Question for Christians

[lionfamily1999]

it's only "lying by omission" if the single/widowed/married status means LEGALLY single/widowed/married and you are legally NOT the one you chose.

 

 

I think they should have a spiritual marriage ceremony if it's causing that much strife and they would be willing to make it public. That IS Christ-like :)

 

i think what is NOT Christ-like is the church putting more emphasis on the legal paperwork than the spiritual process/commitment. God gets shoved out of the way and we forget to process things spiritually and rely on legalities: we have been led astray by the "render unto caesar what is Caesar's" because we start thinking that just because ceasar offers it as an option, we too must conform to that.

We don't have to!

We can take advantage of the legal option and be a good steward of our resources [tax/gvt benefits/insurance, etc].

We can choose to opt out of those opportunities and settle for what CHRIST and the CHURCH can offer us: spiritual affirmation and support.

either way is allowed by our gvt.

 

If the younger couples want to make that spiritual commitment then I think the church should support it. :)

I agree with nearly everything, except that I'm not sure that marraige status is optional, so much as, if you're married, then you should say so, iykwIm.

 

You're doing so good :p

I think the larger issue here is repentance. We are told to repent from our sin - turn away from it. The boyfriend is not repenting (an often long and difficult process), and part of a pastor's job, and the most difficult one, is to prepare his flock to be the Bride of Christ. The Bible tells us that those who refuse to repent are to be brought through church discipline - not to be cruel, but to "grow them up" in Christ. The boyfriend isn't willing to do the hard things that God has called him to do, and the pastor IS doing what God has called HIM to do.

 

I also understand that the boyfriend is a new Christian, and has a lot of growing to do. I'm hoping that the pastor is as intentional about teaching and discipling him, which will lead to better understanding of why God has called us to holiness. As Christians we have to believe that being obedient is always what is right, even if it is difficult and painful.

:iagree:

Is this my answer? ;)

I Corinthians has quite a bit on this. Earlier in the thread I quoted chapter 5, that explains the why's of church discipline (for lack of a better word) :)

[Mrs Mungo]

The pastor can say that it is not right to co-habitat. I am stating based upon Ezekiel 33:7-9. The church needs to call sin sin when they become aware of it.

 

I'm really not sure what that passage has to do with co-habitation. It has to do with sin and being watchful for sin. However, the fact is, this couple probably has a common law marriage in the eyes of the state. Ceremonial marriages, as they exist now, didn't exist in Biblical times.

 

If you're in Texas all they need to do in order to be married according to common law is agree that they are married and to hold themselves as a married couple-tell people they are married, have a joint checking account with Mr and Mrs ___ on it, something like that. In Texas a common law marriage has the same legal status as a ceremonial marriage. My dad once worked with a guy who got married by common law twice and had to get a legal divorce to get out of it both times.

 

If they are married by common law then they are married and there's nothing to fight about or call him out for.

[PineFarmMom]

Is this my answer? ;)

 

 

Yeah, pretty much! :)

[PineFarmMom]

:iagree:100%. Especially the bolded part. It is important to know if someone doesn't believe in the Bible when taking advice from them.

 

 

Amen to that!! When it comes to Biblical matters, if I find that someone has a low estimation of God's Word or think it's just man-made, it makes it aheckufalot easier for me to toss the advice and move on. :) For me, if someone takes God's Word and makes it all smushy mushy, lovey-dovey, and has a let-me-make-this-what-I-want-it-to-be-so-I'm-not-challenged-and-step-on-no-toes attitude towards it, it helps me to know because I just don't have time.

[Renai]

Yet, screwing many, many women in loveless selfish sex and trading stds around like candy is okay... because he repents after. I told him if you do it again on a perpetual basis, it *is* living in sin, and you

 

Tell him Romans 6:1-2 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

 

 

Just because he asks forgiveness, does not mean he is to continue in the sin.

[Mrs Mungo]

Exactly. Welll said.

 

According to this way of thinking, it is very easy to marry and divorce. So it's posible to have many "marriages" (and divorces) over the course of a lifetime. If this is what a marriage is, then teenagers all over can marry in an instant and start having sexual relations with each other, have babies, etc., and their parents can't say anything because they are "married".

