Mother not informed that her daughter left school for an abortion

[Mrs Mungo]

Wow, I wish excuses like that worked for everyone. I robbed the bank, because I thought there was a chance that someone using the bank was doing drugs and this way I could prevent them from over dosing! Really!

 

:confused:

[Jackie in AR]

Everybody stop and think, now. Don't just react with emotional reflexes.

 

Although the two posts, in tandem, do provide tinder for argument, which we have been reminded to avoid, fairness in this instance would have required your same remark to be posted in reply to the support expressed in favor of abortion. It is unjust to call one side of a divisive issue "wrong" for speaking her mind, yet allow the other side of a divisive issue to do the same thing and make no comment. I speak for nearly any topic, not just this one of abortion. If "A" may speak in favor of an issue, "B" possesses equal right to speak against. In the case of this thread, both parties expressed themselves with appropriate public manners. I have no problem with either person's style of post.

 

Just so we're clear... What you're saying is... everyone is entitled to their opinion? And, if someone's opinion differs then it doesn't necessarily mean they're picking a fight? And they even have the right to write said opinion?

 

Shocking.

 

Simply shocking.

 

Thank you, ladies.

 

I was in no way trying to be snarky or start anything on the board. I was simply expressing an opinion in direct contrast to one that had already been expressed. I'm glad you both recognized that.

 

I hope you both stick around on this board. There is a need for more logical thinkers in this world. :001_smile:

[Jackie in AR]

:iagree: That is always my first thought when I hear people talking about freedom of choice. I guess there are many instances of people's freedoms taking others' freedoms away (ie smoking bans), but this one involves life/death in a closer way, I think. At least, that is how I feel.

 

Yes, babysparkler!

 

Abortion is as much a human right issue as anything else.

[Mrs Mungo]

Abortion is as much a human right issue as anything else.

 

Nobody is ever, EVER going to change someone's mind in this format over that piece of the discussion. It *always* ends badly. Alllllwaaaaays.

 

I would really like to discuss the surrounding issues because I think they are important and I think there are valid points on both sides. However, if people can't divorce themselves emotionally from the underlying topic of abortion, then I'm not going to bother to try to discuss it.

 

Yes? No? Maybe? You hate me? All of the above?

[Jackie in AR]

Nobody is ever, EVER going to change someone's mind in this format over that piece of the discussion. It *always* ends badly. Alllllwaaaaays.

 

I would really like to discuss the surrounding issues because I think they are important and I think there are valid points on both sides. However, if people can't divorce themselves emotionally from the underlying topic of abortion, then I'm not going to bother to try to discuss it.

 

Yes? No? Maybe? You hate me? All of the above?

 

I'm not emotional. I'm stating my opinion.

[edithcrawley]

Nobody is ever, EVER going to change someone's mind in this format over that piece of the discussion. It *always* ends badly. Alllllwaaaaays.

 

I would really like to discuss the surrounding issues because I think they are important and I think there are valid points on both sides. However, if people can't divorce themselves emotionally from the underlying topic of abortion, then I'm not going to bother to try to discuss it.

 

I apologize for my post which caused a bit of a stir. I checked the rules before posting it and didn't see anything about it being not allowed.

 

 

I do find the issue quite fascinating and would love to discuss it.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm not emotional. I'm stating my opinion.

 

Please show me where I said anyone was emotional. That word has a different meaning than the one implied in divorcing oneself emotionally from an issue.

 

Can we divorce the two issues of:

 

1. legal abortion for adult women

 

and

 

2. abortion for teens (especially young teens) without parental consent?

 

Because if we can't, I'm not interested.

[Jackie in AR]

Nobody is ever, EVER going to change someone's mind in this format over that piece of the discussion. It *always* ends badly. Alllllwaaaaays.

 

I would really like to discuss the surrounding issues because I think they are important and I think there are valid points on both sides. However, if people can't divorce themselves emotionally from the underlying topic of abortion, then I'm not going to bother to try to discuss it.

 

Yes? No? Maybe? You hate me? All of the above?

 

Here is where you brought emotion into the discussion and referred to the underlying topic of abortion.

 

Please show me where I said anyone was emotional. That word has a different meaning than the one implied in divorcing oneself emotionally from an issue.

 

Can we divorce the two issues of:

 

1. legal abortion for adult women

 

and

 

2. abortion for teens (especially young teens) without parental consent?

 

Because if we can't, I'm not interested.

