Behavior Evaluations?

[calledtobehome]

:crying:I'm looking to get advice from someone who has taken there young child to be evaluated for his or her behavior. I am very concerned and frustrated with my 5 yr old son behavior over the last week or so. He has always been a very bright child. He learns fast, reads at a third grade level, and likes to have fun but he is also very strong willed! It seems like things are going down hill behavior wise and I don't know what to do for him. We very seldom have problems with this child in public, at social events, field trips etc. It's his behavior when at home that conserns us. Today was really over the top. I took both of our sons ages 5 and 6 to the movies at the library and on our way home he became upset in the car about not being allowed to climb in the trunck to get his helmet. He began kicking the sit and screaming and yelling. When we got home I told him to go up in his room until dinner was ready because of his dangerous behavior in the car. He became upset again and decided to kick our kitchen wall and kicking at me. I picked him up and took him in the bedroom. While in the bedroom he began to throw the pillows, sheets, and blanket on the floor. He was allowed to come down stairs after he got his self together and while down stairs he became upset again because he was not allowed to get marshmallows and choc milk beacuse he didn't eat his food. He than screamed at me and said he should kick me in the stomach. I am so torn as to whether he should be evaluated or not? I am very concerned by his beahvior although he is a great child he seems to have anger issues.(Atleast that's what I think I could be wrong)! I can say that when we are consistent with behavior charts his behavior isn't as bad!

 

Thanks for listening,

Looking for some kind of feedback that may help us!! :crying:

[Country Mouse]

:grouphug:

This sounds like an average temper tantrum to me. You mentioned that if you use behavior charts he is able to control his anger. This doesn't sound like an out-of-control child to me.

I'm not sure what the goal of a behavior evaluation would be.

Could your ds be overly tired, overly stressed, or just off his regular schedule? Any of these scenarios can put my ds in a different place behavior-wise.

[Renee in NC]

I would start with a food and behavior diary first. My 8yo can be over-the-top, out-of-control, and downright dangerous when he has had too much gluten. Certain dyes have set him off in the past as well. The diary would help you see if there was a pattern so you could eliminate a certain food if necessary.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would bet that he was tired or hungry or both--not that that justifies his behavior, but it tends to pull down a child's capability for self-control.

 

I think that to the highest extent possible you should try to react calmly regardless of his extreme emotion--that projects calm into the situation, which can be helpful to him. I think that your disciplinary actions were appropriate. I would add that if you can be very watchful about junk food, hunger, and sufficient sleep for the next few days, this won't happen again so much. Also, when my DD acted this way, often a day or two later she would end up coming down with a cold or flu, so extra rest and nutrition were helpful on every level.

[Pippen]

There's a book I'd recommend called What Your Explosive Child is Trying to Tell You by Douglas Riley. It might help you sort this out and decide where to go from here.

 

http://www.amazon.com/What-Your-Explosive-Child-Trying/dp/B002V1GZKA?&camp=212361&linkCode=wsw&tag=condudisor08-20&creative=391881

 

Edit to add: Has this been ongoing or did you just see this behavior start over the holidays?

[Tidbits of Learning]

I would start with a food and behavior diary first. My 8yo can be over-the-top, out-of-control, and downright dangerous when he has had too much gluten. Certain dyes have set him off in the past as well. The diary would help you see if there was a pattern so you could eliminate a certain food if necessary.

 

:iagree:My ds has severe food allergies and it can definitely change their behavior and ability to control themselves, focus, and such. I would eliminate milk first.

[gardening momma]

It sounds like some of the flare-ups dd6 has had--temper tantrums/major disobedience, for sure. One thing I have realized recently is that we have a couple/few weeks of calm and she doesn't need much "discipline"--she behaves the way we want her to behave. But it's more of a coincidence; things are just happening to go her way, to her satisfaction, and it appears that she's obeying. But when we want her to do or not do something, and she disagrees, then we have a major battle. During those weeks of calm I think she gets the impression that she can do what she wants around here. I've come to realize that I need to exert my authority more often so that we're not just sliding along so blissfully in two separate worlds until we come clashing together.

