s/o - The Problem I Have with Calvinism

[KingM]

23The LORD said to her,

"Two nations are in your womb;

And two peoples will be separated from your body;

And one people shall be stronger than the other;

And the older shall serve the younger."

- Genesis 25:23

 

 

Someone used this verse as support of Calvinism in another thread but I'm not picking on the poster in particular, just using the verse as an example of what I find wrong with Calvinist thinking. I cannot reconcile a righteous and good Lord with one who would determine before one is born if they will be master or slave, good or evil, saved or ****ed.

 

Actually, as a universalist, I have a problem with any sort of eternal torment, even for the worst, most depraved beings. I don't think any crime is worthy of eternal punishment, let alone the crime of merely believing the wrong thing about the nature of God. To say that God has decided before some are born who will be suffering this eternal torment, compounds the problem.

[Nakia]

[quote name=KingM;1116529 I cannot reconcile a righteous and good Lord with one who would determine before one is born if they will be master or slave' date=' good or evil, saved or ****ed.

 

 

I agree! I believe that salvation is available to all who seek it. Anytime I read anything about reformed theology, I just think about John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Nakia

[Veritaserum]

Someone used this verse as support of Calvinism in another thread but I'm not picking on the poster in particular, just using the verse as an example of what I find wrong with Calvinist thinking. I cannot reconcile a righteous and good Lord with one who would determine before one is born if they will be master or slave, good or evil, saved or ****ed.

 

Actually, as a universalist, I have a problem with any sort of eternal torment, even for the worst, most depraved beings. I don't think any crime is worthy of eternal punishment, let alone the crime of merely believing the wrong thing about the nature of God. To say that God has decided before some are born who will be suffering this eternal torment, compounds the problem.

 

Sums it up for me, too. I believe God must be fair as well as loving. It isn't fair to be judged before we've done anything (good or bad). It isn't loving to cast out or punish your children forever, even if they did make mistakes. :)

[angela in ohio]

ETA: I look for this thread to turn very heated. :(

 

Well, that's one way to get it there. ;)

 

Heated is not a bad thing. Hateful is bad, yes, but not heated. Heat is passion, and people who are passionate about what they believe make much better conversation. :D

[Nakia]

Well, that's one way to get it there. ;)

 

 

 

:confused:

 

I will delete my statement, I guess.

[angela in ohio]

Sums it up for me, too. I believe God must be fair as well as loving. It isn't fair to be judged before we've done anything (good or bad). It isn't loving to cast out or punish your children forever, even if they did make mistakes. :)

 

That's where the difference lies. I don't believe that I can tell God what he must be, nor do I believe that God must be fair because I would like Him to be. It comes down to a difference in beliefs when it comes to God's sovereignty, which is what the other thread was about as well.

 

There are others on here who can discuss this much more intelligently than I can, but that's what I see as the core of the difference.

[EKS]

I didn't even remotely understand that other thread--and now I don't understand this one, which seems to prove E. D. Hirsch's point about background knowledge being critical to reading comprehension.

[Veritaserum]

That's where the difference lies. I don't believe that I can tell God what he must be, nor do I believe that God must be fair because I would like Him to be. It comes down to a difference in beliefs when it comes to God's sovereignty, which is what the other thread was about as well.

 

There are others on here who can discuss this much more intelligently than I can, but that's what I see as the core of the difference.

 

Well, I see no evidence that a sovereign God can't also be fair and loving. ;) I accept God's will, but I also very strongly believe that He gave us agency and that He values our ability to choose. What's the point of being able to choose if it doesn't matter what you do anyway? I imagine He's quite pleased when we choose well and sad when we don't, but I also believe He loves us always. :)

 

John 3:16 is a favorite. It gives me peace. :)

[Erica in PA]

I agree! I believe that salvation is available to all who seek it. Anytime I read anything about reformed theology, I just think about John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

I'm not trying to argue even a tiny bit here, honestly-- the doctrines of grace make sense to me, but I'm not passionate about trying to convince anyone else about them-- but I just want to point out something here: I totally agree with you-- salvation is available to all who seek it... but the problem is, who *can* seek it? Can a person lost in their sin, and as the Bible describes, *enemies* of God, truly desire to seek and know God? Where does that desire come from? The Calvinist would say it comes from God.

