Listened to mp3 talks....SWB said no creative writing??

[2squared]

I listened to the elementary talks, and I want to chew on something that I think I heard correctly. I believe I heard SWB say that every child needs to learn expository writing but they do not need to complete creative writing assignments. She said that if your dc wants to write creatively they would do it and you can take it from there. She also said that if your dc don't want to write creatively that you shouldn't make them. Did anyone else hear the same thing or is my interpretation off?

 

In my poll of two - dh & me - neither of us has needed to write creatively since high school. Our careers - attorney and accountant - don't lend themselves to creative writing. :D

 

So....what gaping holes do you think will my dc have if they aren't required to complete creative writing assignments? What's your take on SWB's comments?

 

I'm looking forward to everyone's thoughts!

[lovemykids]

Yes, you are correct. That is what she believes. You should not force a child to do creative writing. Many children, left to their own devices, will write creatively by themselves.

I think that many publishers include creative writing because it’s fun for some children, and so they will be motivated to actually write more, and let’s face it, any type of writing is better than no writing at all.

But then those publishers do not have a writing plan lined up like Susan does in TWTM. I do not think it will create holes...

[razorbackmama]

I completely agree with SWB. For those who have that bent already, creative writing is awesome, and more than likely, they do it anyway on their own time. For those who do not have that bent, creative writing is pure torture, and like you said, they won't need it as adults.

[homeschoolally]

I completely agree with SWB. For those who have that bent already, creative writing is awesome, and more than likely, they do it anyway on their own time. For those who do not have that bent, creative writing is pure torture, and like you said, they won't need it as adults.

:iagree: I've always felt this way myself, glad to hear SWB speak about it. It was liberating when I made the decision to take creative writing off the schedule in our homeschool. I'm homeschooling a child who has little interest, or need IMO, for it. We've taken the opportunity to spend more time on essays.

[Guest]

I have such mixed feelings about this whole issue.

 

I think that not FORCING kids to write "creatively" is fine. In fact, I greatly respect SWB for preserving the space for kids to write in private, which is how many writers get their start, just as I really respect her for preserving special books that kids really love from having to be written about and analyzed. And I'm sure, although I don't remember it ever being explicitly stated, that the classical curriculum's emphasis on literary and rhetorical analysis is probably assumed not only to teach kids how to analyze what they read, but also to give them an acquaintance with techniques and tools they might use in their own literary writing.

 

This is different, however, from specifically encouraging and guiding kids in their exploration of imaginative writing of all kinds. Again, nowhere is it stated explicitly, but the overall impression I get from SWB is that "creative writing" is assumed to be literary fiction, primarily in the form of short stories or novels. Although her resources include lots of other kinds of texts, from humorous history to imaginative math writing on occasion, kids never spend time talking about these kinds of books or why writers would choose to approach a nonfiction subject with fictional strategies or tools or plots. There are a lot of genres and innovation that go unexplored, which in turns means that it will probably not occur to kids to investigate them from the point of view of a writer.

 

So are kids missing something without a creative writing program? That depends what you mean by creative writing. If you define it solely as the writing of literary novels, poetry, short stories, classic drama, in the most conventional sense: no, of course most people will go most of their lives without the need to draw on these skills. However, if you open up the definition to include creative writing about science, math, the arts, politics, current events, etc., then yes, kids are indeed missing out: not missing content per se, or something they might miss on an exam in later life or some skill they might need in the workplace. Rather, they are missing a chance to engage differently across the curriculum, to play with ideas in writing in new ways, to have fun re-imagining and interpreting content.

 

I don't know whether the distinction I am making is entirely clear here. I'm thinking of books which approach science in rhyme, or science assessments that might include the option to invent a suspect's confession to sum up the evidence in a unit on chemical forensics; a math fable like "Flatland"; Tom Lehrer's song "The Elements"; making a comic book version of the events leading to the American Revolution; parodies of classic poems, or bureaucratic prose; turning a favorite short story or a historical event (or anything else) into a radio play and producing it complete with sound effects; all kinds of wild and wonderful stuff that is not just enrichment, but a way of understanding in its own right, of solidifying learning and sharing ideas. Some kids may gravitate toward this kind of project all on their own, but 1) they won't necessarily have the resources or know-how to follow through on their ideas without help; and 2) they will be few and far between who come up with this on their own, versus quite a larger number who may find such projects attractive if they are exposed to examples, discuss them, find out how the writer got the idea, etc.

 

I'm not suggesting abandoning the classical ship to focus on popular culture. Nor am I thinking of an incremental program of carefully meted-out exercises. But elementary and middle school children should be encouraged to think of "writing" in the largest sense, to think of writing as including not only expository and overtly literary genres but also as a field of play that crosses over all subject matter. They should be given not only a chance, but an invitation, to explore other kinds of written responses to what they read, encounter, build, or do.

