*sigh* BTDT moms? My strong-minded child is so exhausting!

[Ginevra]

Really. I'm just so over it some days. I have a notion that one day, he will be a strong, tenacious, decisive man, but right now it really bites sometimes. Did I mention he is merely 4? I have been amazed by his ability to outlast me since he was 7 months old.

 

It was the library today that really just did it. I'm sure I'm not taking him to the library again until he is 17. I never get out of the library happy if he is along. And I hardly ever get to choose my own books unless I go another night without him. He will not walk quietly and near me where I need to go. He lays on the floor and rolls around. He is constantly too loud. We always end up checking out at least several absurd books because he thinks he absolutely has to have this totally unsuitable book.

 

Here is a scene from today: First, I could not find him because he left while I was on the computer catalog. (And what is up with that thing? I can't make heads or tails of it anymore!) I spotted him at the end of an aisle and called to him, but I'm trying not to call too loudly, because we're in the study section. He hears me, but walks further away anyway. I trot down the row and hiss at him to stay with me and he is striding purposefully along, saying he wants to check out a book for Daddy. I manage to steer him to a shelf where there are fishing books, to make good on his mission, but that will not do, because actually, he has a very specific book in mind. Again, he is walking briskly away from me in aim of this Nascar book. I had to abandon my little book cart thingy so I could trot after him like an idiot, as he walks ever-more quickly away. I reach out and snatch his arm with the Vulcan Grip of Death and reel him towards me. I try to work out the getting-a-book-for-Daddy thing, but now he has a different plan. He wants to find his brother for some purpose.

 

At this point, I am just trying to gather the chicks around so we can flee as soon as possible. I feel so impotent - can't even direct my 4-year-old through the library and it would have been rather against the point for either one of us to be loud and insistant. Honestly, I was mad as hell by the time we were finally in the car.

[Pamela H in Texas]

It DOES get better :) Mine is now 14 and a wonderful young man. At four, I wondered whether either of would make it this far. Four was THE absolute worse year though 6 was pretty rough. Things got much better as he actually started GETTING the teaching and practicing it better.

 

But I was angry and sad and scared and worried and....it was HORRIBLE.

 

BTW, when my son was 4 in the library, I got onto him and he moved away from me. I hissed at him. He turned to me and quite loudly growled, "I DESPISE you." I about fell over (btw, this child spoke late, usually used sign language, and was 99% unintelligible articulation wise....all except this sentence! LOL).

 

You might look at my post in the "childhood" thread. Maybe it'll be a little inspiring?

 

But really, four is rough anyway, much worse than two ever thought of being and then with some of these more challenging kiddos...wow!

 

But it will work out. You'r just going to be exhausted between now and then :)

[Dirtroad]

Put him in a stroller. Force him to hold your hand. Make a big deal of not taking him. Hold the back of his pants by a loop or waste band.

 

Instructions before you enter, as you enter, as you walk.... (oh, it gets tiring, I know)

 

There are other discipline practices that are very useful here but I do not know your family practices & don't want to open a debate. At four, he should be able to be quiet & respectful to you & the library patrons.

 

Good luck.

[Slartibartfast]

I have a 1 year old boy.

 

He takes after my side of the family so I am already getting dead bolts installed in the top of my door and nailing the bookcases to the walls.

 

He just started walking but we really have to watch him to make sure he doesn't climb completely over the couch.

 

 

I am thinking of getting those monkey back packs things...do those work? (I don't need one yet...but I can feel it coming :lol:) My cousin would just keel over like he had just been shot if someone tried to put something like that on him...so I am not sure.

 

Maybe a monkey back pack would work for you??

 

You could try duct taping him to your cart? ;)

Edited September 3, 2009 by Sis

[gingersmom]

I was threatening to send my son to military school at that point.

 

It gets better. He is a sweet sweet 10 year old little boy who loves school (and the library!)

[lauranc]

An idea for the library... if your library system allows it, you might think about reserving books to pick up once a week or so. You might suggest to him that he can look at the catalog online (at home) to choose his books-- and then just pick up the books from the library.

 

Perhaps when you go to the library to pick up your books on hold, you can let him pick a book on CD or something to take home as well. That would give him a chance to actually be in the library practicing 'good library behavior' but allow you to keep your sanity since you're just picking up the bulk of your stuff to go. (-:

 

Then, over time you could gradually spend more and more time in the library looking for books etc..

 

HTH... I have a strong-willed kid myself who is now 14.5. 4 was probably his most difficult year. I know it was mine!

 

..Laura

[anotherclassicmom]

I don't have a strong willed son, but I do have a strong willed daughter. I would have to agree that 4-6 were the tough years. 7 is getting better, but I sure hope it continues to get better. She is the reason I may or may not survive homeschooling.......

[Ginevra]

BTW, when my son was 4 in the library, I got onto him and he moved away from me. I hissed at him. He turned to me and quite loudly growled, "I DESPISE you." I about fell over (btw, this child spoke late, usually used sign language, and was 99% unintelligible articulation wise....all except this sentence! LOL).

 

Oh, my, Pamela! I would be shocked by that, too, but I wouldn't put that past my darling son, either! Your post does me a lot of good. I believe we will get there one day but, holy cow! He defied me more by his first birthday than my other two put together their whole lives.

 

Put him in a stroller. Force him to hold your hand. Make a big deal of not taking him. Hold the back of his pants by a loop or waste band.

 

Instructions before you enter, as you enter, as you walk.... (oh, it gets tiring, I know)

 

There are other discipline practices that are very useful here but I do not know your family practices & don't want to open a debate. At four, he should be able to be quiet & respectful to you & the library patrons.

 

I don't have a stroller anymore. It was moot before he was 3. Forced contact is completely not worth attempting. And honestly, that's not the route I want to go anyway. I don't want him to behave because he's straight-jacketed and can't do otherwise, kwim? Constant instructions do help, but it's not practicable in the library. Works well at Costco, though.

 

And yeah, I'm not too much of the other discipline practices mindset. ;) For starters, I could see very early that if I was going to try the "break him down" route, it would look a heck of a lot like abuse. Secondly, I witnessed my strong-willed nephew growing up with a mother who took this approach. He is grown now and he's not the better for it, to understate the case.

 

And lastly, it doesn't matter what he "should" be able to do. He isn't. He's not the kid who will walk along, holding my hand and quietly waiting for me to do what I want/need. I have had two like that, and they are really a pleasure, but it is plain to me that he isn't going to be like that unless I drug him into a stupor.

 

Maybe a monkey back pack would work for you??

 

What in the world is a monkey back pack?! :D If you mean like a sling or carrier that goes on my back, no, that would be torture for us both. He's strictly self-locomotion.

[Dirtroad]

But you can't be held captive by his behavior or exhausted from it. Hopefully you will find a way to make him understand that until he is older & wiser, you are in charge & looking out for his well being and development. He can't be in charge.

 

I don't think you can reason with a four year old on major issues... that is the reason I recommended holding his hand firmly to keep him off the floor. You can prepare them and remind them of expectations... but not really reason with them as to why, etc.