 

This is factually inaccurate. If you are legally married by common law it is not any easier to get out of than a ceremonial marriage. You must go through the same divorce process, either way. This may depend upon the state but if the OPer is in Texas (just judging from her name) then that is certainly the case.

[Renai]

This is also different in mainstream Christianity. You just have to volunteer really and you get to help out. It's not a sign of being in good graces with the elders.

 

It really depends on the church. Not all "mainstream" churches operate in this way. BTW, what is considered mainstream anyway :confused: ? Hmmm, maybe you shouldn't answer this, this thread has taken quite a few turns already...

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm not talking about common law marriage! If you look at what I quoted, you will see that I'm talking about those that say it's okay to have sexual relations if they said vows to each other and it's in their hearts that they are "married". ;);)

 

If this couple is married according to common law do you stand by your earlier statements in the thread-that he's committing adultery, etc?

[Mrs Mungo]

They aren't married by common law according to them. They say they aren't married.

 

Maybe they don't realize how easy it would be. All they need to do is start telling people they are married and they will be married. Maybe they don't realize they don't need a big ceremony or anything.

[Renee in NC]

If this couple is married according to common law do you stand by your earlier statements in the thread-that he's committing adultery, etc?

 

You then get into a question as to whether it is a valid marriage. Not going there!:lol:

 

It doesn't seem from the description that they are putting themselves out there as husband and wife, though, which would be a requirement of common law marriage. The mother is so insistent that they *not* be married that she won't even do a "spiritual marriage" as some have suggested.

 

It seems as if this is a situation that just stinks. I stand by my statement earlier that I feel very sorry for him.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm not talking about common law marriage! If you look at what I quoted, you will see that I'm talking about those that say it's okay to have sexual relations if they said vows to each other and it's in their hearts that they are "married". ;);)

 

What else do you think they need to do in order to be married? Saying vows to each other, making a covenant with each other is all they need from a Biblical perspective. Look at the description of God's marriage to Israel in Jeremiah 3 and Ezekiel 16. Jeremiah also describes God's "divorce" from Israel due to infidelity.

[Mrs Mungo]

:confused: No clue at all. I'm not sure what I think about common law marriages. I don't know what God thinks about it either. The verse mentioned earlier (about living by the laws of the land) might apply here. If someone else knows more than I do about this, please respond. I've never understood why people don't just get married if they are going to be married by common law, but that may just be me.

 

Because they don't always feel the need. All you need from a Biblical perspective is to make a covenant (vows, a contract, promises) with each other. So, where in the Bible do you see that people need more than that? Maybe you can argue for a wedding feast but nothing more than that existed from a Biblical perspective. As far as I can see, those who say they don't need to do anything more than say vows to each other and hold themselves forth as husband and wife are correct. I don't see any Biblical admonition to file at city hall.

 

I feel terribly sorry for this man too. If she loves him, it seems like she would marry him even if it was just to end his turmoil! If they are in a commited relationship, it wouldn't change anything for her, right? What were her reasons not to?

 

I feel sorry for both of them. She must have been severely hurt and controlled in a former relationship to have such animosity toward any appearance of marriage.

[Joanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanne

Are we asking the gluttons, the gossipers, the "everything but penetration" teens, those who gamble, those who make an idol of church activity/ministry, those who neglect family..........to leave?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanne

It's not irrelevant to me, as a Christian involved in a church and, over the years, many church fellowships.

 

It's very relevant to what I believe in and how I believe God wants our churches to function.

 

This thread makes me very sad.

 

 

You may not agree with something, but if it's in the Bible, you are just arguing with God. It says it... you can believe it or not, but it's probably not a good idea to argue with another Christian who believes something in the Bible... they have good reason to believe it.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erica in PA

Well, that doesn't bother me, but I think it's good for people to know that fact as they consider your opinion on a biblical topic. For me, I'm coming from a viewpoint that all Scripture is inspired by God and inerrant, so what the Bible says matters more than anything else. Any advice I give anyone will reflect that, so my advice will be most valuable to those who hold Scripture in the same regard. Those who share your views on Scripture will likely find your advice to be more appealing. I'm not sure which the OP is, but at least she has a variety of viewpoints represented to consider.