 

I just realized how LOOOOONNNNGGGG this is, and I apologize. It's just something I have given great thought to for a number of years now and I was delighted to have the place to spill out what I've been thinking.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Guest

[Aubrey]

She says the same thing in WTM, &...I'm not entirely sure what I think. I see her point. I remember *having* to write a story in 1st g, & I hated it because I couldn't do it. Same in 3rd.

 

In 5th, though, we had a teacher who *taught* creative writing. It turned out to be my favorite thing ever. Still. I write novels in my spare time. It's the only thing that I maybe love more than hs'ing.

 

If it had never been taught, I would have gone on thinking I hated it. If it had been taught better in 1st? I don't know. I'd have either loved it sooner, or I wasn't developmentally ready for it.

 

In the end? I think giving us those blank books every other yr in elem was meant to be *fun.* I overanalyzed the project, much like I do things today. For ME, having courses in creative writing has been so important. I don't know how anyone would have known, though, if they hadn't been offered to everyone.

 

So maybe a gentle push every once in a while along w/ the tools to do it well?

[lovemykids]

:) Yes, maybe. I also think that Susan’s point is not to force it when they are young, as someone stated, I believe.

We love creative writing in this household. (I should have mentioned that) My girls prefer creative writing curricula over all others. They also love to do their own creative writing projects. The result is that we are all pretty happy with writing classes.

[Colleen in NS]

I also think that Susan’s point is not to force it when they are young, as someone stated, I believe.

 

I think so, too. I introduce creative writing topics via R&S writing lessons as we come across them, because there is helpful analytical info. to be learned in them (plot and characters in a story, how to punctuate direct quotations and how to split them into paragraphs, info. about a poems rhyme and rhythm, etc.). But I don't force my kids to *use* these lessons "across the curriculum." My ds gets the analytical info. out of them, and comes up with a basic poem that rhymes, but I imagine dd, who writes poems and stories for fun, will probably take more out of those lessons for fun and try out some things. And I'll encourage her, but not force her. If she shows interest, I would try to find a more concentrated creative writing program. So, I think the lessons (such as the creative writing ones in R&S) are useful for input, but there doesn't need to be output. Expository writing, OTOH, is very useful in various parts of life.

[SoCal Sandra]

I agree that creative writing should never be forced on a child. KarenAnne makes some excellent points, though. Why not test the waters by offering a few creative writing assignments with guidance and suggestions about how to get started? How many of our children have rewritten a tale or fable using the classical method of imitation and have put their own creative spin on it? Quite a few, I'd guess. That's creative writing, in my opinion.

 

Yes, few of us will produce works of creative writing in our professions, but does that mean our work won't benefit from the skills and enlarged perspective that comes from a foray into the world of creative writing? Creative writing gives the student an opportunity to use that expansive vocabulary he/she has developed and it hones the use of literary devices that bring a subtle enhancement to academic writing. Creative writing can foster creative thinking, and that's something that can benefit every profession.

 

It is true that in twenty years of practicing law I never had to write creatively, but I believe that dabbling in creative writing brought a nuance to my writing that wouldn't have been there otherwise.

 

jmho

Edited February 26, 2010 by SoCal Sandra

[Mom-ninja.]

I completely agree with SWB. BTW, it seems MCT feels the same about creative writing.

 

Creative writing is for fun if the child wants to. Other than the fun factor I see no purpose in it.

[Sue G in PA]

At first read, I didn't agree only b/c I always loved writing and did well with it...all types. Then I had a dd who was not a creative writer and HATED it. I forced her and she hated it even more. So, I came around to her point of view. Some people really just weren't born to write creatively. Expository is a different story...much more mechanical and can be taught. KWIM?

[tonya in sc]

We do lots of brainstorming techniques and little writing games and exercises that get the juices flowing. Only 1 of my 5 kids shows any interest in creative writing, and she does it every once in a while. I keep doing the exercises to build confidence and make them think about things like word choice and story parts and symbolism, etc. We don't do "full" assignments like short stories or plays because that would be frustrating for most of them, thus not beneficial, IMHO.

 

t.

[Colleen in NS]

does that mean our work won't benefit from the skills and enlarged perspective that comes from a foray into the world of creative writing? Creative writing gives the student an opportunity to use that expansive vocabulary he/she has developed and it hones the use of literary devices that bring a subtle enhancement to academic writing. Creative writing can foster creative thinking, and that's something that can benefit every profession.

 

I suppose it's sort of like art appreciation vs. learning drawing skills, isn't it. Hmm...this is all good food for thought.

[abrightmom]

I just listened to SWB's "A Plan for Teaching Writing" (the elementary one -- will finish by listening to the others to get her big picture plan). It was EXCELLENT! The statements about creative writing RESONATED with me (I must be one of those non-creative writers because I suffered under the expectation to write creatively throughout my school experiences).