 

Other forms of discipline are controversial and (if used correctly) won't destroy a strong will... but they do establish boundaries and expectations/accountability... but I know it is an uncomfortable idea for so many. That is why I worded it carefully.

 

I have a strong willed daughter but never had such issues. I wish I had great nuggets of wisdom! You will have great advice for others as you learn & find the best way for you guys!;)

[melissel]

Oh no, you guys are really scaring me. I have the little girl version of the OP's DS, and she'll be 4 in nine days :crying:

 

Quill, I have no advice, but I'm right there with you. My DDalmost7 has been the easiest baby, toddler, and kid. I was not at all prepared for DDalmost4's temperament. It's only been in the last month or so that I've started really holding every, single line with her--even small, seemingly petty lines that I would previously have ignored in the name of harmony or chalked up to toddlerhood.

 

She's been strong-willed since the day she was born. I'm an extended BFeeding, solids-delaying mom. At 5 months old, she decided that she that she wanted to eat the same food we were at meals, and she would cry and fuss and kick up a fit at the table at every meal. I finally bought some organic puffed rice to keep her happy. That lasted about a week or so, until she figured out that she was not eating the same food we were. She wouldn't touch it after that. She walked at 10 months and taught herself to use the potty at 18 months (never pooped in a diaper after 16 months). And we've walked a long road since then :banghead:

 

We don't have problems at the library anymore, but she does the same thing with the books. She'll pull a handful of books off the shelf and INSIST that these are the books she's dying to read. I used to argue with her, but I finally just started letting her bring them home. I realized there are worse things than a kid who's psyched to get books from the library :lol:

 

Anyway, I have no real advice, because I'm on the same journey with you. I will say, though, that now that I've stopped letting her off the hook for even little things, I've discovered how many boundaries I failed to set or hold, when I really should have been more careful. I don't know what your personal parenting style is, but maybe that's worth looking at? Or maybe you're already better than I am at maintaining your boundaries and that's why you're so exhausted! You're not alone :grouphug:

 

But now I'm really worried about this coming year :(

[Mom-ninja.]

A monkey backpack is a pack the kid wears and it has an attached line that the parent holds onto.

 

My strong willed one is 5. I love him so much, and he exhausts me each and every day. Every day I find myself struggling not to lose my temper. Sometimes I lose that battle.

 

I look at him, and I marvel at how far his strong will might take....if I point him in the right direction. I sure don't want to break his strong will, but I wish he wouldn't use it to drive me insane.

 

So far it's just consistancy that I hold on to. We've been working on things like listening the first time when I know he's heard me. If he doesn't it's immediate consequence. Immediate.

 

I've also started using the timer for some things. He'll take over an hour to do a chore because he simply does not want to do it.

 

Yes, my ds likes to walk up to the line, and then just barely stick his toe over it. If I don't give immediate consequence at that point he'll jump over the line.

[melissel]

My strong willed one is 5. I love him so much, and he exhausts me each and every day. Every day I find myself struggling not to lose my temper. Sometimes I lose that battle.

 

I look at him, and I marvel at how far his strong will might take....if I point him in the right direction. I sure don't want to break his strong will, but I wish he wouldn't use it to drive me insane.

 

So far it's just consistancy that I hold on to. We've been working on things like listening the first time when I know he's heard me. If he doesn't it's immediate consequence. Immediate.

 

I've also started using the timer for some things. He'll take over an hour to do a chore because he simply does not want to do it.

 

Yes, my ds likes to walk up to the line, and then just barely stick his toe over it. If I don't give immediate consequence at that point he'll jump over the line.

 

A lot of this sounds familiar. I need to get an egg timer.

 

KH, what are your consequences? Nothing seems to matter to my DD3! Obviously, if we're fighting over something like whether she can watch TV or have a cookie, the consequence is easy to figure out. But I find myself trying to find a consequence over listening the first time over thinggs that don't have an apparent consequence, like telling her to put her dirty clothes in the hamper or going to the bathroom to get in the bath. Time outs don't mean anything to her! She doesn't like them, of course, but they don't change her behavior at all.

 

About doing a chore, ugh! This is what we battle over most. She MUST maintain control of every situation in some way.

 

Me: Julie, pick those clothes up off the floor and put them in your hamper, please.

Julie: OK, hold on, I just have to read this book.

Me: No. Don't touch the book. Right now, this minute, pick the clothes up and put them away.

Julie: I just need to do a big stretch first. Look how big my yawn is!

Me: Pick up the clothes and put them in the hamper.

Julie: But my arms are so tired!!!! I'll only do it if you hand me the clothes first!!!!!

Me: *head starts spinning around*

 

What's the consequence for not doing it the first time? Can you tell I've been thinking about this A LOT this week? We've had a few major altercations that I didn't handle well, and few minor ones where I held my ground and "won."

[Slartibartfast]

 

What in the world is a monkey back pack?! :D If you mean like a sling or carrier that goes on my back, no, that would be torture for us both. He's strictly self-locomotion.

 

It is like a leash for kids. It attaches like a back pack, they have some that look like animals.

 

I never had one for dd but if my ds acts like I did (despite a lot of "other discipline," it doesn't work) then I might need it. :lol:

[Mandamom]

I have the girl equivalent who is now 9 and it does get a little easier in some ways. I didn't take her to the library from the ages of 18 months until just about 5. I rearranged my schedule so that the only time I went was if dh was home from work (at the time working 15 hour days) or we were at my parent's house.

 

I definitely see the advantages of her strong-willed personality but sometimes in the moment I wonder how we will survive it. She was in her room 3 times yesterday :)

 

Anyway, I just wanted to share that you aren't alone.

 

I'm following up strong-willed dd9 with strong-willed ds3. *sigh*

[Ginevra]

But you can't be held captive by his behavior or exhausted from it.

 

Yes, I can! I'm positive! ;)

 

I don't think you can reason with a four year old on major issues... that is the reason I recommended holding his hand firmly to keep him off the floor.

 

I don't think so either...but not holding my hand throughout the library trip is not a major issue. I do make him hold my hand in certain circumstances, will even chuck him under my arm like a football if that's the only way to get him across a busy parking lot, say. But it's not worth driving myself mental when it's not a serious necessity. I don't want him to roll on the floor while I'm checking out books, but he most likely won't be killed or arrested for it, kwim?

 

Other forms of discipline are controversial and (if used correctly) won't destroy a strong will... but they do establish boundaries and expectations/accountability... but I know it is an uncomfortable idea for so many. That is why I worded it carefully.

 

And I totally appreciate the way you worded it. I am not 100% anti-physical in my views, but I have seen that an approach like that would not help ds. I truly believe it would establish nothing but mutual hatred. You can't feel love towards a child that you constantly have to physically impose upon. I have gone the "force" direction a few times, but I have always seen where it leads. It isn't where I want to go.

 

I have a strong willed daughter but never had such issues. I wish I had great nuggets of wisdom! You will have great advice for others as you learn & find the best way for you guys!;)

 

 

Hopefully, you won't take this badly, but perhaps you don't have a strong willed daughter. Such issues are what earns the description. ;) I am certain that God gave him to me to keep me from believing myself quite superior as a mother. With my other two easily-compliant children, I would surely think I had this mothering thing all sussed out.