 

As far as John 3:16 goes, a Calvinist would wholeheartedly accept this verse, that whoever believes in Him will not perish-- but the difference is, apart from His leading, who *does* believe in Him? Who has the ability to? From my perspective, the only ones who can believe in Him, are those He has given the ability to do so. Otherwise we'd go on being His enemies, if it were totally up to us.

 

Again, please know that I'm not arguing or getting worked up in the slightest... just pointing out how a Calvinist might view the verses you mentioned.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Actually, as a universalist, I have a problem with any sort of eternal torment, even for the worst, most depraved beings.

 

God said that the consequence for disobedience was death. Then God had it written that the wages of sin is death. Did God lie and really the consequence is eternal torture? But my Bible and every other version I've read says that God cannot lie.

 

This is just ONE issue with the whole eternal torment thing. There are plenty other scriptures that dispute it. You really must take ALL of the scriptures about a topic and let them all work together for an answer rather than picking and choosing. Sometimes it takes a little digging too (prov 2:1-5)

Edited August 4, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Nakia]

I'm not trying to argue even a tiny bit here, honestly-- the doctrines of grace make sense to me, but I'm not passionate about trying to convince anyone else about them-- but I just want to point out something here: I totally agree with you-- salvation is available to all who seek it... but the problem is, who *can* seek it? Can a person lost in their sin, and as the Bible describes, *enemies* of God, truly desire to seek and know God? Where does that desire come from? The Calvinist would say it comes from God.

 

As far as John 3:16 goes, a Calvinist would wholeheartedly accept this verse, that whoever believes in Him will not perish-- but the difference is, apart from His leading, who *does* believe in Him? Who has the ability to? From my perspective, the only ones who can believe in Him, are those He has given the ability to do so. Otherwise we'd go on being His enemies, if it were totally up to us.

 

Again, please know that I'm not arguing or getting worked up in the slightest... just pointing out how a Calvinist might view the verses you mentioned.

 

Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

[wildflower]

I agree! I believe that salvation is available to all who seek it. Anytime I read anything about reformed theology, I just think about John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

and you forgot the ending!

 

 

for God did not send the Son into the world

in order that he might judge the world;

rather, in order that the world might be saved through him.

 

that to me is a loving God. I agree wholeheartedly with you & hope (as I scanned down) that this does not get heated. How ironic and argument over whether God is loving or vengeful (yes a bit of an exaggeration on my part- please don't bite!)

[Marylou]

 

for God did not send the Son into the world

in order that he might judge the world;

rather, in order that the world might be saved through him.

 

 

 

One of the best verses in the Bible!

[KingM]

That's where the difference lies. I don't believe that I can tell God what he must be, nor do I believe that God must be fair because I would like Him to be. It comes down to a difference in beliefs when it comes to God's sovereignty, which is what the other thread was about as well.

 

If we're going to go that route, then who is to say that He will be good, either? Well, I guess He says that He is good, but if he is all sovereign, then maybe He lies, too, and He's really an evil liar who created the universe in order to enjoy tormenting most of its inhabitants for all eternity.

 

Now, I don't believe that God is evil or would do any of those things. Which is why I have to believe that we do have free will. If we didn't have free will, and if God really had decided that some people would suffer for all eternity merely because He'd decided they should, then I'd have to ask myself if a God who would do such a thing would be a good being, or an evil being. Believing that God must be good, I can't therefore accept the concept of predestination.

[Marylou]

You can watch him preach this or listen or watch him speak it:

 

John Piper on Election

Edited August 4, 2009 by dmmosher

[Kathleen in VA]

Mark Webb says it very well, too:

 

After giving a brief survey of these doctrines of sovereign grace, I asked for questions from the class. One lady, in particular, was quite troubled. She said, 'This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men and women who would be saved, receiving only the elect.' I answered her in this vein: 'You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of heaven, and men are thronging to get in the door, and God is saying to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this. Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there. Were it not for election, heaven would be an empty place, and hell would be bursting at the seams. That kind of response, grounded as I believe that it is in Scriptural truth, does put a different complexion on things, doesn't it? If you perish in hell, blame yourself, as it is entirely your fault. But if you should make it to heaven, credit God, for that is entirely His work! To Him alone belong all praise and glory, for salvation is all of grace, from start to finish.

[Marylou]

I can't therefore accept the concept of predestination.

 

So the verses in the Bible that speak of predestination--what does one do with those?