 

I don't know about this particular case, either, because we don't know all the details. But several posters here seem to imply that excommunication is wrong across the board, and unbiblical, so I felt a responsibility to present the fact that it is absolutely commanded specifically in 1 Cor. 5, with related principles throughout the NT. The Bible also never implies that the leadership (or pastor in this case) must be sinless in order to remove a person from the church, or else be labeled a hypocrite. (Otherwise Paul would not have ordered the leadership at Corinth to do this if that were the case, since obviously they could not have been sinless either.)

 

Whether it applies in this specific case, I don't know, but it sounds from what we do know, that there is public, unrepented-of sin going on, which sounds similar to 1 Cor. 5 to me. I certainly do not think there is any justification for attacking this pastor, and casting aspersions on his character, when he appears to be trying to help this man, and following biblical principles. I find *that* sad.

 

100%. Especially the bolded part. It is important to know if someone doesn't believe in the Bible when taking advice from them.

 

Pardon me, Jinnah, but I am finding your posts in response to my posts to be hurtful. I am a Bible believing, Jesus loving, worshiping, active Christian. I clearly don't believe and interpret everything the way you do, but I would NEVER dream of calling into question your faith as you have done to me in your repeated quoting of posts.

[Mrs Mungo]

I always wondered about how people got married back in biblical times. Someone with more knowledge in this area will have to answer this one. I know we are to follow the laws of the land though.

 

But the laws of the land (many places) include provisions for common law marriage. In Biblical times you told everyone you were getting married, you had a feast and you were married. You made a contract with each other and let everyone know about it. That's all that was required. In Jeremiah you can see how God "married" Israel and later divorced Israel due to infidelity (Jeremiah 3:8). Or you could take a look at Ezekiel

 

Would you be okay with teenagers making vows to each other and being married? Then getting divorced shortly later?

 

A teen (under 18) doesn't have the legal right to enter into a contract (which is what marriage is from a Biblical perspective). You can't just get divorced willy nilly, there are conditions.

[NancyNellen]

I just want to clarify what Matthew 18 teaches: Being "put out of the church" does not mean disallowing them to attend the church building. It is a formal acknowledgment that this person, who is living in unrepentant sin, is not a true believer (out of THE church body of believers.) He would certainly be welcome to attend the church, but would be considered an unbeliever. This is the Biblical command for dealing with unrepentant sin. It's not an option, which frankly is the way most American churches interpret it.

 

We all sin, but the true believer is horrified by his sin and repents. Forgiveness is granted graciously to those who are humble and contrite. Those who refuse to repent, after the appropriate Biblical discipline, must be considered an unbeliever.

[NancyNellen]

I do not equate marriage and divorce to paper, as I'm sure most don't. I equate it to a covenant between the husband, wife, and the Lord. No covenant, no true marriage. No true marriage, then it is a sinful relationship, if there are sexual relations.

[Mrs Mungo]

If you are right, and that is all that was needed in biblical times, has this couple done that? Again, we are to live by the laws of the land and the country we live in says you need to get a marriage license, so they should probably do that if you want to follow the Bible accordingly, right?

 

The country we live in does *not* say you need a marriage license, you are wrong. Marriage is something controlled by individual states, not the federal government. You are right that in order to be married (Biblically or common law in Texas) then they need to decide they are going to be married and let everyone know about it.

 

As far as her previous relationships, I think after all these years, she realizes it's the abusive man that was the problem, not being married. Does she think once they marry, he's going to start abusing her? If so, he's probably not the right guy for her then.

 

Have you ever known a woman in an extremely controlling relationship? Many of them are absolutely afraid in the future that the man will change and become more controlling with marriage. I can't blame those women.

[Mrs Mungo]

I do not equate marriage and divorce to paper, as I'm sure most don't. I equate it to a covenant between the husband, wife, and the Lord. No covenant, no true marriage. No true marriage, then it is a sinful relationship, if there are sexual relations.

 

True. I was addressing what Jinnah was arguing (that you can't just say vows and be married). The latter part still appears to be an if. One would think he would say there are no sexual relations and that they are just roommates if that were the case though.

[PineFarmMom]

Pardon me, Jinnah, but I am finding your posts in response to my posts to be hurtful. I am a Bible believing, Jesus loving, worshiping, active Christian. I clearly don't believe and interpret everything the way you do, but I would NEVER dream of calling into question your faith as you have done to me in your repeated quoting of posts.

