Ungrateful children.

[Haiku]

At McD's: we were going to order 10 nuggets to share. They howled and whined because they wanted a happy meal for the toy.

 

"Oh, I am sorry that you don't appreciate that I brought you to McD's. We'll be going home now to eat peanut butter sandwiches."

 

When we go to stores, they start to beg for everything they see and don't seem to understand why they can't have everything.

 

"Oh, well, I guess from now on I will have to do the shopping by myself. We'll be going home now, and when Daddy gets home I'll come back and shop."

 

Mom-mom likes to take them out to eat, and recently they've been very demanding about what they want.

 

"Wow, it's a shame that you can't have nice time eating out wit Grandma. I guess we'll have to go home now, because we can't stay here and be so rude to Grandma."

 

You can ask/tell them to stop being whiny and demanding every time it happens, which is exhausting you and making you responsible for the behavior, or they can learn that whining and being demanding put an immediate end to the activity, which makes them responsible for the behavior.

 

Tara

[Harriet Vane]

"Oh, I am sorry that you don't appreciate that I brought you to McD's. We'll be going home now to eat peanut butter sandwiches."

 

 

 

"Oh, well, I guess from now on I will have to do the shopping by myself. We'll be going home now, and when Daddy gets home I'll come back and shop."

 

 

 

"Wow, it's a shame that you can't have nice time eating out wit Grandma. I guess we'll have to go home now, because we can't stay here and be so rude to Grandma."

 

You can ask/tell them to stop being whiny and demanding every time it happens, which is exhausting you and making you responsible for the behavior, or they can learn that whining and being demanding put an immediate end to the activity, which makes them responsible for the behavior.

 

Tara

 

:iagree: I like your style.

[Chris in VA]

Just wanted to offer two ideas--

A technique I learned in STEP (Systematic parenting class) is to say something like, "Oh, wouldn't it be nice if you could have that? Wouldn't it be great to have a (giant one, all you wanted, candy every day, a million pieces, etc--go extreme)? Sometimes I wish we could do that. That would be fun, wouldn't it?" It lets the child know you understand their desire and can feel the depth of it, too. But you still hold firm with your "no".

 

The other thing is, sometimes I offer grace. An unexpected gift is really nice. I'll even say, no, we can't today, but watch out! You know, when you least expect it, something fun may happen! It's said cheerfully, still acknowledging the depth of the emotion the littles are feeling when they whine.

 

I sometimes have to tell my child that it IS ok to ask for what she wants, as she occasionally goes to the opposite extreme of putting on a happy face and accepting what she really doesn't want. That may sound like a good thing, but she is not really being grateful, she's just trying hard to be obedient and stuffing her feelings in the process. I believe it is perfectly ok to have preferences, to really want something, and to ask. It's the whining when you don't get that's the problem, but I do want to hear what she wants. She does know to be polite when she receives a gift, tho.

[Sasha]

For me, setting expectations (mine and theirs) up front really helps. I let the kiddos know when it's a happy meal day and when it's just a meal day before we go into the restaurant. If we are shopping I let them know if they are allowed to pick out a treat (and the kind or $ amount) or not.

 

We also rehearse the "rules" of any place we are getting ready to enter... sit quietly, walk with me, no running, etc...

 

Knowing we are all on the same page helps head off the whines.

 

This. Having fair expectations helps me a lot too. If *I* feel cranky and whiny after doing a lot of errands (or having a late lunch, or whathaveyou) then I can certainly not expect an 8 year old to feel cheerful. Not saying that your expectations are wrong, just that sometimes I find myself asking too much of everyone, including myself, and it sets us up for conflict.

[Sasha]

Mom-mom likes to take them out to eat, and recently they've been very demanding about what they want.

 

I don't mean to sound dense, but I'm not sure I understand. When I go to a restaurant I order what I want. My MIL loves buffets. If she chooses the restaurant she'll be picking something with a buffet. Generally I don't care for buffets so I order off the menu. Am I being "very demanding" about what I choose to eat? It's my food. I know what I'm hungry for.

 

Now, surely I'm not excusing a rude tone of voice or a failure to use manners, but sometimes it seems like grown-ups (particularly older grownups, IME) have one set of standards for children and one (ironically, always one that is more lax) for adults.

 

I've certainly seen adults that expect kids to eat what is placed before them, without regard to their dietary likes and dislikes. I find that to be more rude than a kid that is so ungrateful as to say, "I don't want any broccoli."

 

(Again, not saying that the above is the situation described by the poster, but it's something I've noticed and that irks me. I think sometimes adults take control of children to absurd levels)

[BabyBre]

My boys are 4 and 7 and are starting to become ungrateful and demanding.

 

For example:

 

At McD's: we were going to order 10 nuggets to share. They howled and whined because they wanted a happy meal for the toy.

 

For example:

 

When we go to stores, they start to beg for everything they see and don't seem to understand why they can't have everything.

 

For example:

 

Mom-mom likes to take them out to eat, and recently they've been very demanding about what they want. Happy meals and ice cream sundaes, money for the candy machine, and getting slightly obnoxious about it, until I step in and tell them to knock it off.

 

I can speak firmly to them and stop them from asking and I can demand that they stop whining and they will comply. But I want it to go beyond that. I want to get to the root of the problem and stop them from feeling so entitled to things and to be more content with what they have.

 

This has been happening only recently (past month or so). They haven't always been this whiny and demanding for things. I don't think we've changed anything in our household, so I'm not sure where it's coming from.

 

Any suggestions on how to get kids to be content with what they have?

 

 

It could just be one has arrived at the age where he's comfortable pushing that limit and the other is following suit.

 

But at any rate, make sure they don't get anything. If they're driven by material things, turn it into a learning opportunity. Make sure you buy them nothing, that if they want something they need to spend their allowances on it.