[Erica in PA]

That's where the difference lies. I don't believe that I can tell God what he must be, nor do I believe that God must be fair because I would like Him to be.

 

I agree with this. I think some of the main objections to Reformed Theology, even those that I myself had in the past, are sometimes based more on preferences as to how we might like God to be or act, moreso than on actual Biblical support. That isn't to say that there are not legitimate biblical challenges to Reformed theology, but most often what I hear is that people simply "don't like the thought" of God doing things that way-- and to me, how I might *like* God to do things really doesn't matter much.

 

Romans 9:20-25

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."

 

I would like to know how one who rejects the idea of God's sovereignty in salvation interprets passages such as this one.

[Melissa in CA]

Mark Webb says it very well, too:

 

After giving a brief survey of these doctrines of sovereign grace, I asked for questions from the class. One lady, in particular, was quite troubled. She said, 'This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men and women who would be saved, receiving only the elect.' I answered her in this vein: 'You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of heaven, and men are thronging to get in the door, and God is saying to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this. Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction toward hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there. Were it not for election, heaven would be an empty place, and hell would be bursting at the seams. That kind of response, grounded as I believe that it is in Scriptural truth, does put a different complexion on things, doesn't it? If you perish in hell, blame yourself, as it is entirely your fault. But if you should make it to heaven, credit God, for that is entirely His work! To Him alone belong all praise and glory, for salvation is all of grace, from start to finish.

 

Excellent quote Kathleen! I agree. Completely. ;)

 

I could say sooooo much more...Like the whosoever in John 3:16. Nowhere does that verse say that 'whosoever chooses Christ of his own free will, will not perish but have everlasting life.' No, it just says "whosoever believes" it does NOT say, however, how they come to believe.

 

And...

 

Since the bible clearly states that none seek after God, no not one. And that we are all dead in our trespasses and sins (spiritually dead). I wonder how one comes to "choose" Him while one is spiritually dead and not seeking Him. Without the Lord doing a Divine regenerative work in his heart, I don't see how this could be.

 

I used to be a free-will believer, but have been a Calvinist for about 11 years now. After truly learning the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism), the free-will stance now clearly puzzles me, whereas it used to make perfect sense...or so I thought. Personally, I know that I deserve Hell and without God's intervention I would be heading in that direction post haste. Each and every day I sin against a Holy God. Doing a thorough study on God's Holiness and Sovereignty really brings the Doctrines of Grace into perspective. And oh how sweet is the Grace of God that saved a wretch like me. ;)

[PineFarmMom]

So the verses in the Bible that speak of predestination--what does one do with those?

 

That and the verse quoted below you, Romans 9:20-25, are ones that have made me ask questions also. I don't know that I'm really fully going to understand it all and have a solid, full answer to everything about this stuff this side of heaven. I wonder if I'll be grappling with different points of it when I'm 90. ;) But as I see God's sovereignty, I realize He doesn't HAVE to clear it all up for me. He's proven Himself enough that I can just trust Him now and trust Him in the future to make clear what He sees fit to make clear to me.

[Shelly in the Country]

Mark Webb says it very well, too:

 

After giving a brief survey of these doctrines of sovereign grace, I asked for questions from the class. One lady, in particular, was quite troubled. She said, 'This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men and women who would be saved, receiving only the elect.' I answered her in this vein: 'You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of heaven, and men are thronging to get in the door, and God is saying to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this. Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there. Were it not for election, heaven would be an empty place, and hell would be bursting at the seams. That kind of response, grounded as I believe that it is in Scriptural truth, does put a different complexion on things, doesn't it? If you perish in hell, blame yourself, as it is entirely your fault. But if you should make it to heaven, credit God, for that is entirely His work! To Him alone belong all praise and glory, for salvation is all of grace, from start to finish.

 

:iagree:

 

Fantastic explanation of the Calvinist position.

[Pamela H in Texas]

God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there.

 

A few questions...

 

Why would God pick A but not B?

Why can't/doesn't God pick everyone?

[Shelly in the Country]

A few questions...

 

Why would God pick A but not B?

Why can't/doesn't God pick everyone?

 

 

Romans 9:14-26

 

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;

and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,

"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

'You are not my people,'

they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

[KarenNC]

Someone used this verse as support of Calvinism in another thread but I'm not picking on the poster in particular, just using the verse as an example of what I find wrong with Calvinist thinking. I cannot reconcile a righteous and good Lord with one who would determine before one is born if they will be master or slave, good or evil, saved or ****ed.