 

We are called to make our worldview line up with the Bible. We are not called to pull out the scissors and do a little snip snip every time we don't agree with what is in the Bible. Your feelings are hurt. Mine are hurt on a regular basis when I see people attempting to create God in an image that is more satisfactory to all of the Adams & Eves of this world. When we take and leave parts of His character and His Word, toss authors of His Holy Word because we don't like them (?????), then we are making a false god for ourselves. That's when I think we pray to Him and He wonders if we are actually speaking to Him or that one we hammered and chiseled together and stuck over in the corner.

[Joanne]

We are called to make our worldview line up with the Bible. We are not called to pull out the scissors and do a little snip snip every time we don't agree with what is in the Bible. Your feelings are hurt. Mine are hurt on a regular basis when I see people attempting to create God in an image that is more satisfactory to all of the Adams & Eves of this world. When we take and leave parts of His character and His Word, toss authors of His Holy Word because we don't like them (?????), then we are making a false god for ourselves. That's when I think we pray to Him and He wonders if we are actually speaking to Him or that one we hammered and chiseled together and stuck over in the corner.

 

I have not made this thread *personal*. Jinnah did with her selection of quotes and comments. I hear what you perceive my Christianity to be; you need not share it again. I got it. My point is that I have not and do not do that to YOU when I have a different approach.

[Mrs Mungo]

Where can you get married without a marriage license? Where do you not need to go through a legal process to get married?

 

Did you not actually read my post on what it took to have a common law marriage in Texas? You agree to be married, you tell everyone you are married. That's all you need to do. That's all you needed to do for most of human history, that's all you need to do today, in many places.

 

It wasn't until the mid-sixteenth century that the Catholic church decided you needed a priest. In early American you didn't need a religious ceremony, they rejected that concept. State governments didn't begin passing requirements until the nineteenth century.

 

I was actually in an abusive marriage, but I knew all men were not like that.

 

I think being in a controlling relationship (without other types of abuse) is more subtle.

[Joanne]

Joanne, from what I recall, I quoted you one time. That's not repeated quoting. :confused:

 

Jinnah,

 

Have a terrific day. I have too much stuff going on to talk about this dispassionately.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Joanne

[lovemyboys]

Erica, you probably don't want my answer on that one. I'm not a fan of Paul. ;)

 

I do not think, btw, that excommunication is wrong across the board. I think, however, in this case, it is wrong.

 

Wow, really? I'm not being snarky here, just really surprised.

 

Just off the top of my head, other than the Gospels, that's like 2/3 of the New Testament.

 

For the OP, this is tough. Too many churches these days have a real live-and-let-live deal going on with the congregation to keep members. If we all knew when our last days would be, or the end of time for that matter, or even had a glimpse of the justifying power of God, I have a feeling that folks would be cleaning up their acts really quickly -- regardless of what was expedient, financially better, felt good, legal, socially acceptable, or otherwise.

[Mrs Mungo]

LOL, looks like you and I are on two different pages. I said you need a marriage license to get married... not to do common law marriage. Then you said I am wrong.

 

If you have a common law marriage then you are married. How is it different from a legal perspective?

 

So I was looking up how to get married in the U.S. and there is (like a said) legal proceedings you have to go through to get married.

 

http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/marriage.html

 

http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/

 

When you click on that second link you are taken to a list of states. This is because each state has its own marriage laws (although they also have reciprocal laws). There is no *federal law* on how to get married. Therefore you cannot state (as you did) that "in our country you need a marriage license to get married." That is wrong. In some states you need a marriage license, in others you do not. You cannot state what the law is *as a country* (as you did) because states control marriage, not the federal government. That is why you are wrong.

 

Common law marriage obviously has a different process.

 

But it's still a marriage and you don't need a license for it. That is my point.

[Sputterduck]

As far as her previous relationships, I think after all these years, she realizes it's the abusive man that was the problem, not being married. Does she think once they marry, he's going to start abusing her? If so, he's probably not the right guy for her then.

 

I will always worry about that. It won't matter how wonderful the man I'm with is. My exh never abused me before we were married, and it only took him a grand total of about 2 weeks to start after the wedding. I had known him for 5 years. You'd think I'd have known, but I didn't. But in the future I'll be worried and I don't think I can change that.

