s/o - The Problem I Have with Calvinism

[Erica in PA]

Is this what you really believe? I mean, when you think of the people you know at church, work, your neighbors, or here on the WTM board--with all their flaws and weaknesses--aren't they, with few exceptions, really wonderful, kind, loving, good?

 

I don't know about you, but I can't think of the last time I met someone who was depraved, let alone totally depraved. On the contrary, we have been created in His own image, and that means beauty, love, and goodness.

 

Again, though, are we going by our own personal opinions and observances, or what the Bible teaches? I know that with your background, KingM, you are well aware of the many, many Bible verses that teach very clearly the depravity of mankind.

 

Even when it comes to personal experience, though, I have never met anyone, including myself, for whom doing what is selfless, honest, and good came naturally. Everyone I know struggles to live out even what he/she believes in his/her own mind is the right thing to do, usually daily. To me that doesn't contradict what the Bible teaches about the depravity of man, it further supports it.

[KingM]

Also, keep in mind that Paul was writing to churches filled with believers when he wrote those words. He was addressing believers.

 

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

 

Except Paul doesn't say "all believers." Indeed, in Romans 5:6-7, Paul specifically says that Jesus didn't atone merely for the righteous, but for the ungodly.

 

Again, it seems very straightforward to me, that when Paul wrote that Christ's sacrifice brought life "for all men," that he really means all men.

 

I believe that Mormons explain this scripture by holding that eternal life and salvation are two separate things, but this is not my view.

[KingM]

I know that with your background, KingM, you are well aware of the many, many Bible verses that teach very clearly the depravity of mankind.

 

Yes, there are. And human history is replete with its own examples. I do find it difficult to reconcile this dualistic nature of humanity, the animal and the divine, wrestling within us at all times.

 

In many ways, humans are a lot like my three year old. One moment my son is hugging me and telling me I'm the best Daddy in the world but as soon as I send him down for his nap he's crying, "You're not my friend anymore!" :tongue_smilie:

[Marylou]

Well, of course people like theological discussions, as one can see from how quickly this sort of thread expands. Some people don't, and they are free to sit out the discussion.

 

This one seems polite and I'm enjoying seeing the different viewpoints and explaining my own.

 

I like theo discussions, too. I learn a lot from them. I just didn't realize that "condemn" was on the dreaded blacklist!

 

ETA (I learned a long time ago not to use "unbeliever" on these forums!)

Edited August 5, 2009 by dmmosher

[Kathleen in VA]

Is this what you really believe? I mean, when you think of the people you know at church, work, your neighbors, or here on the WTM board--with all their flaws and weaknesses--aren't they, with few exceptions, really wonderful, kind, loving, good?

 

I don't know about you, but I can't think of the last time I met someone who was depraved, let alone totally depraved. On the contrary, we have been created in His own image, and that means beauty, love, and goodness.

 

Well, this is where I think most folks get tripped up. They do not understand that we would all be worse than Hitler if God took his restraining hand of grace off of our lives. It is only by His grace that we do not see more violence or commit more violence than we do. I haven't met a murderer, but I read about them in the paper a LOT. What about the guy who buried that little girl (Jessica?) alive down in Florida? What about the men who flew those jets into the WTC? When you read about a depraved killer getting let go due to a legal technicality doesn't it turn your stomach or do you think that's justice? What about the young man who killed all those pople at Va Tech? I could list worse ones, but don't want to get any more graphic. There have been some real doozies in the news just this past week.

 

Yes, God did create man in His image. Man WAS perfect and good. He then chose to sin (the Bible says that Eve was deceived, but Adam knew exactly what he was doing.) The thing is, we humans don't really see ourselves for what we really are. We do not realize just how sin sick our hearts are. When you compare a black sheep and a white sheep, the white sheep looks amazingly bright and white. But when you put that same sheep on a snow -covered hill, he looks dull and dingy. We like to compare ourselves with others and we forget that God's standard for behavior is perfect rightousness. Romans 3:10-12 says "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no not one."