[Pamela H in Texas]

What I found best for my ds from early toddlerhood (btw, another issue was that I was disabled when my kids were little so in a wheelchair at the mall, unable to chase after them in the front yard, etc so HAD to have control without depending on my body physically)....Anyway, what I found best was to give him as much control as possible while remaining in control myself (not that it wasn't exhausting still).

 

For example, one thing we did was "armslength." I said that and my kids were where I could touch them IMMEDIATELY. I also allowed my son to stay in armslength instead of holding my hand/sitting on my lap/whatever. This control suited him. The logical consequence was, of course, if he couldn't handle the responsibility, he lost the opportunity. I was VERY STRICT about it, VERY consistent.

 

That is one thing. We were VERY consistent with discipline. We used almost no punishment (maybe once a year or so?), but we were strict. The boundaries are EXTRA clear and firm allowing for safe freedom within them. But consequences (natural and logical as reasonable, built in as much as possible) were swift and consistent and meant to teach.

 

A few other things. We did Raising a Thinking Child to encourage thinking and problem solving. We tried to set up the situation for success. We were VERY proactive with teaching/guiding. We coached and practiced. Whatever it took.

 

BTW, there are borderline tough kids that respond to punitive discipline ("other methods"). I still think parents could choose to do better. But it seems everyone these days they think they have one of the toughest. It's almost a contest, but some of us really DO have tougher kids. These kids NEED better discipline. They need life skills and tools and plenty of practice. The very characteristics that make them more challenging at first will make them the most awesome young people and adults later on when directed positively. And often, they plain don't respond to "other methods." It often makes them worse because it takes away from good discipline that they really need, gets them focusing inappropriately, etc.

 

Anyway, it is worth the extra work to discipline well. The pay off is SO worth it.

Edited September 3, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Ginevra]

About doing a chore, ugh! This is what we battle over most. She MUST maintain control of every situation in some way.

 

Yeah, I'm wondering that, too. We have this, too, quite exactly as you described. I will help him clean up legos, or whatever, but this really bothers me, that he will refuse, dawdle, suddenly become crippled. I threw a bunch of plastic eggs away today for this reason. When he wanted them to begin with, I "warned" him that he would have to clean them all up. But when I told him to clean them up, he was suddenly crippled. I said I would throw them away. He didn't apparently believe me until I got out the trash bag and started pitching. He salvaged a few when his legs were miraculously healed. But, obviously, this is not always the solution.

[Ginevra]

Pamela, you have a lot of wisdom in your post and I so appreciate it. I have not ever done "armslength", but I have seen similar good results in the grocery store by letting him hold onto the cart. Sitting in the "baby" seat is murder to him, but he will usually comply with keeping his hand on the cart. If he doesn't stick with it, he has to sit in the "baby" set, which he despises. But I like that "armslength". That's a good cue word.

 

I do have difficulties with some consistencies. I can't decide what I need to require in certain situations and so I waffle on what I'm allowing. For example, I really want to be done with sippy cups. At this point, I think they are of the devil! We are mostly done with them in nearly all situations. However, if he is watching a movie, he will ask for one. He knows I'm inclined to say no, judging from his pleas. But I suppose I think, "Well, is it really so bad that he have milk for just this occassion only?" Understand, I'm not telling him no and then changing my mind, but he knows that in general, I am trying to quit them. I have told him when he is 5, they will all be gone...and we have made good progress as he doesn't ask for them regularly anymore. But, he finds a moment. And then I think I'm being draconian if I can't allow it for just this circumstance. Is that wishy-washy? Or is it merciful? I don't really know. :tongue_smilie:

[silvermine]

Remind him of the rules a lot. Be willing to drop off the books and leave if he doesn't behave. Be willing to take away privilages -- computer time, TV, dessert, whatever will make him upset -- if he misbehaves.

 

Strong willed 4 year olds are TIRING. It gets better. I loved 5. :) 6 is okay, but 5 was so much love and hugs and trying to actually do things to make me happy. :D

[AmeliaJade]

I'm the mother of three boys. They are 9, 6 & 2. My 2 year old makes me feel like I've never parented before. I honestly have no idea what I'm doing half the time. My oldest was a breeze. My next one was a bit tougher but not by much, but the youngest? Yikes! I used to laugh at the families on Super Nanny. I'm not laughin anymore.

[CalicoKat]

Really. I'm just so over it some days. I have a notion that one day, he will be a strong, tenacious, decisive man, but right now it really bites sometimes. Did I mention he is merely 4? I have been amazed by his ability to outlast me since he was 7 months old.

 

It was the library today that really just did it. I'm sure I'm not taking him to the library again until he is 17. I never get out of the library happy if he is along. And I hardly ever get to choose my own books unless I go another night without him. He will not walk quietly and near me where I need to go. He lays on the floor and rolls around. He is constantly too loud. We always end up checking out at least several absurd books because he thinks he absolutely has to have this totally unsuitable book.

 

Here is a scene from today: First, I could not find him because he left while I was on the computer catalog. (And what is up with that thing? I can't make heads or tails of it anymore!) I spotted him at the end of an aisle and called to him, but I'm trying not to call too loudly, because we're in the study section. He hears me, but walks further away anyway. I trot down the row and hiss at him to stay with me and he is striding purposefully along, saying he wants to check out a book for Daddy. I manage to steer him to a shelf where there are fishing books, to make good on his mission, but that will not do, because actually, he has a very specific book in mind. Again, he is walking briskly away from me in aim of this Nascar book. I had to abandon my little book cart thingy so I could trot after him like an idiot, as he walks ever-more quickly away. I reach out and snatch his arm with the Vulcan Grip of Death and reel him towards me. I try to work out the getting-a-book-for-Daddy thing, but now he has a different plan. He wants to find his brother for some purpose.

 

At this point, I am just trying to gather the chicks around so we can flee as soon as possible. I feel so impotent - can't even direct my 4-year-old through the library and it would have been rather against the point for either one of us to be loud and insistant. Honestly, I was mad as hell by the time we were finally in the car.

I don't go to the libarary with all my children any longer--not after the last time we went I had to climb a ladder to get my 4yo ds off the top of the bookshelf. :D

 

Saturday library trip WITH DADDY! Yea!

[EKS]

My older son was like that. It was completely exhausting. He has since ended up with an ADHD diagnosis, which I'm sure had something to do with his behavior back then. I was so glad my younger son was nothing like that. If he had been I probably would have ended up jumping off a bridge or something.

[LG Gone Wild]

All of my kids are strong willed. It's so unfair but I have to admit, they get it from me and a little from dh. I always attributed our difficult childhoods to our parents, turns out it is genetic.

 

What is up with these parents who have calm, cool, and collected children?

 

I don't have enough time to post on all the publicly humiliating experiences I've had. I know there are a few library ones ... as recently as last week I believe. :glare:

[Mom-ninja.]

