How important is learning definitions of digraph, diphthong, blend, schwa, etc etc?

[lotsofpumpkins]

My oldest is almost done with R&S 2nd grade phonics. She has learned quite a bit that I don't remember from when I was in school. As I consider switching to a different phonics program for my 3rd child (R&S is SO thorough, but it is extremely time-consuming), I am wondering just how important it is to know some of this stuff. And will they even remember it in a year or two? Of course, the ability to read will remain, but is it important to learn:

 

- the definition of digraph, diphthong, blend, etc (R&S 2nd grade phonics frequently reviews these)

- what a schwa is

- how to write out pronunciations of words

 

?

[2_girls_mommy]

Funny, I do remember learning all of those in school. I went to a school that did phonics. I also memorized lists of helping verbs (I can still sing them to the tune my teacher gave us!) and did tons of diagramming in later years. I guess that is why I like R&S. It reminds of what I did learn, and I want my kids to learn it too. I am no help:)

[EKS]

There is *no way* I'd spend the time to teach a 2nd grader those things.

[lotsofpumpkins]

We will be sticking with R&S for English (which starts in 2nd grade). I'm just wondering if I should switch to something else for phonics. But then I wonder if I'm doing my children a disservice by switching to a program that gets them reading but doesn't teach them as much as R&S.

[Laura Corin]

That's the kind of information that I drop into the conversation for general familiarity, but I would never stress it.

 

Laura

[Shelly in the Country]

I didn't know R&S went into that much detail. I did learn all of that in elementary school. I've gone over it a bit with my kids, but I haven't focused on it. I'll be interested to see what responses you get. :lurk5:

[FO4UR]

Those things did not become important to me until I began studying vocal diction.

 

Is it possible to skim over those things to get to the "meat" of the program for dc#3?

[JudoMom]

There is *no way* I'd spend the time to teach a 2nd grader those things.

 

:iagree:

[lotsofpumpkins]

There is *no way* I'd spend the time to teach a 2nd grader those things.

 

Is there a certain age when they *should* be learning this stuff? And if so, do English books re-visit these concepts in later grades? Since my children are still quite young, I'm not sure what is really important and when it should be learned. I do suspect that all this work dd has done in Phonics this year will probably be forgotten, other than her ability to read. But I'm pretty sure she can't tell me the definition of a diphthong, even though she's had to write it several times.

 

ETA: By the way, your comment has caused me to breathe a HUGE sigh of relief. Our school days are busy; we need to simplify and streamline!

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'd say you teach the skill and by the time they're in 4th or 5th grade, you tell them the formal name and they'll remember it the first time, so you never have to focus or force it...the name matters far less than the ability to recognize and use each of those things.

 

How often does one need such in real life. When was the last time you said dividend in real life?

[Orthodox6]

I skipped it with all four dc. They all became voracious, phonetics-savvy readers.

 

With our eldest, we used (for a while) the "Pathway Readers" (think that's the name) -- the Mennonite series. The workbooks were top-heavy with the dictionary symbols and "phonetic nomenclature" such as you list. I felt that it interfered with learning to read, which I thought a strange reaction, when the purpose of the "stuff" is to teach good reading ! I soon abandoned the effort.

 

Only once, as an adult, were these things useful -- during the very early stages of learning the Russian language. I can't recall any other instance. Please don't ask for details, though, for that was 23 years ago.

 

P.S. I forgot to include that, as one born in 1955, I was taught every speck of this approach to phonics in our ps classes.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Orthodox6

[lotsofpumpkins]

I'd say you teach the skill and by the time they're in 4th or 5th grade, you tell them the formal name and they'll remember it the first time, so you never have to focus or force it...the name matters far less than the ability to recognize and use each of those things.

 

How often does one need such in real life. When was the last time you said dividend in real life?