 

Actually, as a universalist, I have a problem with any sort of eternal torment, even for the worst, most depraved beings. I don't think any crime is worthy of eternal punishment, let alone the crime of merely believing the wrong thing about the nature of God. To say that God has decided before some are born who will be suffering this eternal torment, compounds the problem.

 

I'm not really sure of the point of this. Are you saying that you think you *ought* to be a Calvinist rather than a universalist and this is the only thing holding you back, so can someone help you understand it differently to enable you to finally achieve what you think you ought to be? Or that you would like to hear and try to understand from a Calvinist point of view how they interpret that particular verse? If so, you may want to consider rewording it because that's not the way it comes across.

 

If it's just to gratuitously point out to Calvinists why you think they are wrong (ex. "what I find wrong with Calvinist thinking"), it doesn't seem incredibly helpful for the forum. I don't ascribe to Calvinism (in fact, grew up very Calvinist, am not even a monotheist at this point, much less a Calvinist Christian), but if I started threads to point out to each and every variation of each and every religion why I think they are incorrect in their religious thinking, it would 1) take forever and 2) just stir ill feelings to no good end. I know I am not particularly interested in having everyone on the board provide me with a litany of exactly what they find wrong with my thinking as a Hellenic polytheist. Respectful discussion and questions actually looking for clarification and understanding, yes, otherwise, no thanks and I try to extend that courtesy to those of other religions.

[Kathleen in VA]

A few questions...

 

Why would God pick A but not B?

Why can't/doesn't God pick everyone?

 

The real mystery is why God picks anyone at all since we are all dead in trespasses and sin and are His enemies. In any case, He is God - He can do whatever He chooses.

[Kathleen in VA]

Romans 9:14-26

 

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;

and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,

"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

'You are not my people,'

they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

 

Precisely.

[kokotg]

The real mystery is why God picks anyone at all since we are all dead in trespasses and sin and are His enemies. In any case, He is God - He can do whatever He chooses.

 

My question about Calvinism is more, "why make people at all, knowing what's going to happen?" That's the part of predestination I can't reconcile with a belief in a benevolent God. It might actually be the part I have trouble reconciling with anything except universalism, though....not necessarily Calvinism in particular. But, I mean, if I build a robot and program it to destroy humanity, I can't very well blame the robot when it does that, can I?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Originally Posted by Kathleen in VA

The real mystery is why God picks anyone at all since we are all dead in trespasses and sin and are His enemies. In any case, He is God - He can do whatever He chooses.

 

Hmmm, God created man "in his image," but knowing they would be disobedient and become his enemies. He told them that death would be the consequence when they did what he programmed them to do. But really, he tortures them forever. But he's so merciful that he saves a few from his mean program and cruel lie.

 

It doesn't make any sense.

 

Sounds more like a 3yo playing with his toy soldiers.

Edited August 5, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Kathleen in VA]

My question about Calvinism is more, "why make people at all, knowing what's going to happen?" That's the part of predestination I can't reconcile with a belief in a benevolent God. It might actually be the part I have trouble reconciling with anything except universalism, though....not necessarily Calvinism in particular. But, I mean, if I build a robot and program it to destroy humanity, I can't very well blame the robot when it does that, can I?

 

Yes, I can understand this being hard to reconcile. These difficulties remind me that I must submit to the written word of God. The Bible tells us that God is 100% loving and 100% just. Those are facts about His character. If I have trouble understanding His ways I remind myself of those two facts and I simply submit to His sovereignty. I realize I will never be able to completely understand God - after all, He is infinite and I am finite. Also, my ability to think clearly has been compromised by my sin nature. I simply trust that, knowing who God is, as revealed in His word, He will never do anything to contradict that character. It is a matter I must be satisfied not to completely understand. I must simply trust that He always does the right and loving thing. The Bible must be the final authority - not my feelings or what I wish were true.

 

If I could understand God completely that would mean He could fit inside my head. I can't remember where I put my car keys half the time. It should not be surprising that I cannot altogether comprehend an infinite God.

[Shelly in the Country]

Hmmm, God created man "in his image" knowing they would be disobedient and become his enemies. He told them that death would be the consequence when they did what he programmed them to do. But really, he tortures them forever. But he's so merciful that he saves a few from his mean program and cruel lie.