 

Another approach is when one whines for something and the other asks sweetly, the sweet one gets it and the whiny one gets to watch him enjoy it. If that sounds or feels mean, no one said parenting would be a picnic. This is how kids learn, and it's the painful lessons that stick the best.

 

Somewhere along the way, they learned that whining is more effective than asking sweetly for what they want, too.

[LibraryLover]

I don't mean to sound dense, but I'm not sure I understand. When I go to a restaurant I order what I want. My MIL loves buffets. If she chooses the restaurant she'll be picking something with a buffet. Generally I don't care for buffets so I order off the menu. Am I being "very demanding" about what I choose to eat? It's my food. I know what I'm hungry for.

 

Now, surely I'm not excusing a rude tone of voice or a failure to use manners, but sometimes it seems like grown-ups (particularly older grownups, IME) have one set of standards for children and one (ironically, always one that is more lax) for adults.

 

I've certainly seen adults that expect kids to eat what is placed before them, without regard to their dietary likes and dislikes. I find that to be more rude than a kid that is so ungrateful as to say, "I don't want any broccoli."

 

(Again, not saying that the above is the situation described by the poster, but it's something I've noticed and that irks me. I think sometimes adults take control of children to absurd levels)

 

 

I agree. We do often talk about financial parameters in ordering, which would go for adults as well. Why does Mommy , or just Daddy get the lobster, but the kids have to order what the parents want, or order the same old same old from the terrible children's menu? Again? One doesn't go to a restuarant to order food they don't like.

 

This whole thread is rather upsetting.

[BabyBre]

"Oh, I am sorry that you don't appreciate that I brought you to McD's. We'll be going home now to eat peanut butter sandwiches."

 

 

 

"Oh, well, I guess from now on I will have to do the shopping by myself. We'll be going home now, and when Daddy gets home I'll come back and shop."

 

 

 

"Wow, it's a shame that you can't have nice time eating out wit Grandma. I guess we'll have to go home now, because we can't stay here and be so rude to Grandma."

 

You can ask/tell them to stop being whiny and demanding every time it happens, which is exhausting you and making you responsible for the behavior, or they can learn that whining and being demanding put an immediate end to the activity, which makes them responsible for the behavior.

 

Tara

 

 

:iagree: That's Love and Logic if I've ever heard it!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Love-Logic-Updated-Expanded/dp/1576839540

[BabyBre]

I have two things:

 

The first, which I actually started quite young (I have a nasty habit of introducing concepts too early), was to ask kid "where is the lie in this advertisement?" Every marketing campaign has a lie - where is it? It became a game, and now wherever we go, he doesn't really look at "things" as "hey, I want that" but rather "how are 'they' trying to get me to want that?" It pretty much eliminated whining.

 

The second was told to me by a man I knew who came from a large family. There were, I think, 9 or 11 kids in his family, and his mom was raising them all by herself. She (obviously) had to run an extremely tight ship. She had (according to him) very loving but inflexible rules about how the family would operate. This was for their safety and security. They had very little money, and she had to make sure that everyone had "enough".

 

So this is how it "went": the first time one of the kids blatantly disobeyed her, she took their favorite toy outside to the sidewalk and smashed it to smithereens with a baseball bat in front of the kid.

 

He said not a single one of them ever stepped out of line again, though each kid had to learn the lesson for themselves (every kid thought it couldn't possibly happen to them :glare:).

 

******

 

What I found interesting about this story was that, in relaying it to someone a year or so ago (I personally think it is a fabulous story), the parent exclaimed "but you can't just DO that! What if it was something expensive, like a PS2 or something?"

 

I just shook my head. They were never going to "get" it, and their kid was already a brat.

 

 

a

 

 

I LOVE both of these stories! I think teaching kids to look at advertising more objectively teaches them FAR more than just that. What a fabulous way to a) reduce whining, and b) teach children to think for themselves. I love it.

 

Your second story and the reaction of the parent you told it to is a prime example of why kids are so bratty these days. They have far too much stuff that even the parents feel the kids are entitled to! The sooner we begin to realize that the cost of a PS2 may just be the price we have to pay to solidly teach a very valuable lesson, the better off we as a society will be. The value of that lesson learned at an early age far outweighs the value of the game system, and our job as parents is to teach those lessons, not provide video games.

 

My kids are entitled to food, shelter, clothing, education, and a safe and loving environment, all of which I choose in what manner to provide. Anything beyond that (and there is plenty beyond that - toys, TV, video games, computer time, playdates, candy, eating out, etc.) is a luxury, a gift, or a privledge earned through work or good behavior that's fully expected of them. I'm not cold and heartless. If money allows and they've met behavior expectations (which is the majority of the time) we'll study the subject of their choice, or they'll get candy at the store, or they get to pick the movie or where we go for dinner, but moderation is a constantly observed theme in our house.

 

The bottom line is I'm the parent, and this family is not a democracy.

[Haiku]

 

This whole thread is rather upsetting.

 

I didn't read anything into this thread about situations analogous to mom and dad getting the lobster and junior getting the crummy mac-and-cheese from the kids' menu. To me, the thread was about mom and dad taking the kids to do something and the kids being demanding and whiny. Why should kids think that they should get a treat on every shopping trip? Why should kids be ungrateful when mom offers to buy them something from McD's? Why should kids get to be rude to Grandma? I know that there are some parents who believe kids should basically sit down and shut up and put up with what they get, and that is one extreme, but the other extreme (which I observe frequently) is that some parents think it's their job to somehow make it up to kids for not being adults. I don't buy into that.

 

Tara

[lionfamily1999]

I agree. We do often talk about financial parameters in ordering, which would go for adults as well. Why does Mommy , or just Daddy get the lobster, but the kids have to order what the parents want, or order the same old same old from the terrible children's menu? Again? One doesn't go to a restuarant to order food they don't like.