I am certain that God gave him to me to keep me from believing myself quite superior as a mother. With my other two easily-compliant children, I would surely think I had this mothering thing all sussed out.

 

I say this all the time. When I just had my first ds, I was quite smug with my mothering skills. I would "tsk tsk" when I saw parents handling their kids who were "out of control."

 

Then enter ds #2. My, oh, my what a slice of humble pie!

 

 

 

A lot of this sounds familiar. I need to get an egg timer.

 

I am loving the timer. Sometimes it can be a game. Can you get all the legos put away in 3 minutes? Let's see!

 

Sometimes I just state that he has X amount of time to do something.

 

KH, what are your consequences? Nothing seems to matter to my DD3! Obviously, if we're fighting over something like whether she can watch TV or have a cookie, the consequence is easy to figure out. But I find myself trying to find a consequence over listening the first time over thinggs that don't have an apparent consequence, like telling her to put her dirty clothes in the hamper or going to the bathroom to get in the bath. Time outs don't mean anything to her! She doesn't like them, of course, but they don't change her behavior at all.

 

If I'm at a loss for a consequence I send him to his bed. He hates it. Other times I try to make it correlate. If he doesn't get into the bath when told he then has to take a shower instead. He hates showers.

 

About doing a chore, ugh! This is what we battle over most. She MUST maintain control of every situation in some way.

 

 

So give her some control, or at least what she feels like is control. Depending on the chore, I will tell ds what needs to be done and let him decide when to do it. If it's picking up dirty clothes I don't set the timer. Instead, when he wants to do something such as play with Legos, I simply ask him if he's finished putting his dirty clothes away. If he has, he may play Legos. If he hasn't I tell him, "Yes, you may play with your Legos after your dirty clothes are put away." There have been times when he has really drug it out, and gone all day without doing something. Then when I announce bedtime, he is aghast because he wasn't able to do anything he wanted that day.

 

I also make it clear that everyone must help in the house. If certain chores aren't done on time, then that means *I* have to take the time to do it. This takes time away that I could be spending with them. If he doesn't do his portion of cleaning out the dishwasher, I have to do it so I can put the dirty dishes in. I will explain to him that I can't read to him, or play that game because I have to use that extra time doing his chores.

 

I have found that if I tell him how much I *need* his help, and I really emphasize how much he does help me, it gives him a sense of pride. Statements like, "Wow, you are so fast at picking up clothes. Now I can get the laundry in the washer. You really helped me. It would have taken me hours to pick up those clothes, but you did it in record breaking time."

 

"I was able to get the kitchen clean because you put the dishes away. Now, we have a nice clean kitchen to cook in. Let's make dinner together in our lovely kitchen. I could use your help washing and cutting the broccoli."

 

 

Me: Julie, pick those clothes up off the floor and put them in your hamper, please.

Julie: OK, hold on, I just have to read this book.

 

Here's where I would have stopped it.

Take book. "You may read this book after you have picked up your clothes. It looks like a neat book. I'd like to read it with you." Start thumbing through the book where only you can see it, and make little comments. "Oh, wow look at that." "Ha! That's funny." "Neat."

Make her want to read the book that way.

 

Julie: I just need to do a big stretch first. Look how big my yawn is!

"That is a big yawn. You must be tired. Go lie down in bed."

or

"That is a big yawn. When you're done picking up your clothes let's measure how big it is."

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm wondering that, too. We have this, too, quite exactly as you described. I will help him clean up legos, or whatever, but this really bothers me, that he will refuse, dawdle, suddenly become crippled. I threw a bunch of plastic eggs away today for this reason. When he wanted them to begin with, I "warned" him that he would have to clean them all up. But when I told him to clean them up, he was suddenly crippled. I said I would throw them away. He didn't apparently believe me until I got out the trash bag and started pitching. He salvaged a few when his legs were miraculously healed. But, obviously, this is not always the solution.

 

I have thrown things away as well. He is not allowed to save something from the trash once it's in there. If it's something that I don't want to throw away, I store it for a long time.

 

 

I do have difficulties with some consistencies. I can't decide what I need to require in certain situations and so I waffle on what I'm allowing. For example, I really want to be done with sippy cups. At this point, I think they are of the devil! We are mostly done with them in nearly all situations. However, if he is watching a movie, he will ask for one. He knows I'm inclined to say no, judging from his pleas. But I suppose I think, "Well, is it really so bad that he have milk for just this occassion only?" Understand, I'm not telling him no and then changing my mind, but he knows that in general, I am trying to quit them. I have told him when he is 5, they will all be gone...and we have made good progress as he doesn't ask for them regularly anymore. But, he finds a moment. And then I think I'm being draconian if I can't allow it for just this circumstance. Is that wishy-washy? Or is it merciful? I don't really know. :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, ask yourself why you want him to be done with sippy cups? Is it for health reasons? If not then why? Pick and choose the battles. Is this a worthy battle? If it is then offer him a substitute for what he is giving up. A sippy can be a comfort for a child. They may use it for soothing. If he is, what can replace it? Perhaps sitting on your lap and getting cuddles, a backrub, brushing his hair, etc. My boys love it when I brush their hair. :tongue_smilie: If you take away a method of meeting a need (such as comfort) you still have to meet that need in some other way.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Kleine Hexe

[Vida Winter]

I had my most challenging child first. After that it got better (gradually). Not really due to my experience, just their personalities. For instance when I took my first child to the grand opening of a new library we had the honor of filling out their first "accident report" -- she tried to climb a videotape stand and one fell on her forehead; a flesh wound resulted.:glare:

 

Of all the parenting advice I can muster having children from age 30 on down to 5, I can say with certainty: Don't take your youngest child to the library for a while. Just don't do that to yourself. It won't hurt him to wait, and you'll be better off not having endured it.

[Ginevra]

Well, ask yourself why you want him to be done with sippy cups? Is it for health reasons? If not then why? Pick and choose the battles. Is this a worthy battle? If it is then offer him a substitute for what he is giving up. A sippy can be a comfort for a child. They may use it for soothing. If he is, what can replace it? Perhaps sitting on your lap and getting cuddles, a backrub, brushing his hair, etc. My boys love it when I brush their hair. :tongue_smilie: If you take away a method of meeting a need (such as comfort) you still have to meet that need in some other way.

 

The sippy cup issue is mainly for the sake of his teeth. He had 4 cavities before he was 4 years old and that is when I committed to eliminating sippies. There is also the issue of finding a rotten sippy cup of milk down between a couch cushion, under the seat of the car, etc. The rule became: if you want milk, you have to sit in the kitchen with an open cup. I gave him his very own special water bottle, and he could have that somewhere besides the kitchen if thirst is the problem. We had a lot of tears and unhappiness just getting this far. But, then it's if he's watching a movie, he wants milk, but he doesn't want to leave the movie, SWIM? I'm not willing to let him have an open cup in the family room, because then that is breaking a different rule. So, I could make him have only the option of water in his water bottle, or tell him he has to come in the kitchen for milk in an open cup. This is where I waffle, because it just seems excessively mean. Will it kill him to have one sippy cup of milk on one evening a week? Or should I refuse this request on the principle that I'm trying to quit the cups and just let him wail and beg all he wants?