 

Well, dividend is math, right? I actually do use that word in real life. But when it comes to phonics, you teach the child to read. They don't walk around saying, "that's a diphthong, so it has two sounds in one syllable." They just know how to read it. Do they even need to learn those definitions even in the 4th or 5th grade? I'm a science/math person, so I doubt that I'll purposely re-visit thse concepts unless a curriculum says to. We use R&S for English; I don't know what they cover at that age. I guess spelling programs could review some phonics concepts, but if we use dictation for spelling, then we wouldn't get that.

[jlovebaker]

And I went to college and law school! Are we supposed to know those things? Am I missing out in life by not knowing what all those words mean? :tongue_smilie:

[lotsofpumpkins]

Those things did not become important to me until I began studying vocal diction.

 

Is it possible to skim over those things to get to the "meat" of the program for dc#3?

 

So, if it's important to their chosen field of study, then they can learn it later. That makes sense.

 

The 1st grade program doesn't really stress these things, it's the 2nd grade program. My problem with the 1st grade program is that it takes so much time each day since it was written for the classroom. I could skim over the 1st grade material and just do what's necessary, but after doing the program with 2 children, I'm ready for a change anyway. It makes more sense to me to pick something while my 3rd child is in Kindergarten and stick with it (rather than starting with ETC and then switching to R&S in 1st like we've been doing.)

[lotsofpumpkins]

And I went to college and law school! Are we supposed to know those things? Am I missing out in life by not knowing what all those words mean? :tongue_smilie:

 

I guess not, based on the responses I've been getting. YAY! :D

[Just Robyn]

Well, dividend is math, right? I actually do use that word in real life. But when it comes to phonics, you teach the child to read. They don't walk around saying, "that's a diphthong, so it has two sounds in one syllable." They just know how to read it. Do they even need to learn those definitions even in the 4th or 5th grade? I'm a science/math person, so I doubt that I'll purposely re-visit thse concepts unless a curriculum says to. We use R&S for English; I don't know what they cover at that age. I guess spelling programs could review some phonics concepts, but if we use dictation for spelling, then we wouldn't get that.

 

I didn't learn any of those things until junior/senior year or college and *only* because it was relevant to my major. I would only teach my children that stuff if they were truly interested for whatever reason.

 

ETA: However, I don't use R&S, so if there were some reason it were important for that particular curriculum, I wouldn't know.

[2_girls_mommy]

I guess spelling programs could review some phonics concepts, but if we use dictation for spelling, then we wouldn't get that.

 

I think that is why WTM suggests the year of phonics w/OPGTR then moving on to a phonetic spelling program where they will get some of that. Since we use R&S phonics I haven't looked at any of the spelling programs she suggests.

 

I think if I was in your shoes and looking to make a switch, starting from scratch (kindergarten,) I might look more closely at WTM's suggestions.

Edited March 25, 2010 by 2_girls_mommy
I actually reread my post and saw how badly I punctuate and spell :)

[KJsMom]

My dd and I struggled with that stuff until I realized that she is way beyond her grade level in reading and it was just driving us both crazy. We are doing Pathway reading which is super heavy on all of that so we just skip it. She loves the readers and I like that the workbooks really check her comprehension. We just leave out those exercises and now life is good!

[Scuff]

I love the phonics foundation R&S is giving my younger 2. (DS used something else) They're reading very well. That said, we do all the phonics pages, but I don't stress it. If they don't remember what a diphong is, we look it up (cause I don't remember either!) and do the lesson. (they really don't take that much time, even with 2 in seperate levels) I want them to be familiar with prounciation symbols so that they can figure out pronounciation from a dictionary when they're older. But having complete mastery over it all isn't that important.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Well, dividend is math, right? I actually do use that word in real life. But when it comes to phonics, you teach the child to read. They don't walk around saying, "that's a diphthong, so it has two sounds in one syllable." They just know how to read it. Do they even need to learn those definitions even in the 4th or 5th grade? I'm a science/math person, so I doubt that I'll purposely re-visit thse concepts unless a curriculum says to. We use R&S for English; I don't know what they cover at that age. I guess spelling programs could review some phonics concepts, but if we use dictation for spelling, then we wouldn't get that.