 

It doesn't make any sense.

 

Sounds more like a 3yo playing with his toy soldiers.

 

When Adam and Eve were created they were created good. They were also able to sin and able not to sin. I was taught this in Latin: Posse Pecare, Posse Non Pecare....Correct me if necessary, Latin folks, it's been awhile. When Adam fell, we all fell with him, and that is when humanity became totally depraved. We are now non posse non pecare....not able not to sin. But at the Fall, God made mankind a promise He would make it right.

 

Genesis 3:15

 

15 And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring [a] and hers;

he will crush [b] your head,

and you will strike his heel."

 

This is the protoevangelion. The first allusion to the Messiah to come... The Second Adam, who would represent us just as Adam did, but to redeem that which was lost. If it is unjust for us to be blamed for Adam's sin, it is also unjust for us to be redeemed by Jesus' righteousness and substitutionary atonement.

[Kathleen in VA]

Hmmm, God created man "in his image," but knowing they would be disobedient and become his enemies. He told them that death would be the consequence when they did what he programmed them to do. But really, he tortures them forever. But he's so merciful that he saves a few from his mean program and cruel lie.

 

It doesn't make any sense.

 

Sounds more like a 3yo playing with his toy soldiers.

 

As Shelly said, God did not program Adam or Eve to sin. They could have chosen to do the right thing. They chose to sin. We are all affected by that decision. It is part of our nature and we are now slaves to sin. If you do not believe that, then try to go a whole day without sinning in thought, word or deed, including sins of omission. God, desiring to glorify Himself, chose some before the foundation of the world (see Eph. 1), on whom to show mercy. Again, He didn't have any obligation to do so. We all deserve to go to hell. It is through His great grace and mercy that He saves some. I do not understand why He does not save everyone - I only know from reading the scripture that He has not. That is His choice - this is His universe. The Bible says that God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. When we do not understand those ways, we must still bow to His Lordship. He created it - He gets to decide how to run it. It is wrong to shake our fist at Him and question his ways as revealed in His word. Since we know He can never do anything unjust or hateful, we must believe that He is good all the time even when our minds cannot comprehend exactly how that plays out.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Shelly,

 

I believe Adam and Eve were created perfect. I believe they were misled (lied to actually) and chose to follow the course they did rather than to trust and obey their Loving Father. I also believe that we are all sinful in nature due to their sin (all cakes from a dented cake pan are dented). I totally agree that those scriptures in Genesis are the promise that God had a way to make it all right. Jesus' life was the perfect sacrifice for the perfect life that Adam lost. That was the striking of the heel as Jesus didn't stay dead and will crush the head of the serpent (Satan).

 

However, that sacrificial ransom was paid and it's benefits are extended to EVERY man. People can choose to accept the gift or not. And they can choose to accept it but later to toss it away.

 

However, all of that, even if you take out those last 3 sentences, don't "mesh" with predestination. Either God did it the way you and I have said (as he had put in the scriptures) OR he predestined all this junk.

 

To Kathleen: God is perfectly just and wise. He also says that we CAN know him and his ways. They are reasonable and understandable to us. He didn't HAVE to make it that way but he says that he has. The truth and your understanding of it IS available to you. You don't have to settle for "maybe I'll understand when I'm with him" or "I'm just so finite."

Edited August 5, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[kokotg]

When Adam and Eve were created they were created good. They were also able to sin and able not to sin.

 

But God knew before he created them that they were going to sin, yes? I can't quite grasp the distinction between creating people who you KNOW WILL sin and creating people who can sin but don't have to. Or, well, I guess I grasp the distinction, but I don't find the distinction particularly meaningful when we're talking about why God made people.

 

I guess...it just seems like every argument for Calvinism I ever read is all about how it makes so much sense. Once you SEE it, you'll wonder how it was ever not clear to you before. But I hit a wall with this part every time, and then, suddenly, I'm supposed to stop trying to make sense of it and embrace the mystery. And I don't find Biblical arguments for Calvinism any more compelling than those for universalism, so I go with the one that's a bit less mystery and more sense for me. I don't know if I'm right or not--that much mystery I'm happy to accept...I'm sort of a hopeful universalist.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Excellent quote Kathleen! I agree. Completely. ;)

 

I could say sooooo much more...Like the whosoever in John 3:16. Nowhere does that verse say that 'whosoever chooses Christ of his own free will, will not perish but have everlasting life.' No, it just says "whosoever believes" it does NOT say, however, how they come to believe.