 

Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

 

We kid ourselves when we think we are good. Only God is good. We can never meet His righteous standard. Christ did that for us and then, although he was sinlesss, he took the penalty for the sin of "His own" (see John 17) on the cross and redeemed those who had been chosen before the foundation of the earth (see Eph. 1).

 

Of course, it does not bring me any pleasure to think that there are those who will not be saved. That is why I make it a point to tell others of the salvation that can be theirs through Christ. I do not know who His elect are, so I tell everyone I have opportunity to tell. It is God who either draws or does not draw. That is a hard saying. Several times in the gospels it says that Jesus said a hard saying and many who had followed him turned away and stopped following him.

 

Here is a link to a sermon by Paul Washer that explains it better than I can:

 

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=62807144816

[Peek a Boo]

I don't believe that I can tell God what he must be, nor do I believe that God must be fair because I would like Him to be

 

Calvinist or not, that sums it up for me. :D

 

I'll go back to lurking now ;)

[Marylou]

 

Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

 

Here is a link to a sermon by Paul Washer that explains it better than I can:

 

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=62807144816

 

Thank you for this link. I will listen when I have time.

[Tutor]

Someone used this verse as support of Calvinism in another thread...

 

No I didn't. I offered this verse in conjunction with two other verses ("interpret Scripture with Scripture" is a common saying among us reformed folks :D ) to show how the story of Jacob and Esau and its use in later Scriptures was an eye-opener for me in the area of learning about God's grace and sovereignty. Non-reformed denominations also have doctrines of grace and sovereignty (as do other religions, I believe).

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tutor

[Rose in BC]

The real mystery is why God picks anyone at all since we are all dead in trespasses and sin and are His enemies. In any case, He is God - He can do whatever He chooses.

 

:iagree:

[Melissa in CA]

God has ordained preaching as His means to reach the elect. No one here knows who they are. He commanded us to tell others. It's really that simple. He knows who they are. We are to preach the word. The Holy Spirit does the convicting and the regenerating. That's one of the freeing things about the "dark side." We do not have to persuade men to follow Christ. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him. We are only required to tell others about the good news of Christ - God does the rest.

 

One thing that is important to remember as you are reading through the New Testament is that up until Christ's coming, God had only chosen one nation as His own - the nation of Israel. When the scriptures say "all men" or "everyone" it doesn't mean every single individual who ever walked the planet - it means men and women from every tribe and nation. That's what a lot of Romans is about - how now God has not just sent Christ to the Jews as their Messiah, but that He has sent a redeemer for those of all nations and tongues. He has not limited his love to Israel only but is now adopting Gentiles.

 

:iagree::iagree: I couldn't have said it better Kathleen, and I'm sure glad you did because frankly, I'm not in the mood for this conversation...again! LOL It seems this comes up fairly regularly on these boards. You, as always, are spot-on and I am thoroughly enjoying your posts. :D

 

 

This is a bit off-topic, but I think one problem with the misunderstandings of Calvinism is that many people take scripture out of context without realizing it, or fail to apply the historical setting. We've been taught in church for centuries to NOT think, and pastors have been pulling scripture out of context for sooooo long that we think we know what a verse means, when we truly do not. I think about the oft' misused "When three or more come together in my name..." verse and how that was always used in the church I grew up in as: If three people come together in prayer, God will hear. When, that scripture is actually speaking of church discipline. :001_huh:

 

Or 1 Timothy 2:1-4

 

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men. For kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."