We use dividend b/c we're teachers...but outside of school? When was the last time we used dividend, dipthong, etc over dinner with friends (besides home schoolers). My point was, at an older age, a strange and unfamiliar word like dipthong will stick easier than it will for a 1st grader. You can teach the words for good measure, but honestly, in the younger years...who cares?

[lotsofpumpkins]

We use dividend b/c we're teachers...but outside of school? When was the last time we used dividend, dipthong, etc over dinner with friends (besides home schoolers). My point was, at an older age, a strange and unfamiliar word like dipthong will stick easier than it will for a 1st grader. You can teach the words for good measure, but honestly, in the younger years...who cares?

 

gotcha.

[lotsofpumpkins]

I think that is why WTM suggests the year of phonics w/OPGTR then moving on to a phonetic spelling program where they will get some of that. Since we use R&S phonics I haven't looked at any of the spelling programs she suggests.

 

I think if I was in your shoes and looking to make a switch, starting from scratch (kindergarten,) I might look more closely at WTM's suggestions.

 

I no longer have my copy of WTM. What spelling programs does she suggest?

[SilverMoon]

Does the second grader still need daily phonics instruction? If she is reading well I'd just drop it and mention the phonics rule when you catch her making a mistake in her reading. If the first grade book adequately prepares them for reading well I'd consider just dropping the second grade book for the next kid.

 

Mine have mostly used Phonics Pathways (unscripted). Once they were reading pretty well we switched the daily phonics instruction to a phonics based spelling course. They still read aloud to me often enough for me to catch common mistakes. Only one kept regular phonics instructions throughout second grade.

[usetoschool]

I think the terms are more applicable to spelling but I would teach them about the schwa because it is the most common sound in (American) english and where a lot of kids, I think, get messed up with vowel sounds. A schwa is the unaccented vowel that just kind of gets the sound sucked out of it - just kind of becomes an uuuuuuuuu sound. And this is also why some explanation of syllables might be helpful. I have some kids who had a hard time reading schwa words because they couldn't let go of the correct sound of the vowel and say it the way we normally speak. The words didn't sound the same and they just couldn't figure out what the real word was.

[angela in ohio]

It's very helpful here. We use those terms all the time when discussing words in spelling and vocabulary. It's handy to have dc know the terms. Oldest dd still has trouble identifying the vowel making the schwa sound in unfamiliar words of three or more syllables, so we talk about that one the most. In our family, we always say that we never regret learning anything, only what we didn't learn. :D If you just use them consistently, dc pick them up, just as they pick up words for everything else in life.

 

Some of those terms are also on standardized tests, if that is an issue in your state.

[lotsofpumpkins]

Does the second grader still need daily phonics instruction? If she is reading well I'd just drop it and mention the phonics rule when you catch her making a mistake in her reading. If the first grade book adequately prepares them for reading well I'd consider just dropping the second grade book for the next kid.

 

Mine have mostly used Phonics Pathways (unscripted). Once they were reading pretty well we switched the daily phonics instruction to a phonics based spelling course. They still read aloud to me often enough for me to catch common mistakes. Only one kept regular phonics instructions throughout second grade.

 

No, the 2nd grader does not need daily phonics instruction. She has learned new things in phonics this year, but it's been all the topics I've already mentioned. As for the actual phonics rules required to read, she knows those and is an excellent reader.

 

I am thinking I should get a phonics based spelling program for the oldest two for our next school year (starting in May). They will be in 3rd and 2nd grade. The upcoming 2nd grader has struggled more with learning to read, but I do listen to him read aloud daily so I can work with him that way. Between that and a spelling program, we should be fine, right? (Plus he'll start grammar). Then I figured I should go ahead and get OPGTR or Phonics Pathways or something like that for working with my 5 year old. (Should we keep doing ETC too, or is a written component completely unnecessary?)

