Books about Christian mythology for non-Christians?

[MelanieM]

So I think we've established that my perceived offense here is that my choice of wording in my OP suggests that the stories of Christianity are no better/more worthy (or worse/less worthy) than the sacred stories of other cultures from around the world. I find it unfortunate that people would be offended by such a thing, but feel solid in my stance that this perceived belief (which I do actually hold to be true) is not in and of itself, offensive.

 

In other words, as Saille so beautifully put earlier in the thread: the fact that you are offended does not prove that something is offensive.

[lionfamily1999]

Not disagreeing here, but I would like to point out that neo-pagans should not always be put into the same category as atheists. I know you haven't said so in this paragraph, but I get the feeling around here that not everyone understands that.

 

 

 

Not necessarily :) Not all neo-pagans are re-enacting or reviving or feel they are continuing ancient practices. Plenty of neo-pagans do what they do without any reference at all to any old Norse, ancient Greek, Roman, Celtic traditions. Just so you know ;) And if they do, they feel just as strongly about it as anyone else does about their spiritual practices.

 

 

 

Don't think anyone is arguing that people have no right to be offended. I think they are arguing against people such as Person B slamming Person A for slamming them. Person B could have said "Please be careful using that phrase, many people will find it offensive. You might have better luck if you phrase your questions <this way.>" It seems to be the "pot calling the kettle black" thing that's bothering people most.

 

 

My real answer: I think you should stand up for Christianity when you are certain someone is making unreasonable, immature or unsubstantiated criticisms and you think some explanation will help. (If you don't think it will help, it's hitting your head against a brick wall.) I think there are times where verbally hitting them over the head with a brick is going to be justified, but it's best not to do that if something milder would do. If your child drops a glass you say "Oops, we need to clean that up. Please be more careful next time." If you *know* they've thrown the glass deliberately, whatever we say is going to be in CAPS ;)

 

 

Rosie

I never meant to infer that pagans et al were athiests, not at all. I see worlds (and gods) of difference between the two. Geesh, that wasn't even on my radar! I'm sorry it came across that way.

 

I agree with most everything else you've written (had to delete some for the sake of space). I do think it could've all been done better, it just seemed to me that some were getting upset that anyone felt offense at all. I could've been wrong ;) If I was mea culpa!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I remember back in 1976 sitting in Fr. Fraser's World Religions class and him teaching what myth is. Myth is most profound, deep truth. Myths form people, their conscience. Myths form cultures. I have never believed the OT to historical fact but to be a collection of very sacred stories that teach a profound truth. That is what my children have been taught. I don't know what other word to use to describe them. I can't call them fables. I think legend would be offensive, too. Folktales? Yet they're not just a 'fiction story'. They are much more important than that. 'Bible stories' even seems to lessen their importance. That's why I choose the word myth based on what I was taught.

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I was taught and have read much the same on the word mythology;) I see the word mythology as a compliment in that it does speak to deep, universal, sacred, and profound truths so to speak:)

 

P.S. Did we go to the same prep school?;)

 

My 2 cents:)

Edited February 5, 2010 by priscilla
clarify

[Rosie_0801]

What about respect for wiccans, pagans or atheists, etc.? Why don't these and others get the respect?

 

We generally do, and we generally give it.

 

There is not an "all or nothing" thing going on here.

 

I never meant to infer that pagans et al were athiests, not at all. I see worlds (and gods) of difference between the two. Geesh, that wasn't even on my radar! I'm sorry it came across that way.

 

Argh! I know you didn't and even said that in the part of my post you bolded! You just provided what seemed a good teaching moment to me ;)

 

Rosie

[lionfamily1999]

 

Argh! I know you didn't and even said that in the part of my post you bolded! You just provided what seemed a good teaching moment to me ;)

 

Rosie

Lol, it bothers me that it could even be possibly seen in my post, iykwIm... I knew what you meant and that you weren't calling me out or anything, but still felt it was worth an aghast apology :lol:

[Guest Cindie2dds]

 

There is not an "all or nothing" thing going on here.

 

Rosie

 

I truly hope so. I'm glad you feel that way. :)

[Julie in MN]

Ok, maybe this is a better question (i.e. one that will receive an answer!)... If you are offended by the word mythology as applied to your beliefs, do you intend to stop using it to refer to all other religious beliefs? If not, why?

 

Melanie, is this to me again? If so, I think I've answered it, um, three times? I doubt my answer will be any more helpful than the other 3 times, but here goes:

 

would not start a post referring to, for instance, Muslim mythology. I would feel it clearly rude, despite the word origins. I think someone might even object! But I do enjoy word discussions...

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about Muslim mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere. In my mind, it would have too great a chance of coming off as offensive. I would fully expect at least some folks to object. That just seems so obvious to me, but I must think differently than most folks.

 

The reason I have stated is that I personally would NEVER post a title like yours

 

And Melanie, about this one:

 

Honestly, if the answer is as Tara says, and I'm to use the word to describe one set of beliefs but not others as a way to suggest that a particular set of beliefs is more important or relevant, then I'll have to decline on the basis that it goes against the core of my belief system. It would be like me asking Christians to start believing, and acting as if they believe, that all Gods are equal. Can you all not see that? Why is it so hard to understand that asking a non-Christian to use words that imply Christianity is more "real" than other religious beliefs is unacceptable?

 

I think Tara is speaking against me, not for me. She does have quite a few things to say about me:

 

Something (could it be expereince?) tells me that most Christians don't care that they are casting aspersions at other faiths, but when someone dares to inadvertently do it to Christianity, watch out!!

 

It's like all the white people who simply don't/don't want to see institutional racism.

 

Apparently if it's an offensive Christian term it's fine but if it's an offensive all-purpose term it's not?

Tara

 

Because people think that Christianity should be afforded more respect than other religious beliefs, but nobody actually wants to come right out and say it.

