57% in 4th grade math!!!!!!

[pbajgrow]

I'm soooooo stressed! What's worse is my daughter is in the same boat. We've had some issues that she has never had before.

 

Let's start from the beginning......I started hsing her in 2nd grade. We did Saxon 2 for math, and she did great! I was given Abeka Arithmetic 3 for free so we went ahead and did that last year, again, without any issues. In fact, we both fell in love with Abeka. However, we started MFW this year and had to trim the budget in order to afford it. I tried to go back to Saxon 54 for her so that we could save the $50. I'm afraid that I made a HUGE mistake. She went from really getting math, to just barely surviving this year. Last year, tests went extremly well. She was about a B+ to an A student in math. This year is not going well at all!

 

This year it's all a big struggle. One reason is the copying down of things. She has the worst time with copying things down the right way. THe other seems to be the lack of drill that Saxon has. I find myself pulling out all of the Abeka concept cards to drill her everyday. They tell her how to do 3 different things in one day, and then expect her to know what she is doing and how to differenciate between them. (for example area verses perimeter)

 

We also had this problem with grammar. I changed over to R&S instead of Abeka this year, again, to save some $. Yes, it was a little harder and required a bit more work, but we were doing fine. But little by little her grade started dropping. She got a 55% on her review work the day before a test. How could I give her the test when that happens? We went ahead and bought Abeka grammar that day. She and I are very happy about the move.

 

I'm just wondering about math though. I've analyzed the whole thing over and over. She isn't having any behavioral issues. We've been getting along very well. I've made sure to limit her distractions. (brothers and sister and anything else that I thought might be a problem) I've tried to be as encouraging as I can. Although, that is tested when you get grades like these!

 

I'm sorry, I think I'm rambling now! My question is do you think I should just bite the bullet and get Abeka math? Or am I just experiencing a situation that where we need to just hunker down and plow through it as best we can? I'm struggling to find that balance of pushing through or just switching to a different curriculum. i don't want to quit just because it's hard, but I can't accept a 57% on homework either. I also don't want to keep switching. I do believe that you shouldn't switch to just switch. We just couldn't afford to get everything we wanted last spring, especially since Abeka has updated their editions at the same grade level my daughter is at. We'd have to buy everything brand new. I tried to do what was said to be similar, but it's not working! HELP!!!!! Any advice, prayers, and love is appreciated! :bigear:

 

Ps If I had to buy Abeka math, then we'd find the $! I just don't want to jump the gun without getting some sound advice.

[MIch elle]

If she received a 57% on the TEST I would be concerned but NOT the homework. Slow down and have her re-do those math problems she got wrong the next day.

 

Art Reed says you shouldn't grade math homework, that's where they are suppose to make mistakes and LEARN from their mistakes. When you have time listen to Art Reed here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/1SmartMama/2009/04/08/Leigh-for-Lunch-with-Art-Reed and/or read his newsletters: http://homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-all.php#1208

Edited October 21, 2009 by MIch elle
typo

[amtmcm]

Michelle makes a good point, but we loved A Beka math for K-4. It does a great job of building a basic foundation, so if you can swing it I'd say buy it. I am not a fan of Saxon either - it doesn't stay on a topic long enough to stick.

 

Another option might be CLE Math. It's reasonably priced and you can buy a few workbooks now and more later so you can spread out the cost. That's what I did this year - I bought 6 months worth of CLE material and I'll buy the rest in December when my allowance builds back up.

 

CLE is spiral like A Beka, but not as extreme as Saxon. I also like that CLE introduces some concepts earlier than A Beka (ie: geometry, negative numbers and estimation). Be careful with placement - CLE is ahead of most programs so you may need to start somewhere in the middle of Math 300.

 

Here's their Scope & Sequence so you can see what's covered.

 

The placement tests are free online.

 

Many on WTM are using it successfully:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134630

 

Just a thought.....

[JenAL]

:iagree: I never "grade" regular work. We go over it, correct missed problems & discuss why it was missed. The only things that get grades are quizzes & tests. And those get corrected as well. I firmly believe correcting our mistakes will help us learn much more effectively!