 

I am often approached with this verse (underlined) in defense of free-will and/or even Universalism. Yet, if you read the passage carefully, you might see that it's talking about God desiring all types of men to be saved (Kings and all in authority, not just lowly fishermen, etc.). It also states we are to offer up entreaties, prayers and petitions on behalf of all men...does that mean we are to be praying for ALL MEN ON THE EARTH? Each and every individual man? No. So why do we then apply the underlined verse as God desiring ALL MEN ON THE EARTH to be saved? Each and every individual man? It's very puzzling.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail...just thinking out loud (and not very eloquently either). :001_smile:

[Dianne-TX]

Excellent quote Kathleen! I agree. Completely. ;)

 

I could say sooooo much more...Like the whosoever in John 3:16. Nowhere does that verse say that 'whosoever chooses Christ of his own free will, will not perish but have everlasting life.' No, it just says "whosoever believes" it does NOT say, however, how they come to believe.

 

And...

 

Since the bible clearly states that none seek after God, no not one. And that we are all dead in our trespasses and sins (spiritually dead). I wonder how one comes to "choose" Him while one is spiritually dead and not seeking Him. Without the Lord doing a Divine regenerative work in his heart, I don't see how this could be.

 

I used to be a free-will believer, but have been a Calvinist for about 11 years now. After truly learning the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism), the free-will stance now clearly puzzles me, whereas it used to make perfect sense...or so I thought. Personally, I know that I deserve Hell and without God's intervention I would be heading in that direction post haste. Each and every day I sin against a Holy God. Doing a thorough study on God's Holiness and Sovereignty really brings the Doctrines of Grace into perspective. And oh how sweet is the Grace of God that saved a wretch like me. ;)

 

:iagree: Very well said.

[Dianne-TX]

Romans 9:14-26

 

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;

and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,

"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

'You are not my people,'

they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

 

Yes!

[Spy Car]

As Shelly said, God did not program Adam or Eve to sin. They could have chosen to do the right thing. They chose to sin.

 

Not true, according to the story the creator made humans without the capacity to distinguish right from wrong, so their "disobedience" had no moral component. You can't sin if you don't know right from wrong. That is basic justice.

 

We are all affected by that decision. It is part of our nature and we are now slaves to sin.

 

This is unjust. You can't punish one person for the failing or transgressions of another and call it justice.

 

I think you are missing the "moral of the story" which is morally imperfect humans equipped with the ability to know good from evil, but lacking the capacity to always conform their behavior to the good, will sometimes do "bad". And they will know they have gone wrong and will carry that burden of guilt and shame for their shortcomings. End of story.

 

We all deserve to go to hell.

 

I think this is a monstrously inhumane world-view, and a dangerous one. People can lead good and descent (if not perfect) lives if they have the moral courage to choose to choose good over evil. You can do that every day hundreds of times, and it makes a difference in repairing the world.

 

Treating good people as if they are evil monsters is perverse and wrong-headed.

 

If some supernatural judge existed, which I seriously doubt, and if he or she was just, the only fair grounds to judge us would be on how we lived our lives, how we treated others, how we treated our shared world, and not surely not on some "get-out-of-jail-free-card" called faith.

 

It is through His great grace and mercy that He saves some. I do not understand why He does not save everyone

 

Sounds like a puny conceptualization of a divine being. If such a being has the capacity to save everyone and doesn't use it, what can you say about that kind of god?

 

 

The Bible says that God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. When we do not understand those ways, we must still bow to His Lordship. He created it - He gets to decide how to run it. It is wrong to shake our fist at Him and question his ways as revealed in His word. Since we know He can never do anything unjust or hateful, we must believe that He is good all the time even when our minds cannot comprehend exactly how that plays out.

 

So this God can command (or commit) genocides and it's "all good" because we are too small to understand his vast wisdom? Really???

 

The Bible, hate to break it to you, is a collection of man-written tales, many borrowed and retold from the myths of other earlier cultures. It has no divine origin or authorship. People wrote these stories, for better or worse. Imperfect people, most of whom were seeking to find "goodness" (although their ideas on that front could be quite strange).