[calledtobehome]

Not sure where it's coming from but I do like the idea of keeping a food diary. I shop at Trader Joes and we don't drink milk so that's not it but we have had our share of junk food the last week or so. Our kids haven't been on their normal routine because of Christmas. He could just be very tired today because he's been sleep beside dad for the last hour and a half! He has always been the strong willed child unlike is brother who is very obedient and like to please. He will test us to the limit but he has never sad really mean things to me until today. I will work really hard to stay calm when things aren't going well. I have a tendancy to yell or raise my voice out of frustration and I know that doesn't work at all!

 

I feel a little better thanks alot!

[Lisa in Jax]

My son's personality is noticeably different when he eats gluten, dairy, preservatives or artificial colors.

 

It was a pain in the patootey to learn how to be gluten and dairy free, but it's SO worth it.

 

Lisa

[Renee in NC]

Not sure where it's coming from but I do like the idea of keeping a food diary. I shop at Trader Joes and we don't drink milk so that's not it but we have had our share of junk food the last week or so. Our kids haven't been on their normal routine because of Christmas. He could just be very tired today because he's been sleep beside dad for the last hour and a half! He has always been the strong willed child unlike is brother who is very obedient and like to please. He will test us to the limit but he has never sad really mean things to me until today. I will work really hard to stay calm when things aren't going well. I have a tendancy to yell or raise my voice out of frustration and I know that doesn't work at all!

 

I feel a little better thanks alot!

 

With this added, it seems like he is a normal 5yo. My 5yo girl has her moments, usually when she is overtired. Add in a mix-up in routine, too much junk food, etc. and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

If you also have a very easy-tempered child, then the differences cause you to think things are really bad when they may be normal.

[abbeyej]

Well, I do not think that's expected behavior from a 5yo. That doesn't mean he necessarily has something "diagnosable" going on either, but it does sound outside the range of normal to me.

 

Like others have said, I think a food diary could be of help. Ds had behaviors like that that subsided almost completely when he was diagnosed with food allergies (not because of the behavioral issues -- because he ended up in the hospital with anaphylaxis) and we were able to get all of those foods out of his diet. Still, for us it was so many foods that I had never seen a patter before. He ate *one* of those foods (and often a number!) at every single meal. Still, once he was diagnosed and we removed the foods, he not only got physically healthier, but the over-the-top *crazy* tantrums vanished. Almost completely. He still got angry, but he remained in control. Now he's older and has outgrown nearly all of his allergies (even to the point that he did okay with an accidental exposure to the food that sent him to the hospital unable to breathe years ago), and he really is a sweet, mellow kid...

 

(Oh, btw, he has never had any problems that we've noticed with "fake" foods. Chemicals, colors, preservatives... Some people swear those are the problem. In our case, it was the whole grains, dairy, legumes, nuts, certain fruits, etc, etc, that were problematic. Go figure! lol)

 

As well as allergies and intolerances to specific foods, keep an eye out for blood sugar issues. Some kids don't have actual allergies or even intolerances, but can have borderline hypoglycemia that sends them into truly horrific rages. In that case, you just have to be hypervigilant about feeding them frequently and avoiding foods that cause blood sugar fluctuations. Breakfast is especially important... The hard part here is that many times once a child crosses into "losing it", it's doubly (or triply or more) difficult to get them to eat *anything*.

 

But I don't think you should have to accept behavior like this as a "normal childhood tantrum". It doesn't mean that there's a lifelong developmental or psychological problem either though. Hopefully just one more childhood challenge to address and move on...

[abbeyej]

Not sure where it's coming from but I do like the idea of keeping a food diary. I shop at Trader Joes and we don't drink milk so that's not it but we have had our share of junk food the last week or so. Our kids haven't been on their normal routine because of Christmas. He could just be very tired today because he's been sleep beside dad for the last hour and a half! He has always been the strong willed child unlike is brother who is very obedient and like to please. He will test us to the limit but he has never sad really mean things to me until today. I will work really hard to stay calm when things aren't going well. I have a tendancy to yell or raise my voice out of frustration and I know that doesn't work at all!