 

You're an adult. You have the right to choose what topics you discuss on this board and which ones you will pass on. I have the same right. I'm not interested in you setting my boundaries for me.

[edithcrawley]

 

 

2. abortion for teens (especially young teens) without parental consent?

 

 

 

 

I think this partly depends on the age of the teens in question, and how people define an "old teen" and a "young teen"

 

I'm sure we can all agree that 17 is definitely an "old teen" (I'm excluding 18 from this discussion because they are adults), and that 13 is a "young teen" but what about 14, 15, and 16 year old teens? Which category do they belong in?

 

Is there a definite line between old and young teen, or is this distinction, as many other things are, based on each teen individually? For the sake of the law, it would have to be an age cutoff without regard to an individual's characteristics/maturity levels.

[Crimson Wife]

I think this partly depends on the age of the teens in question, and how people define an "old teen" and a "young teen"

 

I'm sure we can all agree that 17 is definitely an "old teen" (I'm excluding 18 from this discussion because they are adults), and that 13 is a "young teen" but what about 14, 15, and 16 year old teens? Which category do they belong in?

 

Is there a definite line between old and young teen, or is this distinction, as many other things are, based on each teen individually? For the sake of the law, it would have to be an age cutoff without regard to an individual's characteristics/maturity levels.

 

See, this is where CA law makes no sense to me. On the one hand, it says that having s*x with a minor is a crime (felony or misdemeanor depending on the age of the partner). On the other hand, it says girls as young as 12 can get contraception or abortion. So it's illegal for them to have s*x but legal for them to get contraception or have an abortion? Shouldn't it be the same age for both? :confused:

[Mrs Mungo]

Here is where you brought emotion into the discussion and referred to the underlying topic of abortion.

 

Again, the two phrases have very different meanings. But, if you choose not to see that *shrug*.

 

You're an adult. You have the right to choose what topics you discuss on this board and which ones you will pass on. I have the same right. I'm not interested in you setting my boundaries for me.

 

I asked a question, I didn't issue a command. I have other ways of coping with this issue though.

 

To everyone else: Might I suggest people interested in the subject of the thread refrain from quoting people who choose to debate abortion, in general? Otherwise, the thread will deteriorate and be deleted like the vast majority of threads that in any way mention abortion. I think that would be unfortunate but certainly nobody is required to follow suit.

 

I think this partly depends on the age of the teens in question, and how people define an "old teen" and a "young teen"

 

I'm sure we can all agree that 17 is definitely an "old teen" (I'm excluding 18 from this discussion because they are adults), and that 13 is a "young teen" but what about 14, 15, and 16 year old teens? Which category do they belong in?

 

Is there a definite line between old and young teen, or is this distinction, as many other things are, based on each teen individually? For the sake of the law, it would have to be an age cutoff without regard to an individual's characteristics/maturity levels.

 

Like I said, it's certainly a difficult issue.

 

I wonder how much medical history is available? I think the potential for disaster is huge.

[Mrs Mungo]

See, this is where CA law makes no sense to me. On the one hand, it says that having s*x with a minor is a crime (felony or misdemeanor depending on the age of the partner). On the other hand, it says girls as young as 12 can get contraception or abortion. So it's illegal for them to have s*x but legal for them to get contraception or have an abortion? Shouldn't it be the same age for both? :confused:

 

And aren't medical professionals mandatory reporters? I agree that it makes no sense. The laws conflict with one another.

[Crimson Wife]

And aren't medical professionals mandatory reporters?

 

In theory, yes. But there have been numerous exposes of Planned Parenthood employees promising callers posing as victims of statutory rape wanting a secret abortion that they wouldn't call the police. One shocking video can be found

.

[HRAAB]

Putting aside the whole pro-choice/pro-life argument, I would be very concerned if my teen aged child (boy or girl) received any medical procedure or prescription without my knowledge. What medical history would they have. I don't know that my teenagers could have given complete, accurate medical history. What kind of medical counseling do they receive when getting contraceptives? How well do teenagers listen and understand? As a parent who is not only financially responsible for their medical care, but also that I love and worry about my children and their health, I would be very concerned that they could receive treatment without my knowledge.

[mommaduck]

Mother's first mistake was signing the consent form and not being self educated as to what she was signing/permitting.

 

Unfortunately, legality trumps morality. The moral issue here started long before the pregnancy. And of course, there will be those that will say that morality is subjective. Don't agree, but that's just the way it is.