 

It makes perfect sense to teach the skill of writing via her "plan" (or something comparable if that exists) and it is best demonstrated (or perhaps only demonstrated??) in expository writing. She said that nobody ever HAS to write creatively but everyone needs to know how to write an essay.

 

I do think that SoCal Sandra's advice/views are GREAT and they seem like a perfect approach -- teach the skills according to SWB's recommendation (she is, after all, an expert here and her resume qualifies her to tell us how to pull off teaching writing!!) BUT explore the creative writing side at your leisure. Perhaps there is a child in your crew that will thrive/flourish with creative writing. Perhaps there are things to be learned/discovered by enjoying some creative writing assignments or classes. But, don't make that the focus -- our job is to teach the skills and our goal is to produce a good high school writer!!

 

I hated journals in school and often wrote things like "blah blah blah blah I have nothing to say" in them :). I never did see the point!! I like journaling now but no one is telling me to do it and my English teacher isn't grading my "work". There is no expectation that creative genius ought to flow from my brain and be written down for all to read! :lol:

 

Perhaps a skeleton plan would be to make SWB's writing plan THE FOCUS and bring creative writing in on the side when it seems appropriate (not sure about the "when" here). Be willing to bag the creative writing if your kiddo is wilting under the expectation. But stick to your guns in teaching the skills of expository writing because that is a non-negotiable.

 

Fun fun fun!!! Love those seminars and look forward to listening to them again!

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree that creative writing should never be forced on a child. KarenAnne makes some excellent points, though. Why not test the waters by offering a few creative writing assignments with guidance and suggestions about how to get started? How many of our children have rewritten a tale or fable using the classical method of imitation and have put their own creative spin on it? Quite a few, I'd guess. That's creative writing, in my opinion.

 

My girls like creative writing. It *is* something they do on their own. Because of that, I *do* offer information and fun assignments that have to do with creative writing. We do experiment with poetry forms. We play Nanofictionary (it teaches about setting, characters, conflict and resolution). But I don't grade any of those or even require them. I offer them. That's not the same thing as requiring them.

[Ellie]

I don't see a point in emphasizing *creative* writing with children so young...or with children of any age, for that matter. It's just one kind of writing, and it seems sort of silly to require it--or even teach it--before a child knows how to put words together in sentences which make sense, KWIM?

 

When I was in school, the only year I remember *creative* writing assignments was seventh grade.

 

"Creative" writing is WAY over-rated, IMHO.

 

I also don't see the point of *requiring* dc to write in journals which are never evaluated/corrected (and it bugs me to see "journal" turned into a verb, which is a whole other subject, lol).

[cougarmom4]

My understanding was that SWB discouraged creative writing with young children because they don't yet have the skills to do so. Somewhere on this site, I read her article about the process of writing that explained it so well. For young children learning to write, doing creative writing (or even journaling) is challenging because they have to 1) think of WHAT to say AND 2) think of HOW to get it on paper. Reading selections and using narration is her suggestion to teach the HOW to get it down--rather than focusing on coming up with the original ideas at the same time.

 

This was a huge AHA! moment for me...as I hadn't really thought of the process as multi-faceted. And to this day it remains one of the most important things I learned from TWTM.

 

I personally think that after the ability to write narrations, it is important to teach the process of creative writing--brainstorming, parts of a story, character development, plot, etc. Some students will be more naturally inclined to do this type of writing, others not so much. But I think it's an important step or foundation to at least expose our children to such.

[abbeyej]

I don't "teach" or "require" creative writing for my kids at all. But I *encourage* it. They write all the time. Stories, plays, hilariously unfunny and pointless jokes, comic strips, poetry, advertisements for ludicrous inventions, plans for Disney rides, menus for imaginary restaurants, etc, etc. I make sure they're well-supplied with materials (decent paper, good pencils, pens that write evenly, decent colored pencils, blank books, creative stickers [eeBoo has good ones for inspiring story-telling], etc) and I pay attention and comment when they want to show me what they've done. If they ask for help or guidance, I'll give it -- and if they don't ask, I stay out of the way.

 

Very occasionally they will come across a creative writing assignment in some program or other. And we do those. A journal entry by a character in a book, perhaps, or an exercise writing a poem with particular meter and rhyme scheme... But those exercises are not the focus of our writing instruction.

 

I do agree that *forcing* children to try to "write creatively" is frequently counter-productive. But as home schooling parents, we have lots of opportunity to encourage our children and given them the time and freedom to write what they feel, when they feel like it...

 

My oldest is doing a middle school creative writing camp this summer through a local bookstore with an author with whom we're vaguely acquainted. He's really excited about it! But I think it will work so much better because this was *his* choice and he *wants* to be there (and the same is true for the other kids at the camp).

 

So yes, I really do agree with SWB about this. Give kids lots of opportunity to write. And work with them at school time on the skills that they need in order to write. ... But don't *require* them to "be creative".

[Guest]

I am just curious: how many of you find yourself with the need to write an expository essay, in either work or home life? My gut feeling is that essay writing is confined to a relatively narrow band of careers.