[Ginevra]

 

An idea for the library... if your library system allows it, you might think about reserving books to pick up once a week or so. You might suggest to him that he can look at the catalog online (at home) to choose his books-- and then just pick up the books from the library.

 

Yes, I have been doing this for my own books. I think I've pretty much decided he is not going there for a long while. I'll go when I can just take the two olders.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, on the complying question, a couple things:

 

1) The word NOW had a lot of power. With my friend's 6yo (I school him), we used "do it now" (consistency between the two households). I've also said "it's not up for discussion" a few times, though really, I'm cool with discussion after obedience so sometimes it's "discussion after compliance."

 

2) Having them answer with a specific answer and/or repeat what you told them is a sure way to know they "got" it. A lot of times, the communication is one way between people. A "yes ma'am" or "okay" or "I will pick up legos" makes sure they heard. It also helps with "putting them in their place." Some people are uncomfy with that idea, but some of these tough kids really DO need their role reminded regularly.

 

3) Build in logical consequences. Sometimes it's as simple as the world stops til compliance. Other times, you may name something such as "if we get out the door in time, we'll have time to stop by the park after our errands." The logical consequence is then that the park time gets reduced or cut altogether if he decides he doesn't need shoes.

 

But don't forget that the world STOPS til compliance other times. My ds wouldn't want to wear shoes outside. I was fine with that. However, he kept getting burrs in his feet and he would SCREAM very loudly for a long time about it, fighting me about taking them out. So I made the rule that he would wear shoes outside. Anytime he'd ask to go outside, I'd simply reply "shoes" (if more than one time, you can use "asked and answered"). Sometimes he'd sit there sad, but he just wasn't going out til they were on, period. In time, it became "Mama, I have my shoes on, may I go outside?" YUP :)

 

4) One thing that worked well for compliance was to give choices and warnings. Choices are just limited options. Most people do that anyway. We just used it more, probably. But on warnings? "Tyler, it is 5:45. By 6pm, you need to be in the bath." That gave him a few minutes to wrap his brain around the command. Also, because we usually respected his time and timing, he understood better that when we told him to do something now to do it immediately. We weren't just overlording immediate control over him all the time.

 

Now, on the sippy cups? If you've decided that 5yrs old is the end of that, I wouldn't worry about anything til then. If you aren't comfy with that decision, sit him down, tell him you've rethought, then get rid of the things. But I'd either get rid of them (or if you need to keep one or two for visitors, put them separate) or not let it be a struggle within you each time. Make the decision, do it. :)

[debbiedoestyping]

Really. I'm just so over it some days. I have a notion that one day, he will be a strong, tenacious, decisive man, but right now it really bites sometimes. Did I mention he is merely 4? I have been amazed by his ability to outlast me since he was 7 months old.

 

It was the library today that really just did it. I'm sure I'm not taking him to the library again until he is 17. I never get out of the library happy if he is along. And I hardly ever get to choose my own books unless I go another night without him. He will not walk quietly and near me where I need to go. He lays on the floor and rolls around. He is constantly too loud. We always end up checking out at least several absurd books because he thinks he absolutely has to have this totally unsuitable book.

 

Here is a scene from today: First, I could not find him because he left while I was on the computer catalog. (And what is up with that thing? I can't make heads or tails of it anymore!) I spotted him at the end of an aisle and called to him, but I'm trying not to call too loudly, because we're in the study section. He hears me, but walks further away anyway. I trot down the row and hiss at him to stay with me and he is striding purposefully along, saying he wants to check out a book for Daddy. I manage to steer him to a shelf where there are fishing books, to make good on his mission, but that will not do, because actually, he has a very specific book in mind. Again, he is walking briskly away from me in aim of this Nascar book. I had to abandon my little book cart thingy so I could trot after him like an idiot, as he walks ever-more quickly away. I reach out and snatch his arm with the Vulcan Grip of Death and reel him towards me. I try to work out the getting-a-book-for-Daddy thing, but now he has a different plan. He wants to find his brother for some purpose.

 

At this point, I am just trying to gather the chicks around so we can flee as soon as possible. I feel so impotent - can't even direct my 4-year-old through the library and it would have been rather against the point for either one of us to be loud and insistant. Honestly, I was mad as hell by the time we were finally in the car.

 

What I did (my DS is ADHD, BTW) when my DS was the same age, was to schedule some visits to the library that were solely for "behaviour management purposes".

 

I told him at home what the rules were at the library (quiet voice, stay with me, stay standing, total # of books he would be allowed to check out, ect), and that if he didn't follow them that we would be leaving immediately. When we got to the library, before we entered the building, I reminded him again about the rules and consequences. The VERY FIRST TIME that he broke the rules, we left (and yes, he was screaming while we left). We didn't return for at least a day, but when we did we repeated the steps. Rundown of rules at home, reminder outside of building, and immediately left if/when he broke the rules.

 

It took about a month of these visits (and not all of them were unsuccessful) before he got the idea and was consistently (like 49 out of 50 visits) well-behaved for the library. This technique, BTW, also worked for the grocery store as well.

[ariasmommy]

Yes, I can! I'm positive! ;)

 

:iagree:

 

I don't think so either...but not holding my hand throughout the library trip is not a major issue. I do make him hold my hand in certain circumstances, will even chuck him under my arm like a football if that's the only way to get him across a busy parking lot, say. But it's not worth driving myself mental when it's not a serious necessity. I don't want him to roll on the floor while I'm checking out books, but he most likely won't be killed or arrested for it, kwim?

 

Glad I'm not the only one with a kid who rolls on the floor in public places!:D

 

 

And I totally appreciate the way you worded it. I am not 100% anti-physical in my views, but I have seen that an approach like that would not help ds. I truly believe it would establish nothing but mutual hatred. You can't feel love towards a child that you constantly have to physically impose upon. I have gone the "force" direction a few times, but I have always seen where it leads. It isn't where I want to go.

 

Finding this is the case with my ds, too.

 

 

 

 

Hopefully, you won't take this badly, but perhaps you don't have a strong willed daughter. Such issues are what earns the description. ;) I am certain that God gave him to me to keep me from believing myself quite superior as a mother. With my other two easily-compliant children, I would surely think I had this mothering thing all sussed out.

Yes, mothering a strong-willed child (or two in my case) is very humbling.:grouphug:

Edited September 3, 2009 by ariasmommy

[ariasmommy]

It DOES get better :) Mine is now 14 and a wonderful young man. At four, I wondered whether either of would make it this far. Four was THE absolute worse year though 6 was pretty rough. Things got much better as he actually started GETTING the teaching and practicing it better.

 

But I was angry and sad and scared and worried and....it was HORRIBLE.

 

BTW, when my son was 4 in the library, I got onto him and he moved away from me. I hissed at him. He turned to me and quite loudly growled, "I DESPISE you." I about fell over (btw, this child spoke late, usually used sign language, and was 99% unintelligible articulation wise....all except this sentence! LOL).

 

You might look at my post in the "childhood" thread. Maybe it'll be a little inspiring?

 

But really, four is rough anyway, much worse than two ever thought of being and then with some of these more challenging kiddos...wow!

 

But it will work out. You'r just going to be exhausted between now and then :)

 

Very encouraging post - thank you!:)

[Dirtroad]

Hopefully, you won't take this badly, but perhaps you don't have a strong willed daughter. Such issues are what earns the description. ;) I am certain that God gave him to me to keep me from believing myself quite superior as a mother. With my other two easily-compliant children, I would surely think I had this mothering thing all sussed out.

 

No she is strong willed & it is a battle. However, I am the parent & she is the child. It is my job to teach & nurture & train her. It is her job to learn, grow, and be obedient. Accountability & consistency are main issues. Acting up is immediate removal from the situation and immediate accountability. I wil not struggle with her these type areas - she loses.

 

My Mom & my grandmother didn't tolerate such behavior. I guess I had good models. My brother was a handful. (whew!) Had lots of great lessons watching him constantly making his own life miserable! ;) He had such a hard time learning.

 

I will say that I have had Moms who think some kids work it out younger and become dependable, strong young people. They seem to have worries about the ones who do not.. thinking their fight come when they are older and that it is much worse on the parent. I dunno! Might be superstition. However, soem strongwilled children become GREAT leaders. I think helping them manage the will is the key... not destroying it or giving it control.

 

I bet you are doing great! Sounds good that Dad is getting in there too.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Mom-ninja.]

The sippy cup issue is mainly for the sake of his teeth. He had 4 cavities before he was 4 years old and that is when I committed to eliminating sippies. There is also the issue of finding a rotten sippy cup of milk down between a couch cushion, under the seat of the car, etc. The rule became: if you want milk, you have to sit in the kitchen with an open cup. I gave him his very own special water bottle, and he could have that somewhere besides the kitchen if thirst is the problem. We had a lot of tears and unhappiness just getting this far. But, then it's if he's watching a movie, he wants milk, but he doesn't want to leave the movie, SWIM? I'm not willing to let him have an open cup in the family room, because then that is breaking a different rule. So, I could make him have only the option of water in his water bottle, or tell him he has to come in the kitchen for milk in an open cup. This is where I waffle, because it just seems excessively mean. Will it kill him to have one sippy cup of milk on one evening a week? Or should I refuse this request on the principle that I'm trying to quit the cups and just let him wail and beg all he wants?

 

Well, how about putting water into the sippy instead of a water bottle? Just simply tell him no more milk in the sippy because it makes his teeth sick. Once you set the rule of no milk in sippy stick to it....no exceptions.

[melissel]

Thanks, Pamela and Kleine Hexe, you gave me a lot to think about, particularly the idea that the world stops if the task isn't accomplished. We already had two struggles this morning. The first was over putting on underwear--actually not a very big deal to me, but I had already told her to go do it, so I had to hold to it. She tried to sit on my lap and I wouldn't even let her get halfway. We agreed that as long as I didn't put my laptop back on my lap in her place, she would run and put them on, and she did. Then I told her to clean up her money box and the new little purse her grandmother gave her, and that I was only telling her once. Then they became mine. She said OK, and proceeded to start doing something else. I quietly picked up the money, packed it all up, and headed toward my room. She threw herself in front of me and begged for a second chance. I said she could have one more, put all the parts exactly where they were, and sat back down. She cleaned everything up, packed it all into the box, took it into her room, and PUT IT EXACTLY WHERE IT BELONGED! I shouldn't have allowed the second chance there, but I've been so lax about the first-time compliance that I wanted to give her a chance to do good now that she knows I'm getting serious, and she did...this time!

 

I'm sure I'll be posting again on this subject soon. Quill, maybe by then you'll be in a position to give me advice on dealing with the 4-year-old version? :D

Edited September 3, 2009 by melissel

[Irene Lynn]

Just a quick thought. Have you ever tried the cups with straws or the ones from Tupperware that have lids that are made for straws. Drinking from a straw helps to keep the liquid from sitting on those front teeth as much. I always use a straw when I drink pop.

 

I had a super obedient/compliant, very verbal and tuned into her thoughts, emotions, and needs child first. Now I have her opposite. :) He is only 2.5, but I am working on training him as best as I can from the start. I don't know how many times I have needed to remove a kicking, screaming child from the library, church, museums, stores. Just recently I was called to his 2yo class at church, because someone had had the gall to ask him to come color a paper and now they were afraid he would hurt himself in his fit. And less than a week ago, he was in a play area having a great time and behaving so well, when all at once I saw him grab a 1yog off of one of those plastic play things with a little slide and toss her to the floor. As soon as I saw him head toward her I was on my feet, but I didn't get there in time. Fortunately it was a completely padded play area and the slide was very short, so she wasn't really hurt, just shocked, I think. He wasn't even mad or anything. She was just sitting in his way on "his pirate ship" and I guess he didn't think she would move. She probably wouldn't have moved (and didn't need to move either), but you don't toss children to the floor!!! He is big, strong, and very physically capable, oh, and LOUD. (But I sure do love the little guy.) So I don't have any great advice, since I am behind you.

[Mom-ninja.]

Well, I lost my inner battle with my temper today. Sigh.

 

DH has been out of town since Sunday. My eldest is sick with a fever and vomiting. The baby is cranky, and having problems sleeping. I two hours trying to get him to sleep. He finally did, and in burst my 5 yr old from outside. He saw the baby sleeping in the swing, ran over, and squeezed the baby's cheeks before I could stop him. The baby starts *screaming* and so did I. I yelled at my 5 yr old to go outside, and not come back in until he knew how to behave. Sigh. Not the best way to handle that. I spent the next 45 minutes trying to calm the baby, and nurse him back to sleep.

 

I have now gotten ds from outside, apologized for yelling at him like that, and put him bed for quiet time. I *need* quiet time right now.

 

It is so hard for me to not yell. Blech.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Then I told her to clean up her money box and the new little purse her grandmother gave her, and that I was only telling her once. Then they became mine. She said OK, and proceeded to start doing something else. I quietly picked up the money, packed it all up, and headed toward my room. She threw herself in front of me and begged for a second chance. I said she could have one more, put all the parts exactly where they were, and sat back down. She cleaned everything up, packed it all into the box, took it into her room, and PUT IT EXACTLY WHERE IT BELONGED! I shouldn't have allowed the second chance there, but I've been so lax about the first-time compliance that I wanted to give her a chance to do good now that she knows I'm getting serious, and she did...this time!

 

I TOTALLY understand wanting to give her a second chance. You are a nice person and didn't want her to lose it. However, by allowing chances, you train a child not to listen til that chance. Now, if you are fine with her regularly waiting til the 2nd time you tell her something, then there might not be an issue. She does learn that you mean what you say, at least by the second time, if you follow through the 2nd time. However, if you would prefer not to have her wait til the 2nd time, you really have to be the "meanie" for awhile and she gets the consequence after the first time. Then she knows that you mean what you say the first time. To me, that part is a safety issue.