 

There are some nice touches: "love thy neighbor". But how could one love their neighbor if they believe their neighbors (their fellow human beings), are the natural-born enemies of God? It does not compute.

 

I've been wondering where the anti-humanism of right-wing fundamentalists comes from, and I'm finally seeing this is the well-spring of that hated. There is a fundamental abhorrence for humanity in this philosophy. I find it deeply saddening.

 

Bill (who's happy to have grown up free from the influence of these dark tales)

Edited August 5, 2009 by Spy Car

[Dianne-TX]

Well, this is where I think most folks get tripped up. They do not understand that we would all be worse than Hitler if God took his restraining hand of grace off of our lives. It is only by His grace that we do not see more violence or commit more violence than we do. I haven't met a murderer, but I read about them in the paper a LOT. What about the guy who buried that little girl (Jessica?) alive down in Florida? What about the men who flew those jets into the WTC? When you read about a depraved killer getting let go due to a legal technicality doesn't it turn your stomach or do you think that's justice? What about the young man who killed all those pople at Va Tech? I could list worse ones, but don't want to get any more graphic. There have been some real doozies in the news just this past week.

 

Yes, God did create man in His image. Man WAS perfect and good. He then chose to sin (the Bible says that Eve was deceived, but Adam knew exactly what he was doing.) The thing is, we humans don't really see ourselves for what we really are. We do not realize just how sin sick our hearts are. When you compare a black sheep and a white sheep, the white sheep looks amazingly bright and white. But when you put that same sheep on a snow -covered hill, he looks dull and dingy. We like to compare ourselves with others and we forget that God's standard for behavior is perfect rightousness. Romans 3:10-12 says "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no not one."

 

Jeremiah 17:9 says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

 

We kid ourselves when we think we are good. Only God is good. We can never meet His righteous standard. Christ did that for us and then, although he was sinlesss, he took the penalty for the sin of "His own" (see John 17) on the cross and redeemed those who had been chosen before the foundation of the earth (see Eph. 1).

 

Of course, it does not bring me any pleasure to think that there are those who will not be saved. That is why I make it a point to tell others of the salvation that can be theirs through Christ. I do not know who His elect are, so I tell everyone I have opportunity to tell. It is God who either draws or does not draw. That is a hard saying. Several times in the gospels it says that Jesus said a hard saying and many who had followed him turned away and stopped following him.

 

Here is a link to a sermon by Paul Washer that explains it better than I can:

 

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=62807144816

 

:iagree:with every single post you have posted, Kathleen. Praise the Lord for your witness and clarity and loving attitude in this discussion. What an example and inspiration you are to me and God gets all the honor and praise for it!

[TXMomof4]

A few questions...

 

Why would God pick A but not B?

Why can't/doesn't God pick everyone?

 

See, I think God chose us all, but we don't all choose Him. I think he *knows* who will choose him. He's not limited to today - he knows everything that will come. But he chose all of us and left it up to us to choose him. The Spirit moves some, but not others. That's free will.

[Marylou]

 

The Bible, hate to break it to you, is a collection of man-written tales, many borrowed and retold from the myths of other earlier cultures. It has no divine origin or authorship. People wrote these stories, for better or worse. Imperfect people, most of whom were seeking to find "goodness" (although their ideas on that front could be quite strange).

 

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Bill (who's happy to have grown up free from the influence of these dark tales)

I wasn't so fortunate. I had the dark tales shoved firmly down my throat, but I'm happy to say that despite all that I experienced while growing up, I reached the same conclusions as you did about religion.

Edited August 5, 2009 by JudyJudyJudy

[mommaduck]

Is that why it's called the Dark Side? I thought they were trying to be funny.

No, that's not why. In fact, it's called the Dark Side because, like various other groups, they get shot at from all sides as though heretics.

 

Figures someone would come on here and start leveling the "it's all made up" and "see how hateful they are" comments. Yet let the conversation be about any other faith and these same ppl will defend them, warts and all. Truth be told, some ppl just have a grudge.