[Mrs Mungo]

In theory, yes. But there have been numerous exposes of Planned Parenthood employees promising callers posing as victims of statutory rape wanting a secret abortion that they wouldn't call the police.

 

Well, if I were in the situation of the person taking the call, I might say what I needed to in order to get the girl into the clinic. What might happen once the girl is seen by the clinic might be a different story. I don't think that proves anything at all.

 

Have you ever been to a PP clinic? When Dh and I were first married, before he went active duty I was seen at a PP clinic for bc. They talked a lot about different risk factors, using a secondary form of protection, all sorts of things. I believe, based on my experiences, that once they had such a girl in their clinic most PP providers would talk her into reporting it herself.

 

Putting aside the whole pro-choice/pro-life argument, I would be very concerned if my teen aged child (boy or girl) received any medical procedure or prescription without my knowledge. What medical history would they have. I don't know that my teenagers could have given complete, accurate medical history. What kind of medical counseling do they receive when getting contraceptives? How well do teenagers listen and understand? As a parent who is not only financially responsible for their medical care, but also that I love and worry about my children and their health, I would be very concerned that they could receive treatment without my knowledge.

 

This is what I'm saying.

[m0mmaBuck]

Putting aside the whole pro-choice/pro-life argument, I would be very concerned if my teen aged child (boy or girl) received any medical procedure or prescription without my knowledge. What medical history would they have. I don't know that my teenagers could have given complete, accurate medical history. What kind of medical counseling do they receive when getting contraceptives? How well do teenagers listen and understand? As a parent who is not only financially responsible for their medical care, but also that I love and worry about my children and their health, I would be very concerned that they could receive treatment without my knowledge.

 

On the same lines, what if this child started to hemorrhage, develop an infection, or some other complication as a result of the procedure and the parent had no idea a procedure had even been performed? How could the parent respond appropriately if they weren't apprised of the situation? And how long would the teen wait before disclosing the information to the parent? Scary.

[LisaKinVA]

What concerns me is NOT the legallity/illegality of the actual abortion...which, by all accounts was perfectly legal according to state law -- it's the reported call to "secrecy."

 

By telling a minor child to "keep the procedure a secret from her parents, and the procedure would be free, without charge..." actually smacks a bit of undue influence. An If-then scenario...

 

I don't think ANYONE should feel they "have" to keep something like that a secret. It can be a traumatic, scary experience -- and people should have all the support they can get.

 

While the girl may, or may not, have been inclined towards an abortion, I don't know -- her mother is pro-choice -- so probably not the my mom would "kill" me if I had an abortion, daughter living in fear scenario.

[Renthead Mommy]

 

It's just sad all the way around. I would hope that I would have a better relationship with my daughter (if I had one).

 

 

a

 

But don't you see, things like this are set up for kids who DON'T have that kind of relationship. That's great if your kid can come to you, tell you they're pregnant and you support them. But a lot of kids just don't have that.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Renthead Mommy

[Mrs Mungo]

But don't you see, things like this are set up for kids who DON'T have that kind of relationship. That's great if your kid can come to you, tell you they're pregnant and you support them. But a lot of kids just don't have that.

 

This is absolutely true, and I understand that it's a huge problem. I'm not discounting that.

 

However, I do think they are mandatory reporters and should be reporting cases of statutory rape. Maybe it would help, maybe it would mean a girl is removed from the home of an abusive stepfather.

 

I also think the medical conundrum is a huge problem. Complications are *not* rare.

[funschooler5]

I have a question. Are parents allowed to force their underage teens to carry a pregnancy to full term against their wishes? Is that why the laws (ones that allow underage teens to have abortions without parental consent) are in place? Or are they there so the teens can avoid an unpleasant conversation with their parents?

 

It's a very fine line here, between parental rights and the rights of the teenagers. I can see both sides of the situation.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have a question. Are parents allowed to force their underage teens to carry a pregnancy to full term against their wishes? Is that why the laws (ones that allow underage teens to have abortions without parental consent) are in place? Or are they there so the teens can avoid an unpleasant conversation with their parents?

 

This link is the Juvenile Law Center. It deals with points of law, it's not debate-y. http://jlc.org/factsheets/30/

 

eta: here is what Washington state says (I'm not posting the link because it is from a partisan site but this bit is just discussing the law):

Do I need my parent's permission to get an abortion?

No. Young women do not need parental permission to obtain an abortion in Washington. In 1975 the Washington Supreme Court overturned a parental consent requirement as an unconstitutional violation of a young woman's privacy.