 

This whole thread is rather upsetting.

Ime, and as I explain to my children, the reason they only get some choices, whereas Mom or Dad have seemingly endless choices, is because Mom and Dad are the ones paying. If someone takes me out to lunch I try to be considerate of their wallet as well as pleasing to my own pallet.

I've certainly seen adults that expect kids to eat what is placed before them, without regard to their dietary likes and dislikes. I find that to be more rude than a kid that is so ungrateful as to say, "I don't want any broccoli."

It's rude to refuse to even try food that another person has made for you. Few people I know run a diner in their kitchen. You either eat what's made or you don't eat. As for forcing kids to eat healthy food, it's teaching them that even if they hate veggies they HAVE to eat them, because it's part of a balanced diet. I eat foods I'm not a fan of (most of them are green), because they are good for me. If I'm at someone else's home I will eat what they cook, because they were kind enough to do so and it would be rude to do otherwise.

[abbeyej]

I agree. We do often talk about financial parameters in ordering, which would go for adults as well. Why does Mommy , or just Daddy get the lobster, but the kids have to order what the parents want, or order the same old same old from the terrible children's menu? Again? One doesn't go to a restuarant to order food they don't like.

 

This whole thread is rather upsetting.

 

I don't think that's what any of us were saying. When I go out, I order what I want within certain parameters. Various things come into play: finances, healthful options, how much I can actually eat... And the parameters for my kids are similar, if sometimes they may play out differently than mine. And no one here has mentioned parents getting lavish meals, etc, while the children have something meager. !!!

 

What we're saying is that when kids are given something special (a trip to McDonald's, even if it's just for everyone to have a little snack, not a huge meal), they should be thankful and polite, not throwing a tantrum because they wanted their chicken nuggets to come with a cheap plastic toy and a soft drink. That children should be able to recognize that something looks like fun to have, but that we can't (any of us!) always have what we want, and that we should be grateful for the things that we do have.

 

I'm not sure what adults you're running into who indulge themselves while denying their children. I don't think I know anyone who does that. Most of us make many sacrifices so that our children have good food, clothing, extra curricular activities, books, rides to fun and educational events... Often at the sacrifice of things we parents might enjoy. I see no reason why children should be rewarded and coddled for demanding *more* when someone is trying to do something nice for them.

[Annabel Lee]

I'd love to know how to extinguish this behavior too b/c it is running rampant in our home. And trust me...my kids do NOT get what they want when they whine, beg, yell, cry, etc...EVER. My question is this: What do you do when you have 7 children and most of them are behaving quite well, but the others are complaining? Do you make everyone miss out b/c of the behavior of one? Seems unfair. Or, do you make the one misbehaving suffer by watching everyone else eat, say, McD's while they have nothing b/c of their whining? We always have this problem. We'll be on our way somewhere and somebody acts up. I "want" to turn the van around and go home, but do not want to make all the kids who are behaving suffer the punishment. How do you all handle this?

 

I don't think that's unfair; the child was misbehaving and would have a (natural) consequence. If there's another adult or an older child, once they're done eating they could take the child to the car to wait for everyone else.

 

The rule in my house is if you start begging for something (after already receiving an answer) you get the OPPOSITE of what you're asking for. Beg me for a TV show I already said no to? Then lose TV privilidge for (x) amount of time. That doesn't address the whining in the 1st place though. I used to give my kids a "briefing" before going into stores - "Here's the list. We're here only to get things that are on the list. I'm telling you NOW, do not ask me for anything else." It worked well for a long while.

 

To help get to the root of the greed and ingratitude, I've been thinking I should take my kids to the Food Bank or local soup kitchen and help serve meals. There are other volunteer opportunities we could take part in where the kids would see how little others have in contrast to themselves and grow in compassion & desire to help (hopefully this would morph into an unselfish heart of giving over time).

[LibraryLover]

I should not get involved in these sorts of discussions. I don't agree with punitive parenting. At all. In any way.

[Haiku]

I don't agree with punitive parenting. At all. In any way.

 

At McD's: we were going to order 10 nuggets to share.

 

I went back and read the OP, trying to understand where the lobster dinner thing came in. The OP stated that we were going to get 10 nuggets to share. She didn't say, "I was going to get a Big Mac, large fries, a soda, and an apple pie, and the kids had to share some nuggets." How is it punitive parenting to expect your kids to not be whiny and rude when you offer to get them a snack?

 

Tara

[LibraryLover]

I went back and read the OP, trying to understand where the lobster dinner thing came in. The OP stated that we were going to get 10 nuggets to share. She didn't say, "I was going to bet a Big Mac, large fries, a soda, and an apple pie, and the kids had to share some nuggets." How is it punitive parenting to expect your kids to not be whiny and rude when you offer to get them a snack?

 

Tara

 

 

As you know, once you get a few posts on a thread, there is more than just the initial post to discuss.

 

Anyway, I am not surprised that a lot of folks don't notice the punitve and disrespectful narrative of this thread.

Edited November 16, 2009 by LibraryLover

[hillfarm]

IMO, my occasional forays into punitive parenting are inspired by the fact that life will offer my dd plenty of punitive moments, most of which will be much more severe than I would ever dream of being, if I do not help her to understand her boundaries and the proper way of moving through our world. Talk is cheap. And in so very many cases I have observed, also ineffective. I want to teach my dd that there are positive and negative consequences that she can expect to be related to her behaviors. I do so with a loss of privileges or the occasional harsh word. Much better than the consequences that life will give her if she continues forward with the mistaken belief that she is a princess whose every wish will be fulfilled. Better my kindly smack on her hand than life's hard smack in her face. Because saying, "No, no sweetie, we mustn't throw a blue-faced, floor rolling tantrum because you can't have what you want" just doesn't cut it. Perhaps my child is particularly difficult, but I doubt it.