[KingM]

I still can't wrap my mind around how one reconciles the idea of an eternal, predestined hell with the belief in an all good, just God.

 

What if we found out that after 9/11 the government had managed to capture Osama bin Laden and some of his top lieutenants and that for the past eight years the government had kept these men in a special prison, where every morning they were brought out and had electrodes attached to their bodies and every night they were beaten and kept on their feet.

 

And within the last month the government had decided they were to be killed for their monstrous crime. They were then tortured to death, slowly, horribly, over the course of a week, two weeks, how ever long they could be kept alive. Wouldn't we shudder and think that our punishment of these people had been inhumane, regardless of whether or not they'd deserved it?

 

But this is nothing compared to the concept of hell, where the vast majority of humanity will be condemned to suffer in eternal torment. Most of those people suffering will be there simply for having been born in the wrong part of the world or during a period when Christianity had not yet reached them.

 

The idea of hell brings to mind the more chilling writings of Thomas Brooks and Jonathan Edwards. Brooks wrote:

 

Suppose that the whole world were turned into a mountain of sand, and that a little bird should come once every thousand years and carry away from that heap, one grain of sand. What an infinite number of years would be spent before this great mountain of sand would be fetched away! Just so—if a man should lie in everlasting burnings so long a time as this, and

then have an end of his woe—it would give some ease, some hope, and some comfort to him. But when that immortal bird shall have carried away this great mountain of sand—a thousand times over and over—alas, alas, sinful man shall be as far from the end of his anguish and torment as ever he was! He shall be no nearer coming out of hell, than he was the very first moment that he entered into hell!

 

If God is all good and all powerful, why would he allow such suffering to occur?

[KingM]

Figures someone would come on here and start leveling the "it's all made up" and "see how hateful they are" comments. Yet let the conversation be about any other faith and these same ppl will defend them, warts and all. Truth be told, some ppl just have a grudge.

 

With all due respect, "Dark Siders" believe that they have been specially chosen, that their fellow posters are totally depraved, and that most of the people on this board will suffer and deserve to suffer eternal torment.

 

This rubs some people the wrong way.

[mommaduck]

KingM,

 

We don't believe Gd to be some Santa in the sky or magic genie that just gives us what we want. Obviously our whole history and Gd Himself is much more complicated than that.

 

Read the story of Job ;)

[Marylou]

I wasn't so fortunate. I had the dark tales shoved firmly down my throat, but I'm happy to say that despite all that I experienced while growing up, I reached the same conclusions as you did about religion.

 

No matter how wonderful broccoli and carrots are for a toddler, it is absolutely wrong to shove them (or anything!) down his throat. When the story of abuse hits the papers we stand around the water coolers and talk about the parents' actions, not about the vegetables or the farmer who grew them. I also imagine that every single time that person sees broccoli throughout his lifetime he will be repulsed.

 

I'm sorry you were abused by your parents. I hope you can forgive them.

 

Now back to "Calvinism". I think the authority of Scripture thread is a few pages down!

Edited August 5, 2009 by dmmosher

[Marylou]

With all due respect, "Dark Siders" believe that they have been specially chosen, that their fellow posters are totally depraved, and that most of the people on this board will suffer and deserve to suffer eternal torment.

 

This rubs some people the wrong way.

 

No, we believe all people are totally depraved. And I will have to check, but I don't think the word "specially" is mentioned one time in the Bible.

Edited August 5, 2009 by dmmosher
changed "men" to "people"

[PineFarmMom]

Figures someone would come on here and start leveling the "it's all made up" and "see how hateful they are" comments. Yet let the conversation be about any other faith and these same ppl will defend them, warts and all. Truth be told, some ppl just have a grudge.