[pbajgrow]

I do go over all of her mistakes with her. If it's a concept that seemed to be misunderstood, then I do it with her. If it is addition and subtraction errors or copying errors I circle it and have her redo it by herself.

 

What I need help "getting" with the grading thing is that is it ok if she gets almost half the work wrong? That just seems wrong.

[Another Lynn]

Wow, maybe I'm way off base, but I would be concerned if I had a dc missing that many problems even on homework. I don't say that to alarm the op, but I think you are right to be concerned if you are heading in the right direction or not. It also can't be a pleasant experience for your dd to miss so many. I doubt she feels as though she is learning a lot. Imho I would hope that they would "get" the lesson well enough to do better than that on an assignment. If not, I would have to wonder if the lessons were effective.

 

I'm sorry I can't offer advice on whether to spend for the ABeka or not - I've never used either of those curricula. But, I'm tempted to say "go with your gut."

 

Blessings!

[Tidbits of Learning]

I disagree about the grading. I think grading daily work and homework gives them a cushion if they have a bad test or quiz. I weigh the grades and homework doesn't carry as much weight as the test or quiz, but the homework/daily work grade can help them with a bad test or quiz grade.

I have never used Saxon so I can't give an opinion on it, but one of my dc can not do math with the copying of problems at this point. We tried R&S Math 3 and it was a disaster b/c of the copying of the problems.

I would be concerned with an overall 57% for homework or daily work. Now if it is just one 57% then I would wait and give it another 2 weeks. From what I have read Saxon has a lot of problems which would make it harder to get a low score and that would concern me with homework/daily work. If they are missing a lot of problems then I would be very concerned. I would also get the opinion of my 4th grader on what they wanted to do as well.

I gave my 4th grader's opinion a lot of thought this year when we didn't do well with R&S English and with R&S Math. How does your 4th grader feel about Saxon? Does your 4th grader want to go back to Abeka.

I would look at the grades and my child's opinion as well.

[gingersmom]

I am using Saxon 54 with my son this year also and we started homeschooling with Saxon in 2nd grade.

 

I love Saxon Math.

 

The beauty of homeschooling is you can stop and start a topic whenever you want. If your daughter is not getting a concept then I would spend the next week going over it.

 

Saxon does a spiral approach so material is repeated over and over.

 

I use http://www.math-drills.com quite often for free worksheets.

 

I am doing long division and 3 digit by 2 digit multiplication with my son now because I know it is coming up in the book soon and I know he will need some extra time to master it. So we do a lesson from Saxon each day in addition to some practice worksheets on long division, etc.

[Another Lynn]

To clarify, I don't think it matters whether a person "grades" homework or not. The issue is whether or not dd is getting math. Whether a op records a grade of 57% or not is not the point. If my dc missed enough problems on the assignment to generate a 57%, I would do exactly what the op is doing - I would consider what I need to change to do a better job.

 

Just my .02.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I do go over all of her mistakes with her. If it's a concept that seemed to be misunderstood, then I do it with her. If it is addition and subtraction errors or copying errors I circle it and have her redo it by herself.

 

What I need help "getting" with the grading thing is that is it ok if she gets almost half the work wrong? That just seems wrong.

 

It would set off alarm bells for me if she missed half the problems and had been a pretty decent math student with the previous math program.

I would go with my gut and change back to what works. Abeka is a strong math program so you can't go wrong.

[EKS]

If the copying problems is a major issue, you can copy them for her (it takes just a few minutes), just leave the spaces blank if there's a word problem or a problem where she just writes down an answer.

 

Also, are you going over the lesson and practice problems with her beforehand? This can make a huge difference.

[PeterPan]

Do you know CLE will send you one light unit of their math (or any subject) for free? That would be an easy way for you to try it. It may also be that you're running into differences in sequences with the two math curricula, making it a rough transition. As the others said, I would be concerned if you taught the lesson, did the appropriate problems together, then had her miss 1/2 on the homework. I don't grade, but I expect the work to be done right. If it's not basically right, then either the lesson didn't stick or something was wrong. As far as the copying, yes that is rough. You could turn you paper 90 degrees so the lines form columns. Or you could print/make graph paper with large squares. That's what we did with RS math, and it's a great technique. Obviously the easiest solution would be to put her in workbook math. Horizons and CLE are both spiral. Both are inexpensive and well-regarded, though CLE might be more to you taste because of the built-in drill.