 

Anyway, regarding the OP...

Dh and I have had a similar discussion regarding the problem of Grandma being overly indulgent and dd beginning to expect things from her rather than to be greatful for them. On one hand, such behavior is unacceptable, but OTOH, it is inevitable. Dd's experience is that every single time she has gone to the store with Grandma, she will receive a treat. She would have to be less than bright to have not figured that out.

 

So we sat dd down and acknowledged that fact. But we also discussed the fact that we would only allow the gift parade to continue as long as dd showed us that she could control herself and would not demand more than Grandma chose to give and that if for some reason the expected did not happen that dd would handle that situation gracefully. We added that dh and I would not be following the same path, and that trying to force us to do so would only end in problems. At the age of 8, she seemed able to grasp these concepts and we have not had any problems since.

 

A wise, elderly relative of dh's once told me that children are not born spoiled. We either make them so or else allow them to become so. It is hard to pick our way through these issues in our land of affluence. I try to keep my guiding principle based on the fact that, Lord willing, dd will be an adult much longer than she will be a child. If a momentary bit of discipline during childhood will help her to have a more satisfying and healthy adulthood, I consider the time well spent.

[BabyBre]

 

Anyway, I am not surprised that a lot of folks don't notice the punitve and disrespectful narrative of this thread.

 

 

Disrespectful to whom? Our children?

[LibraryLover]

I know I must be crazy to keep posting. I know I am. :001_huh:

 

My kids are nearly 21, 17, almost 16, and 10. They are generous and a pleasure to be around. They are kind to each other, and not estranged from their parents. They communicate. Is every day a picnic? No. But their father and I have never once struck them or 'smacked a hand'. They did not need to feel pain or have to be shamed into doing the 'right thing'. My children are not treated as royality; they are treated as the human beings they are.

 

And no, my children are not all easy. And they weren't all born to me, even.

 

 

 

IMO, my occasional forays into punitive parenting are inspired by the fact that life will offer my dd plenty of punitive moments, most of which will be much more severe than I would ever dream of being, if I do not help her to understand her boundaries and the proper way of moving through our world. Talk is cheap. And in so very many cases I have observed, also ineffective. I want to teach my dd that there are positive and negative consequences that she can expect to be related to her behaviors. I do so with a loss of privileges or the occasional harsh word. Much better than the consequences that life will give her if she continues forward with the mistaken belief that she is a princess whose every wish will be fulfilled. Better my kindly smack on her hand than life's hard smack in her face. Because saying, "No, no sweetie, we mustn't throw a blue-faced, floor rolling tantrum because you can't have what you want" just doesn't cut it. Perhaps my child is particularly difficult, but I doubt it.

[hillfarm]

Laurie, how did you prepare your children to handle situations later on in life when a boss, coworker, or even an event handed them negative consequences based on their behaviors? Unfortunately we all go through spells of being selfish or just a jerk sometimes. How do they deal with it when they bring negative consequences down upon themselves?

 

(Not being critical, just curious and always on the lookout for new information)

[rafiki]

.

[LibraryLover]

Laurie, how did you prepare your children to handle situations later on in life when a boss, coworker, or even an event handed them negative consequences based on their behaviors? Unfortunately we all go through spells of being selfish or just a jerk sometimes. How do they deal with it when they bring negative consequences down upon themselves?

 

(Not being critical, just curious and always on the lookout for new information)

 

 

I am curious -- do you think punishing or hitting children prepares them for mistakes they will make as they experience life and relationships in the work place?

 

My children are very introspective and thoughtful. I think these nurtured attributes serve them well, now and always. We've always actively encouraged them to discuss and think, and none have anger or impulse issues. I don't see that changing for them...outside of something catastrophic--accident or biological changes etc.

[hillfarm]

Michele, dh and I are not so concerned about setting a boundary in this particular area with my mother. Her indulgences for dd are generally around $5 or less, and occur only once or twice a month. For a lot of reasons, gift giving is my mother's way of showing love to others. I am not interested in depriving her of one of the few ways in which she can relate to her granddd. $10 per month will not warp dd for life, as long as we can work to teach her the things I mentioned previously.

 

IMO, expectation is something that develops based on our experiences. Dd has come to expect a gift from Grandma. There is nothing wrong with that expectation, which is based on her experiences. The problem would be if dd begins to demand more expensive gifts, gifts from other stores they are not visiting, throws a tantrum if for some reason Grandma doesn't buy her a gift, or if dd is ungrateful for the gifts she receives. She often comes home and says that she didn't really want the particular item Grandma insisted on buying but that she accepted it with thanks because she knew it was important to Grandma. She realizes that sometimes gift giving is more important to the giver than to the receiver. For a paltry $10 per month, I am not willing to take away the pleasure my mother gets from treating her granddd. (dd accumulates these not-so-special gifts and donates them to the church's various children's ministries)

[LibraryLover]

My MIL is the one always handing my kids money. I know they do not expect that from anyone else. Ever. They don't even expect it from her, and have often told her they haven't spent the money from the last visit. It's what she does, and that's that.

 

My 10 yr old has asked for two things for Christmas-- 2 Mad Lib books. She loves the Egyptian Playmobil but said "I know that 's expensive and you have to pay for N's college". I told her she will get presents, no matter if she has a big brother in college.

 

 

 

Michele, dh and I are not so concerned about setting a boundary in this particular area with my mother. Her indulgences for dd are generally around $5 or less, and occur only once or twice a month. For a lot of reasons, gift giving is my mother's way of showing love to others. I am not interested in depriving her of one of the few ways in which she can relate to her granddd. $10 per month will not warp dd for life, as long as we can work to teach her the things I mentioned previously.