 

If she is worried about that, it isn't necessarily a reflection on the guy in question.

[Mrs Mungo]

My point was that there is a legal proceeding to get married... you aren't just married because you say so (I'm talking marriage here, not common law). From the beginning of the discussion, I was just saying that you can't just say "we're married" and bam! you're married.

 

I'm sorry but I disagree. In many states (and other places) you CAN just say "we're married" and then you are married, according to common law. Married by common law is just as married as being married by ceremony in the places where it is recognized.

 

I should have said there are rules to follow to get married in our country. I do know that it is not the same in all states, but each state has it's own laws. I saw the link with each of the states' laws... that is why I posted it. Anyway, so I think that clears that up. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, there are rules to follow and each state has its own laws. You are trying to generalize something as un-Biblical when you're wrong. That's not okay.

[lovemyboys]

I know. It drives me up the wall. He is a friend of mine that I really care about and aside from this he's a wonderful Christian man. Better than most, even, except for that one thing. I want to bonk him over the head for his stubbornness and blindness.

 

This brings up another point, I guess. I have no problem confronting him about this, and I have a few times already. I would not, however, think it would be good for him or in any way restore him to God by telling him he can't go to church anymore! It would harm the beejeebers out of him! And it would do no good regarding the sin thing. He needs to be around God's people more, not less. When he is more active in service, he actually repents for a good deal of time.

 

Oh, and he thinks it's a good alternative to having sex with someone he loves. We can debate whether all sins are equal or whatever, but he thinks that screwing dozens and dozens, maybe even a hundred or more women at this point, is better than someone like the man this thread is about. That man is living in sin, according to my friend, and my friend would say that he could never do that. Yet, screwing many, many women in loveless selfish sex and trading stds around like candy is okay... because he repents after. I told him if you do it again on a perpetual basis, it *is* living in sin, and you are *not* truly repenting, esp. since he's been doing it since the age of 16.

 

He doesn't want to get married, so to him he has a choice between one night stands and a consistent woman he cares about. Both are not good, clearly. But he makes himself feel better by not having a consistent partner. Ew.

 

The saddest part about this man's life is how he is cheating himself. Deep down somewhere, he's decided that he's not worthy of a full life of commitment and love, with a woman/family and with God.

 

What was fun and wild for a teen is rather pathetic in a man in his 30s regardless of how it's glamorized in culture or movies or how much he rationalizes his repentance and Christian standing. He feels unworthy so he continues a cycle of behavior that reinforces that unworthiness, no doubt feeling less worthy with each cycle.

 

Sure, not everyone is cut out for life as a married family man. But, from what you've said here, it sounds like he's convinced himself that this thrilling emptiness is good enough, even with the medical drawbacks.

 

Hopefully he'll either hear your words sometime soon, or discover the truth on his own.

[King's Kid]

Essentially, the church told him he needed to move out. He is disabled and only recieves about $600 a month disability so it wouldn't be easy for him to move out. The church knows his financial situation and they found him a room to rent-- FROM A FEMALE. He said thanks but no thanks and that he doesn't want to start his new christian life doing something that would cause my mother tremendous pain. Also, I am struggling a little bit with how renting a room from a female is any less of an appearance of sin than living with my mother???

 

All that said, I understand that the pastor thinks he is doing the right thing by confronting the boyfriend, but I think giving him some sort of ultimatum or telling him that he MUST move out in order to stay in the church is just outright SHAMEFUL. Am I wrong?

 

 

 

Your pastor is trying to help your mother's boyfriend to stop practicing a sin which the Bible is clear about--having s*xual relations when not married.

 

It's true that fornication isn't worse than other sins, for sin is sin in God's eyes, but the Bible does teach that when we "practice" sin, i.e., continue in it without repentance, we are in spiritual danger.

 

Consider these verses from I John (And please, do read them in context): "No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." v. 6

 

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." v. 9

 

And from the gospel of John:

 

"If you love Me, you will obey what I command." v. 15

 

This does not mean that we Christians will not fall into sin at times, but clearly if we refuse to turn away from known sin, and struggle against it, then according to God's word, we do not truly "know" Him.