 

I feel a little better thanks alot!

 

Yeah, this definitely does make it sound *more* normal. Though the exhaustion could be from the tantrum itself (or blood sugar issues)...

[gardening momma]

Well, I do not think that's expected behavior from a 5yo. That doesn't mean he necessarily has something "diagnosable" going on either, but it does sound outside the range of normal to me.

Everything you said in between was good...

But I don't think you should have to accept behavior like this as a "normal childhood tantrum". It doesn't mean that there's a lifelong developmental or psychological problem either though. Hopefully just one more childhood challenge to address and move on...

But I don't think anyone was saying that such behavior is ok or acceptable, just that yes, this does happen with 5/6 yr olds and something does need to be done (whether it's looking into food allergies, sleep needs, or obedience issues), but it doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be diagnosed with a behavior problem like I ~think~ the OP was originally wondering about.

[nova147]

A food diary is definitely a good idea. But you also mentioned that he's bright. Gifted kids don't just learn faster - they think differently than others. And sometimes those differences come through in their behavior. There are some great articles on the Hoagies website about strong-willed gifted children. People seem to like the term "sensitivities" to describe these behavior patterns in gifted kids, if you're doing internet searches for ideas.

 

I used to work with children who had diagnosed behavioral disorders. Unless you son's behavior is frequent (at least 4 times a week), I would suspect it is fairly "normal". DS5 often seems unable to handle his anger and still only sometimes manages to keep from hitting/kicking. Some kids are just more intense. Kids with true behavior disorders are a whole other level - there is often a lack of control much more typical of a toddler in school aged children and a level of violence that is much more frightening. Especially if you are only seeing an escalation in the past week or so, I would suspect it has much more to do with disruption in routine than a disorder.

 

If you do decide to seek an evaluation, start with your pediatrician. They know somethings about what's normal, plus they have contact with agencies and doctors who deal with abnormal behaviors.

[Kirch]

We went through a VERY similar phase with my 5 yr. old (who sounds a lot like yours--very bright, reads well, etc.) not too long ago. He'd always been a pretty good, pretty easy kid, so it blindsided us, which made it really tough to deal with for a while. Out of the blue, he was screaming, knocking over chairs, hitting and kicking . . . It was pretty clear after a few episodes, though, that part of it was him losing control, and part of it was, "If I do this, what will you do?" There were also a few "threats" similar to what your son said to you. We addressed those after things calmed down, talked about how hurtful it was that he said something like that and about whether he really meant it. He was clearly remorseful and didn't mean it, so we also talked about how easy it is to say really hurtful things while you're angry. We even had one episode in the Wal-Mart parking lot when I just didn't know what to do (I eventually waited him out and we dealt with the consequences at home--and I refused to take him with me when I went places for a while).

 

We finally seem to be past it now (PRAISE GOD!). These are some things we did:

 

 

 

• I tried really (REALLY) hard not to get emotional and angry. When I reacted, he reacted, and then I reacted more . . . it escalated things really quickly. When I could calmly warn him about what consequences were going to come and then implement them calmly when needed, it helped A LOT. It was hard, though. I was MAD and really hurt that he was acting like this and saying these things.
  

 

 

 

 

• We worked on being consistent. He finally seemed to realize that when he disobeyed or threw a fit, I was not going to back down or bargain on the consequences. Even if that meant sitting by his door for 30 minutes or more to keep him in his room when he had a time-out (we started with 5 minutes, but we added time by the minute for not going to his room and by 5 minute increments for hitting/kicking/throwing things. Any toys or belongings he threw at us or at the door when he was in his room were taken away for several days).
  

 

 

 

 

• We talked a lot about how choosing an action means choosing the consequences of that action, good and bad. This involved a lot of coaching in situations that threatened to go bad ("If you choose not to obey mommy, that means you're choosing not to go to the park") as well as pointing out good actions/consequences, even when unrelated to discipline issues ("Hey! Look what happened when you chose to share the train tracks with your brother. You guys worked together to make an awesome track!")
  