 

My husband, for instance, writes all the time in his job as a chemistry professor: writes lectures, grant proposals, and articles. When I was a literature professor I also wrote in those same genres. I have on occasion written letters to the editor and have published a handful of homeschooling articles. Now that I no longer teach/research at the university level, that's about it.

 

Anyone else?

[Rosie_0801]

But don't *require* them to "be creative".

 

You can't get blood out of a stone...

 

If a child has an idea, they will probably go and do something with it. Requiring someone to do something with an idea they don't have is horribly frustrating and won't make them write well. I think people forget that creative writing is made of two parts, creativity *and* writing. You can teach people to write without requiring original ideas, so there is no need to torture poor unfortunate people who can't think on the spot! I loathed creative writing as a child. I didn't have ideas, and as for writing a journal, well I didn't think my personal life was the teacher's business unless I chose to share! I managed to grow up into a person who was able to get an A on a narrative history essay at uni, and I was part of a class where half the students still couldn't do creative writing. I attribute my abilities to the ideas I gained from the books I read, definitely not the creative writing exercises I was forced through.

 

Rosie

[2squared]

I am just curious: how many of you find yourself with the need to write an expository essay, in either work or home life? My gut feeling is that essay writing is confined to a relatively narrow band of careers.

 

I am interested in hearing thoughts on this too. In my work world, I didn't have to write essays, but I did write a gazillion emails, letters, and financial analysis/reports. Writing effectively was extrememly important, especially when trying to not communicate something.

 

I see some people do believe there is value in teaching creative writing. If you believe that, how would you teach creative writing if neither the teacher nor student had any desire to write creatively? Also, aren't some of the benefits of creative writing gained from creative play and through reading creative writing?

[Medieval Mom]

For me, this is an issue of creativity. Do we all grow up needing drawing skills and creative writing skills? No. But, in my opinion, they are a lovely facet of what makes us human-- the ability to create. Now, how you go about developing and using this creativity depends on your own opinion on how important IMAGINATION and CREATIVITY and THE FINE ARTS are. I happen to think that they are very important.

 

If you agree that they are important, you have several options.

 

1) Leave the child to his/her own devices.

2) #1 plus --Create an environment rich with opportunities for creative development. I.E. a kitchen drawer full of watercolors, crayons, brushes, paper, journalling paper, etc.

3) # 1 & 2 plus -- Model the behavior yourself by drawing, keeping a (nature) journal, talking with your spouse about the arts, etc. Reading aloud poetry you've written or enjoyed, etc.

4) # 1-3 plus -- Sit down with your child and tell stories to each other, draw together, explore good art museums, attend plays and concerts, etc.

5) #1-4 plus -- Teach the subject (or have someone else teach the subject).

 

Here's the prickly part, isn't it? Some people feel that they have no desire to teach the subject, or fear that they might run into one of two extremes: 1) forcing creativity where none exists or 2) hampering creativity by forcing the child to adhere to certain artificial rules.

 

I understand these fears, but I do believe that a good creative writing or art or drama or music teacher can teach the subject in an effort to develop the skills necessary for a child to express his/her creativity. I think often the mistake is expecting TOO MUCH of a child, BEFORE THE PROPER FOUNDATION is built. Asking a first grader to "write a story about what you did last summer" is an unrealistic expectation for most first graders. They don't have the proper foundation set.

 

I do think childhood and the entire human experience is enriched by using our creativity. I will also choose to equip my children with the tools and skills they need in order to express themselves well. Almost EVERYONE is able to draw well. Really. And I believe that most people would find joy in creative writing ONCE and IF they had the proper foundation to do so.

 

 

Whew! Off my soapbox now....:leaving:

 

ETA: Oh yes! So, I agree whole-heartedly with SWB; I don't think creative writing ought to be required. On the other hand, I do believe in creating an environment that fosters creativity and developing the tools of writing so that the child can one day (be it at age 7 or 70) be able to express himself clearly. I haven't used it, but I think that CW's method of development is a good one: set the foundations before expecting original work. Was it Michaelangelo that filled notebooks with circles? :)

Edited February 27, 2010 by Medieval Mom

[siloam]

Not to disagree with anyone, but just to put my perspective out there.

 

I started out very Ruth Beechick in philosophy, which is very focused on creative writing. It is the philosophy that SL, LLATL, and Bravewriter/Junglewriter is based on. Our first assignment in 1st grade was to describe a piece of dirt. The TM just talked about how to use the senses to examine it. Needless to say I had to drag the whole assignment out of my dd, who is fairly creative. I found Junglewritier to have better expectations, but still didn't have enough support for me to feel like I knew what I was doing and why.

 

It isn't that SWB wouldn't ever have the same assignment. It is that she would probably develop the skills to be able to do the assignment first.