 

When we changed our math, we took several weeks and tried different curricula, then made our choice. I suggest you do that, then stick with it. Math is not the kind of thing you change when it's working. It may be that it was for the best that you left Abeka. Who knows, you may turn out to love CLE or whatever you try next! In your shoes, I'd probably try something new. You don't sound happy with Saxon on any front.

[JenAL]

I disagree about the grading. I think grading daily work and homework gives them a cushion if they have a bad test or quiz. I weigh the grades and homework doesn't carry as much weight as the test or quiz, but the homework/daily work grade can help them with a bad test or quiz grade.QUOTE]

 

When averaging grades, I do assign a "classwork/daily" grade. It's always 100. They are going to do their classwork until they get it all correct = 100%. That grade does not carry as much weight as the quizzes & tests or projects, but like you said it provides a "cushion" if they have a bad test. That's just how I do it. ;)

 

To the OP, yes I would be concerned if my dc missed half the problems on the classwork. Has this been happening repeatedly or is this an isolated event? If it's repeatedly, then something has to change. The child is either not mastering the concepts or the format of the curriculm is not working. I've never used Saxon, so I can't comment there. I have used Abeka & currently use CLE. Abeka was fine, but we like CLE much better. If you feel Abeka would be a better fit, I'd follow your gut.

[lovinmykids]

I think if you can swing it somehow, I would go back to the Math that was working. Switching can leave gaps in her education.

I could have probely wrote your thread. We were in the same position and switched our math to Saxon 3 this year and she was loosing everything she had learned because it was too slow and the whole "incremental Spiral" just isn't right for mine.

So, I bit the bullet and just shelled out $120 to go back to BJU math.

Should come tomarrow. Were working on a chapter in BJU 2 right now to kill time and she's doing great.

Stick to what works!!

HTH

[kalanamak]

She was about a B+ to an A student in math. This year is not going well at all!

 

We also had this problem with grammar. . I've analyzed the whole thing over and over. She isn't having any behavioral issues. We've been getting along very well. I've made sure to limit her distractions. (brothers and sister and anything else that I thought might be a problem) I've tried to be as encouraging as I can. Although, that is tested when you get grades like these!

My question is do you think I should just bite the bullet and get Abeka math? Or am I just experiencing a situation that where we need to just hunker down and plow through it as best we can? I'm struggling to find that balance of pushing through or just switching to a different curriculum.

 

One of the things I hated about ps was that I was always ahead or behind. I went through a "slow" year in 8th and 9th grade. I was a "late bloomer" and everyone else seemed to have a more adult mind. I was behind in K-3rd, and then well ahead of the class until 8th grade. Then behind. It was a bummer, and part of why I dropped out and left school altogether. Maybe she needs a little more mental maturity to face her grade-level work? Just a thought....

 

And, just a thought, hopping around curriculum can cost. Sometimes it is cheaper to just get the best thing first. Just a thought....

 

:grouphug: and a hot bath. Stressing must be very stressful!

[Mom0012]

I haven't read all the posts, so sorry if I'm repeating what others have said. While I don't give a grade for my children's daily work, I do check it and have them correct their problems each day. I would not be happy if they were getting almost half of them wrong. That does not sound right. I expect to see a few errors, but not that many. Saxon just may not be a good fit for your daughter. I would seriously consider returning to Abeka if she was doing well with that.

 

Lisa

[pbajgrow]

You girls are great! Just to clarify, she's gotten a 57% the last 2 days. I would say that she mostly gets a 70 to 75% on homework (about 40% of the time), but more and more often gets in the 60's. (Again, this never happened with Abeka!:confused1:)

 

I get the whole grading thing. I understand why some would and/or would not grade. We do just because I want that level of responsibility for her. You're suggestions are great!

[kamom]

We do Saxon math and it's going well. My thoughts are that CLE progresses to fast; like to much covered at an early age. I would try to figure out what she's missing. That's why I like to check every day and go over the incorrect problems with them.