Tara

 

I did post a frustrated, snarky comment about Tara, so I suppose I should apologize if she in any way was offended by it. But do you at least agree that she was fishing for it? I don't know what to say except that I have never done any of the things Tara is accusing me of, I have been a co-founder of a task force on inclusiveness some 15 years back, and I can only restate what I've already said:

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about [for example] Muslim mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere.

 

And I think I've said at least twice that you don't have to agree with me. If you never heard me say that you don't have to agree with me, I can keep digging for more quotes, but this is a long thread to dig thru... So I'll just say it here: I do NOT believe that you must agree with me (on anything).

 

Julie in MN

[Rosie_0801]

Lol, it bothers me that it could even be possibly seen in my post, iykwIm... I knew what you meant and that you weren't calling me out or anything, but still felt it was worth an aghast apology :lol:

 

If someone has to don a safety helmet and actually tunnel into your comments to find offense, it sure isn't your fault and you owe no apologies!!

 

Rosie

[lionfamily1999]

If someone has to don a safety helmet and actually tunnel into your comments to find offense, it sure isn't your fault and you owe no apologies!!

 

Rosie

Okay, I feel better now :p

[happygrrl]

Isn't it time for you to make a field trip starting at Powell's?

 

It's always time for Powells! :001_smile:

[KarenNC]

Okay... I will say it. The history written in the Bible should be afforded more respect than any other religious beliefs. Why? Because it is the truth pertaining to mankind, our existence, our history, our reason for being, our reason for suffering. It is based on what the Almighty, the Creator, He Who Causes to Become, Jehovah, Yahweh has chosen to share with his creation. The others simply are not.

 

*You* (and other Christians, so treat this as the general "you";)) should give Christianity more respect than other religious beliefs because you accept the premise that what is written in the Scriptures and the other teachings of your faith is authoritative and binding for you. I do not accept that premise, so it is not incumbent upon me to give it more respect than any other religious belief that is not my own. It is incumbent upon *me* to give and show more respect for the tenets of *my* religion because those are the tenets that I believe are binding for me. The fact that *you* believe the tenets of *your* religion are binding for *me* because *your* religion says so is, to put it bluntly, irrelevant, as you would consider the reverse to be (if I were to claim such).

 

I understand that you do not accept the premises of my faith as authoritative and binding upon you. I do not expect that you will show my religion more respect than your own (or equal to it), nor should you (or anyone of any other religion) realistically expect that I would show more (or even equal) respect for your religion in relation to my own. However, I think we can agree that there is a general minimum level of respect that is reasonable between people.

 

Respect does not mean that you have to think it's true (or True) or agree that you are bound by its dictates. True respect (not just bare tolerance) can be requested and earned, but not demanded. I strive to show respect for Christianity, for example, by not denigrating it or its deity (either in public or private regardless of whether I think Christians are listening) and by trying to remember to use the written conventions of respect that Christians use for their religion, their sacred texts, and their deity when discussing them--by treating them as proper nouns when appropriate and capitalizing. I strive to show respect by seeking out accurate information on their beliefs and practices and teaching my child about those. I also strive to respect Christians by being willing to enter into respectful discussion about the differences and similarities between our two worldviews (and you---the specific "you" ;)--and I have had some very good ones, thanks). It's lovely to have those of other religions give some of that same basic respect back.

[KarenNC]

I remember back in 1976 sitting in Fr. Fraser's World Religions class and him teaching what myth is. Myth is most profound, deep truth. Myths form people, their conscience. Myths form cultures. I have never believed the OT to historical fact but to be a collection of very sacred stories that teach a profound truth. That is what my children have been taught. I don't know what other word to use to describe them. I can't call them fables. I think legend would be offensive, too. Folktales? Yet they're not just a 'fiction story'. They are much more important than that. 'Bible stories' even seems to lessen their importance. That's why I choose the word myth based on what I was taught.

 

Well, here's a quote that I found interesting---

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=myth&searchmode=none

 

myth

1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

 

Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale. Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud, "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

 

General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

[Audrey]

In my mind, it is not acceptable for Christian history from the Inspired Word of God to be lumped in with myths that pertain to falsehoods.

 

There you go... have I confirmed what is happening here?

 

 

 

Well that's fine, Carmen, but that is what YOU believe, and it NOT what everyone believes. *I* believe you are completely wrong and there is no such God as you claim. That, however, isn't the point of the continued argument here. The point is, that some people who believe as you do are insisting that everyone who doesn't believe as they do must bow down and use language that, in essence, forces a pretending (on the part of the non-Christian) that your truth is the only truth. But, those same people demanding that wouldn't do that for any other religion represented on this board. As Saille keeps saying... they are asking for special consideration that they aren't willing to afford to others.

 

That's really the problem as far as I see it.

 

Let's face it. You are not going to pretend to believe anything different than you do when you are talking to me or anyone else here. Why should anyone have to do that -- christian or non-christian -- and why should anyone get their panties in such a wad just because someone else doesn't believe what they believe?

[Lovedtodeath]

I've never been able to wrap my mind around it either. To me it's egocentric, not to believe that way, but to demand and expect others to treat your belief in a superior way.

oh, nevermind I thought you were calling me egocentric.:tongue_smilie: Carry on.

[Haiku]

She does have quite a few things to say about me:

 

 

Get over yourself. Never once did I say a single thing about you. I never singled you out, and I wasn't even thinking about you. I didn't "accuse" you of anything. I made it quite clear that I was posting about my experiences of nearly 40 years as a non-Christian in this country.

 

Tara

[Rosie_0801]

Well that's fine, Carmen, but that is what YOU believe, and it NOT what everyone believes.

 

In my experience in conversing with Carmen on religious matters, she knows this and doesn't expect anyone to place higher value on her religion than theirs.