[lotsofpumpkins]

It's very helpful here. We use those terms all the time when discussing words in spelling and vocabulary. It's handy to have dc know the terms. Oldest dd still has trouble identifying the vowel making the schwa sound in unfamiliar words of three or more syllables, so we talk about that one the most. In our family, we always say that we never regret learning anything, only what we didn't learn. :D If you just use them consistently, dc pick them up, just as they pick up words for everything else in life.

 

Some of those terms are also on standardized tests, if that is an issue in your state.

 

Ok, but are they covered in a good phonics-based spelling program? The more I think about R&S, it seems like they crammed too much into the 2nd grade phonics, and my dd won't remember it anyway, unless it gets reviewed.

[SilverMoon]

No, the 2nd grader does not need daily phonics instruction. She has learned new things in phonics this year, but it's been all the topics I've already mentioned. As for the actual phonics rules required to read, she knows those and is an excellent reader.

 

I am thinking I should get a phonics based spelling program for the oldest two for our next school year (starting in May). They will be in 3rd and 2nd grade. The upcoming 2nd grader has struggled more with learning to read, but I do listen to him read aloud daily so I can work with him that way. Between that and a spelling program, we should be fine, right? (Plus he'll start grammar). Then I figured I should go ahead and get OPGTR or Phonics Pathways or something like that for working with my 5 year old. (Should we keep doing ETC too, or is a written component completely unnecessary?)

 

That sounds good for the rising second grader, and is my plan for my own rising second grader. He'll still read aloud to me a few times a week, and have a quiet reading time in the afternoon. He'll also have spelling, grammar and copywork for his language arts.

 

The main difference between OPGTR and PP is scripting. PP isn't scripted at all, and OPGTR is. The ETC part is probably an individual decision. Three of my four readers would have balked at writing work on the side, but one needed it. The latter was a slower reader and just couldn't break into PP to start with. A good phonics workbook helped her crack the code and suddenly PP made sense to her.

 

R&S spelling teaches those things from your OP over the years and is an excellent phonics based spelling in my opinion. I wish we'd started with it earlier! When my little guy runs out of A Reason For sets left behind by his siblings he'll move to R&S.

[angela in ohio]

Ok, but are they covered in a good phonics-based spelling program? The more I think about R&S, it seems like they crammed too much into the 2nd grade phonics, and my dd won't remember it anyway, unless it gets reviewed.

 

We do phonics K-2 here, so that is when they learn them. With yougest ds, we used Horizons Phonics, which was the most complete program I have used, and they asked him to find blends, digraphs, etc. in the instructions, so he had to know what they meant. I would expect a phonics program to teach them, and I expect a phoics program to be complete by 2nd grade. The terms will then be reviewed in spelling and English/grammar after 2nd grade.

[BearWallowSchool]

I think if I was in your shoes and looking to make a switch, starting from scratch (kindergarten,) I might look more closely at WTM's suggestions.

 

 

:iagree: SWB suggests starting Spelling Workout A in 1st grade.

Edited March 25, 2010 by tiffkeeton

[charlotteb]

Both of my kids learned to read using Abeka. Abeka uses the term "special sounds" to describe all blends, dipthongs, etc. My children read very well and don't seem to have any lasting effects from not learning all the terms!

[lotsofpumpkins]

R&S spelling teaches those things from your OP over the years and is an excellent phonics based spelling in my opinion. I wish we'd started with it earlier! When my little guy runs out of A Reason For sets left behind by his siblings he'll move to R&S.

 

We've actually been using R&S spelling this year (for my 2nd grader). So, you think I should stick with it? It's so inexpensive; it'd be nice not to have to buy a more expensive program. I'm going to go look at samples from 3rd grade and up to see what they cover. I was going to give dictation a try instead of a spelling curriculum, but given the fact that a spelling program will reinforce the phonics rules in an organized fashion, maybe I should stick with R&S for spelling. Decisions, decisions...