My DD 8 had a similar problem, though not as many wrong. It's getting a lot better since I keep very close eye on what's she's getting wrong and why and then focus on that.

For her it was a certain kind of story problem and figuring out time/clock problems and then in her hurry she would write the problem as a subtraction and then add it up.

After keeping close tab on it and still seeing no improvement, Then I would consider a switch.

[CactusPair]

One of my dc cannot copy problems or even do a crowded page with small print. He gets the answers wrong even though he understands the work.

If he missed that many homework problems, I'd be beside myself with stress.

 

It could be that your dd is using all her mental energy just getting the problems on the page. If Abeka has room to write in the workbook, I'd go with that personally.

 

Also, I'm not familiar with Saxon 5/4, but my SIL used it. She mentioned that the 5/4 level is for *advanced* 4th graders and/or average 5th graders. Her ds started the 5/4 level in 4th grade, but took a year and a half to finish it I think. He had been doing Saxon since K.

 

Maybe the 5/4 level is a bit overchallenging right now if she's just beginning 4th grade and you could slow things down with more review/drill each day if you want to stick with the Saxon???? This is just an idea.

 

Also, as far as affording the Abeka...can you find the old editions for cheaper and use those??? I know that Abeka has some of their old eds. for sale at reduced price, but they are non-returnable.

[pbajgrow]

It's both concepts and calculations (due to speeding through) and copying! I found someone selling their abeka package for a great price. I might convince hubby that we need it tonight. He's not real happy with me since we had to buy Abeka for grammar recently. I should have just bit the bullet and bought both at the same time. Live and learn!

[pbajgrow]

One of my dc cannot copy problems or even do a crowded page with small print. He gets the answers wrong even though he understands the work.

If he missed that many homework problems, I'd be beside myself with stress.

 

It could be that your dd is using all her mental energy just getting the problems on the page. If Abeka has room to write in the workbook, I'd go with that personally.

 

Also, I'm not familiar with Saxon 5/4, but my SIL used it. She mentioned that the 5/4 level is for *advanced* 4th graders and/or average 5th graders. Her ds started the 5/4 level in 4th grade, but took a year and a half to finish it I think. He had been doing Saxon since K.

 

Maybe the 5/4 level is a bit overchallenging right now if she's just beginning 4th grade and you could slow things down with more review/drill each day if you want to stick with the Saxon???? This is just an idea.

 

Also, as far as affording the Abeka...can you find the old editions for cheaper and use those??? I know that Abeka has some of their old eds. for sale at reduced price, but they are non-returnable.

 

You've hit many great points! I might need to print this to show hubby why we may need to switch! Abeka just updated their 4th grade material and none of it is compatable with earlier editions:glare:

 

That's why it's so expensive. In all of our past years of buying I have always bought the TM's used. THat's half the cost right there!

[LadyAberlin]

I would ditch Saxon and go back to Abeka since that was working. Also since Saxon is spiral it isn't like a mastery program where all the problems are the new concept and so she just didn't happen to understand that particular lesson. The lessons are made of a wide variety of problems and so if she is missing that many problems then it means she isn't getting a large portion of what is being taught. If there is that drastic of a difference between this yr and last yr I would definitely go back to Abeka. Sell your Saxon and Rod and staff on the swap board to help cut the costs of your purchases.

[Lori D.]

1.

One reason is the copying down of things. She has the worst time with copying things down the right way.

 

Many students are NOT ready for this skill yet -- all their mental energy is going into learning, understanding and putting into practice the math skills they just learned. This is not what I'd want to be struggling or battling about with my student -- I would either write out out the problems on graph paper (helps her line up the numbers) for the student, or switch to a simple, uncluttered workbook program with problems pre-printed on the page.

 

 

 

2.

THe other seems to be the lack of drill that Saxon has. I find myself pulling out all of the Abeka concept cards to drill her everyday. They tell her how to do 3 different things in one day, and then expect her to know what she is doing and how to differenciate between them. (for example area verses perimeter)

 

 

This sounds like your DD's learning style for math does NOT match up with Saxon's teaching style. Saxon is very incremental, breaking a topic into tiny steps and spreading the concept over multiple (often non-contiguous) lessons, along with a several other topics that are also in various stages of explanation. This works for some students, but not for all (it was not at all a match for either of our sons, each for completely different reasons). You've toughed it out for a quarter of the school year, you're not a quitter; go with what know works WITH your DD's learning style.

 

 

 

She isn't having any behavioral issues. We've been getting along very well. I've made sure to limit her distractions. (brothers and sister and anything else that I thought might be a problem) I've tried to be as encouraging as I can.

 

 

You've ruled out the learning environment and possible attitude issues -- that's confirmation that the program is not a good fit for your DD's learning style, not an external factor.

 

 

 

RE: the cost

Can you borrow from a friend?

Can you piece together a used set? I saw a number of Abeka Arithmetic 4 items on Amazon used.

Can you resell the Saxon to help defray your cost?

If you buy the Abeka new, can you resell at the end of the year and recover some of the cost?

 

 

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[Julie in MN]

I'm struggling to find that balance of pushing through or just switching to a different curriculum. i don't want to quit just because it's hard, but I can't accept a 57% on homework either. I also don't want to keep switching. I do believe that you shouldn't switch to just switch. We just couldn't afford to get everything we wanted last spring, especially since Abeka has updated their editions at the same grade level my daughter is at. We'd have to buy everything brand new. I tried to do what was said to be similar, but it's not working! HELP!!!!! Any advice, prayers, and love is appreciated! :bigear:

 

Ps If I had to buy Abeka math, then we'd find the $! I just don't want to jump the gun without getting some sound advice.

 

It sounds like ABeka will work better for you?

 

But I just wanted to mention that sometimes kids hit a plateau in math. Some topics just take a while to sink in. I don't necessarily think switching programs is necessary but it can give a coincidental breather if the hard topic isn't in the same spot for a while.

 

I definitely wouldn't move ahead in any program if she's struggling. That's the wonder of homeschool -- we can sit for a while instead of having to move ahead with the class. I'm definitely in favor of firm foundation rather than sprinting ahead.

 

Also, I don't think it's realistic to think a math program will cover math facts drill. How is a textbook going to know exactly when each child will have mastered each individual fact? Some will be drilling too much and others not enough. No public school teacher my kids ever had assumed the textbook would include drill, and neither have I. I'd do math drill separately. It makes math class less stressful, too.

 

Just adding those couple thoughts.

Julie

[elegantlion]

It sounds like you went from consumables where you write in the book , to non-consumables that were less expensive but take more copying. I bet that is your problem right there. Some kids are not ready to copy things until they are a little older.

 

:iagree: We used Abeka from 1st - 3rd with great results. I will say that from 3rd to 4th in Abeka is a big step in the amount of problems. My ds also took a nosedive is his math ability at that age. We tried Abeka 4 and it was torture for him, even compared to Abeka 3. We ended up moving to Singapore Math with great results.

 

Sounds like Abeka or another consumable book might be a better fit.

[tonya in sc]

I had 2 kids in that same boat. My oldest two are 16 months apart. They do a lot of work together.

I hate math. I really do. Didn't do well in it in school, and 20 years haven't helped me improve any. With my oldest, we got woefully behind in math from the start. She took 2 years to finish Saxon 5/4. Her younger sister was going through things at a better rate, but not ever finishing anything.

We kept at it, and mom had to buckle down and spend the time doing the work with them, keeping them on track. We also quit doing tests and assigning grades. It was stressing them out, and kept them from focusing on just doing the work.

They are now 15 and 16, and doing college algebra at a local university. Just to say, keep plugging. Do the work, don't stress over "grades," and master the material.

Blessings, sister! You, and she, will do great!

tonya in sc

[Old Dominion Heather]

I'd go straight back to ABEKA if she likes it, but I would look for a used copy (or an unused copy of the old work book, someone is bound to have one) and use that.

 

If they just redid the 4th grade math, they may have changed the scope and sequence which may mess her up at first. I'd go with what was working and let her build up her confidence in Math again.

 

HOWEVER... I'd hang on to the Saxon book and use it to assign problems every now and then to make sure she s really understanding the math in Abeka. Cross-training like that can help you to pick up on an area of weakness.