 

IMO, expectation is something that develops based on our experiences. Dd has come to expect a gift from Grandma. There is nothing wrong with that expectation, which is based on her experiences. The problem would be if dd begins to demand more expensive gifts, gifts from other stores they are not visiting, throws a tantrum if for some reason Grandma doesn't buy her a gift, or if dd is ungrateful for the gifts she receives. She often comes home and says that she didn't really want the particular item Grandma insisted on buying but that she accepted it with thanks because she knew it was important to Grandma. She realizes that sometimes gift giving is more important to the giver than to the receiver. For a paltry $10 per month, I am not willing to take away the pleasure my mother gets from treating her granddd. (dd accumulates these not-so-special gifts and donates them to the church's various children's ministries)

[hillfarm]

I am curious -- do you think punishing or hitting children prepares them for mistakes they will make as they experience life and relationships in the work place?

 

 

 

I think punishment creates an awareness in children of the fact that behaviors can have positive or negative consequences. It does not "prepare them for mistakes", it causes them to be aware that not all consequences are good ones.

 

We have a woodstove. When dd was around 3, I could tell her several times not to touch the stove or she would be burned. However, as a typical child, she might have chosen to ignore my advice and to touch the stove. In my punitive world, after several reminders of the dire natural consequences, and after making it very clear that my rule was no touching the stove, I had a choice. I could let her touch the stove and learn the hard way (with tiny fingers seared to the bone) or I could introduce some punitive incentive on a much milder level (you will have to stay in the other room that has fewer toys-loss of privilege) to keep her safe.

 

BTW, just to clarify, I am not talking about abusive treatment. Scooping her up and plopping her on the other side of the baby gate is not the same thing as beating her with a switch and I resent the implication that it is. Although there were instances of crocodile tears occasionally, I can't ever remember a situation when I caused serious pain to my dd in any sort of punishment. There is also a big difference between tears of pain or fear, which I have occasionally seen but never instigated, and tears of anger at having one's will thwarted, which did crop up from time to time.

 

Regarding punishment and future relationships, yes, I do think proper punishment judiciously applied in youth will help with future relationships. "If you shirk your clean-up duties, leaving the work to someone else, you will lose the privilege of watching your favorite television show" does help teach someday-to-become adults to understand that they must do their fair share of the drudge work around the home or there may be negative consequences. If they don't learn this then they may well face more intense pain when their future room mate or spouse gets fed up with their self centeredness and either fights with them or ends the relationship. Missing Nature is a minor negative consequence that will hopefully result in them being able to avoid a more harsh consequence later.

 

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this. It is late and I need to get to bed. I'm happy your method has worked for you and I made a genuine inquiry as to how you handled certain situations if you did not use any punishments. If you wish to respond, I will read your post tomorrow. If not, I'm glad your choice is working for you and yours. I hope you can extend the same courtesy to me and mine.

Edited November 16, 2009 by hillfarm

[rafiki]

.

[LibraryLover]

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this. It is late and I need to get to bed. I'm happy your method has worked for you and I made a genuine inquiry as to how you handled certain situations if you did not use any punishments. If you wish to respond, I will read your post tomorrow. If not, I'm glad your choice is working for you and yours. I hope you can extend the same courtesy to me and mine.

 

 

I thought I had answered your question, and I thought I was courteous. Maybe we need to be more specific with questions? Is gently removing a child from near a hot stove punishment? I don't think so. Putting a baby gate around a wood-stove would be the right thing to do. Hitting a babe for crawling near the stove would be punitive and I would never do that. Keeping babies safe from fire is what parents try to do. It's one of our jobs. Maybe our language is different, but our thoughts similar?

 

If not, I will agree to disagree. :) Dh and I decided before our first child was born that we would not strike our children for any reason, or treat them disrepectfully.

[asta]

I thought I had answered your question, and I thought I was courteous. Maybe we need to be more specific with questions? Is gently removing a child from near a hot stove punishment? I don't think so. Putting a baby gate around a wood-stove would be the right thing to do. Hitting a babe for crawling near the stove would be punitive and I would never do that. Keeping babies safe from fire is what parents try to do. It's one of our jobs. Maybe our language is different, but our thoughts similar?

 

If not, I will agree to disagree. :) Dh and I decided before our first child was born that we would not strike our children for any reason, or treat them disrepectfully.

 

No one on this thread has talked about hitting kids over chicken nuggets.

 

The only violence discussed was me talking about beating a toy with a baseball bat.

 

Punitive does not equal beat the child.

 

Punitive (in this case) equals not getting what you want in a way that makes you upset; eg: inflicting punishment. Punishment does NOT equal beating or striking.

 

 

a

[Haiku]

Better my kindly smack on her hand than life's hard smack in her face. l

 

I'm guessing that LaurieNE took this as literal and not a metaphor.

 

Tara

[Sasha]

Ime, and as I explain to my children, the reason they only get some choices, whereas Mom or Dad have seemingly endless choices, is because Mom and Dad are the ones paying. If someone takes me out to lunch I try to be considerate of their wallet as well as pleasing to my own pallet.

 

I'm very rarely on the taken-out-to-eat side of life but I treat my mom regularly when we go places to eat. My idea is that if I'm offering to buy you dinner then I have the money to pay for whatever you might like to eat. Obviously I might suggest Steak and Shake rather than Red Lobster if I have less money to divide per person but I wouldn't treat my children as if they had less choices because they didn't have the money. After all, they're kids. They *can't* compete financially. And why should they? They're kids.

 

It's rude to refuse to even try food that another person has made for you. Few people I know run a diner in their kitchen. You either eat what's made or you don't eat. As for forcing kids to eat healthy food, it's teaching them that even if they hate veggies they HAVE to eat them, because it's part of a balanced diet. I eat foods I'm not a fan of (most of them are green), because they are good for me. If I'm at someone else's home I will eat what they cook, because they were kind enough to do so and it would be rude to do otherwise.