<snip>

Abortion is not the only area where state law allows a minor to be treated without parental consent. For example, minors over the age of 13 years can obtain outpatient treatment without parental consent for drug and alcohol dependency, mental health problems, and sexually transmitted diseases. In these areas, the disclosure to some parents could harm the minor, and the minor might not seek treatment if it were conditioned on parental disclosure. The abortion decision raises similar issues for some young women.

 

It's a very fine line here, between parental rights and the rights of the teenagers. I can see both sides of the situation.

I agree. Edited March 25, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

See, this is where CA law makes no sense to me. On the one hand, it says that having s*x with a minor is a crime (felony or misdemeanor depending on the age of the partner). On the other hand, it says girls as young as 12 can get contraception or abortion. So it's illegal for them to have s*x but legal for them to get contraception or have an abortion? Shouldn't it be the same age for both? :confused:

 

I don't know about CA law, but those laws tend to be somewhat similar throughout North America.

 

It's illegal for an ADULT to have sex with a minor. Not for two minors to have sex together. Over here, there needs to be less than 2 years difference between the two teenagers, if one of them is below 14. So a 12yo could have sex with a 14yo, but not with a 16yo.

 

There are many clauses to these kinds of laws. It's quite possible this girl was having a legal sex life.

[Perry]

 

However, I do think they are mandatory reporters and should be reporting cases of statutory rape.

 

State laws will vary. In Iowa, we have to report abuse, but not necessarily illegal behavior.

AGuide to Mandatory Reporting Of Sexual Abuse and Minors

Here you will find a guide designed to help professional, who work with minors to understand Iowa Mandatory Reporting Laws with regard to sexual abuse. Your main goal as a mandatory reporter is to protect children and youth. The aim of this brochure is to help you make more informed decisions about when you must report and when you can report. Remember that you will not be penalized for reporting when law does not require you to. You can be penalized if you fail to make a report when it is required. As professionals we need to let our agencies’ policies, our experience, and common sense guide us when we are not required by law to report.

 

 

 

Mandatory Reporting Under Age 12

 

 

 

 

 

(not including age 12)

 

 

 

· Any suspected or known sexual activity by a caretaker or non-caretaker with a minor under age 12 is a mandatory reporting situation to the Department of Human Services (DHS).

· DHS investigates reports of sexual activity by a caretaker with a minor under age 12 and refers criminal acts to Law Enforcement for possible criminal investigation.

· DHS refers reports of sexual activity by a non-caretaker with a minor under 12 to Law Enforcement for possible joint assessment and allegations.

Mandatory Reporting of Sexual Abuse with a Minor Age 12 up to age 18

by a Caretaker (not including age 18)

· Any suspected or known sexual activity by a caretaker with a minor age 12 up to age 18 is a mandatory reporting situation.

 

 

Some professionals that have frequent contact with children, such as doctors, teachers, nurses, and social workers, are required by state law to report cases of suspected child abuse and neglect to DHS.

 

 

 

 

Mandatory Reporting Examples

 

 

 

· An 11-year-old states that s/he has had sex with a 14-year-old. The 11-year-old is unable to consent to sexual activity because s/he is under 12. This activity must be reported to DHS.

· A 13-year-old boy states that his stepfather is fondling him. The stepfather is a caretaker. This activity must be reported to DHS.

· A 16-year-old girl states that she is being forced to have sex with her father. Again, the father is a caretaker and the activity must be reported to DHS.

Upon a mandatory reporter becoming aware of the suspected or known activity, an oral report must be made to DHS within 24 hours. A written report must be sent to DHS within 48 hours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

REMEMBER, THE POINT OF MANDATORY REPORTING IS TO PROTECT CHILDREN. IN ALL CASES, REPORT IMMINENT DANGER TO LAW ENFORCEMENT.

 

 

 

 

 

IMPORTANT INFORMATION

 

 

 

 

 

DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES: 1(800) 362-2178

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.dhs.state.ia.us/reportingchildabuse.asp

 

 

 

 

 

IOWA SEXUAL ABUSE HOTLINE: 1(800) 284-7821

Permissive Reporting of Sexual Abuse

 

 

 

 

 

Ages 12 up to 18 with a Non-Caretaker

 

 

 

· A permissive reporting situation occurs when an individual uses personal or professional judgment based on individual circumstances to determine whether or not to make a report to DHS.