 

I'd have thought everyone would understand by now that some people think there is only one right and true path, that others don't think that, and have a pretty good idea on which religions fit into which categories by now. There really isn't any reason to, as Audrey said, get one's panties in a wad. Why can't we all accept this pretty simple issue as being part of people's world views? I know quite well that the Christians here and elsewhere know I'm going to hell. I know quite well I'm not because there is no such place. Does this cause conflict? No it doesn't and there is no need for it. I assume there are people around here who think I am evil or at least very naughty and they wouldn't let their children associate with me or mine, because I'm not Christian, but that doesn't matter either because I know I'm not evil or especially naughty, and their belief that I am doesn't mean they are attributing every imaginable negative trait to me, or that they are attributing every known positive trait to themselves. And, for all that, I've even been thanked for my participation in Christian flavoured threads by people who know I'm not. So there is proof we can all get along nicely despite our differences.

 

 

Rosie

[Julie in MN]

Get over yourself. Never once did I say a single thing about you. I never singled you out, and I wasn't even thinking about you. I didn't "accuse" you of anything. I made it quite clear that I was posting about my experiences of nearly 40 years as a non-Christian in this country.

 

Tara

 

Well, hmmm, maybe I'm over-generalizing you in the way you're overgeneralizing Christians? I'm not sure how to understand what you are saying. Your statements are generalizations about Christians, on a thread that is over 32 pages long simply because I said that the OP was offensive to me as a Christian -- but your statements don't apply to me? (Except the "get over yourself" one, I suppose.)

 

Okay. Good.

Julie

[Miss Sherry]

*You* (and other Christians, so treat this as the general "you";)) should give Christianity more respect than other religious beliefs because you accept the premise that what is written in the Scriptures and the other teachings of your faith is authoritative and binding for you. I do not accept that premise, so it is not incumbent upon me to give it more respect than any other religious belief that is not my own. It is incumbent upon *me* to give and show more respect for the tenets of *my* religion because those are the tenets that I believe are binding for me. The fact that *you* believe the tenets of *your* religion are binding for *me* because *your* religion says so is, to put it bluntly, irrelevant, as you would consider the reverse to be (if I were to claim such).

 

I understand that you do not accept the premises of my faith as authoritative and binding upon you. I do not expect that you will show my religion more respect than your own (or equal to it), nor should you (or anyone of any other religion) realistically expect that I would show more (or even equal) respect for your religion in relation to my own. However, I think we can agree that there is a general minimum level of respect that is reasonable between people.

 

Respect does not mean that you have to think it's true (or True) or agree that you are bound by its dictates. True respect (not just bare tolerance) can be requested and earned, but not demanded. I strive to show respect for Christianity, for example, by not denigrating it or its deity (either in public or private regardless of whether I think Christians are listening) and by trying to remember to use the written conventions of respect that Christians use for their religion, their sacred texts, and their deity when discussing them--by treating them as proper nouns when appropriate and capitalizing. I strive to show respect by seeking out accurate information on their beliefs and practices and teaching my child about those. I also strive to respect Christians by being willing to enter into respectful discussion about the differences and similarities between our two worldviews (and you---the specific "you" ;)--and I have had some very good ones, thanks). It's lovely to have those of other religions give some of that same basic respect back.

I appreciate your post. I do think the original poster was a little naive to word things the way she did and I find it hard to believe that if she has been on here long at all that she wouldn't know that would be interpreted as being disrespectful by Christians, but I do not think that ONLY Christianity and Christians should be treated with respect, as I see you also think that everyone and their beliefs should be respected.But of course you have more respect for what you believe to be true.You made some very interesting comments in your post. The original poster can say all she wants that Christianity is a myth , I won't like it, but she can still say it.But I won't complain to her beyond the comments I've already made.There's no point in doing so. LOL .

 

My children have had the opportunity to have friends from families of a few religions different from ours. My ds has a very close friend that is like a brother to him who is Muslim. His Muslim friend, in a moment of anger, once said to my son that the world would be a better place if there were no Christians in it. His friend was lashing out due to jealousy because my son was playing basketball with other boys besides his Muslim friend and also anger that my son had called him "shorty".They were all about 11 or 12 years old if my memory serves me right. I gave my son and his friend a firm talking too that if they were going to continue to be friends they needed to respect each another. I told my son he needed to stop making comments to his friend in reference to his height and I told his friend not to make disrespectful comments in regards to our religion. His friend came to our house soon after that but I told him until they apologized to each other and set up some rules in regards to how they would treat each other they wouldn't be spending time together. They did that and have been friends since then but there have been some rocky times in their friendship over the years.That friendship could have easily just been blown apart that day, but with some coaching they were each able to learn a lesson in respect. That was the last time I coached the two of them on their friendship. I do think that young people need to be taught to show respect to others and see it modeled by their parents. My ds is 21 years old now.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[Greta]

What I'm saying is that believing without compromise is not the same as demanding without compromise that everyone acknowledge my faith as superior.

 

I've only quoted a small part of it, but I wanted to thank you for your entire lovely, thoughtful post. It helps me a lot to hear how you have thought through these questions. :grouphug:

[Haiku]

Your statements are generalizations about Christians, on a thread that is over 32 pages long simply because I said that the OP was offensive to me as a Christian -- but your statements don't apply to me?

 

Who's fishing now? If what I said doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you. It doesn't changed the fact that I have been discriminated against pretty much my entire life because I am not Christian. Jewish people have never discriminated against me because I am not Jewish. Muslims have never discriminated against me because I am not Muslim. Pagans have never discriminated against me because I am not Pagan. It's been Christians who have refused to be my friend, refused to hire me to babysit their kids, and told me (repeatedly) that I am going to go to hell because I don't worship their god. When I see a spade, I'll call it a spade. If you aren't a spade, you have nothing to worry about.

 

Tara

[Julie in MN]

Who's fishing now? If what I said doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you. It doesn't changed the fact that I have been discriminated against pretty much my entire life because I am not Christian. Jewish people have never discriminated against me because I am not Jewish. Muslims have never discriminated against me because I am not Muslim. Pagans have never discriminated against me because I am not Pagan. It's been Christians who have refused to be my friend, refused to hire me to babysit their kids, and told me (repeatedly) that I am going to go to hell because I don't worship their god. When I see a spade, I'll call it a spade. If you aren't a spade, you have nothing to worry about.