 

And...

 

Since the bible clearly states that none seek after God, no not one. And that we are all dead in our trespasses and sins (spiritually dead). I wonder how one comes to "choose" Him while one is spiritually dead and not seeking Him. Without the Lord doing a Divine regenerative work in his heart, I don't see how this could be.

 

I used to be a free-will believer, but have been a Calvinist for about 11 years now. After truly learning the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism), the free-will stance now clearly puzzles me, whereas it used to make perfect sense...or so I thought. Personally, I know that I deserve Hell and without God's intervention I would be heading in that direction post haste. Each and every day I sin against a Holy God. Doing a thorough study on God's Holiness and Sovereignty really brings the Doctrines of Grace into perspective. And oh how sweet is the Grace of God that saved a wretch like me. ;)

 

Romans 10:14+ How can they believe in one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"..........faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

 

What puzzles me is, if God chooses who will be saved than why were the apostles and the disciples told to teach and to preach? Why the necessity of Christ dying on the cross for the sins of the world?

 

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

2 Corinthians 5:14+ Christ's love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.......that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, and not counting men's sins against them. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

[Kathleen in VA]

To Kathleen: God is perfectly just and wise. He also says that we CAN know him and his ways. They are reasonable and understandable to us. He didn't HAVE to make it that way but he says that he has. The truth and your understanding of it IS available to you. You don't have to settle for "maybe I'll understand when I'm with him" or "I'm just so finite."

 

I have to respectfully disagree. I believe the Bible reveals God as He desires to be revealed. I think it is absolutely 100% impossible to know God completely due to the fact that He is infinite and I am finite. I am limited - He is not. I CAN know what He desires me to know and the Bible reveals all of that. I believe His ways are reasonable but I do not demand a complete understanding of them to come to that conclusion.

[Kathleen in VA]

Romans 10:14+ How can they believe in one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"..........faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

 

What puzzles me is, if God chooses who will be saved than why were the apostles and the disciples told to teach and to preach? Why the necessity of Christ dying on the cross for the sins of the world?

 

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

2 Corinthians 5:14+ Christ's love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.......that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, and not counting men's sins against them. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

God has ordained preaching as His means to reach the elect. No one here knows who they are. He commanded us to tell others. It's really that simple. He knows who they are. We are to preach the word. The Holy Spirit does the convicting and the regenerating. That's one of the freeing things about the "dark side." We do not have to persuade men to follow Christ. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him. We are only required to tell others about the good news of Christ - God does the rest.

 

One thing that is important to remember as you are reading through the New Testament is that up until Christ's coming, God had only chosen one nation as His own - the nation of Israel. When the scriptures say "all men" or "everyone" it doesn't mean every single individual who ever walked the planet - it means men and women from every tribe and nation. That's what a lot of Romans is about - how now God has not just sent Christ to the Jews as their Messiah, but that He has sent a redeemer for those of all nations and tongues. He has not limited his love to Israel only but is now adopting Gentiles.

[Shelly in the Country]

But God knew before he created them that they were going to sin, yes? I can't quite grasp the distinction between creating people who you KNOW WILL sin and creating people who can sin but don't have to. Or, well, I guess I grasp the distinction, but I don't find the distinction particularly meaningful when we're talking about why God made people.

 

I guess...it just seems like every argument for Calvinism I ever read is all about how it makes so much sense. Once you SEE it, you'll wonder how it was ever not clear to you before. But I hit a wall with this part every time, and then, suddenly, I'm supposed to stop trying to make sense of it and embrace the mystery. And I don't find Biblical arguments for Calvinism any more compelling than those for universalism, so I go with the one that's a bit less mystery and more sense for me. I don't know if I'm right or not--that much mystery I'm happy to accept...I'm sort of a hopeful universalist.

 

I guess that's why this is called "The Problem of Evil". I'm not saying I understand EVERYTHING. I don't. There is much mystery here, just as there is much mystery in the Incarnation. Fully God, yet fully man? How? The Trinity. Three in person, yet one in essence?