· Suspected or known sexual activity by a non-caretaker with a minor age 12 up to age 18 may be a permissive reporting situation. A reporter will use professional judgment based on individual circumstances when deciding whether or not to make a permissive report to the Department of Human Services (DHS).

· DHS may turn reports of sexual activity with a minor age 12 up to age 18 and a non-caretaker over to Law Enforcement.

 

 

CONTACT LAW ENFORCEMENT IMMEDIATELY

 

 

 

IF YOU BELIEVE A MINOR IS IN IMMINENT DANGER.

 

 

Permissive Reporting Examples:

· A 13-year-old tells a 16-year-old friend that they can have sex, so they do. The 16 year old has committed criminal sexual abuse. This may be a situation that you would want to report to DHS.

· A 15-year-old and a 20-year-old friend have sexual contact that the 15-year-old requests. The 20-year- old has committed criminal sexual abuse. Again, you may want to report this to DHS.

· Two 13-year-olds have sexual contact. Neither is old enough to consent to sexual contact. Either or both have sexually abused the other and can be charged.

 

Points to Consider:

· 12- and 13-year-old minors are unable to give legal consent for sexual activity.

· If a 14- or 15 year old minor has a partner who is less than 4 years older, s/he can give legal consent for sexual activity as long as s/he is not being coerced.

· As long as a 16- or 17-year-old minor is not being coerced, s/he is of legal age to consent to sexual activity according to the Iowa Criminal Code.

 

YOU ARE REQUIRED TO REPORT ABUSE, NOT NECESSARILY ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR.

 

 

 

Questions to Consider When Deciding Whether to Make a Report to DHS:

· Was the sexual activity consensual? Were both parties truly free to give consent?

· What is the age difference between the youth? What is the difference in maturity levels and sexual experience? Is one youth preying on another or is this experimentation?

· What are the abuse survivor’s thoughts or feelings regarding a report?

· What will be the impact on the minor involved in the event? Will his/her life be improved by reporting?

· Does the person with whom the minor is engaging in sexual activity hold a position of authority over the minor? Is authority used to gain sexual contact (e.g. a coach, teacher or boss)?

· What would the legal consequences be for the youth, if a report is filed and law enforcement becomes involved?

· How will the families involved react? Will the parents withdraw their support?

· Will the legal status or documentation of the youth or their families be, or perceived to be, in jeopardy if reported?

· If reported, will the minor receive the help needed, such as counseling, information on pregnancy prevention and STI testing, prevention and treatment and other life skills?

 

 

This publication was developed by a coalition of service providers in FutureNet’s Region 5 who work with teens. After months of comparing notes and swapping stories, we began to research the Iowa Code. Once we understood the laws and how they pertain to mandatory reporting, we wanted to share what we learned. This brochure is not a substitute for legal counsel or your own agency’s policies regarding mandatory reporting. Thank you!

 

 

 

www.iowafuturenet.org

 

 

 

 

 

[LisaKinVA]

But don't you see, things like this are set up for kids who DON'T have that kind of relationship. That's great if your kid can come to you, tell you they're pregnant and you support them. But a lot of kids just don't have that.

 

There is nothing to say she didn't have this type of relationship with her mother.

 

In fact, her mother found out about the procedure (after the fact) FROM her daughter. She went with her daughter to the doctor for an unrelated exam, where, during routine questioning the daughter said she had, in fact, had an abortion IN FRONT of her mother.

 

A girl who was THAT frightened of her mother that she wouldn't want to go to her would lie through her teeth to the doctor. OR, might ask if she could see the doctor on her own (my mom never went in with me after I was about 10, she waited outside).

 

Which further makes me wonder if the whole reason she DIDN'T tell her mother, was because she was expressly told NOT to.

[Mrs Mungo]

Which further makes me wonder if the whole reason she DIDN'T tell her mother, was because she was expressly told NOT to.

 

And that's a definite problem if teens who have good relationships with their parents are being coerced into not telling.

[Renthead Mommy]

There is nothing to say she didn't have this type of relationship with her mother.

 

In fact, her mother found out about the procedure (after the fact) FROM her daughter. She went with her daughter to the doctor for an unrelated exam, where, during routine questioning the daughter said she had, in fact, had an abortion IN FRONT of her mother.

 

A girl who was THAT frightened of her mother that she wouldn't want to go to her would lie through her teeth to the doctor. OR, might ask if she could see the doctor on her own (my mom never went in with me after I was about 10, she waited outside).