 

Tara

 

Well I don't think I'm fishing, because I'm replying to someone speaking to me directly. But <sigh> I don't know whether you want me to reply or not here.

 

I am truly sorry you have been discriminated against, Tara. I am not able to analyze the numbers you are quoting. I imagine you don't live in Minnesota, where I find myself as someone who has spent a lifetime championing the rights of others, and now I have no rights of my own. Yet my experience being discriminated against by non-Christian Minnesotans does not seem relevant (except in discussing your post above).

 

If you are truly not saying anything against me or anyone on this thread, then why would you throw in random statements like this?

"Because people think that Christianity should be afforded more respect than other religious beliefs, but nobody actually wants to come right out and say it."

 

Many people chimed in that they liked your statement, which was made shortly after one of my posts. Who is the nobody?

Julie

[Mom-ninja.]

What I'm saying is that believing without compromise is not the same as demanding without compromise that everyone acknowledge my faith as superior.

 

I believe the Christian faith is superior. And the Muslim to my left believes his faith is superior. And the Pagan to my right believes her faith is superior. We all have the freedom to choose what we'll believe. Are my words and actions such that those around me might be attracted to my faith or disgusted by my faith? Some days it might depend on how much coffee I've had to drink. :tongue_smilie: I'm sure I've done my part in giving Christianity a bad name. Never intentionally, of course, but we all have our moments. I have soooooo not "arrived". It is my responsibility, as long as I'm still human, to examine my words and actions and to walk circumspectly. And to keep trying.

 

Wonderful post! You're my kind of Christian. :D

[Carrie12345]

- athiestic - 2% of the world - those I've known and those I've read about in history have been very offended by anything Christian but I haven't seen offense taken to other religious histories/beliefs, so it seems more of a prejudice than a true offense taken

 

 

According to the census bureau, more than 10% of the US population claims "no religion" (not counting those who refused to answer the question). According to adherents.com, 16% of the world claims "nonreligious" (half theist, half non-).

 

"Offended by anything Christian" is an interesting statement. Those I've known are very specific about what offends them, and it's far from "anything".

[Haiku]

Many people chimed in that they liked your statement, which was made shortly after one of my posts. Who is the nobody?

 

 

I was the first one to say it. "Nobody" before me did. And I think that the people who liked what I said were all non-Christian.

 

I want to clarify that I am not anti-Christian. The friend I have had the second-longest in my life (I met her when I was seven) has been a committed Christian her whole life. The family that supported us the most through our adoptions (even when people in our own families were against them) are evangelical Christians. But I am still wary of Christians as a whole, at least ones I don't know, because I don't know which side of the fence they will be on: the "I don't care what religion you are" side or the "If you aren't Christian I have no use for you" side. My Christian friends know that I feel this way. Instead of taking offense at my feelings, they understand that it is my life experiences that have shaped those feelings, and they feel sorry that there are Christians who represent their faith in such a way. I'm sure that it's hard for you to understand where I am coming from, as you don't know me and we have never had long talks together about these things.

 

You probably don't like my feelings about being wary of Christians. You probably feel they are unfair. I can get that. I used to be angered by the fact that some people of color are wary of white people (including me). It was unfair. I am not racist; why should they be wary of me? Now I have black kids. I see what they go through. I understand better. I have gotten the connection between my feelings about Christians and their feelings about white people. It's not me personally that people are wary of. It's what I represent and what their experiences have taught them. I am not wary of Christians personally. I am wary of the worst representations of their faith.

 

I never stated that every single Christian represents any of what I said. When I said, "Because people think that Christianity should be afforded more respect than other religious beliefs," I didn't mean "people" to mean "all people" or "all Christians." I don't think anyone could deny, however, that there are Christians who want that.

 

I am sorry if we are having a failure to communicate. I am sorry if what I have said has hurt you personally. I'm doing the best I can to explain where I am coming from. I have posted in frustration in this thread and probably not with the largest amounts of grace. I do hope that this post has helped you understand better where I am coming from.

 

Tara

[MelanieM]

In my experience in conversing with Carmen on religious matters, she knows this and doesn't expect anyone to place higher value on her religion than theirs.

 

 

Rosie, I think Carmen was actually saying that she *does* expect people to place a higher value on her religion than others. That was the question she was answering, in the affirmative, with her post.

 

FWIW, I quite like what I know of Carmen, and am not even a little bit bothered by her posts on this thread. In fact, I think she has some guts and integrity to come here and call it as she sees it. I much prefer that to the idea that some seem to have that it's better to say one thing at home, and another where others might hear you and be upset by it.

 

(Btw, I really like your posts too! Thanks for chiming in. ;))

 

Melanie, is this to me again? If so, I think I've answered it, um, three times? I doubt my answer will be any more helpful than the other 3 times, but here goes:

 

 

Julie, my question wasn't posed directly to you, but you are certainly welcome to respond! However, the point I was attempting to make was that the standard doesn't seem to apply to *all* religions. As I've stated earlier, I don't believe respect should be doled out based on numbers. There are people posting here who believe differently than those major religions and people seem to have no issue with calling their beliefs mythology, so my question was why is it ok for some and not all? (Again, in my word mythology is not a dirty word to begin with. But if it is to you, then I would assume you would see it as an insult to others who believe in what you call myths.)

[Storm Bay]

What about respect for wiccans, pagans or atheists, etc.? Why don't these and others get the respect? To me everything other than Christianity is a myth; not so for others, hence the respect from both sides is warranted on an inclusive board. :)

 

 

Exactly, which is why I named 4 as examples of religions I do not adhere to and that are not Christian (and I was careful to include at least 2 that didn't share obvious roots,) and said "ETC" which, of course, means "and the rest." My first post said that because this is an open board this was inflammatory, not because people aren't entitled to their beliefs. This is not to say that there aren't other inflammatory posts, of course.

[Lovedtodeath]

:D Thanks, Rosie. I'm just afraid of being the know-it-all newbie I guess.