 

I commend your pastor for caring enough about your mother's boyfriend to confront him about his sin. It's so much easier to pretend it isn't happening, but that would not be a good servant of Jesus Christ, would it?

[Joanne]

I commend your pastor for caring enough for your mother and her boyfriend to confront him about sin. It's much easier to pretend it isn't happening' date=' and that would not be a good servant of Jesus Christ, would it?[/quote']

 

Where you see "caring enough", I suspect spiritual abuse and control.

 

The choices aren't "say nothing" or "make him leave".

[Mrs Mungo]

Where you see "caring enough", I suspect spiritual abuse and control.

 

The choices aren't "say nothing" or "make him leave".

 

:iagree: Yes, church discipline is sometimes necessary. Yes, this is something the pastor should talk to him about. BUT, it takes take for these things to dwell in our hearts and work out from a pragmatic standpoint. I think the church is being unfair. Asking sinners to leave the church is pretty absurd. I hope he finds a new church that is more willing to help him work through this.

[Mrs Mungo]

I am not talking about common law here! Besides, isn't there a time that you have to live together before you can do common law? There are laws/rules for everything.

 

What am I saying that is un-Biblical?! The only thing I have said is wrong is fornication. I said many times that I don't know how God feels about common law marriage, and that I don't even know what I feel about common law marriage. I said that someone that knows more about that should answer your questions. I have been talking about marriage all this time, not common law! I don't even know what you are talking about at this point.

 

Let me sum up.

 

You said:

I'm not talking about common law marriage! If you look at what I quoted, you will see that I'm talking about those that say it's okay to have sexual relations if they said vows to each other and it's in their hearts that they are "married".

You implied in other posts that people who said such things were not true Christians since it wasn't Biblical. However, it is *your* statement that is not Biblical but cultural. Nothing in the Bible says you need to get up in front of a priest or receive a piece of paper from the state. You then switched tactics to say that is was Biblical because you must follow the "laws of the land." However, the "law of the land" in many states doesn't say that, either. If you say vows to each other, decide you are married and tell other people you are married then you are *married* from a Biblical perspective and from a *legal* perspective in many states/other countries. They are right, you are wrong.

 

eta: I do agree this couple is not holding themselves forward as married and are therefore not married. He should seek to rectify that. My argument about marriage was a general, not specific one.

[eternalknot]

 

 

I really think you and I are misunderstanding each other. Let's just agree to disagree. I do not want to keep discussing this as is doesn't even apply to the couple we are talking about! ;)

 

That gets my vote, too.

 

Thanks, Jinnah :)

[Susan in TN]

I do not equate marriage and divorce to paper, as I'm sure most don't. I equate it to a covenant between the husband, wife, and the Lord. No covenant, no true marriage. No true marriage, then it is a sinful relationship, if there are sexual relations.

 

I believe one other thing that needs to be addressed is that God created marriage to be an earthly picture of Christ's relationship to the church. When we are saved, we are saved into a Body of believers. In the same way, when we are married, we are married into a community - a local, covenantal community of real people. This is why we have marriage ceremonies, feasts, celebrations, or other traditions with church, family, and friends. In a way, they bind us in our marriages to a group of people.

 

As for common law marriage, if the two people have determined to "be married" without a ceremony, so be it. However, they will have to commit themselves "publically" to being married. It doesn't appear that the mom here is willing to do that. So my advice would be for the boyfriend to move out until the mom is willing. Avoiding even the appearance of sin and being a stumbling block for others are a couple of issues here to consider.

[lionfamily1999]

You then get into a question as to whether it is a valid marriage. Not going there!:lol:

 

It doesn't seem from the description that they are putting themselves out there as husband and wife, though, which would be a requirement of common law marriage. The mother is so insistent that they *not* be married that she won't even do a "spiritual marriage" as some have suggested.

 

It seems as if this is a situation that just stinks. I stand by my statement earlier that I feel very sorry for him.

That's why I think what the pastor is doing is a good thing. This man is in what seems to be a dead-end relationship. If he was a woman he'd probably have more support from the 'move on' crowd. She doesn't want to be married, he should not be there. I'm pretty sure there's a ton of Proverbs for his situation and illumination of its ultimate end.