 

Which further makes me wonder if the whole reason she DIDN'T tell her mother, was because she was expressly told NOT to.

 

I have no clue what type of relationship THIS ONE GIRL had with her mother. I wasn't talking specifically about her. I was refering to the vast number kids who don't have these types of relationships.

[msjones]

I've been thinking about this a lot today.

 

It seems to me that everything was done legally. But, it still seems to me that something is wrong with this situation. Now, obviously, if you are pro-life you feel that the abortion is what was wrong. But, I'm not wanting to discuss pro-choice vs pro-life (been there, done that), but to discuss the issues around a minor having access to abortion without a parent advocate involved.

 

If all pregnant women have the right to an abortion, then minors are included in that right. There are plenty of clinics that would have counseled this girl to have an abortion -- at least one just a few blocks from her school. So, the issue isn't simply the health clinic on campus.

 

I guess my question is this: who is responsible for these girls after their abortions? Who could she sue if it were botched? Is this the state's responsibility? I assume the mother released the school and clinic from any liability when she signed that form.

 

Any lawyers out there? I just find it amazing that that level of medical treatment it available to a child with no parent/adult involved in any way. And it bothers me that the school is at least peripherally involved.

 

I'm also interested in hearing your thoughts if you support this type of clinic. I can see both sides of the argument, but reading this article left me on the fence.

[AFwife Claire]

:iagree:

 

 

 

 

I'm happy that the girl had a choice in what she wanted to do with her body.

 

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure she had a choice as far as what she did to end up pregnant. Her poor choice there should not be a death knell for someone who had no choice in the matter.

[Mergath]

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure she had a choice as far as what she did to end up pregnant. Her poor choice there should not be a death knell for someone who had no choice in the matter.

 

Do you know that for certain? There are a lot of girls out there who are regularly molested by male relatives. Should they be forced to carry their abuser's pregnancy to term, along with being forced to possibly even inform the abuser if she does want an abortion? Personally, I don't think so.

[AngelBee]

I used this article as a jumping-off point for a discussion with my DD.

 

She said that she would not do anything to get pregnant, and told me her reasons for that. Knowing DD, she means what she says.

 

I asked if she would be afraid to tell me, and she said no.

 

She said she thinks my response would be, "You're an idiot [for getting pregnant]. Let's go buy baby clothes."

 

She knows me well, too, although I would not call her an idiot.

Your post made me smile. :) You are a good mama and you have a sweet dd. :D :grouphug:

[Crimson Wife]

If all pregnant women have the right to an abortion, then minors are included in that right.

 

Why? There are plenty of things that we as a society have no problem restricting to legal adults under the assumption that minors are not mature enough to make those kinds of decisions for themselves. A minor can't legally pierce her ears or visit a tanning salon in my state but she can consent to a major operation that could leave her infertile or even dead? :confused:

[AngelBee]

Why? There are plenty of things that we as a society have no problem restricting to legal adults under the assumption that minors are not mature enough to make those kinds of decisions for themselves. A minor can't legally pierce her ears or visit a tanning salon in my state but she can consent to a major operation that could leave her infertile or even dead? :confused:

:iagree:Minors also can not drink, gamble, buy smokes, tp, spray paint or eggs in a store. :D They can not drive without training and parents permission. Can not join the army.

 

Same rules should apply. If you need parents permission for these things, you should sure as heck need it for medical procedures, regardless of how you feel about abortion.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Exactly! So rather than covering up the evidence of a rape by performing an abortion, the girl ought to be receiving psychological counseling and legal assistance.

 

 

This is very offensive. Abortion does not "cover up the evidence of a rape". Rape kits are done (typically) looooong before an abortion. 'Compassion' for a rape victim in the form of anti-abortion rhetoric is not helpful.

 

Forcing a rape victim to birth her attacker's baby is not something I could stand behind.

 

 

I'm glad that the girl had access to a safe abortion.

 

I have met a lot of kids who have been TORTURED in life. I can't help but think that not starting out in this life at all would have been a much better outcome for them. :(

[msjones]

Why? There are plenty of things that we as a society have no problem restricting to legal adults under the assumption that minors are not mature enough to make those kinds of decisions for themselves. A minor can't legally pierce her ears or visit a tanning salon in my state but she can consent to a major operation that could leave her infertile or even dead? :confused:

 

I didn't mean that they necessarily should have that right, but that they already do.