 

 

 

 

• I learned that presenting him his options, clearly outlining the good and bad consequences, and then backing off and letting him make his choice without me hovering got much better results than me pushing/badgering him to do whatever it was. I think it helped him "own" his decisions. For example, if he wasn't cleaning up toys like he was supposed to, I'd say, "Mommy told you to clean up your legos. Are you choosing to disobey mommy? If you choose to disobey and not clean up, that means you're choosing to go to time out AND choosing for your legos to go in the shed for the rest of the week. If you choose to obey, you'll get to play with your legos later. I need to go put clothes in the dryer--you need to decide what you're going to do. If your legos are still out when I get back, that's the same as choosing to disobey."
  

 

This phase lasted maybe 3-4 months for us, with more frequent episodes earlier on until we finally started to get a handle on how to deal with him. I had a few moments where I wondered if we needed help, too, so I understand! I also called my mom in tears a time or two. Keeping a food diary might be a good idea, but I think I'd hold off on a formal evaluation of any kind unless it continues for a while or escalates. Step back and see if you can find a pattern, and try to discern if he's testing boundaries (that was clearly part of our situation) or just out of control. If he's just losing it, work on figuring out what sets him off and try to help him learn to handle those situations. This needs to include enforcing consequences to show him that losing it is NOT okay. For us, the biggest trigger was simply when he didn't get his way about something. I think that's part of why backing off and letting him make his choices on his own helped--he felt less constricted, if that makes sense.

 

When he finds himself dealing with unpleasant consequences, make it clear that it was HIS choices that got him there (ASK him whose choices led to this so that he has to verbally take responsibility). If he loses it in the car, pull over until he stops and then enforce consequences when you get home.

 

You can also work (when he's calm) on teaching acceptable ways to deal with anger (hitting/screaming into a pillow, going outside and stomping feet, verbalizing "I'm so mad at you!", etc.).

 

:grouphug: Hugs from one who's been there recently. Hang in there!

Edited December 31, 2009 by Kirch

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 

 

 

• as well as pointing out good actions/consequences, even when unrelated to discipline issues ("Hey! Look what happened when you chose to share the train tracks with your brother. You guys worked together to make an awesome track!")

 

 

 

 

 

Noticing the good is a really powerful positive reinforcement technique.

[calledtobehome]

Heather thank you so much for the detailed example of your situation. We have a lot of similarities. I'm going to save your response and refer to it often. I love the idea of letting my son take responsibility for his actions and also knowing there are good and not so good consequences but it's up to him to make that choice by giving him options! My husband and I have to work on being more consitent and I have to pray and work on being calm. I also like what you said about pointing out the good. I do believe the good is a very powerful reinforcement!

 

nova147-Thank you for this info. I will do some searching on the Hoagies website to see what I come up with. If things continue (I pray they won't) than I speak to his pedatrician about our circumstances!

 

Gifted kids don't just learn faster - they think differently than others. And sometimes those differences come through in their behavior. There are some great articles on the Hoagies website about strong-willed gifted children. People seem to like the term "sensitivities" to describe these behavior patterns in gifted kids, if you're doing internet searches for ideas.

 

:grouphug:

 

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you

[grace'smom]

I love what Kirch said about presenting the options and backing off. I'm going to try that. I bet that would help us a lot.

 

I feel for you with your son, we have the same types of things here fairly often. DD is an only child, so she tends to have more control over things than most kids. She's out of practice with things not going her way, LOL.

[lionfamily1999]

It sounds like some of the flare-ups dd6 has had--temper tantrums/major disobedience, for sure. One thing I have realized recently is that we have a couple/few weeks of calm and she doesn't need much "discipline"--she behaves the way we want her to behave. But it's more of a coincidence; things are just happening to go her way, to her satisfaction, and it appears that she's obeying. But when we want her to do or not do something, and she disagrees, then we have a major battle. During those weeks of calm I think she gets the impression that she can do what she wants around here. I've come to realize that I need to exert my authority more often so that we're not just sliding along so blissfully in two separate worlds until we come clashing together.