I feel terribly sorry for this man too. If she loves him, it seems like she would marry him even if it was just to end his turmoil! If they are in a commited relationship, it wouldn't change anything for her, right? What were her reasons not to?

Speaking from a female perspective... it almost sounds like a matter of buying the cow if the milk is free.

But the laws of the land (many places) include provisions for common law marriage. In Biblical times you told everyone you were getting married, you had a feast and you were married. You made a contract with each other and let everyone know about it. That's all that was required. In Jeremiah you can see how God "married" Israel and later divorced Israel due to infidelity (Jeremiah 3:8). Or you could take a look at Ezekiel

 

 

 

A teen (under 18) doesn't have the legal right to enter into a contract (which is what marriage is from a Biblical perspective). You can't just get divorced willy nilly, there are conditions.

I think her point is, if it's a marraige that was started with private vows in the woods (as a pp mentioned), then it could be ended just as privately and quickly. I do think we're bound by the laws of the land and that is where I disagree on common law marraiges. Besides the fact that here a common law marraige only comes about if the couple has lived together as man and wife for a certain period of time (I think it's three years?), there's also the matter of how you file for things. I know this sounds so nit-picky, but how are you filing your taxes, how does the government 'see' you? I'm not sure if I'm putting the carraige infront of the horse, but it seems to me that part of respecting those God has put above us is following their steps for certain things, ie getting married by the state.

I just want to clarify what Matthew 18 teaches: Being "put out of the church" does not mean disallowing them to attend the church building. It is a formal acknowledgment that this person, who is living in unrepentant sin, is not a true believer (out of THE church body of believers.) He would certainly be welcome to attend the church, but would be considered an unbeliever. This is the Biblical command for dealing with unrepentant sin. It's not an option, which frankly is the way most American churches interpret it.

 

We all sin, but the true believer is horrified by his sin and repents. Forgiveness is granted graciously to those who are humble and contrite. Those who refuse to repent, after the appropriate Biblical discipline, must be considered an unbeliever.

:iagree: The idea is that they should be treated and seen as one outside of the body. It's not so much expulsion from a building as expulsion from the body. You are told not to eat with those that call themselves brother while being idolotrous, drunkards, exploiters, fornicators, etc.

Wow, really? I'm not being snarky here, just really surprised.

 

Just off the top of my head, other than the Gospels, that's like 2/3 of the New Testament.

 

For the OP, this is tough. Too many churches these days have a real live-and-let-live deal going on with the congregation to keep members. If we all knew when our last days would be, or the end of time for that matter, or even had a glimpse of the justifying power of God, I have a feeling that folks would be cleaning up their acts really quickly -- regardless of what was expedient, financially better, felt good, legal, socially acceptable, or otherwise.

:iagree:

[Sputterduck]

Well said, lionfamily1999! To get a common law marriage, you have to sin first. So I'm guessing God does not like it. Now if someone turns to God after they have been living in sin, do you think God would be okay with a common law marriage? I have no idea what other Christians think about common law marriage. :tongue_smilie:

 

What if you don't have sex until you are established as a common law marriage?

[Peek a Boo]

What if you don't have sex until you are established as a common law marriage?

 

LOL! That's what i was thinking too ;)

 

Another thing to keep in mind:

If you are attempting to establish a common law marriage, you still need evidence to back it up: a common law marriage can certainly be challenged in a court of law. It doesn't take *much* to back it up, but if nobody can corroborate a common law marriage before you stand before the judge, the state might not accept that your marriage started before y'all stood before them offering public testimony, and whoever is challenging you [for whatever reason] may present a strong case that you WEREN't legally married.

 

But i'm still more interested in the spiritual side of the marriage, myself ;)

 

as to how God sees common law marriage? well, what does He think of a legal secular marriage? marriages performed for "wrong" reasons, even tho they are legal? ....but that's a whole nuther discussion.

[Sputterduck]

as to how God sees common law marriage? well, what does He think of a legal secular marriage? marriages performed for "wrong" reasons, even tho they are legal? ....but that's a whole nuther discussion.

 

That is an interesting thing to ponder.

[Peek a Boo]

She doesn't want to be married, he should not be there. I'm pretty sure there's a ton of Proverbs for his situation and illumination of its ultimate end.

 

:iagree:

but I agree with Mungo that she might not realize how easy it is to call themselves married, and/or to simply be spiritually married.