 

Given that it is already legal for a minor to obtain an abortion without parental consent, my question is: who is responsible for the well-being of the minor if something goes wrong?

[Mergath]

This is very offensive. Abortion does not "cover up the evidence of a rape". Rape kits are done (typically) looooong before an abortion. 'Compassion' for a rape victim in the form of anti-abortion rhetoric is not helpful.

 

Forcing a rape victim to birth her attacker's baby is not something I could stand behind.

 

 

I'm glad that the girl had access to a safe abortion.

 

I have met a lot of kids who have been TORTURED in life. I can't help but think that not starting out in this life at all would have been a much better outcome for them. :(

 

:iagree:

 

Not to mention that having the child in order to preserve evidence would be a fairly messed up thing to do.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:iagree:

 

Not to mention that having the child in order to preserve evidence would be a fairly messed up thing to do.

 

Can you imagine a child growing up thinking, "I was just evidence of a crime"?

[Aggie]

This is very offensive. Abortion does not "cover up the evidence of a rape". Rape kits are done (typically) looooong before an abortion. 'Compassion' for a rape victim in the form of anti-abortion rhetoric is not helpful.

 

Forcing a rape victim to birth her attacker's baby is not something I could stand behind.

 

 

I'm glad that the girl had access to a safe abortion.

 

I have met a lot of kids who have been TORTURED in life. I can't help but think that not starting out in this life at all would have been a much better outcome for them. :(

 

That's awful.

 

Surely not all babies who are aborted would live a tortured life.

 

What about all the aborted babies who would have had a wonderful life? Loved by families, been the joy of their parents' lives? The ones who would greatly contribute to society? Make great strides in music, medicine, politics?

 

I've not met one parent of a child who has suffered terribly with cancer (some would say the 'cures' are torture) who would say they wish their child had never been born despite the awful circumstances the child has lived with.

 

This is not a reason to abort innocent babies.

[Mergath]

 

I've not met one parent of a child who has suffered terribly with cancer (some would say the 'cures' are torture) who would say they wish their child had never been born despite the awful circumstances the child has lived with.

 

 

That's not exactly the kind of thing a parent would admit to, though. I'm sure there are parents out there who do feel it would have been better for the child to never have been brought into the world so that he or she could have been spared all the pain. In our society, however, you just don't admit to something like that.

[Crimson Wife]

This is very offensive. Abortion does not "cover up the evidence of a rape". Rape kits are done (typically) looooong before an abortion.

 

You're assuming that the victim went to the hospital/police in time to have a rape exam done. If she's a victim of statutory rape, this is unlikely to be the case.

 

Do abortion clinics turn over the baby's remains to the police as criminal evidence proving the identity of the father? Or do they just discard them as "medical waste"? :(

 

I'm sorry but performing a secret abortion on a young teen IS covering up the evidence of a crime.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

You're assuming that the victim went to the hospital/police in time to have a rape exam done. If she's a victim of statutory rape, this is unlikely to be the case.

 

Do abortion clinics turn over the baby's remains to the police as criminal evidence proving the identity of the father? Or do they just discard them as "medical waste"? :(

 

I'm sorry but performing a secret abortion on a young teen IS covering up the evidence of a crime.

 

 

That is assuming that a young teen getting pregnant is a crime. I've never heard of the product of an abortion being used as evidence. Not saying that it couldn't happen, just havn't ever heard of it.

 

 

And, a PP is right in saying that a parent who has been through a traumatic illness with a child would probably NOT say publicly that they would have opted to abort, if they knew then what they know now.

 

I was speaking specifically about kids who have been abused.

 

I really hate hearing, ''but, there are so many parents who want to adopt!"

 

Then why do we still have so many kids in foster care? (the ones who are eligible for adoption, not the ones who are in the process of reunification.) There are so many kids waiting to be adopted!!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

To get back to the original point of this thread:

 

The mom signed a consent form.

 

The girl who was supposedly anti-abortion had one.

 

Nothing illegal. I found it appalling that the mom was crying "my rights were violated!!" It wasn't about HER so-called rights. It as about her daughter.

[Cortana]

Regardless of my feelings about abortion, my biggest concern is living in a state where my children can receive medical care/treatment without my consent/knowledge.

 

As an adult, I can barely remember my own medications and drug allergies. Now let's talk about a teenager who is scared out of her wits, nervous and worried. Is she going to remember any and all medical conditions she has? Is she going to remember what drugs she's allergic too, if she even knows what they are? What happens if she has a complication? Now the situation has gone from bad to worse.