Oh, I have never done that! :lol:

 

As an aside, I have often told my husband that I wish we lived in a place where our religion was dominant. This thread has changed my mind. I don't want to be told what to think, and I don't want to live in a place where I am expected to hold to the party line. I discuss my spiritual ideas with my spiritual teacher and from there I make my decisions about what to believe. I would not want to live in a place where someone else officially proscribes what my beliefs should be to be considered valid.

 

Tara

I can totally relate to this.

 

I think it is appropriate to correct a misunderstanding someone might have about the Christian faith.

Great post!

 

I also strive to respect Christians by being willing to enter into respectful discussion about the differences and similarities between our two worldviews (and you---the specific "you" ;)--and I have had some very good ones, thanks). It's lovely to have those of other religions give some of that same basic respect back.

Oh, whew! Thanks for pointing that out. With so many quoting me, it makes me feel rather attacked at first.

[Greta]

Rosie, I think Carmen was actually saying that she *does* expect people to place a higher value on her religion than others. That was the question she was answering, in the affirmative, with her post.

 

I hope Carmen will see this and clarify. That wasn't the way I interpreted her response. I thought she meant that she was standing up to say "yes, I believe my truth is absolute, whether anyone else realizes it or not." Which, of course, is different from saying "I expect everyone else to realize it"!

 

FWIW, I quite like what I know of Carmen, and am not even a little bit bothered by her posts on this thread. In fact, I think she has some guts and integrity to come here and call it as she sees it. I much prefer that to the idea that some seem to have that it's better to say one thing at home, and another where others might hear you and be upset by it.

 

Hear, hear!

[MelanieM]

Exactly, which is why I named 4 as examples of religions I do not adhere to and that are not Christian (and I was careful to include at least 2 that didn't share obvious roots,) and said "ETC" which, of course, means "and the rest." My first post said that because this is an open board this was inflammatory, not because people aren't entitled to their beliefs. This is not to say that there aren't other inflammatory posts, of course.

 

Karin, if using myth to apply to any religious beliefs is inflammatory, could you please explain why the terms Greek mythology and Norse mythology are not considered inflammatory? We do have people here on this board that worship Greek and Norse Gods, and those terms are used quite regularly here.

[Saille]

I think Tara is speaking against me, not for me. She does have quite a few things to say about me

 

Julie,

 

I keep speaking directly TO you, and have yet to get one single response.

 

Oh, and ladies? Every. single. time. someone spells my username correctly, I thrill. Thank you!

[Greta]

Oh, I have never done that! :lol:

 

 

When I first started homeschooling, I "knew" much more about the topic than I do now! :D

[Haiku]

 

Oh, and ladies? Every. single. time. someone spells my username correctly, I thrill. Thank you!

 

I get all giggly when people pronounce my name correctly. It's TAR-ah, not TARE-uh.

 

Tara

[Saille]

Okay... I will say it. The history written in the Bible should be afforded more respect than any other religious beliefs. Why? Because it is the truth pertaining to mankind, our existence, our history, our reason for being, our reason for suffering. It is based on what the Almighty, the Creator, He Who Causes to Become, Jehovah, Yahweh has chosen to share with his creation. The others simply are not.

 

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

 

Should we demand respect? If we are imitators of our God will we demand respect? Did Jesus demand respect? That is something for all of us to think about.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and draw a line here between respect and obeisance.

[MelanieM]

I hope Carmen will see this and clarify. That wasn't the way I interpreted her response. I thought she meant that she was standing up to say "yes, I believe my truth is absolute, whether anyone else realizes it or not." Which, of course, is different from saying "I expect everyone else to realize it"!

 

 

I don't believe that she said (or thinks) she expects that everyone will *realize* her truth as their own. But the question posed was if any Christians here expected a different standard applied to their beliefs, and that was the question I understood Carmen to be answering. She explicitely said that Christianity should be afforded more respect than other religions, and I didn't take that to mean "by other Christians".

Edited February 6, 2010 by MelanieM

[Greta]

I get all giggly when people pronounce my name correctly. It's TAR-ah, not TARE-uh.

 

Tara

 

Well, you've never heard me speak it of course, but I am now proud to say that's the way I was hearing it in my head! :D I was Buddhist before I became Christian, and Tara was my daughter's favorite Buddha. Tara still holds a special place in my heart.

[Lovedtodeath]

QUOTE=Cindie2dds;1477483]What about respect for wiccans, pagans or atheists, etc.? Why don't these and others get the respect?

We generally do, and we generally give it.

 

Aw, Rosie, I love it! You hit the nail right on the head.

 

Well that's fine, Carmen, but that is what YOU believe, and it NOT what everyone believes. *I* believe you are completely wrong and there is no such God as you claim. That, however, isn't the point of the continued argument here. The point is, that some people who believe as you do are insisting that everyone who doesn't believe as they do must bow down and use language that, in essence, forces a pretending (on the part of the non-Christian) that your truth is the only truth. But, those same people demanding that wouldn't do that for any other religion represented on this board. As Saille keeps saying... they are asking for special consideration that they aren't willing to afford to others.

 

That's really the problem as far as I see it.

 

Let's face it. You are not going to pretend to believe anything different than you do when you are talking to me or anyone else here. Why should anyone have to do that -- christian or non-christian -- and why should anyone get their panties in such a wad just because someone else doesn't believe what they believe?

I think this was a very well worded post and the bolded part was right on.

 

In my experience in conversing with Carmen... Rosie

Rosie, thank you. You know I believe you are very naughty. ;) :lol: Oh, and Audrey is too... lets be clear.:tongue_smilie:

 

What I'm saying is that believing without compromise is not the same as demanding without compromise that everyone acknowledge my faith as superior.

Very nicely worded. I actually lost this in the plethora of words in your post.

 

When I first started homeschooling, I "knew" much more about the topic than I do now! :D

So did I! I responded to many more threads asking for curriculum suggestions too. Amazing isn't it, how much less we know when we have actually used some of the suggestions with our living, breathing children?

