Laurie4b Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) I started this thread because I have loved ones associated with Vision Forum whom I'm concerned about. I asked for info on teachings. I am sorry to see the name calling, etc. I really do not want slander or mud-slinging. I was wanting information. I did read both sides of the public falling out with a former member of the church. I don't have a way of sorting through that from afar. Edited November 24, 2009 by Laurie4b1 This thread has devolved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchfire Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Some might disagree with my assessment, but I think Kathryn Joyce's Quiverfull does a decent job of explaining the fundamental beliefs of Vision Forum. (Ironically, we also have gotten their catalogue. Ironic because I'm about as opposite as you can get from them and still be a Christian. I showed it to my dh and we had a... well, not a laugh, but an extended session of being agog.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I believe they are some of the most dangerous out there, even worse than the Pearls. Do a google search for Douglas Phillips and Boerne Christian Assembly. The Pearls actually did a series of articles lambasting this extreme form of patriarchy that is taught by this group (as it applies to adult children.) Scary stuff (for the women involved anyway.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I believe they are some of the most dangerous out there, even worse than the Pearls. Do a google search for Douglas Phillips and Boerne Christian Assembly. The Pearls actually did a series of articles lambasting this extreme form of patriarchy that is taught by this group (as it applies to adult children.) Scary stuff (for the women involved anyway.) I didn't know it could get any worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Enough to know that I won't support them in any way financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I won't order anything from them because I don't want to support them. We still get their catalog, although I haven't ordered anything in years. They do have some cool boy toys, so when my son sees something he "must have", I try to source it somewhere else or he goes without. My son (who is 13) thinks it's hilarious to read about the reading & video materials they sell. He can recognize the fallacies in many of their claims just by reading their catalog. His latest source of amusement was the "Harvard MBA" they claim to offer. It's a training package that purports to provide the viewer with an education equivalent to a Harvard MBA. But, as my son pointed out, at the end of it YOU DON'T HAVE A HARVARD MBA! Try taking that to your job interview. You can find plenty of info on them if you search "doug phillips controversy" or similar terms. Here's one site with some links. links Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 His latest source of amusement was the "Harvard MBA" they claim to offer. It's a training package that purports to provide the viewer with an education equivalent to a Harvard MBA. But, as my son pointed out, at the end of it YOU DON'T HAVE A HARVARD MBA! Try taking that to your job interview. I'm married to someone with a Harvard MBA and let's just say that the value of the degree is not the coursework. My DH says he's learned a zillion times more about finance from the studying he's done on his own to prepare for the Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) exam. Don't forget that most of the guys responsible for Enron, AIG, those mortgage credit default swaps, etc. were Harvard MBA's :ack2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I'm married to someone with a Harvard MBA and let's just say that the value of the degree is not the coursework. My DH says he's learned a zillion times more about finance from the studying he's done on his own to prepare for the Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) exam. Don't forget that most of the guys responsible for Enron, AIG, those mortgage credit default swaps, etc. were Harvard MBA's :ack2: That was my son's point...the value of the Harvard MBA (its prestige) can't be mimicked by a video course, even if that video course taught you MORE than you'd learn as a Harvard student. As to your point about Enron, etc...it's too bad getting an MBA, from anywhere, doesn't automatically confer ethics on someone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bess Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Simply put, the Vision Forum folks are Christian Reconstructionists (Dominion Theology/Theonomy). They are fans of Rushdoony's book "Institutes of Biblical Law". This drives all that they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smrtmama Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 They're terrifying, controlling, misogynistic, and did I mention terrifying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 This is very interesting, because I am really quite ignorant of things like this. I, too, have been reading Vyckie's blog for the past couple of days. I have gotten the Vision Forum catalog in the past--I'm not sure why, I've never ordered from them. I've looked through it enough to know that their beliefs are quite dissimilar to mine (they'd probably call me a Satan-worshiper, actually), but I don't have a good handle on specific beliefs. For example I really have no idea what "Christian Reconstructionists (Dominion Theology/Theonomy)" means. Conservative Protestants always seem to come up with 5 more beliefs I've never heard of every time I think I've got some idea of what's going on. So I have no clue why Vision Forum would be terrifying and would appreciate an explanation if someone wouldn't mind providing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Wow. They have some really super cool stuff. I am having to restrain myself form ordering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I think this is a bit overboard. We knew them years ago and I'm sure their present family is lovely. The whole degree thing, is true, as long as you're only working for yourself. You notice that the incentive for thinking the plan is good... is the instructor's degree:-) So, it goes overboard in thinking that their schooling plan is worthy? Perhaps. BUT, they really are very good people and I hate to see them torn apart by people that don't