 

I have a son with sensory issues that will literally throw up if a weird food texture is forced upon him in the interest of not being rude. I guess I have a bit of a mama bear over that one. But then I don't eat food that I don't like. I don't need to be rude about it or obnoxious, but I don't gag down a food that I really don't care for just because someone made it.

 

For us meals are a family affair and I take everyones likes and dislikes into consideration when I'm cooking. After all, it is as important to be a kind and gracious hostess (modelling the behavior I want from others and not just demanding it) as it is to not appear to be a spoiled child.

[Sasha]

I know I must be crazy to keep posting. I know I am. :001_huh:

 

My kids are nearly 21, 17, almost 16, and 10. They are generous and a pleasure to be around. They are kind to each other, and not estranged from their parents. They communicate. Is every day a picnic? No. But their father and I have never once struck them or 'smacked a hand'. They did not need to feel pain or have to be shamed into doing the 'right thing'. My children are not treated as royality; they are treated as the human beings they are.

 

I don't want to actually debate anybody but I did want to agree with this. Our tactic with our kids is simple--model respect and other things that we want to our children and they behave that way in turn. I treat them the way I want to be treated and, for the most part, I get that in return.

 

It's not like every day is super easy. There are four of them. One has sensory issues and epilepsy. We have bad days. I'm not trying to sound like I have a model of perfection in my little house.

 

But it always makes me feel uncomfortable when people seem ovely invested in controlling all the little things about kids. I did grow up in a very authoritarian household, though, so it might be a natural avoidance.

[Haiku]

 

But it always makes me feel uncomfortable when people seem ovely invested in controlling all the little things about kids.

 

I don't view finding a solution to persistent whininess and demanding behavior controlling a little thing. I find it a character issue. The OP stated that she has discussed this with her kids multiple times, apparently to no avail. Now, with the four year old it might be more of a wait-it-out thing, but a seven year old is perfectly capable of understanding that rude behavior has consequences. One time did I ever have to leave anywhere with my kids due to unacceptable behavior. Only once. One time was enough for both of my little kids to get it. Are they now perfect angels whose every word drips like nectar from their innocent mouths? No. But they are certainly aware of the need to find polite ways to express themselves. And I discuss with my kids the idea that, if someone does something nice for you and you act unappreciative and complain about it, people often don't feel in a hurry to do something nice for you again. I don't find that punitive, I find it honest.

 

Tara

Edited November 16, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[Sasha]

Laurie, how did you prepare your children to handle situations later on in life when a boss, coworker, or even an event handed them negative consequences based on their behaviors? Unfortunately we all go through spells of being selfish or just a jerk sometimes. How do they deal with it when they bring negative consequences down upon themselves?

 

(Not being critical, just curious and always on the lookout for new information)

 

I'm not Laurie, but I can give an example of how we've dealt with this. DD, who is 10, is a dancer with a performance troupe. These kids practice together 5 days a week and sometimes there are cliques. There is one girl, in particular, who is just a mean girl. This girl seems to have focused on my dd, in particular, to pick on.

 

We discussed the matter with the head of the dance school (very informally, as he's a buddy of mine from high school); just an fyi dd and this girl are having issues. Then we discussed ways of dealing with the girl with dd. Could she tell the girl to kiss her behind? Sure. But I reminded her that the dance school might have something to say about that choice. DD is not just my jurisdiction when she's there; she has to follow their rules or she won't dance.

 

Anyway, to make a long story short dd adopted a pretty mature avoidance policy with this girl (I've never been good at ignoring people so I was impressed with her resolve).

 

The girl still picked on her. I can't control that girl, nor could dd. Nor could your (proverbial your) child control her, even if your child had grown up in a punitive household. It still hurts when someone picks on you. You aren't any more prepared just because you've been grounded or had the TV taken away.

 

To make a long story short I ended up overhearing some info about this girl's background that makes her behavior a little more understandable (not acceptable, mind, but understandable). When we know *why* people do the things they do it makes it easier for us to have compassion and not just anger. DD and I talked about this girl and both of us came away from the conversation feeling quite differently about her.

 

Now dd and her are cautious friends. Not best buddies, certainly, but not enemies.

 

I think that discipline is about giving my children the tools it takes to make the right decisions. Certainly under my guidance until she is older (and, with luck, she'll always find my opinion valuable) but those are still her decisions to make. By raising her in a household where her opinions were always valued (but placed in a framework of mutual respect) she has the self confidence to make those decisions. Could she have told the girl off? She could have--and certainly telling someone off isn't exclusive to non-punitively parented children. She would have faced the dance school's consequences. She didn't need a background in grounding to understand those consequences.

 

Again, I'm not trying to say that anyone who parents differently than I do is wrong or that my way is the only way or anything, just offering up how we handle things.

[hillfarm]

Sasha, it's not about punishment over being victimized. Of course negative consequences don't help anyone deal with hurtful people. However, if the girl going around riding roughshod over others had been met with negative consequences in the past (whether administered by parents, as we are discussing, or by nature when some other kid refused to be bullied), I feel she would be less likely to be hurting your dd.

 

Your child made an apparently wise and mature decision. But the other child didn't. How do you think the other child will fare in the work world later on if she is permitted to continue abusing others until she feels like stopping? If I were to be her future boss, I can guarantee that I would administer some negative consequences, in the form of a pink slip, in short order to anyone who abused and intimidated my other staff. If I were to be her landlord and she abused me or my property, again I can guarantee that she would be seeking new lodgings as quickly as legally possible. Do you think the person who becomes her spouse will be satisfied with pursuing a cautious relationship with her, living in fear of her abuse?