 

I do think we're bound by the laws of the land and that is where I disagree on common law marraiges.

 

a common law marriage IS "a" law of the land. It is a legal option.

Kinda reminds me of the old homeschooling question: "wow! you can DO that?? is it really LEGAL??? do you have to be certified or get a teacher to sign off on stuff??" hee hee....

 

Besides the fact that here a common law marraige only comes about if the couple has lived together as man and wife for a certain period of time (I think it's three years?), there's also the matter of how you file for things. I know this sounds so nit-picky, but how are you filing your taxes, how does the government 'see' you? I'm not sure if I'm putting the carraige infront of the horse, but it seems to me that part of respecting those God has put above us is following their steps for certain things, ie getting married by the state.

 

 

If i was considering a common law process, i would find out what time requirements were in place, set up a joint checking account, print up business cards and address labels, send out emails, and do anything else in non-legal ways that would allow me to express the idea of being Mr. and Mrs.

Those receipts and correspondence would help establish a timeline. Once that timeline was met, I'd start filing taxes and other legal stuff as married and have plenty of evidence to back it up.

 

but that's just me ;)

note: no sex involved, lol.

 

or plan B:

have a spiritual wedding ceremony [public or private imnsho] at the beginning of setting up your timeline and you are not having SinfulSex ;)

Edited December 8, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[TXMary2]

 

 

 

I feel sorry for both of them. She must have been severely hurt and controlled in a former relationship to have such animosity toward any appearance of marriage.

 

 

Not at all. Her marriage to my father was fine, but he passed away. I asked her today why she doesn't want to be legally married to her bf and she said, "His credit sucks" and basically hers is perfect. She has no desire to change anything to please the church and SHE doesn't see anything wrong with living together. It is the bf and his "newfound christianity causing all the problems." (her words)

[kalanamak]

 

Another solution would be for him to propose to her - that is if your Mom would accept that.

 

This could interfere with income. I've known many an elderly couple who "lived in sin". One laughed at the term and said "it doesn't feel very sinful". They were both in their late 80's and very sweet.

 

I don't know what I'd do, and I'm not religious, but I will note it is stuff like this that made hubby give up on organized religion, after 50 years of faithful attendance, tithing, going door to door to spread the word, etc. You are not alone if finding it out of line.

[Peek a Boo]

I asked her today why she doesn't want to be legally married to her bf and she said, "His credit sucks" and basically hers is perfect. She has no desire to change anything to please the church and SHE doesn't see anything wrong with living together. It is the bf and his "newfound christianity causing all the problems." (her words)

 

so she doesn't care about pleasing HIM, doesn't care that HE feels it is wrong, just worried about her credit....

 

organized religion aside, I'd be encouraging HIM to not only find another church, but another means of emotional support too.

[TXMary2]

so she doesn't care about pleasing HIM, doesn't care that HE feels it is wrong, just worried about her credit....

 

organized religion aside, I'd be encouraging HIM to not only find another church, but another means of emotional support too.

 

It isn't so cut and dry. Prior to her being disabled she financially supported him for 12 years. They each have their roles and things they do for each other, it isn't a one sided relationship. He has MS and one day will die so I don't blame her for not wanting his credit attached to her. Anyway, I think this thread has run its course. He will be finding a church that won't throw him out the front door for staying with my mother and he will continue to beg her to marry him. Again, I understand churches need to address sin, but I think the pastor made a mistake by being so harsh and intrusive.

[Peek a Boo]

It isn't so cut and dry. Prior to her being disabled she financially supported him for 12 years. They each have their roles and things they do for each other, it isn't a one sided relationship. He has MS and one day will die so I don't blame her for not wanting his credit attached to her. Anyway, I think this thread has run its course. He will be finding a church that won't throw him out the front door for staying with my mother and he will continue to beg her to marry him. Again, I understand churches need to address sin, but I think the pastor made a mistake by being so harsh and intrusive.

oh, I'm sure it's not so cut n dried. But her blatant dismissal of his faith and blaming of "the church" are pretty telling, regardless what church he attends.

 

i wish them luck tho, and hope they find a situation that honors everyone.

[Erica in PA]

NM

Edited December 9, 2009 by Erica in PA