[Lovedtodeath]

I hope Carmen will see this and clarify. That wasn't the way I interpreted her response. I thought she meant that she was standing up to say "yes, I believe my truth is absolute, whether anyone else realizes it or not." Which, of course, is different from saying "I expect everyone else to realize it"!

Whoops. I didn't see it.

 

Rosie, I think Carmen was actually saying that she *does* expect people to place a higher value on her religion than others. That was the question she was answering, in the affirmative, with her post.

GretaLynne worded it perfectly. It is different from saying, "I expect everyone else to realize it." Yes, my religion deserves more respect. Do I think that you deserve less respect because you believe my religion to be no different than any other? No.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and draw a line here between respect and obeisance.

Okay, so it is a tough question but.... My thought was that Jesus did not go around demanding respect. ;) As his follower and as imitator of my Heavenly Father, of whom Jesus was a perfect representation I strive to follow his example.

[Storm Bay]

Karin, if using myth to apply to any religious beliefs is inflammatory, could you please explain why the terms Greek mythology and Norse mythology are not considered inflammatory? We do have people here on this board that worship Greek and Norse Gods, and those terms are used quite regularly here.

 

 

It's a cultural bias that dates before political correctness. I am directly descended from the man responsible for preserving the Norse religion (via one of his daughters at least, and probably more than once--I ought to check with my cousin who researches genealogy because he's fleshed out the family tree even more since the copy I have, which goes back over 1000 years) although I don't adhere to it myself (and, yes, we have a family tree that goes that far back because I'm half Icelandic.) My point was that it's inflammatory to call other people's religious or nonreligious beliefs mythology in an open forum the way it's used in our society on an open board, NOT that one has to accept or agree with all religions. Not to have one opinion at home and another in public, but because this forum is about homeschooling & when looking for homeschooling materials wording can make a huge impact. There are plenty of Bible story books that give no teaching or statement on whether or not these are true.

 

To be fair, IRL I don't pretend to be politically correct, but I do strive to be respectful. I don't think every belief is okay, and some are particularly cruel and wrong (eg I know of a woman whose daughter and majority of grandchildren by that daughter were killed by the leader of their particular religious group that was part of a ritual, and there is no way I respect that belief.) My family is loaded with atheists & agnostics who definitely view my beliefs as myths, but we agree to disagree, and we don't call each others' beliefs myths, fables, etc.

 

And I agree with Greta Lynne that it's not okay to say one thing at home and another in public. My dc are taught to be polite & respectful even if we don't agree with others. I'm not asking everyone to agree on what they think is a myth, nor on what they think is true or even if they think truth exists or even if we think they're right or wrong. I've been in plenty of discussions on the forums where I've enjoyed discussion hot topics and reading different arguments and have learned things even if I strongly disagree. But some areas are better left alone. I happened to see this post title. I don't come on the forum every day and go on the General Forum only occasionally now because it was taking far too much time out of my life.

[Julie in MN]

According to the census bureau, more than 10% of the US population claims "no religion" (not counting those who refused to answer the question). According to adherents.com, 16% of the world claims "nonreligious" (half theist, half non-).

 

"Offended by anything Christian" is an interesting statement. Those I've known are very specific about what offends them, and it's far from "anything".

 

 

 

As far as the number (2%), I said "world" not US. And I listed agnostic separately from atheists. I googled & clicked on at least 3 websites in order to average them out. I'm aware that statistics will differ for many reasons and are inherently inaccurate.

 

As far as my own comments, I only described those I have known or read about. My experience does include knowing and working with many religions, especially folks from India, China, and Somalia. However, my experience only includes a very few true atheists (again, this doesn't include agnostics), and those I have known (or read about in biographies) do seem very definitely critical of Christians mentioning anything about their Christianity but are okay hearing all about the beliefs and feelings of the other groups.

 

I feel that is a fairly factual statement of my experience.

 

Would your experience be that atheists are offended by things from all religions (or no religions) equally, and are not specifically biased against Christians? If so, that would negate my own experience, which I admit is not large. It would either support my overall point that nothing I'd said would be considered offensive (if you felt they were generally "not" offended by any religions) or negate my point (if you felt they were generally offended by all religious assertions).

 

Or, maybe you saying that in your experience, it's not "everything" Christian but only "specific items" about Christians that offend atheists? If so, I'm not sure it would really change my statement that the Hindis, Muslims, and others I know do not seem offended by my discussing Christianity as if it's fact, and vice versa, but yes, the atheists I know of do seem offended (by at least certain things), however, it would more accurately be classified as a prejudice or bias against one specific group.

 

Julie

[Rosie_0801]

Rosie, thank you. You know I believe you are very naughty. Oh, and Audrey is too... lets be clear.:tongue_smilie:

 

That Audrey... :blink:

Lick a witch? If I read her sig line too many times a day I think I'd develop a twitch!

;)

 

Oh, and Lovedtodeath, man she has an, ahem, *interesting* world view.

 

:eek: Oops! I forgot who I was talking to! :smilielol5:

 

 

:angelsad2: or :Angel_anim: (Depending on your POV, of course ;) )

Rosie

[Saille]

Okay, so it is a tough question but.... My thought was that Jesus did not go around demanding respect. ;) As his follower and as imitator of my Heavenly Father, of whom Jesus was a perfect representation I strive to follow his example.

 

I didn't mean you, Loved. Your response to Klein Hexe indicated to me that you aren't looking for any sort of special deference. I'm refining the line between an appropriate expectation and the one I've been objecting to.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I didn't mean you, Loved. Your response to Klein Hexe indicated to me that you aren't looking for any sort of special deference. I'm refining the line between an appropriate expectation and the one I've been objecting to.

See now, that is why I had to quickly edit my response to Klein Hexe. Y'all go around quoting me and I get the idea that you are saying something about me that you aren't.

[justamouse]

Zoiks this one hit the low notes.

 

 

I thought the superfluous apostrophe was exactly the thing that made that quote perfect. ;)

 

Didn't it? that one was a brilliant piece of work.

 

Are to talking to me or just the thread in general?