 

But a lot of people really feel the need for a 2nd chance and/or warning. As long as you are consistent and don't get frustrated because they take you up on it by waiting, it CAN be okay.

 

BTW, on these things, I don't usually keep the item very long. A block that was thrown can sit on top of the fridge for a little while, but later in the day, I'm fine with giving it back to the kiddo if he can tell me why it was put up there and how it can not be taken again. The consequence is losing the priviledge of playing with it right then. It becomes punitive when the consequence lasts very long. Now, if there is a second time, I do make it a longer period of time, but....A few times with older kids, we've had to have an indefinite situation such as "you just aren't ready for that responsibility and opportunity; we'll try again in a couple months." But that really isn't a situation with a 4 or 6 yr old.

 

ETA: Kleine don't feel bad. Stuff happens. And you showed how to apologize for a mistake. I have gone the other way--extra quiet. That seems to work better anyway and isn't disrespectful. Tuesday, I sent the 6yo to sit on the back steps (my hubby was outside) for awhile. Today, said 6yo is taking a quiet time which he did readily so I must not be the only one feeling he (and I) needed it.

Edited September 3, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Reya]

Here is a scene from today: x (And what is up with that thing? I can't make heads or tails of it anymore!) I spotted him at the end of an aisle and called to him, but I'm trying not to call too loudly, because we're in the study section. He hears me, but walks further away anyway. I trot down the row and hiss at him to stay with me and he is striding purposefully along, saying he wants to check out a book for Daddy. I manage to steer him to a shelf where there are fishing books, to make good on his mission, but that will not do, because actually, he has a very specific book in mind. Again, he is walking briskly away from me in aim of this Nascar book. I had to abandon my little book cart thingy so I could trot after him like an idiot, as he walks ever-more quickly away. I reach out and snatch his arm with the Vulcan Grip of Death and reel him towards me. I try to work out the getting-a-book-for-Daddy thing, but now he has a different plan. He wants to find his brother for some purpose.

 

 

I have VERY strong-willed children, but you're encouraging this behavior.

 

1. He misbehaves: First, I could not find him because he left while I was on the computer catalog.

 

2. He defies you: He hears me, but walks further away anyway.

 

3. He disrespect you: I trot down the row and hiss at him to stay with me and he is striding purposefully along, saying he wants to check out a book for Daddy.

 

4. You reward him: I manage to steer him to a shelf where there are fishing books, to make good on his mission, but that will not do, because actually, he has a very specific book in mind.

 

5. You give him control and are no longer a parent but are at his mercy: Again, he is walking briskly away from me in aim of this Nascar book. I had to abandon my little book cart thingy so I could trot after him like an idiot, as he walks ever-more quickly away.

 

6. Now there is a power struggle: I reach out and snatch his arm with the Vulcan Grip of Death and reel him towards me.

 

7. You are still not the parent as you negotiate for control: I try to work out the getting-a-book-for-Daddy thing, but now he has a different plan.

 

8. Now he know he's the one in charge and he doesn't have to listen to you at all: He wants to find his brother for some purpose.

 

#2 is where it should stop. Personally, I would have snatched him up by his heels, hauled him out of the library, and spanked him silly for deliberately ignoring me. If you don't believe in spanking, then you should drop all books then, he should lose any books he's already picked out, and you should take him home right then and put him in his room.

 

The next time you go to the library, I'd force him to wear a child leash, and I'd make a big deal of how he has to wear it like a baby since he can't be trusted.

 

 

Problem solved.

[melissel]

Well, I lost my inner battle with my temper today. Sigh.

 

DH has been out of town since Sunday. My eldest is sick with a fever and vomiting. The baby is cranky, and having problems sleeping. I two hours trying to get him to sleep. He finally did, and in burst my 5 yr old from outside. He saw the baby sleeping in the swing, ran over, and squeezed the baby's cheeks before I could stop him. The baby starts *screaming* and so did I. I yelled at my 5 yr old to go outside, and not come back in until he knew how to behave. Sigh. Not the best way to handle that. I spent the next 45 minutes trying to calm the baby, and nurse him back to sleep.

 

I have now gotten ds from outside, apologized for yelling at him like that, and put him bed for quiet time. I *need* quiet time right now.

 

It is so hard for me to not yell. Blech.

 

:grouphug: I'm right there with you.

[melissel]

What I did (my DS is ADHD, BTW) when my DS was the same age, was to schedule some visits to the library that were solely for "behaviour management purposes".

 

I told him at home what the rules were at the library (quiet voice, stay with me, stay standing, total # of books he would be allowed to check out, ect), and that if he didn't follow them that we would be leaving immediately. When we got to the library, before we entered the building, I reminded him again about the rules and consequences. The VERY FIRST TIME that he broke the rules, we left (and yes, he was screaming while we left). We didn't return for at least a day, but when we did we repeated the steps. Rundown of rules at home, reminder outside of building, and immediately left if/when he broke the rules.

 

It took about a month of these visits (and not all of them were unsuccessful) before he got the idea and was consistently (like 49 out of 50 visits) well-behaved for the library. This technique, BTW, also worked for the grocery store as well.

 

I just saw this, and I was thinking this too, if you have the ability to leave the other kids home (or can bribe them to stay with you and just hover in case you need to crack down and leave). This is good advice.

 

I TOTALLY understand wanting to give her a second chance. You are a nice person and didn't want her to lose it. However, by allowing chances, you train a child not to listen til that chance. Now, if you are fine with her regularly waiting til the 2nd time you tell her something, then there might not be an issue. She does learn that you mean what you say, at least by the second time, if you follow through the 2nd time. However, if you would prefer not to have her wait til the 2nd time, you really have to be the "meanie" for awhile and she gets the consequence after the first time. Then she knows that you mean what you say the first time. To me, that part is a safety issue.

 

But a lot of people really feel the need for a 2nd chance and/or warning. As long as you are consistent and don't get frustrated because they take you up on it by waiting, it CAN be okay.

 

Thanks, I know I should have. I just wanted her to be able to do it right, you know? I praised her for doing the job, and when I found out she didn't throw the thing on her bed like she usually does, I made an even bigger deal out of it. She's so used to negative attention that she really sparkled under the positive attention, and I was glad for that. But you are still right. I'm working on it! I spent many years not having to set firm boundaries for my DD6 because she either already has her own or just needs a basic explanation of why or why not. The little one has just knocked me for such a loop :glare:

Edited September 3, 2009 by melissel

[melissel]

1. He misbehaves: First, I could not find him because he left while I was on the computer catalog.

 

2. He defies you: He hears me, but walks further away anyway.

 

3. He disrespect you: I trot down the row and hiss at him to stay with me and he is striding purposefully along, saying he wants to check out a book for Daddy.

 

4. You reward him: I manage to steer him to a shelf where there are fishing books, to make good on his mission, but that will not do, because actually, he has a very specific book in mind.

 

5. You give him control and are no longer a parent but are at his mercy: Again, he is walking briskly away from me in aim of this Nascar book. I had to abandon my little book cart thingy so I could trot after him like an idiot, as he walks ever-more quickly away.

 

6. Now there is a power struggle: I reach out and snatch his arm with the Vulcan Grip of Death and reel him towards me.

 

7. You are still not the parent as you negotiate for control: I try to work out the getting-a-book-for-Daddy thing, but now he has a different plan.

 

8. Now he know he's the one in charge and he doesn't have to listen to you at all: He wants to find his brother for some purpose.

 

#2 is where it should stop.

 

I do agree with this, but it's only very recently become this clear to me as well. Until this last month, I would have gone crazy trying to "honor DD's needs" in this scenario. I finally got tired of ignoring my own *sigh*

[tdeveson]

It gets better. When he was little, my son put me through very similar situations. While I was reading your posts, I started clenching my teeth. But he's 10 now and even though he still has a strong will, he is much, much easier to get along with. As he matured, he learned how to be cooperative and go with the flow. I will tell you, it was not fun from 3 to 6. I'm sure I lost at least a week of life for each of those three years.

 

Here's what worked for us. We went everywhere prepared to leave at a moment's notice. It was a chore, but it was a temporary thing and we just bit the bullet and dealt with it as necessary.

 

We'd go to the library. I would ask my son to stay by me and offered to find "his" books first. He'd stride off and glare at me. I would instantly sweep him up, leave the books behind, walk out the door, into the car and immediately go home. No yelling, no big scenes (except the one he treated us to from the back seat when he realized we were really leaving.) Hours later, when he was calm, I'd find some time to bring it up and explain to him that the reason we left is because he walked away when I asked him not to. Nothing else. We did this for months. We found relief almost immediately. Little by little our trips out with him lasted longer and longer. By the time he was about seven, we could go anywhere you can go with a rambunctious 7-year-old boy.

 

On the other hand, my sister had a son just like mine. She yelled and screamed, threatened and timed-out. And half the time she just gave in. He turned out fine too. ;)

 

I think the thing to remember is that they get over that and things will get easier. Hang in there.

Edited September 3, 2009 by tdeveson

[tdeveson]

She cleaned everything up, packed it all into the box, took it into her room, and PUT IT EXACTLY WHERE IT BELONGED! I shouldn't have allowed the second chance there, but I've been so lax about the first-time compliance that I wanted to give her a chance to do good now that she knows I'm getting serious, and she did...this time!

 

No way! Your instinct was right. What kind of message do you send a child if there are never, ever any second chances. You did right, and in the end your goal was achieved. More importantly, now *she* knows she's capable of handling herself successfully.

 

That wasn't wimpy. That was wise.

[melissel]

No way! Your instinct was right. What kind of message do you send a child if there are never, ever any second chances. You did right, and in the end your goal was achieved. More importantly, now *she* knows she's capable of handling herself successfully.

 

That wasn't wimpy. That was wise.

 

Thank you. I'm very happy with how it worked out, although I can see where Pamela's coming from. DD is definitely a kid who will spot the second chances and then there goes the first-time compliance. It's such a fine line to walk, isn't it? Because these challenging kids, they are SO smart! They've got our numbers, LOL!

[Mom-ninja.]

It's such a fine line to walk, isn't it? Because these challenging kids, they are SO smart! They've got our numbers, LOL!

 

 

Oh my goodness, yes! It is a very fine line, and these kiddos know it. :glare: They are so very very smart!

 

My ds did this just the other day. He did something he was not supposed to do. I can't even remember anymore, but I will never forget what he did after. I walked over to him, bent down to his eye level, and began to explain why he couldn't do such and such. He turned his head away from me. I told him to look at me. He turned his head toward me but closed his eyes. I told him to open his eyes and look me while I talk to him. He opened his eyes, and then when I started talking, he closed *one* eye. Seriously. Now how's that for seeing just how far he can push the limit? I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

[KrissiK]

I'm an overwhelmed Mom as well. I wouldn't say my kids are super-strong willed, but they are very high maintainence and I find myself getting more and more frustrated and getting on them more, which is not solving the problem. The problem is, I don't know what to do about it. I saw a quote once that describes me to a "t" - "Being a mother is like being pecked to death by a chicken!"

[Pamela H in Texas]

A couple thoughts.

 

First, I do agree that a second chance here or there is no big deal. However, we can let that be more often with our more typical kids but the really challenging ones will take advantage. I'm not so hard that I don't EVERY allow a second chance though.

 

Second, I agree with Reya that the original scenario went on WAY too long. I might be fairly gentle about the first thing but I think my own temper and temperment works in my child's favor usually. Though I can and do discipline without hitting or yelling or most other punishment 99+% of the time, I most certainly am very FIRM (and if you ask my fave 6yo "mean" too). With my daughter, it was unnecessary to be sooooo strict and firm. Thankfully it was rarely an issue as the first thing rarely happened and the second thing never would. With my son and this 6yo? I am glad I naturally am a (I'm seriously searching for a word that doesn't have a bad word in it and cannot find one that fits so perfectly) hard@ss. It's worked well for the 14yo and makes life easier with the 6yo because we both know what to expect. There is freedom, safety, and security within boundaries.

[melissel]

Oh my goodness, yes! It is a very fine line, and these kiddos know it. :glare: They are so very very smart!

 

My ds did this just the other day. He did something he was not supposed to do. I can't even remember anymore, but I will never forget what he did after. I walked over to him, bent down to his eye level, and began to explain why he couldn't do such and such. He turned his head away from me. I told him to look at me. He turned his head toward me but closed his eyes. I told him to open his eyes and look me while I talk to him. He opened his eyes, and then when I started talking, he closed *one* eye. Seriously. Now how's that for seeing just how far he can push the limit? I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

ROFL!!!! Mine does that too. She's never closed one eye, but she'll look at the ceiling, out the window, fiddle with her clothes, look at her. When she's finally run out of options, she's been known to scream, "JUST STOP TALKING TO ME!!!!!" :lol: (but really, :cursing:)

[Ginevra]

I'm in favor of the concept of taking him to the library specifically for training purposes, and I may do that. However, I don't get taking him straight out. To begin with, it is exceedingly unfair to my other two children. Nothing engenders sibling hatred like one child making it so the other two never get their own pleasures. Secondly, who can afford this waste of time? This is quite the more a punishment to myself than to my son! I have heard of the advice to leave a grocery store, for example, but I could never, ever feature someone actually doing this. You really leave the ice cream melting in the cart and relinquish your own need to purchase food? Who here really does this? Who says, "Yes, I know I need ground round, but since Johnny is not cooperating, I'll just leave it all sit here, have cereal for dinner tonight and hope we have time tomorrow." :confused:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Well, I prefer other discipline outside of leaving especially in situations where that would be the goal of the child, I do think that going out to the car to discipline is often a good idea. You then go back in, after re-coaching kiddo. But I disagree with the issue about siblings. The natural consequence of a child being the reason we have to leave the park is the sibling is mad. IRL, our actions effect other people. I think shielding kids from that can be much more problematic. Of course, the goal would be to minimize it as I think you're right that if every month for 5 years, two kids lost out because of one, I do think it'd mess with their relationship.