 

Many many things I do not and cannot understand. However, I believe what Scripture attests to. Scripture tells me Jesus suffered and died like a man and was tempted in every way and did not sin, yet He is also I AM. Scripture tells me "The LORD your God, the LORD is one.", yet we are to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

Scripture tells me God chose us before the foundation of the world before we did anything good or bad. Scripture tells me I am DEAD in my trespasses and sins and that NO ONE seeks God and NO ONE understands. Scripture tells me that NO ONE comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him. But the beautiful part of this is:

 

Romans 8:38-39

 

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Before I understood the doctrines of grace, I thought my salvation was dependent upon my own effort. Even though I knew I could not save myself through my works, I thought my salvation was dependent on my own human ability to believe on Christ. My salvation is dependent on my faith in Christ, but my faith is not of myself, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. God began the work in me and He finished it, and now NOTHING can separate me from the love of God. I had no lasting assurance before. I do now. I know this is a hard word. Please study the Scriptures for yourself though. It is so freeing.

[Saille]

The Bible tells us that God is 100% loving and 100% just. Those are facts about His character. If I have trouble understanding His ways I remind myself of those two facts and I simply submit to His sovereignty.

 

The thing is, this is the sort of argument people use in fascist or totalitarian regimes. I believe I should reject it regardless of the circumstance (political or spiritual, mortal or eternal). I find this way of thinking (submit to authority for authority's sake) removes from our hands the responsibility for making fine distinctions, for struggling with difficult ethical issues, such as whether it is right or good to worship a being who would behave in this way. Even if it could be conclusively proven that Calvinists have the only correct understanding of the Bible, and that the Bible is the direct word of a divine being who claims to be the one true divine being, I would not necessarily be convinced. Rather, like Monty Python's King Arthur, I'd be quite likely to ask, "Is there someone else up there I could talk to?" and see who answered, so that I could weigh an alternative argument.

[Luanne]

nt

Edited August 5, 2009 by Luanne

[KingM]

So the verses in the Bible that speak of predestination--what does one do with those?

 

As a universalist, I would counter by asking, what of the verses in the Bible that speak of universal salvation? What does one do with those?

 

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

 

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

Philippians 2: 10-11 So that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

 

 

All, all, and every. To me, all includes Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Pagan, Atheist, and every saint and sinner. All.

[Marylou]

A few questions...

 

Why would God pick A but not B?

Why can't/doesn't God pick everyone?

 

Good questions. Who understands the mind of God?

 

To be honest, if I were not "Spiritually convinced" so to speak, regarding election I would think it is foolishness, arbitrary and VERY offensive. I can understand how MANY folks perceive it that way. Do I think one must be a Calvinist to enter heaven?--absolutely not! This is not a salvation issue.

 

Shelly,

 

He also says that we CAN know him and his ways. They are reasonable and understandable to us. He didn't HAVE to make it that way but he says that he has. The truth and your understanding of it IS available to you. You don't have to settle for "maybe I'll understand when I'm with him" or "I'm just so finite."

 

 

 

How does what you wrote here mesh with 1 Cor. 13:12?

 

12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

[kokotg]

Please study the Scriptures for yourself though. It is so freeing.

 

I have. I just haven't necessarily come to the same conclusions as you have ;-).

[Marylou]

I'm not really sure of the point of this.

 

I'm still trying to figure out * :001_huh:

[KingM]

He also says that we CAN know him and his ways. They are reasonable and understandable to us. He didn't HAVE to make it that way but he says that he has. The truth and your understanding of it IS available to you. You don't have to settle for "maybe I'll understand when I'm with him" or "I'm just so finite."

 

This is an excellent point and the Bible is full of examples of people understanding or trying to understand God. People all the time are questioning either God or Jesus, asking to see God, to know God, to wrestle with His angels and to understand His purposes. And this is portrayed as a good thing. There might be an exception, but it seems to me that every time someone genuinely struggles to know God in the Bible, that person receives further light and knowledge.

[Kathleen in VA]

The thing is, this is the sort of argument people use in fascist or totalitarian regimes. I believe I should reject it regardless of the circumstance (political or spiritual, mortal or eternal). I find this way of thinking (submit to authority for authority's sake) removes from our hands the responsibility for making fine distinctions, for struggling with difficult ethical issues, such as whether it is right or good to worship a being who would behave in this way. Even if it could be conclusively proven that Calvinists have the only correct understanding of the Bible, and that the Bible is the direct word of a divine being who claims to be the one true divine being, I would not necessarily be convinced. Rather, like Monty Python's King Arthur, I'd be quite likely to ask, "Is there someone else up there I could talk to?" and see who answered, so that I could weigh an alternative argument.

 

Yes, I can see how one might look at it that way. I suppose it can seem like that. I guess the only thing I can say is that it is God who gives you the faith to believe that the Bible is His word. He opens up your spiritual eyes and you have one of those "Aha!" moments. All of the sudden it just makes sense.

 

I don't suppose that's a satisfactory answer. I think though, that it begins with believing that the Bible is truly the Word of the Living God, Maker of the entire universe and everything in it. All of "Calvinism" (and being Baptist I am loathe to lump myself in with all that implies), hinges on that one thing. Once you get to the point where you are convinced beyond doubt that the Bible is the Word of God (and, of course, I can't prove that to you - God must reveal that to you), then I believe you will discover the truths I prefer to call the Doctrines of Grace, aka The Five Points of Calivinism. I went to Arminian churches (man has free will and can freely choose to follow God) through my late twenties. I always had tons of questions and wished that I had a little "Pastor" who could sit on my shoulder and explain them all to me. When my husband (at the time he was just an acquaintance) explained the DoG to me I was just shocked that I had never heard them before. I dove into my Bible and, sure enough, it was all there. I believe the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. It was so awesomely amazing to know that I did not have to do anything at all to earn my salvation - Jesus had done it all through His perfect life and perfect sacrifice and His resurrection! It wasn't even my faith that I had to muster - God had also provided that as a gift. Not only that, it is God who keeps me - I don't even have to do that part. I cannot lose my salvation. Now my heart is filled to overflowing with joy and gratefulness and I try to live an obedient life, not to gain salvation, but rather to express my thankfulness.

 

Following God is not following a fallible human being or human institution. But, of course, you must believe that He is God and that the Bible is truly His revelation of Himself to mankind. No mere words from me could ever convince you - it would have to be the Holy Spirit working in your heart.

[KingM]

I'm still trying to figure out * :001_huh:

 

Well, of course people like theological discussions, as one can see from how quickly this sort of thread expands. Some people don't, and they are free to sit out the discussion.

 

This one seems polite and I'm enjoying seeing the different viewpoints and explaining my own.

[Georgiana Daniels]

This one seems polite and I'm enjoying seeing the different viewpoints and explaining my own.

:iagree:

 

:lurk5:

[Penny from Tenny]

The real mystery is why God picks anyone at all since we are all dead in trespasses and sin and are His enemies. In any case, He is God - He can do whatever He chooses.

 

 

:iagree:Yes, the BEST thing you could say about a man is that he would choose God - and that goes against what we know Scripture clearly teaches about the total depravity of man.

[Kathleen in VA]

As a universalist, I would counter by asking, what of the verses in the Bible that speak of universal salvation? What does one do with those?

 

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

 

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

Philippians 2: 10-11 So that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

 

 

All, all, and every. To me, all includes Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Pagan, Atheist, and every saint and sinner. All.

 

Satan and all his demons are "under the earth." Are they going to heaven too? I think that verse in Phillippians means that every creature is going to come to the knowledge that Christ is King of the universe and will bow the knee, but it does not necessarily follow that they will all be saved. This verse is also referring to all those who have died. The Bible says that after death there is judgment. It says that God has prepared a lake of fire for those who rejected His Son as their Savior. There are many other places in scripture that say plainly that only those are "in Christ" will be saved.

 

You have taken these verses out of their context. Please read the whole chapter or book these verses are found in. We must always interpret Scripture by comparing it to other Scripture. We must also be careful not to impose upon it that which we hope to be true or wish to be true, but submit to what it plainly teaches as a whole.

 

Also, keep in mind that Paul was writing to churches filled with believers when he wrote those words. He was addressing believers.

[KingM]

Yes, the BEST thing you could say about a man is that he would choose God - and that goes against what we know Scripture clearly teaches about the total depravity of man.

 

Is this what you really believe? I mean, when you think of the people you know at church, work, your neighbors, or here on the WTM board--with all their flaws and weaknesses--aren't they, with few exceptions, really wonderful, kind, loving, good?

 

I don't know about you, but I can't think of the last time I met someone who was depraved, let alone totally depraved. On the contrary, we have been created in His own image, and that means beauty, love, and goodness.