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It's very helpful here. We use those terms all the time when discussing words in spelling and vocabulary. It's handy to have dc know the terms. Oldest dd still has trouble identifying the vowel making the schwa sound in unfamiliar words of three or more syllables, so we talk about that one the most. In our family, we always say that we never regret learning anything, only what we didn't learn. :D If you just use them consistently, dc pick them up, just as they pick up words for everything else in life.

 

Some of those terms are also on standardized tests, if that is an issue in your state.

 

:iagree: K12 curriculum has used these terms and I have not hesitated to instruct ds on them. Of course, I have spent much more time on the sounds, but over time, with short reviews that are incorporated in the lessons, he understands the terminology:).

[SilverMoon]

We've actually been using R&S spelling this year (for my 2nd grader). So, you think I should stick with it? It's so inexpensive; it'd be nice not to have to buy a more expensive program. I'm going to go look at samples from 3rd grade and up to see what they cover. I was going to give dictation a try instead of a spelling curriculum, but given the fact that a spelling program will reinforce the phonics rules in an organized fashion, maybe I should stick with R&S for spelling. Decisions, decisions...

 

R&S spelling would definitely serve your needs. :001_smile: After how efficiently I've seen it work with my oldest I plan to stick with it for the whole series. When my others finish what they're in (oldest's hand-me-downs) they'll be switching over.

[lotsofpumpkins]

R&S spelling would definitely serve your needs. :001_smile: After how efficiently I've seen it work with my oldest I plan to stick with it for the whole series. When my others finish what they're in (oldest's hand-me-downs) they'll be switching over.

 

Thanks. I think this is the direction we'll go in. I needed to place an order with R&S soon anyway (I forgot to buy the English tests last time I placed an order), so I'm going to go ahead and get the 3rd grade spelling set plus the 2nd grade workbook while they are 10% off. :)

[Annabel Lee]

Both of my kids learned to read using Abeka. Abeka uses the term "special sounds" to describe all blends, dipthongs, etc. My children read very well and don't seem to have any lasting effects from not learning all the terms!

 

:iagree:Abeka does it in a way that only goes as far as the student needs to thoroughly understand how to spell each sound or apply each rule. They use the breve and macron and cross out silent letters. They circle "special sounds" which are drilled daily on charts - if you teach it by the book. I still remember all of those "special sounds" and their associated words (st in stop, squ in squeak, etc.) from when I was little. There is no seemingly weird pronunciation key to learn with dots on top of letters. CLE LA does what you describe R&S doing with this.

[BearWallowSchool]

I think you should stick w/ Rod and Staff English and Spelling and ditch the reading. You seem to be satisfied w/ those subjects and only troubled by the reading. You could keep the readers and just let the children read them on their own or use as read alouds b/c of the good bible content. Pick something like OPGTR or another phonics primer that doesn't take up a lot of time w/ all the extras, but still gets the job done for the next child learning to read. This is what I've come up with after reading several of your recent posts. :D

[lotsofpumpkins]

I think you should stick w/ Rod and Staff English and Spelling and ditch the reading. You seem to be satisfied w/ those subjects and only troubled by the reading. You could keep the readers and just let the children read them on their own or use as read alouds b/c of the good bible content. Pick something like OPGTR or another phonics primer that doesn't take up a lot of time w/ all the extras, but still gets the job done for the next child learning to read. This is what I've come up with after reading several of your recent posts. :D

 

Yes, I think that's what I'm going to do! I'm thinking about getting Phonics Pathways for my 5 year old to use along with the ETC.

[Gratia271]

I'd say you teach the skill and by the time they're in 4th or 5th grade, you tell them the formal name and they'll remember it the first time, so you never have to focus or force it...the name matters far less than the ability to recognize and use each of those things.

 

How often does one need such in real life. When was the last time you said dividend in real life?

 

:iagree: