot about it until just now when I saw your quote. At the time he said some of the monks were as young as 6.

 

 

A few weeks ago my I had John Paul II quoted so maybe I tend to admire people who are simply human beings, with faults. I feel the same way irregardless of religion. I happen to attend the Catholic Church, have attended the Catholic Church for 49 years faithfully. I have invested a good part of my life into Catholicism. That is the reason why the scandals in the Catholic Church affect me more than scandals elsewhere. They touch me more deeply because of where my life has been spent. It's personal.

[love2read]

Janet, I haven't read through the entire thread so maybe these links have been posted before, but if not I think they indicate that the media is distorting the truth and that the Church is not sweeping everything under the carpet.

http://catholicanchor.org/wordpress/?p=601

http://ncronline.org/print/17602

http://ncronline.org/print/17602

In our city in the past year there has been a case of sexual abuse with a Protestant minister who was moved around by his dean and by a cub scout leader who had a record. The council heard rumors, but each thought someone else was investigating. Neither of these things got more than one short paragraph in the middle of the local section of the newspaper.

Edited March 31, 2010 by love2read

[Crimson Wife]

Interesting article from a secular source: "Pope John Paul II ignored Ratzinger's Pleas to Pursue Sex Abuse Cardinal". An excerpt:

 

"Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger tried to persuade Pope John Paul II to mount a full investigation into a cardinal who abused boys and young monks. But Ratzinger’s opponents in the Vatican managed to block the inquiry. As the future Benedict XVI put it: 'The other side won.'"

[elizabeth]

Interesting article from a secular source: "Pope John Paul II ignored Ratzinger's Pleas to Pursue Sex Abuse Cardinal". An excerpt:

 

Thank you this is very interesting indeed.

[Laurie4b]

Agreed that we would need a study (one that would be very difficult to design well) to know for sure, but I honestly don't see that it follows logically that people with sexually deviant tendencies would gravitate more towards professions requiring celibacy. I could see a draw towards professions that put them in close contact with children (teaching?) or people's privates (medicine?) but not one that dictates celibacy or other deprivations (eg poverty) that actually tends to isolate them in a sense (separated by the collar) and does not put them in more contact with children than simply living in a neighborhood (as opposed to a rectory) would. It does help give them an aura of trustworthiness (or did at one time) but that seems like a lot of trouble for that one benefit for your average deviant, don't you think?

 

I read her reasoning as saying that someone who knows they have the tendency, but who has a moral objection to that tendency, may choose a life that dictates celibacy as a way to control it; later, that person may sucuumb to temptation. I didn't read it as deviants choosing the priesthood as giving them greater access.

[asta]

Interesting article from a secular source: "Pope John Paul II ignored Ratzinger's Pleas to Pursue Sex Abuse Cardinal". An excerpt:

 

This is what I was purporting in my previous post:

 

Pope Benedict was never head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

 

Cardinal Ratzinger was.

 

I know it sounds snitty and like I'm splitting hairs, but in the Catholic hierarchy, it is a very important distinction.

 

Not a single one of us knows what Cardinal Ratzinger did or did not say to Pope JPII in regards to any of those cases; JP took his knowledge to his death. All we know is that, ultimately, it was JP's responsibility to defrock those priests, and that did not happen. For all any of us know, the DotF did recommend defrocking.

 

I have seen absolutely no evidence of kindness or tolerance towards pedophiles or insubordinates by Pope Benedict. I have a very hard time believing that the final judgement of any guilty parties stopped at his door.

 

He may be a holy man, and he may view a man's final judgement to be with God, but by all appearances and public actions, he does not tolerate poor or illegal behavior.

 

 

a

 

 

I didn't even know about that article when I wrote that post. Maybe I should apply to the Vatican's PR department or something.

 

 

a

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Here are some more links

 

Vatican Goes on The Offensive Against the NYTimes

Here is another press release and it clearly shows that the Bishop in Wisconsin is the one to blame here.

 

Post by Thomas Peters that shows some fairness in the media which Includes NBC apologizing!!!

 

Fr. Thomas Brundage (the canon lawyer that presided over the church trial sets the record straight

[Renee in NC]

I read her reasoning as saying that someone who knows they have the tendency, but who has a moral objection to that tendency, may choose a life that dictates celibacy as a way to control it; later, that person may sucuumb to temptation. I didn't read it as deviants choosing the priesthood as giving them greater access.

 

That's how I read it as well.