 

Either way, I couldn't care less if you're NOT offended. :001_smile:

 

The thread in general.

 

As for the original post, I think the Egermeier Bible Story Book fits your request very well. There is zero commentary, only the stories. The stories are told in the same order as the Bible and with similar wording, yet simplified for kids. There is no interpretation given, just the stories.

 

I second Ergermeier's Bible Story Book. It's what I learned the stories from, and I bought one for my kids, too. Just the story, no commentary and beautiful pictures. But a very Old Skool interpretation of what Jesus looked like (You know, a Holy White Dude). But apart from that, s'all good.

[Storm Bay]

Don't think anyone is arguing that people have no right to be offended. I think they are arguing against people such as Person B slamming Person A for slamming them. Person B could have said "Please be careful using that phrase, many people will find it offensive. You might have better luck if you phrase your questions <this way.>" It seems to be the "pot calling the kettle black" thing that's bothering people most.

 

 

 

Rosie

 

 

Good point. And had I reacted with better manners, I would have worded it that way. Normally I think I'm fairly polite on this forum and I probably could have worded things better. I still think my point is valid, of course, but I definitely used much stronger terminology than normal and I've been on plenty of other threads with hot topics such as religion, origins of life, etc to know how to act. I'm as guilty of having a bad moment as anyone but do try to avoid them.

[Julie in MN]

Julie,

 

I keep speaking directly TO you, and have yet to get one single response.

 

Hi Saille,

What's your question for me?

 

So far, I've seen you not really worried about my being offended by the OP, so that really didn't feel like a conversation to me. It was just: I felt offended, you don't feel I should feel offended.

 

If you're asking "why" I felt offended, I've already said:

 

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about Muslim [etc] mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere.

 

AND

And I will add that if I did choose a particular wording innocently and a Muslim (or Norse worshiper etc) actually chimed in to say that I had offended him deeply by the wording I chose, I just don't believe there is any way I would argue with them

 

 

So, trying to find something you are asking me in your posts, this is what my eyes stop on:

 

I'm feeling cynical about the tone of entitlement in the post.

 

Okay.

 

That happened, on another thread on this board, *this week*. And that is an extremely old conversation on this board, one most members have seen repeatedly. The people who found that offensive sucked it up. No one came in and posted a vituperous, self-focused comment without answering the OP's question. So why do people get to make such a big deal about *this thread*? No one has answered that question yet.

 

I wasn't on that thread. I have no idea.

 

But that argument is erroneous. The beliefs questioned in the old thread are stipulated by some to be untrue, just as the beliefs in this one are stipulated by some to be untrue. I propose that this is an issue of the larger population asserting that their belief is more true than the minority belief.

 

I was not on that thread. I have no idea. But as for "me" --

 

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about Muslim [etc] mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere.

 

 

And moving on,

 

It started out as someone getting very defensive because the OP chose wording that did not lend more authority to the Bible than to other deity stories. The language came directly from another thread in which no one questioned the word usage at all, despite the fact that people on this board hold the deities of other mythological stories sacred. My impression is that there are some folks responding, "But they shouldn't!" Fine. That's a matter of opinion, and we're all entitled to our opinions. That's something to reflect on. It does not, however, entitle someone to storm into the thread, pitch a fit, and storm out. There's no amount of "translating", however well intentioned, that's going to fix that, nor should you have to try to fix it at all. The discussion is not ongoing because we're disagreeing about what mythology is or isn't. The discussion is ongoing because we're disagreeing about whose religion is real and whose isn't. The subtext of the argument is that Christianity is more legitimate than other belief systems, not just in the souls of the faithful, but in practice, on this board.

 

First of all, I did explain that I didn't "storm out." I already said I got busy. I am a homeschool teacher. I have a needy husband and a lot of medical calls/paperwork. I even do some laundry once in a while. But sometimes I might feel it's appropriate for me to bow out, yes, I admit that. And again, I know nothing about yet another thread you reference, but as for "me" --

 

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about Muslim [etc] mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere.

 

 

And then I read,

 

Julie,

 

Thank you for checking in on this thread.

 

First, I'd like to say that it's pretty disingenuous to act like you made a pleasantly worded request.

 

I personally vote for moving this to the general board.

 

I know you're looking for "books" technically. But surely you're aware that using the term "mythology" is insulting my intelligence and insinuating that I have no historical, scientific, or physical evidence for my beliefs.

 

Sorry, but I have strong opinions when you get down to the core of my being.

Julie, I feel really strongly that you are asking for a level of consideration that is unreasonable. It is not anyone's responsibility to use languange that indicates they agree with your religious beliefs just so you won't have to confront the fact that some folks don't. I found your tone extremely snarky.

 

Okay, I am sorry you felt I was disingenous, unreasonable, and snarky. I felt my original statement was equivalent to the OP. In fact, I think your various statements above about other posts seems to clarify that the OP may well have been an intentional "response" to something and not just an innocent post.

 

It strikes me rather forcibly that your comment was the reason for the non-curriculum responses.

 

You did more than state your reason. You angrily personalized the issue. You accused the OP of deliberately insulting the core of your being. I respectfully suggest that folks who post something in anger should probably do it when they're not going to be too busy to follow up.

 

Okay, more about me. I still am not finding any questions for me. Maybe I'm blinded by all the stuff "about" me.

 

As for scheduling my posts during non-busy times, my life is really not that predictable. And again, bowing out once in a while seems like a good decision sometimes.

 

Second, there's a distinct implication in that second bolded section that non-Christians who teach Christian bible stories out of context (like my public high school's Lit text did, for example) that we are turning our children from the truth. Your truth. This is the undercurrent I'm referring to. That wording makes no sense WRT a non-Christian household. If, OTOH, a neighbor was trying to influence your Christian kids without your approval, then that wording might apply.

 

Again I can only respond --

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about Muslim [etc] mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere.