 

Some children do very well with concrete assignments, and where they struggle is putting emotions into words (me). That is what I see as creative writing, the putting emotions into words. I can come up with good allegories, I can compare things well, I can communicate pretty well (I think-Ok I am a little insure in the area of writing), but tell me I have to put how I feel about something into words and I will probably still be staring at the page 30 mins from now.

 

As someone who came from a RB background I saw SWB's comments as a direct response to RB type writing styles in the younger years and permission to not require emotional writing from older children who are not inclined.

 

Heather

Edited February 26, 2010 by siloam

[Guest]

Write about DIRT????

 

This is similar to what my daughter was assigned during her short-lived flirtation with private school. The arbitrary command to "write a poem about a sailboat" during so-called Free Writing was one of the factors that brought her home again. And this is a child who loves to write!

 

I think one of the difficulties is that people have so many different ideas of what constitutes creative writing and how to go about teaching it -- ranging from letting them do whatever they want to in private, on their own time, to predetermined, micromanaged assignments. And each approach has adherents who think this is The Way to teach writing to all kids.

 

The best exercises/activities I have seen were made up by a children's book author, not an education specialist, a theorist, or a professor. Second best, though, are Peggy Kaye's "Games For Writing." I believe Kaye worked as a tutor or consultant with kids who had frozen up in the classroom or had other problems with writing. The games are social, offbeat, reaching beyond the confines of what usually passes for creative writing. What both these people had in common was a knack for making writing fun, for loosening up kids and getting them to think outside the box (in Kaye's case, literally outside the lined paper). This kind of thinking is always valuable, whether it occurs in the context of writing or any other academic subject.

[siloam]

Write about DIRT????

 

Yep, though to be fair I understand when SL rewrote their LA they put in a lot more teacher helps, but I am told that is still the first assignment in 1st grade. And RB was a paid consultant on the rewrite.

 

Defining terms, getting everyone on the same page is the hardest aspect of a conversation like this one.

 

Heather

 

[lovemykids]

Write about DIRT????

 

:lol::lol::lol:

So funny! Oh my.

I also happen to believe that creativity is important to one's development. But I do not think that children should be forced to write creatively. Encouraged, yes, why not? But forced? No.

Heather,

I love RB and many of her type of creative writing assignments. I love LLATL’s writing, we use it occasionally. We also love Sonlight writing, and I bought the LA specifically for the writing component. But if we run into an assignment that my girls do not like, we simply skip it. No harm done. If they need help in expressing themselves or with a certain assignment from SL, I help them. It works for us. But I respect the fact that it didn’t work for you, or anyone else.

I do require that my girls do summaries and outlining though. They also have to do book reports, and soon my oldest will learn how to do a small research report. I want them to be prepared if they should have to go to public school. (not that I am planning it, but you never know, especially in my situation)

So, I do agree with SWB that it should not be required. Although Susan does recommend a creative writing workbook, Wordsmith Apprentice. While it works on many basic writing skills, it also encourages creative writing in a non-threatening way. And it helps them to do it successfully.

Okay, I am going back to actually read through these new posts now. :001_smile:

[lovemykids]

As someone who came from a RB background I saw SWB's comments as a direct response to RB type writing styles in the younger years and permission to not require emotional writing from older children who are not inclined.

 

Heather

 

Yes. :iagree:

[siloam]

The problems I had with SL were two fold. I couldn't see where I was going and why and it was a lot of work to get my kids to do the assignments. My oldest did OK with it. She is the least concrete in her thinking of anyone in the house. By the time my 2nd dd came around, I was and still am one step behind. Anything that isn't easy to do just doesn't get done, unless I have a really good reason to buck it up. Then we are back to problem number 1. Why am I doing this again? :D

 

Needless to say SL writing never had gotten done after my oldest. :001_huh: Though I still use the rest of the LA. I adore the dictation (and I still use the old LA with twice the dictation as the new).

 

I am glad it is there for people like you who it does work for! I am sure half of my problems with it is my lack of skill, or confidence in the area. I don't second guess this stuff with math, because that I own, right? Which sums up why RB didn't work for me all the way around. I needed more mastery because of gaps of my own. RB works better for people who don't have gaps or who don't get stressed about not having the answer when asked. I found myself saying, "I don't know" too much. I also didn't make the time to find the answers and was really stressed because I knew I was dropping the ball.

 

Heather

 

[Rosie_0801]

So the moral to the story is that we should unschool creative writing? ;)

 

Rosie

[Medieval Mom]

So the moral to the story is that we should unschool creative writing? ;)

 

Rosie

 

Exactly ! :smilielol5:

[Colleen in NS]

This turned out to be a very interesting conversation!

 

I am just curious: how many of you find yourself with the need to write an expository essay, in either work or home life? My gut feeling is that essay writing is confined to a relatively narrow band of careers.

 

My understanding of an expository essay is that it explains - it reports new info., explains how something works, shows how to do something, helps another person to understand something.