 

I've found the bolded part you said to be very true about any faith outside of Christianity. People who aren't Christians just naturally seem to despise it and will go to bat for anything except that. It shouldn't bother me, as I've seen it to be true so often.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Texas T

[mommaduck]

With all due respect, "Dark Siders" believe that they have been specially chosen, that their fellow posters are totally depraved, and that most of the people on this board will suffer and deserve to suffer eternal torment.

 

This rubs some people the wrong way.

 

 

Dark Siders also believe that THEY can't be the judge as to who is going where. Even Scripture teaches that we can't know our own heart, how dare we would claim to know another person's heart. This is why it has been easy for me to have friends of other faiths, because I don't know where their, or my, relationship with Gd will end up. We do believe that WE ALL are born totally depraved...ALL OF US...our bent is away from Gd and any draw toward Gd is because of HIS GRACE. This places all Glory to Gd, not taking claiming any glory ourselves in "see what *I* did! *I* made this choice!"....no, it's Gd's Grace that I've managed this far.

 

It's called Cat and Dog Theology ;)

 

Cat says, "He feeds me, He clothes me, He pets me, *I* must be Gd"

 

Dog says, "He feeds me, He clothes me, He pets me, *HE* must be Gd"

[Marylou]

You can't sin if you don't know right from wrong. That is basic justice.

 

 

Definitely will have to disagree here. Just ask the mother who's holding a 14 month old and gets bitten in the shoulder (ouch).

Edited August 5, 2009 by dmmosher

[KingM]

KingM,

We don't believe Gd to be some Santa in the sky or magic genie that just gives us what we want. Obviously our whole history and Gd Himself is much more complicated than that.

 

God could choose to be a Santa in the sky or a magic genie, or whatever he chose to be. He could act like Zeus or set up an Aztec sacrificial cult, or whatever He wanted.

 

Well, He's chosen none of those things, but He has stated that He is good and He is merciful. There is no goodness or mercy in an absolutely sovereign God who would allow for an eternal torment in hell.

 

Either He is not good and merciful, or He does not torture people.

[KingM]

I've found the bolded part you said to be very true about any faith outside of Christianity. People who aren't Christians just naturally seem to despise it and will go to bat for anything except that. It shouldn't bother me, as I've seen it to be true so often.

 

You should read the burqa thread. Plenty of criticism of the culture of Islamic regions, if nothing else. I suspect if there were more threads on same, you'd see more criticism.

[Erica in PA]

Not true, according to the story the creator made humans without the capacity to distinguish right from wrong, so their "disobedience" had no moral component. You can't sin if you don't know right from wrong. That is basic justice.

 

 

 

This is unjust. You can't punish one person for the failing or transgressions of another and call it justice.

 

I think you are missing the "moral of the story" which is morally imperfect humans equipped with the ability to know good from evil, but lacking the capacity to always conform their behavior to the good, will sometimes do "bad". And they will know they have gone wrong and will carry that burden of guilt and shame for their shortcomings. End of story.

 

 

 

I think this is a monstrously inhumane world-view, and a dangerous one. People can lead good and descent (if not perfect) lives if they have the moral courage to choose to choose good over evil. You can do that every day hundreds of times, and it makes a difference in repairing the world.

 

Treating good people as if they are evil monsters is perverse and wrong-headed.

 

If some supernatural judge existed, which I seriously doubt, and if he or she was just, the only fair grounds to judge us would be on how we lived our lives, how we treated others, how we treated our shared world, and not surely not on some "get-out-of-jail-free-card" called faith.

 

 

 

Sounds like a puny conceptualization of a divine being. If such a being has the capacity to save everyone and doesn't use it, what can you say about that kind of god?

 

 

 

 

So this God can command (or commit) genocides and it's "all good" because we are too small to understand his vast wisdom? Really???

 

The Bible, hate to break it to you, is a collection of man-written tales, many borrowed and retold from the myths of other earlier cultures. It has no divine origin or authorship. People wrote these stories, for better or worse. Imperfect people, most of whom were seeking to find "goodness" (although their ideas on that front could be quite strange).