 

I am talking about using mild, often natural, negative consequences as a teaching tool to help my child avoid much more severe negative consequences in later life.

 

We live on a small farm. We have friends from church who have two very unruly boys. They have demonstrated time and time again their complete disregard for their parents direction regarding their behavior. They came to visit us once. I told them very clearly that they were not to go into the horse pasture because they were not familiar with our horses. When I caught them in the pasture heading toward the back end of one of our older horses that is quick to kick (due to failing eyesight and inability to sort friend from foe behind her), I abruptly escorted them to their parents and made excuses about needing to get back to work so they would leave. We have not invited them back. That is a negative consequence that could have been a whole lot worse had I not intervened. IMO, it could have been avoided completely if their parents had dished out a few mild negative consequences (loss of privileges) at their home so that their children would have learned that if someone in authority tells you not to do something, you had better not do it or something negative might happen.

 

My world is filled with consequences. If I don't do right by my animals, they die. If I fail to prepare for winter, we may freeze. If I drive recklessly on our unpaved roads, I may well destroy my car or my life. I am quick to realize that I must be responsible for my behavior and that if I choose certain paths, I will bring negative consequences down upon myself. I can't imagine not equipping dd with the same concept by introducing her to some mild negative consequence situations so that she can learn this lesson. It is sooo not about hurting her to "teach her a lesson". It is about loving her enough to do that which I'd rather not have to do in order to help her later. (Like requiring she learn her academic material now, even when she would rather be doing something else and considers school work to be a negative, so she will not have to deal with the consequences of being uneducated when she becomes an adult.)

 

Back to the OP...IMO, children should be taught to not be whiny, demanding, ungrateful brats. That requires removing privileges (negative consequences) rather than talking for many children. Many have such a strong will that they are unable to alter their behavior based on rationalizing and reasoning. If those children do not learn to control their behavior to avoid bringing negative consequences upon themselves, then I fear they face a lifetime of unpleasantness as no one wants to be around them and their demanding ways. Not all children need the same degree of firmness in training. And at no time is it necessary to abuse a child to teach this. However, as I said above, I'd much rather deal with disciplining dd now than picking up the much more painful pieces later in her life.

Edited November 16, 2009 by hillfarm

[LibraryLover]

:D I knew I could not possibly be all by my lonesome even here.

 

 

I don't want to actually debate anybody but I did want to agree with this. Our tactic with our kids is simple--model respect and other things that we want to our children and they behave that way in turn. I treat them the way I want to be treated and, for the most part, I get that in return.

 

It's not like every day is super easy. There are four of them. One has sensory issues and epilepsy. We have bad days. I'm not trying to sound like I have a model of perfection in my little house.

 

But it always makes me feel uncomfortable when people seem ovely invested in controlling all the little things about kids. I did grow up in a very authoritarian household, though, so it might be a natural avoidance.

[Garga]

No one is making the kids eat fried worms while we're all feasting on Lobster. :)

 

For the nuggets: We're been trying to save money lately and not go out to eat (which is a favorite thing for dh and I.) The reason we don't go out to eat: to pay for a fence in the yard for the children. DH and I are sacrificing the one fun thing we do, so that the kids can have a fence and have a safe place to play.

 

So, I accidentally timed things wrong and we were far from home at dinner time. We stopped at McD's just to eat something to curb the rumbles in our tummies until we could get home.

 

The kids (esp ds7 who's old enough to understand) were reminded that we are trying not to eat out as much, but I'd messed up so we'd just get nuggets to share until we got home. And they nodded and seemed ok, until we get to the window to order, when they start yelling out, "NOT JUST NUGGETS! I WANTED A HAPPY MEAL!" while I was trying to order. And then gave me angry, disgruntled faces when I didn't give in.

 

Of course, I realize now, I should have just driven off (or eaten all the nuggets myself) and let the tummies grumble for an hour, or only given them apple dippers or something...but oh well. It's done.

 

And One l Michele: yes mom-mom is out of control! I told her it was ok to spoil them and that what happens at mom-mom's stays at mom-moms, but I think I have to revisit that. It's getting a bit crazy. And on the rare occasion she says no, they're very ungracious about it, because usually she gives in to all their demands.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Garga

[LibraryLover]

Minimizing one's disrespectful words, actions, and attitudes towards growing children, who depend on our compassion and mature guidance, contributes nothing positive to their growth into independent, thoughtful adults.

[Haiku]

Minimizing one's disrespectful words, actions, and attitudes towards growing children, who depend on our compassion and mature guidance, contributes nothing positive to their growth into independent, thoughtful adults.

 

I guess that a lot of us disagree with you on what constitutes disrespectful actions. But I'm sure you already figured that out. ;) To me, "mature guidance" means helping my kids learn that their actions have consequences, and not always pleasant ones.

 

Tara

[LibraryLover]

I guess that a lot of us disagree with you on what constitutes disrespectful actions. But I'm sure you already figured that out. ;) To me, "mature guidance" means helping my kids learn that their actions have consequences, and not always pleasant ones.

 

Tara

 

 

We will not agree on approach/child rearing issues, Tara. Ever. I am OK with that, and I'll bet you are too. :D

[Haiku]

We will not agree on approach/child rearing issues, Tara. Ever. I am OK with that, and I'll bet you are too. :D

 

Absolutely! :)

 

Tara

[Renee in NC]

Minimizing one's disrespectful words, actions, and attitudes towards growing children, who depend on our compassion and mature guidance, contributes nothing positive to their growth into independent, thoughtful adults.

 

I think you said here the opposite of what you wanted to say. Either that or I missed your point through the thread.;)

 

I can see some of your point, though, as I realize that many of the negative behaviors that I loathe in my dc can be traced directly back to my dh or I! Children have a way of magnifying our sin back to us....