 

So, personally, I use expository writing skills all the time. To me, these skills are first thinking skills. I may not get these thoughts down on paper into a formal essay, but I use the skills when I post here, when I explain something to my kids (every day!), etc.. To me, the practice of putting down a formal essay is just practice in thinking something through. You can think in order to write an essay, and you can write an essay in order to learn to think clearly. Or you can think in order to talk to explain something to someone. So, yes, I use this all the time. And I sometimes write my expository thoughts down. I think that's why SWB emphasizes it so much. It's an excellent communication skill all around. So is persuasive writing.

 

Also, aren't some of the benefits of creative writing gained from creative play...?

 

I think so...my kids make up scenarios all the time to act out - they are constantly pretending something or other and putting on the dress up clothes, or making their little dolls or Lego figures or Ello figures act out something. They just don't put all that down on paper. But they work out who the characters are and what's going on, and where, and when...

 

I do believe that a good creative writing or art or drama or music teacher can teach the subject in an effort to develop the skills necessary for a child to express his/her creativity. I think often the mistake is expecting TOO MUCH of a child, BEFORE THE PROPER FOUNDATION is built.

 

Hmm...I hadn't really thought about this much before. I want to theorize for a minute. I think you're on to something.

 

- Creative writing needs a foundation of being able to put thoughts into words and words onto paper (as taught via narration and dictation).

 

- Creative dramatic dance needs a foundation of being able to move your body, form it into different shapes according to an idea, and to form other bodies together into shapes and moves that express an idea.

 

- Creative drawing needs a foundation of being able to see design elements and put them on paper.

 

- Creative painting needs a foundation of drawing skills plus being able to discern colour, tone, etc.

 

- Creative sculpting needs a foundation of drawing skills plus being able put something together three-dimensionally

 

- Creative music playing needs a foundation of music theory.

 

- Creative ballet dance needs a foundation of individual ballet moves.

 

- Creative play acting needs a foundation of using your voice, staging knowledge, and various other theatre techniques.

 

- Creative singing needs a foundation of learning to use the voice.

 

- Creative songwriting needs a foundation of music and maybe poetry knowledge.

 

- architecture, engineering, playing a musical instrument, healing the human body, arguing a court case, fixing someone's teeth, making store displays, etc.

 

What occurs to me is that all of these things are creative acts that, in order to have impact on others, do need some type of foundational skills. They also draw their material from life. And I also think that not everyone is drawn to every one of these acts of expression. Yet, in each one, there is a foundation of some type of skill, all of which require discipline and practice, don't they. Those skills, that discipline, all develop benefits in us - teach us to pay attention to life going on around us. We don't *have* to explore all of them, but I'd venture a guess that almost everyone is drawn to *something* creative. And that it's a matter of knowing what's out there and maybe trying something out if so inclined. Yes?

 

In my early 20s I was involved a lot in dramatic dance productions, skits, theatre, and singing (occasionally). I ADORED doing this stuff and did it for years. Never once did I have the desire to write stories or poems, though, and I still don't. I'm just not drawn to it, though I see the importance of knowing the foundation of those things (how stories are put together, how poems get their rhythm) - the foundations give me a language to use in talking about other books/poems/plays NOT written by me. But I'll expose my kids to as many creative avenues as I can, and if they are drawn to something, I'll encourage them along. With dd, it may be stories and poems, with ds it may be architecture. Heck, maybe I'll even get back into dramatic dance someday. For dh, it's songwriting on his guitar.

 

It isn't that SWB wouldn't ever have the same assignment. It is that she would probably develop the skills to be able to do the assignment first.

 

 

She's a creative writer, too.

[lovemykids]

So the moral to the story is that we should unschool creative writing? ;)

 

Rosie

 

Well, look here: SWB is actually an unschooling enthusiast when it comes to creative writing. Who’d a thought?

 

 

This turned out to be a very interesting conversation!

 

 

 

My understanding of an expository essay is that it explains - it reports new info., explains how something works, shows how to do something, helps another person to understand something.

 

So, personally, I use expository writing skills all the time. To me, these skills are first thinking skills. I may not get these thoughts down on paper into a formal essay, but I use the skills when I post here, when I explain something to my kids (every day!), etc.. To me, the practice of putting down a formal essay is just practice in thinking something through. You can think in order to write an essay, and you can write an essay in order to learn to think clearly. Or you can think in order to talk to explain something to someone. So, yes, I use this all the time. And I sometimes write my expository thoughts down. I think that's why SWB emphasizes it so much. It's an excellent communication skill all around. So is persuasive writing.

 

 

 

I think so...my kids make up scenarios all the time to act out - they are constantly pretending something or other and putting on the dress up clothes, or making their little dolls or Lego figures or Ello figures act out something. They just don't put all that down on paper. But they work out who the characters are and what's going on, and where, and when...

 

 

 

Hmm...I hadn't really thought about this much before. I want to theorize for a minute. I think you're on to something.