 

There are some nice touches: "love thy neighbor". But how could one love their neighbor if they believe their neighbors (their fellow human beings), are the natural-born enemies of God? It does not compute.

 

I've been wondering where the anti-humanism of right-wing fundamentalists comes from, and I'm finally seeing this is the well-spring of that hated. There is a fundamental abhorrence for humanity in this philosophy. I find it deeply saddening.

 

Bill (who's happy to have grown up free from the influence of these dark tales)

 

If it were up to each one of us to decide how the universe should be run, and what right and wrong are, and whether there should be a hell, and how good is good enough, and if there *were* a God, what He should be like, then your position would be valid. However, if there is a God who created all of us, then it's His standards that matter, not ours.

[Rhondabee]

That's where the difference lies. I don't believe that I can tell God what he must be, nor do I believe that God must be fair because I would like Him to be. It comes down to a difference in beliefs when it comes to God's sovereignty, which is what the other thread was about as well.

 

There are others on here who can discuss this much more intelligently than I can, but that's what I see as the core of the difference.

 

Hmmm...I don't consider myself reformed. Tho' to be honest, I'm not sure what the other alternatives are. :001_smile: I tend to think much of the disagreements stem from man's inability to perfectly express God's words to each other. I've heard people argue over semantics when they were basically arguing for the same thing. I like the verse that assures me that we don't have to say to each other, "Know the Lord," because He is our teacher.

 

But, maybe I do get what you're saying here. It's not fair that *my* 4yo DD lives in a loving family, who values her, and who derives joy from her very presence - while other 4yo little girls are abused, or molested, or abandoned, or stolen to endure a living hell. I think about this every day when I watch her play, and every night while I watch her sleep. And, I pray for all the children and the oppressed who are stuck in an existence that really isn't fair.

 

(ETA: I suppose that God had to have had foreknowledge of that existence - the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Though, I am still in limbo as to whether God planned it that way, or simply knows how to bring good out of it because of His omnisicience.)

 

Just last night (before reading this am) I mentioned to my DH that I will never understand or like this aspect of God. I can't understand how He just watches it, just allows it to happen. But, I guess that - what I see as God &/or this world being "unfair" - is what you are calling "sovereignty"? I never associated "sovereignty" with that, but with God's right and ability to interfere whenever and however and in whatever He wants. So, I will keep your tho'ts in mind in the future.

 

btw - I do think that just as my children don't always like or understand my decisions, and yet can love me and obey me in faith, so I can honestly express my doubts and concerns to/about God about things I don't understand or like, and still be in a loving relationship with Him. And, I do think there will always be things that we won't understand - otherwise, it wouldn't be called "faith".

Edited August 5, 2009 by Rhondabee

[mommaduck]

God could choose to be a Santa in the sky or a magic genie, or whatever he chose to be. He could act like Zeus or set up an Aztec sacrificial cult, or whatever He wanted.

 

Well, He's chosen none of those things, but He has stated that He is good and He is merciful. There is no goodness or mercy in an absolutely sovereign God who would allow for an eternal torment in hell.

 

Either He is not good and merciful, or He does not torture people.

 

Are those the only two attributes of Gd that He claims in Scripture?

 

 

 

Eternal, Faithful, Foreknowing, Good, Holy, Immutable, Impartial, Incomprehensible, Infinite, Jealous, Just, Longsuffering, Love, Mercy, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Righteous, Self Existent, Self Sufficient, Sovereign, Transcendent, Truth, Wise, Wrathful.

 

Again, have you ever read the entire book of Job?

Edited August 5, 2009 by mommaduck

[Marylou]

 

Either He is not good and merciful, or He does not torture people.

 

Or option three: He is God and we're not.