 

On top of that is the part about the girl being told to keep quiet and the procedure would be free. Kids are supposed to be taught to talk to someone if they've been molested or raped or been offered drugs or saw someone cheat on a test or what have you; on the other hand they're being told to be quiet so they can have a free abortion or get birth control? This is messed up logic.

 

One more reason I don't want to live in this state anymore.

[msjones]

Regardless of my feelings about abortion, my biggest concern is living in a state where my children can receive medical care/treatment without my consent/knowledge.

 

As an adult, I can barely remember my own medications and drug allergies. Now let's talk about a teenager who is scared out of her wits, nervous and worried. Is she going to remember any and all medical conditions she has? Is she going to remember what drugs she's allergic too, if she even knows what they are? What happens if she has a complication? Now the situation has gone from bad to worse.

 

On top of that is the part about the girl being told to keep quiet and the procedure would be free. Kids are supposed to be taught to talk to someone if they've been molested or raped or been offered drugs or saw someone cheat on a test or what have you; on the other hand they're being told to be quiet so they can have a free abortion or get birth control? This is messed up logic.

 

One more reason I don't want to live in this state anymore.

 

Well said, Cortana.

So, can anyone answer my question: who would be held responsible for any complications arising from this girl's abortion? Who is it that is willing to assume the liability?

[AngelBee]

Well said, Cortana.

So, can anyone answer my question: who would be held responsible for any complications arising from this girl's abortion? Who is it that is willing to assume the liability?

Hoping the school. :glare:

 

This whole thing is so sad! :(

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Well said, Cortana.

So, can anyone answer my question: who would be held responsible for any complications arising from this girl's abortion? Who is it that is willing to assume the liability?

 

 

Wouldn't the Dr be responsible?

 

Someone asked earlier "who could she sue if somethin went wrong?"

 

The same person she would have sued either way: The Dr.

 

The MOM is the one "at fault" here. SHE signed her rights away.

[EthiopianFood]

I really hate hearing, ''but, there are so many parents who want to adopt!"

 

Then why do we still have so many kids in foster care? (the ones who are eligible for adoption, not the ones who are in the process of reunification.) There are so many kids waiting to be adopted!!

 

Because these kids have been removed from situations that were bad enough that their parent/s couldn't keep them (and parents are given MANY MANY chances), resulting in sometimes serious issues that may be very difficult to resolve. There is also a huge difference between adopting a newborn who has never known another home, and adopting a child in the throes of their teen years. There are also people who just don't want a child older than a newborn, but telling people to choose adoption, not abortion, doesn't make this fact a problem at all. Most people just don't want to adopt at all, obviously, but the fact that a newborn adoption costs $30,000+ shows that adoption agencies are far from desperate to find a home for these kids.

 

Apples to oranges.

[elizabeth]

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PIMA.pdf A summary chart of the laws in every state. If not on the list ,then there are no restrictions.

Here is the law in Washington state http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.02

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Because these kids have been removed from situations that were bad enough that their parent/s couldn't keep them (and parents are given MANY MANY chances), resulting in sometimes serious issues that may be very difficult to resolve. There is also a huge difference between adopting a newborn who has never known another home, and adopting a child in the throes of their teen years. There are also people who just don't want a child older than a newborn, but telling people to choose adoption, not abortion, doesn't make this fact a problem at all. Most people just don't want to adopt at all, obviously, but the fact that a newborn adoption costs $30,000+ shows that adoption agencies are far from desperate to find a home for these kids.

 

Apples to oranges.

 

 

Yes, I know. I used to remove the kids. Adoptions don't cost as much as you quoted when they adopt through the state, but then we are talking about the abused kids that most people don't want. (Which is what I was referring to in an earlier message I wrote about kids who would have been better off not being brought into the world just to be tortured.)

 

Not apples to oranges at all.

[EthiopianFood]

I'm not sure who to quote on this one, so anyone who has an interest, I welcome your comments. :)

 

If you are prochoice, but don't feel comfortable with teens being able to have an abortion without parental notification (for the reasons already stated, which are very valid, IMO), what would you like the law to require? If a parent can decide for the teen, doesn't that essentially make the girl's body into the parent's property? The more I try to figure out how to phrase my thoughts, the more I think there isn't a perfect solution, no matter what your beliefs are, but I'm still interested in others' ideas.