 

- Creative writing needs a foundation of being able to put thoughts into words and words onto paper (as taught via narration and dictation).

 

- Creative dramatic dance needs a foundation of being able to move your body, form it into different shapes according to an idea, and to form other bodies together into shapes and moves that express an idea.

 

- Creative drawing needs a foundation of being able to see design elements and put them on paper.

 

- Creative painting needs a foundation of drawing skills plus being able to discern colour, tone, etc.

 

- Creative sculpting needs a foundation of drawing skills plus being able put something together three-dimensionally

 

- Creative music playing needs a foundation of music theory.

 

- Creative ballet dance needs a foundation of individual ballet moves.

 

- Creative play acting needs a foundation of using your voice, staging knowledge, and various other theatre techniques.

 

- Creative singing needs a foundation of learning to use the voice.

 

- Creative songwriting needs a foundation of music and maybe poetry knowledge.

 

- architecture, engineering, playing a musical instrument, healing the human body, arguing a court case, fixing someone's teeth, making store displays, etc.

 

What occurs to me is that all of these things are creative acts that, in order to have impact on others, do need some type of foundational skills. They also draw their material from life. And I also think that not everyone is drawn to every one of these acts of expression. Yet, in each one, there is a foundation of some type of skill, all of which require discipline and practice, don't they. Those skills, that discipline, all develop benefits in us - teach us to pay attention to life going on around us. We don't *have* to explore all of them, but I'd venture a guess that almost everyone is drawn to *something* creative. And that it's a matter of knowing what's out there and maybe trying something out if so inclined. Yes?

 

In my early 20s I was involved a lot in dramatic dance productions, skits, theatre, and singing (occasionally). I ADORED doing this stuff and did it for years. Never once did I have the desire to write stories or poems, though, and I still don't. I'm just not drawn to it, though I see the importance of knowing the foundation of those things (how stories are put together, how poems get their rhythm) - the foundations give me a language to use in talking about other books/poems/plays NOT written by me. But I'll expose my kids to as many creative avenues as I can, and if they are drawn to something, I'll encourage them along. With dd, it may be stories and poems, with ds it may be architecture. Heck, maybe I'll even get back into dramatic dance someday. For dh, it's songwriting on his guitar.

 

 

 

She's a creative writer, too.

 

Hmmm, yes, BUT. So many of these “skills” come naturally to some, you really can’t say that every creative endeavor needs a foundation. It’s simply not true. There are such things as natural artists, musicians, actors, etc. With almost all of those you have mentioned, certain talented people are able to literally pull the creativity or talent out of the sky, it’s innate to them. I never taught my dd to draw, but yet she is a fabulous artist.

 

Some people have a gift. Can others learn that same gift with the proper foundation? Sure. But not everyone needs it when it comes to the arts. It can certainly improve certain people, but hey, there is something to be said for natural artistic ability.

 

(I also wanted to say that I do agree with your theory, in certain instances, or even in most cases, children need foundations that they can build upon.) :)

Edited February 27, 2010 by lovemykids

[lovemykids]

In my early 20s I was involved a lot in dramatic dance productions, skits, theatre, and singing (occasionally). I ADORED doing this stuff and did it for years. Never once did I have the desire to write stories or poems, though, and I still don't. I'm just not drawn to it, though I see the importance of knowing the foundation of those things (how stories are put together, how poems get their rhythm) - the foundations give me a language to use in talking about other books/poems/plays NOT written by me. But I'll expose my kids to as many creative avenues as I can, and if they are drawn to something, I'll encourage them along. With dd, it may be stories and poems, with ds it may be architecture. Heck, maybe I'll even get back into dramatic dance someday. For dh, it's songwriting on his guitar.

 

 

.

 

Colleen,

I used to really enjoy dance and theatre (theater, lol) when I was young as well.:tongue_smilie:

(I also loved to write prose and poetry.)

Edited February 27, 2010 by lovemykids
Don’t ask why I used the British spelling….who knows.

[Chris in VA]

Haven't listened to the MP3, but read the book--

Doesn't she say that foundation comes first (as a pp pointed out) and then creativity, or, expression, comes in rhetoric stage?

So, doesn't she advocate some creative expression in the form of non-fiction writing, in the rhetoric stage?

Or are we confining creativity to the fictional?

Ooo...confining creativity...

[Colleen in NS]

Hmmm, yes, BUT. So many of these “skills†come naturally to some, you really can’t say that every creative endeavor needs a foundation. It’s simply not true. There are such things as natural artists, musicians, actors, etc. With almost all of those you have mentioned, certain talented people are able to literally pull the creativity or talent out of the sky, it’s innate to them. I never taught my dd to draw, but yet she is a fabulous artist.

 

Some people have a gift. Can others learn that same gift with the proper foundation? Sure. But not everyone needs it when it comes to the arts. It can certainly improve certain people, but hey, there is something to be said for natural artistic ability.