know them. And... Doug lived the part he preached about waiting till parent's were in agreement with their marriage.... Carrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Christian Reconstructionists want to turn the U.S. government into a theocracy - have Old Testament law be the law of the land. But they want to do it peaceably, through the established political process (that's a plus, I guess). They believe that, deep down, most Americans truly want it - because even if they refuse to admit it, they know it to be the "right" way, and so will accept it when the Reconstructionists succeed in getting it all passed. Can't fault their optimism, anyway - even if their grasp on reality is a bit shaky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 :iagree: While I don't personally know the Phillips, I have personally known some families who attend their church. The families are extremely kind, humble, and would bend over backwards to help you. (One family did just that for us once.) My husband worked with one of the deacons of the Boerne Christian Assembly, and he was one of the nicest men you would ever meet. I don't think it's fair for people who really don't know the persons involved to spout off opinions. They may be the nicest people in the world - you're right that I do not know them or the church personally. I do know alot about their theology, though, through the things *they* have published. My problem is with those things, not their personalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirtymomma Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 This woman's story leads me to believe the Phillips are not very nice people, and I definitely think their theology is whacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I believe they are some of the most dangerous out there, even worse than the Pearls. Do a google search for Douglas Phillips and Boerne Christian Assembly. The Pearls actually did a series of articles lambasting this extreme form of patriarchy that is taught by this group (as it applies to adult children.) Scary stuff (for the women involved anyway.) Wow, just spent an hour of my life following the links out from the Douglas Phillips links. Wow. Not much more I can say. Glad I left "organized" religion. Glad I saw upclose the problems with it when I was young (pastor's kid). Glad I never got sucked into one of those "churches." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 And I can understand and respect differences of opinion on theology. What I can't understand is the use of adjectives such as "dangerous", "terrifying", "controlling", or "misogynistic". Seriously, if you knew these people you would laugh at such absurdity. The families I personally know are very meek and humble, living to serve the Lord. I will stand by my use of "dangerous" for Douglas Phillips himself. I don't know any of the families in his church (and my suggestion that people search for his church name was in regards to *his* behavior.) Teaching women that to treat an ectopic pregnancy is akin to throwing your child to the sharks so they will not eat you is more than just dangerous! He also (in that same issue) misrepresents the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding medical treatments that indirectly involving the death of the unborn child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 This woman's story leads me to believe the Phillips are not very nice people, and I definitely think their theology is whacked. When did Cheryl become a lesbian? Last I knew (and I communicated with her directly over her forum and parenting paradigms), she was married to a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 While I don't personally know the Phillips, I have personally known some families who attend their church. The families are extremely kind, humble, and would bend over backwards to help you. (One family did just that for us once.) My husband worked with one of the deacons of the Boerne Christian Assembly, and he was one of the nicest men you would ever meet. I don't think it's fair for people who really don't know the persons involved to spout off opinions.I don't know the Phillips or any of the Vision Forum people personally. They probably are very nice people who are striving to spread what they see as truth as best they can. But that doesn't change the fact they are *wrong*. Their theology is really messed up and has ruined people's lives, even if that theology was promoted and practiced with the best of intentions. Beliefs have consequences, and wrong beliefs have negative ones. Being silent is not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirtymomma Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 When did Cheryl become a lesbian? Last I knew (and I communicated with her directly over her forum and parenting paradigms), she was married to a man. Oh, I don't know about Cheryl. I meant Jen's story. That just happened to be the latest post on her blog. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Do a google search and you might be able to sort it out. I don't think she really is, but rather called that. The quote on the blog is from Doug Phillips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Please, please, PLEASE let's not rehash the whole Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff controversy. Personally I have problems with how BOTH sides behaved during it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Well God bless your extended family, Laurie. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Doug Phillips and his ministry, and am thankful for the influence his teachings have had on dh and me. We have had extended family and some friends express concern over some decisions we have made: having more than two dc :svengo:, homeschool through high school :svengo::svengo:, encourage our dc to pursue courtship over casual dating :svengo::svengo::svengo:, and the list goes on. What can I say? We're happy with the decisions we have made,truly feel we are following God's leading, and are thankful for the grace He has bestowed on Vision Forum. Fortunately, our family and (most) of our friends respect us enough to allow for differences. We have had to break relationship with some people who felt the need to be critical but then didn't like it when dh turned the tables on them, go figure :rolleyes:. As for our family, they try not to roll their eyes at my girls in skirts, and we try not to comment on their daughter's boozin' it up at college (facebook reveals all!) and we all get along just fine. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlifemom Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Wow! My heart is breaking and I have no idea who is telling the truth. I guess only God knows the real truth.:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Subbing, because I have stuff to say from both ends later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 They're terrifying, controlling, misogynistic, and did I mention terrifying? Oh Brother...If you don't like super-Christians...fine. Not my cuppa tea either...BUT Terrifying...controlling??? LOL....You sound awfully extreme...:rolleyes: Just don't buy any of their cr@p... Faithe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I don't know the Phillips or any of the Vision Forum people personally. They probably are very nice people who are striving to spread what they see as truth as best they can. But that doesn't change the fact they are *wrong*. Their theology is really messed up and has ruined people's lives, even if that theology was promoted and practiced with the best of intentions. Beliefs have consequences, and wrong beliefs have negative ones. Being silent is not an option. I think people are really good at ruining their own lives...and even when someone has all the best intentions...some extreme personalities need to take things to the nth degree....That is not Doug Phillip's fault. He has a right to speak and teach...especially in this country where the ALCU will go to bat for Nazi youth's right to march or Gay Pride Day. Being silent is not an option. We all have a right to our own stinky opinions...however, why do so many want the opposing view to be silenced?? What ever happened to personal responsiblity and wisdom and discernment. SHHHEEEEESH!!!!! If the guy is a charlatan....don't listen to him. If the guy is a quack....don't buy his stuff.... If the guy is dangerous...don't go there. When are people going to start taking responsiblility for their own actions?? OY VEY!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Well God bless your extended family, Laurie.I have a tremendous amount of respect for Doug Phillips and his ministry, and am thankful for the influence his teachings have had on dh and me. We have had extended family and some friends express concern over some decisions we have made: having more than two dc :svengo:, homeschool through high school :svengo::svengo:, encourage our dc to pursue courtship over casual dating :svengo::svengo::svengo:, and the list goes on. What can I say? We're happy with the decisions we have made,truly feel we are following God's leading, and are thankful for the grace He has bestowed on Vision Forum. Fortunately, our family and (most) of our friends respect us enough to allow for differences. We have had to break relationship with some people who felt the need to be critical but then didn't like it when dh turned the tables on them, go figure :rolleyes:. As for our family, they try not to roll their eyes at my girls in skirts, and we try not to comment on their daughter's boozin' it up at college (facebook reveals all!) and we all get along just fine. :D That's not the level of things I'm concerned about. Have you been directly involved or just through their materials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 They're terrifying, controlling, misogynistic, and did I mention terrifying? This is just name-calling. Do you have a basis for what you're saying? I was looking for information. I love these extended family members and respect a lot of what they do. Do you have first hand information or links? Have you ever read any of their material or had an interaction with Phillips or his close associates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 That's not the level of things I'm concerned about. Have you been directly involved or just through their materials? Dh considers Doug a personal friend. Not sure what you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Subbing, because I have stuff to say from both ends later. I would like to hear things from both sides. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) I think people are really good at ruining their own lives...and even when someone has all the best intentions...some extreme personalities need to take things to the nth degree....That is not Doug Phillip's fault. He has a right to speak and teach...especially in this country where the ALCU will go to bat for Nazi youth's right to march or Gay Pride Day. Being silent is not an option. We all have a right to our own stinky opinions...however, why do so many want the opposing view to be silenced?? What ever happened to personal responsiblity and wisdom and discernment. SHHHEEEEESH!!!!! If the guy is a charlatan....don't listen to him. If the guy is a quack....don't buy his stuff.... If the guy is dangerous...don't go there. When are people going to start taking responsiblility for their own actions?? OY VEY!!!! Oh, I believe and stand for his right to say and do whatever he wants. That same freedom makes it my responsibility to stand up and say that what he teaches is dangerous to Christianity as a whole. I have a large family. I plan to homeschool through high school. I am a conservative Christian (well, Vision Forum wouldn't think so.:tongue_smilie:) I don't want my children to "casually date." My dh is the head of our home (again, they wouldn't think so because it is different than patriarchy for sure!) This isn't about those things. And if he were some cult guy in Idaho with a small following who simply wanted to dress our daughters in prairie dresses, I would roll my eyes and move on. He isn't, though. There is a HUGE following, there is a political party - all wrapped up together. He teaches things about history that simply aren't true. It's serious trouble wrapped up in a pretty package and very convincing to those who are disenfranchised by the current political and cultural situations. So, I feel it is my responsibility as a Christian to warn others. No one has to listen to me either.:D ETA: I removed my comment about the college because I had my Doug's mixed up again. Sorry! Edited November 24, 2009 by Renee in FL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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