We've noticed a rythm to it too. It's almost a cycle. For us, though, we both noticed that during those calm periods, the kids got away with all kinds of things. It would build back up into this impossible mess and I'd have to put my foot down. Then, for a week or so, there would be no wiggle room, dcs did what they were told, immediately, or face consequences. As they started to behave, the consequences lessened, they had more and more wiggle room, I stopped being as firm. The next thing I knew they would ignore us both and do whatever they wanted.

 

Now, I make myself remain firm(ish) even when it is all hunky-dory. Neither dh nor myself want to be big jerks, we both want to say 'oh what's the harm,' but we've both promised each other to not let them stretch the rules to that point anymore.

[lgm]

How are his emotional coping skills? Can he normally cope with not getting what he wants immediately?

 

Does he have sensory needs? A library movie was over the top for my kid at that age - way too much noise and visual stimulation from the rest of the crowd combined with lack of snack at appropriate time.

[Jan in SC]

My guys always act like this when they get sick. We will have a horrible day and there will be yelling and time-outs , etc..., and the next day the child will complain of a terrible earache or have a fever.

 

I wouldn't worry too much. He is very, very young. A young, bright child does not know how to communicate as quickly as he can think. Stay consistent and you will know if there are other issues.

 

It is actually a good thing that he can hold it together in public. Praise him for this. Know that he loves you and trusts you that he only lets you see this other side of the behavior!

[dirty ethel rackham]

If this is out of the ordinary behavior, I would look into sensory issues.

 

My middle son had explosive tantrums between 3 and 4 ... 45 minute long temper tantrums with blood curdling screams and hitting/flailing - at least 6 or 7 per day. We had moved and were expecting a new baby. After he walloped a neighbor child with a plastic baseball bat, the tantrums lessened (I think he scared himself.) However, he continued to fly into rages that were a bit less intense and weren't violent, over the stupidest little thing - I didn't cut his toast into triangles ... His dad went to work ... We didn't live in a green house. When he was 6, I noticed other things in large group settings, so I got an evaluation and found out he had sensory issues. After working with the school (who would not acknowledge the sensory stuff, but only the expressive language "delays"), we finally happened upon NACD and did therapies with them. Within 6 months of therapy, he became a different kid. He is now 13 and a joy to be around.

[KristenS]

My son had tantrums around 3-5 or so, that caused us to take him in for an evaluation. (The tantrums, coupled with his brightness, obsession with numbers, and a few other quirks had us [okay, me] worried about autism or some other disorder.) It had gotten to the point where I could hardly take him shopping without a screaming meltdown.

 

The one session with the psychologist seemed to be enough for her to tell us he wasn't autistic, just bright and quirky, and that we could ramp up the discipline with no worries. It was reassuring, till he threw a rip-roaring tantrum as we left the clinic parking lot. LOL.

 

Anyway, he's 8 now and much better behaved. With him, it's a gifted kid temperament and sensitivities, mostly, coupled with inconistent discipline. (Like other posters said, we glide through calm phases where everyone gets his own way because there's nothing to clash over, so the clashes catch us by surprise.) The poor kid has inherited my temperament, as well. (I have anxiety, panic, and depression difficulties. I've gotten double use out of my therapy as I can learn strategies to help the both of us!) Transitions are a big thing ... plenty of warning always goes over better than no warning. We are both big on planning ahead. We practice coping strategies when we get overwhelmed. And so on.

 

We've been lucky, in that homeschooling gives us time to work on these strategies. And we've got a Cub Scout pack full of equally quirky boys, which helps all us parents to work with our kids in a pressure-free setting. No need to be embarrassed by a meltdown when other parents are dealing with similar issues! Which makes it easier to handle, and makes our responses better, which in turn helps the child's behavior.

 

Younger sister has a much easier temperament, which is great ... though dh said he notices she's sneakier about things, probably because we worry over her less. She does get away with stuff ... we have to watch her ... but then she just turned 5 and there does seem to be something about that age ...

 

Another term to google is "overexcitabilities" if that helps.