 

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am saying that you are doing this, right now, on this thread. You are expecting a level of consideration on this board that no one from any other religous group is asking for. This is not theoretical. I've made it clear over time that I am a pantheist. I am far from being the only pan- or polytheist on this board, let alone one of the folks from the larger religious groups you mention. I have a problem with the implication that you are entitled to more consideration WRT your religious views than I am.

 

Again I don't see any questions for me, and you can scroll back up on this very post for my response :)

 

You have no right to be protected from the mere implication that others consider your religious beliefs to be myths/mythos. There are things you can do, if you don't like it. You have the right to walk away. You have the right to not look. You can cover your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears. None of those reactions seem particularly mature or educated, but they exist.

 

This is NOT a Christian board. This is not your home. This is a community of nearly 15,000 people. It has been demonstrated multiple times, on this thread and others, that the people freaking out about this wording are expecting more consideration than other board members receive or expect. Being offended is NOT proof that someone WAS offensive. *Yes*, people DO come here asking for books on Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Christian or Pagan "myths". I posted several examples upthread. Please go look.

 

Those were meant for other folks & only possibly indirectly about me. But still I see no questions and nothing I can say except --

 

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about Muslim [etc] mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere.

 

and maybe --

I do NOT believe that you must agree with me (on anything).

 

[Jenn in Mo]

QUOTE=Cindie2dds;1477483]

 

I actually lost this in the plethora of words in your post.

 

 

 

:blushing: Yeah. I do that. I'm sorry. My husband has learned how to nod appreciatively while tuning me out. I need to work on it. :blushing:

 

When I first started homeschooling, I "knew" much more about the topic than I do now! :D

 

Oh, I KNOW! And I was such a better parent before I actually had kids. :lol:

[Saille]

Julie,

 

How about I phrase comments addressed to you as questions from now on?

 

Can you see how it might frustrate me that you can't be bothered to go look at the threads I am linking to/referencing? Can you see how that might come across as expecting more than you are willing to give? Can you see how that might make me much less likely to care how you feel?

 

I personally would not even think of beginning a thread called "Books about Muslim [etc] mythology." Not ever. Not anywhere.

Do you know that I don't feel like that answers anything I've asked? Can you answer my original query, retyped below?

 

Why is it OK for you to expect deferential treatment that no board member of any other religion is getting?

 

Would you please address the bolded section of the below quote?

 

Second, there's a distinct implication in that second bolded section that non-Christians who teach Christian bible stories out of context (like my public high school's Lit text did, for example) that we are turning our children from the truth. Your truth. This is the undercurrent I'm referring to. That wording makes no sense WRT a non-Christian household. If, OTOH, a neighbor was trying to influence your Christian kids without your approval, then that wording might apply.

Do you believe that I should teach my children to adhere to your beliefs, and that if I don't, I am "turning my children from the truth"? Would it be OK with you if I said that about you and your children?

 

Can I clarify that the bolded portions of the below quote are, in fact, referring to you?

 

You have no right to be protected from the mere implication that others consider your religious beliefs to be myths/mythos. There are things you can do, if you don't like it. You have the right to walk away. You have the right to not look. You can cover your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears. None of those reactions seem particularly mature or educated, but they exist.

 

This is NOT a Christian board. This is not your home. This is a community of nearly 15,000 people. It has been demonstrated multiple times, on this thread and others, that the people freaking out about this wording are expecting more consideration than other board members receive or expect. Being offended is NOT proof that someone WAS offensive. *Yes*, people DO come here asking for books on Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Christian or Pagan "myths". I posted several examples upthread. Please go look.

Do you have anything to say about that quote?

[KarenNC]

My children have had the opportunity to have friends from families of a few religions different from ours. My ds has a very close friend that is like a brother to him who is Muslim. His Muslim friend, in a moment of anger, once said to my son that the world would be a better place if there were no Christians in it. His friend was lashing out due to jealousy because my son was playing basketball with other boys besides his Muslim friend and also anger that my son had called him "shorty".They were all about 11 or 12 years old if my memory serves me right. I gave my son and his friend a firm talking too that if they were going to continue to be friends they needed to respect each another. I told my son he needed to stop making comments to his friend in reference to his height and I told his friend not to make disrespectful comments in regards to our religion. His friend came to our house soon after that but I told him until they apologized to each other and set up some rules in regards to how they would treat each other they wouldn't be spending time together. They did that and have been friends since then but there have been some rocky times in their friendship over the years.That friendship could have easily just been blown apart that day, but with some coaching they were each able to learn a lesson in respect.

 

That sort of thing is exactly why we have been part of an inclusive homeschool group for almost 6 years, one that includes Christians (conservative, liberal, Protestant, Roman Catholic and Episcopalian, etc), Jews, Buddhists, Neopagans, those who are not religious as far as I know, etc. Yes, there are instances when the kids get into it over religion, but, as I told one friend whose son was trying to convert my daughter (the friend was appalled and called to apologize--I hadn't even heard that it had happened until then), this sort of thing is going to happen to my daughter because she is part of a minority religion and living in the Bible Belt and she has to learn to deal with it. I am glad, however, that it is happening in a group in which the kids know each other as something other than just a religious label and have parents who will model respect for each other.

[Guest Cindie2dds]

Exactly, which is why I named 4 as examples of religions I do not adhere to and that are not Christian (and I was careful to include at least 2 that didn't share obvious roots,) and said "ETC" which, of course, means "and the rest." My first post said that because this is an open board this was inflammatory, not because people aren't entitled to their beliefs. This is not to say that there aren't other inflammatory posts, of course.

 

Oops. I must have misread your post. That's what I get for trying to read and respond to a hot thread on my iPhone in between flights. I apologize.

[Saille]

Can I ever post anything without editing? (That was rhetorical; not even I can answer that one.) :lol:

 

In fact, I think your various statements above about other posts seems to clarify that the OP may well have been an intentional "response" to something and not just an innocent post.

 

Is it possible that, if that wording was posted elsewhere on the board with no ill effect, it simply set a precedent which Melanie followed when she posted? Is it possible that it gave you a jolt, not because of Melanie, but because you tend to interact with people who agree with or are willing to defer to you?