[LibraryLover]

No, this time I think I said what I wanted. ;) :D But feel free to edit; I am always grateful. This thread is very typical of punitive parenting; such parenting minimizes and ignores the negative consequences of disrespecting children and disrespectful parenting.

 

I should have ignored the thread, of course, but I have never been good that way. :confused:

[paula j]

Very good point;)

 

I think we also have to consciously model this every day. Most adults are fairly ungrateful as well! When was the last time we realized what a blessing it is to be able "just" to walk or to breathe or to see, much less sat down and really felt appreciative for the blessing? I think it is very easy to become trapped in a cycle of feeling deprived, wanting more, acquiring it, and then...feeling empty, and repeating the cycle; it's children's more overt and loud ways of expressing it (and generally over "insignificant" things like candies and toys) that tend to offend us more than seeing our own desire for more "stuff" (generally over things like electronic goods, furniture, cars, jewelry, and other expensive items that we perceive a higher value for than a lollipop or crayon) and lack of contentedness, which is the same, but dressed up more prettily. So I think we have to be gentle with our children and not expect them to be so completely different from what we model.

[Renee in NC]

No, this time I think I said what I wanted. ;) :D But feel free to edit; I am always grateful. This thread is very typical of punitive parenting; such parenting minimizes and ignores the negative consequences of disrespecting children and disrespectful parenting.

 

I should have ignored the thread, of course, but I have never been good that way. :confused:

 

Minimizing your disrespectful words, action, and attitudes contributes *nothing* positive to their future well-being?

 

I am really confused now because it seems like you are saying that disrespectful actions and words are the way to go.

 

Can someone diagram that sentence for me please?:lol:

[Haiku]

contributes nothing positive

 

I do think you had a typo here, but I assumed you meant that it contributed *only* positive things.

 

Tara

[amsunshine]

No, this time I think I said what I wanted.

 

 

I'm confused, Laurie -- were you being sarcastic when you said that minimizing disrespectful actions toward children contributes nothing positive to their growth into thoughtful adulthood? I, too, thought this was a typo.

[LibraryLover]

I've said my say and that's all there is; there isn't any more.

 

If one wishes to minimize the negative consequences of punitive parenting, have at it. Until Obama forms an alliance with the Sith, it's still a free country. :D

[amy g.]

I haven't read every response so forgive me is this seems random, but I do think that example is an often overlooked part of parenting.

 

I remember how hard things were during Hurricane Ike when we did not have power. The kids had to haul water to flush the toilets. Morning chores took all day, then it was time to start evening chores. It was so hot that no one could sleep or get comfortable.

 

I could not believe how not one of my children complained. They just stepped right up to the plate, pitching in, and trying to make the situation better for everyone else in the family.

 

I commented to my dad about how shocked I was at their behavior. He said, "Where would they learn how to whine and ***** and complain? Does your husband come home and talk about how much harder he has to work than the other people at his office, or does he immediately look for something that needs to be done at home? Do they hear you lament about how your friends have it made, and life is so unfair, or do they hear you count your blessings?"

 

I am a neurotically respectful mother because of the way i was disrespected as a child. I know I am not rational about it, but my children are delightful and capable people despite my inability to be punitive with them.

 

I don't think my way is the best or only way to parent, but I'm pretty sure that I haven't ruined them yet.

[LibraryLover]

Very sweet.

 

I've noticed the same thing about my children. They go out of their to help when needed. Helping each other is the right thing to do, and they got here without punitve measures or disrespect.

 

I get that it's hard for people to believe children can grow and learn with gentle guidance and not punishments or unnatural consequences. 'If you touch that, I will spank you to save you". Or that if at age two they want all the toys, and you don't step in harshly, they will want all the 'toys' as adults, or that throwing away toys left on the living room floor will ensure that they will respect their things. Or that if they whine for something at 3, they will become people who can't function with their colleagues or who steal office supplies.

 

Or that without stickers and punishment they won't learn that it's important to help each other get chores done in a family. Not that little kids don't love stickers, I know they do. We collected stickers for a time. :)

 

 

 

It's been nearly 21 years that dh and I have parented with deep respect for our children, and I hope I haven't jinxed us (or my kids' compassion) with these posts. :lol: :001_huh:

 

I haven't read every response so forgive me is this seems random, but I do think that example is an often overlooked part of parenting.

 

I remember how hard things were during Hurricane Ike when we did not have power. The kids had to haul water to flush the toilets. Morning chores took all day, then it was time to start evening chores. It was so hot that no one could sleep or get comfortable.

 

I could not believe how not one of my children complained. They just stepped right up to the plate, pitching in, and trying to make the situation better for everyone else in the family.

 

I commented to my dad about how shocked I was at their behavior. He said, "Where would they learn how to whine and ***** and complain? Does your husband come home and talk about how much harder he has to work than the other people at his office, or does he immediately look for something that needs to be done at home? Do they hear you lament about how your friends have it made, and life is so unfair, or do they hear you count your blessings?"

 

I am a neurotically respectful mother because of the way i was disrespected as a child. I know I am not rational about it, but my children are delightful and capable people despite my inability to be punitive with them.

 

I don't think my way is the best or only way to parent, but I'm pretty sure that I haven't ruined them yet.

Edited November 16, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Renee in NC]

I've said my say and that's all there is; there isn't any more.

 

If one wishes to minimize the negative consequences of punitive parenting, have at it. Until Obama forms an alliance with the Sith, it's still a free country. :D

 

I am not picking on you Laurie (or even disagreeing with you as a whole), it just seemed like there was a typo in that last sentence because it said the exact opposite of what you have been saying all along in this thread and even what you said in the reponse quoted.

 

I should've just left it alone because I knew what you meant.