 

(I also wanted to say that I do agree with your theory, in certain instances, or even in most cases, children need foundations that they can build upon.) :)

 

I thought of that while I was theorizing. My dh is a case in point. He's a VERY gifted guitar player, but is learning music theory right along with my kids in the low levels of Bastien piano. Well, he knows some absorbed theory from over his years of playing, but now he's learning it systematically. But he is one of those truly gifted and talented guitar players.

 

I think my point was not so much that to be creative you need skills - it was more that I was generalizing about the underlying skills for creativity in different areas, and questioning if we needed to teach every one of these skills (in light of "should we or shouldn't we force creative writing skills"), or can we let our kids gravitate towards what they like, and then teach the skills from there. Because all those skills are beneficial in other areas of life, so if they pick something, they will get beneficial skills even if they don't learn all of them in all those areas.

[kathkath]

I really like a lot of what SWB has to say about Classical education, however I wholeheartedly disagree with her statements about young children not needing to do creative writing or being equipped to do it. Reading, writing, speaking and thinking are all intertwined and mutually supportive. Growth in one area naturally feeds growth in the others.

 

The process of learning to write, be it narrative, expository, persuasive or other, causes the learner to pay more attention to text that is read. The working out of sounds by an emergent reader engaging in writing assists in phonetic understanding as it is applied to reading. The the process of writing a story helps cement a child's understanding of story grammar, which in turn aids reading comprehension. This is not just about self-expression. Consider how a baby learns to speak language by hearing it and making sounds. Consider how young children practice real life by pretending to be us. It is all connected. Just as an artist learns to be more observant in the process of learning art, a writer learns to read better in part by writing. These are just a few examples and it is late, but there is so much to be lost by not nurturing the writer in every young child and giving wings. No child should be forced, I agree. Much can be done to encourage, equip, and spark though.

[Janice in NJ]

Of course I can't be sure and tell you what SWB meant. I'm not her.

 

Academic writing can be taught. And it should be taught. When I was in school I was given the impression that some people can write and some can't. Those of us in the "can't" category were left to struggle along as best we could. Bah! Hum-bug! I struggle with my oldest. We work hard! It's been a long, long road. And YES! I would have done some things differently if I had it to do over again. But the boy is still learning to write academically. He is still learning the conventions that he will need to follow to write in college and in life. Period.

 

And he has picked up some creative tools along the way. From his reading. He loves to read car magazines. And he loves to write in that style. Loves it. I suspect that some Dickens and Hawthorne and ___ has crept in around the edges. But he primarily writes in Hot Rod Magazine style if left to his own devices.

 

My daughter is learning to imitate the authors that she reads; she is a bit more open to suggestions so we study Dickens and Hawthorne and ____. We talk about what they are doing and why we think that it works. Or doesn't. But I focus on academic writing in our face-time. Academic writing lends itself more easily to instruction. And she will need the skills in order to function as an adult.

 

If she wants to write creatively, I agree with what I believe SWB has told me for years: expose her to good authors. Their models will do the most for her creative talents in her teen-years. If she wants to write creatively, encourage her to get on the web, find opportunities to write, and then share her work. There are tons of would-be writers out there. And plenty of respectable places where they share and comment about each others work. The best thing for a creative writer is to share her work and get feedback. The web makes that incredibly easy. Peer review. Contests. Publication opportunities. Rejection. Plenty of options. There is no need to fret over the subject directly. A bit of instruction tied to a little bit of momma research = an opportunity. Try it and see if the child really wants to do it. Is she driven or relaxed about it? A child who is driven will persevere; she will take the ball and RUN with it. And she will learn to pick things up on her own. A child who isn't will learn that she doesn't want to write for a living; she wants to write creatively for her own self-satisfaction. And that's a valuable lesson.

 

And the academic writing lessons continue.

Everyone needs basic proficiency in academic writing.

 

That's the way I understand it. Makes sense to me.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[keptwoman]

Yes, few of us will produce works of creative writing in our professions, but does that mean our work won't benefit from the skills and enlarged perspective that comes from a foray into the world of creative writing? Creative writing gives the student an opportunity to use that expansive vocabulary he/she has developed and it hones the use of literary devices that bring a subtle enhancement to academic writing. Creative writing can foster creative thinking, and that's something that can benefit every profession.

 

Yes, I'm not sure that I'd ever expect my kids to do enormous amounts of finished creative writing. But currently we are doing a Writers Club where we are learning some of the tools of creative writing and I can see the application they will have to more formal or functional writing. Currently I am making my boys write creatively, for one it comes naturally, for the other it doesn't, but both are producing some great work which would not be possible without some formal work on the mechanics of creative writing.

 

I very strongly agree with not forcing it at an early age, both boys went to school and I still have their ridiculous books full of "In the weekend we went swimming, it was fun" :001_huh: Mechanics come first, but I do think there is a place for some teaching in how to write creatively as they get older.