[tnmomofboys]

I have never posted on a theological thread but always read them. I am posting now just to say thank you to those who defend their faith in a loving and informed manner, a special thanks to Kathleen in VA. I wish I could write so clear and concise. My ds(14) will be studying world view/philosophy this year and I think I will save this post. I do believe that the scriptures are the Word of God and to really understand them you have to read the entire book and study the verses in context. This discussion has been a great reminder to me the importance to studying God's Word. I have enjoyed reading this thread.

[KingM]

Or option three: He is God and we're not.

 

I believe this is a non sequitur. I don't understand the thinking of, "We can't understand the mind of God," when there exists a vast, diverse book, written over hundreds of years, that seeks to do just that.

 

@Mommaduck - I have read Job several times. It is a very interesting literary work. Are you familiar with Ludlul bel nemeqi?

[Marylou]

I believe this is a non sequitur. I don't understand the thinking of, "We can't understand the mind of God," when there exists a vast, diverse book, written over hundreds of years, that seeks to do just that.

 

@Mommaduck - I have read Job several times. It is a very interesting literary work. Are you familiar with Ludlul bel nemeqi?

 

The Bible is a specific revelation of God, not the whole ball of wax. It shows us Christ and what He did. It does not show His mind.

 

I enjoy this discussion, but I must go for now. My kids are begging to go to VBS ((gasp!)).

 

ETA The Bible itself says "Who can know the mind of God? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To Him be glory forever. Amen"

Edited August 5, 2009 by dmmosher

[Tami]

Calvinism vs. Armenianism is an "in house" debate, that is a non-essential. Therefore, I don't argue for it. From a Biblical standpoint, it is problematic to take a low view of sin and and holiness of God. It also problematic for me to start with my likes/dislikes and opinions about how I would like God to be. :) In my world, God is absolute moral purity, majesty and sovereignty. He is not an indulgent grandpa in the sky who winks at sin. God is love and God is wrath. These meet at the cross beautifully, reconciling love of man and hatred of sin. I take a high view of holiness of God. Here is an article on the Holiness of God that would explain a bit about why God cannot look upon iniquity, and why the Cross is a necessity to reconcile the paradox of God's Love and God's Justice.

[mommaduck]

@Mommaduck - I have read Job several times. It is a very interesting literary work. Are you familiar with Ludlul bel nemeqi?

 

Interesting literary work? Ai! No, interesting and very informative part of Scripture.

 

 

Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with it and the arguments of the matter. The whole "who plagerised from whom" bit. My faith naturally leans me in one direction. Our explaination, much like that of the similar flood stories, is that there is a truthful event that has been passed down in differing ways. We know there was a flood, we know there was a man and his family, we know that they were saved by a rather large boat. Now, which of these stories do we believe and why. I have logical and valid for believing the one in Scripture :) The same applies to Job.

[mommaduck]

Calvinism vs. Armenianism is an "in house" debate, that is a non-essential. Therefore, I don't argue for it. From a Biblical standpoint, it is problematic to take a low view of sin and and holiness of God. It also problematic for me to start with my likes/dislikes and opinions about how I would like God to be. :) In my world, God is absolute moral purity, majesty and sovereignty. He is not an indulgent grandpa in the sky who winks at sin. God is love and God is wrath. These meet at the cross beautifully, reconciling love of man and hatred of sin. I take a high view of holiness of God. Here is an article on the Holiness of God that would explain a bit about why God cannot look upon iniquity, and why the Cross is a necessity to reconcile the paradox of God's Love and God's Justice.

 

Well stated :)

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I have. I just haven't necessarily come to the same conclusions as you have ;-).

 

What she said.

 

I've studied the Bible often and deeply. I've studied it in historical context and with references to the original languages. I see a God that is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentence.

 

I believe that God is fair and impartial and that every soul will have had its chance to choose Him, one way or another, before the day of judgement.

Pre-destined, to me, means pre-judged. I don't believe the Bible teaches that.

Why should we have to give an account for ourselves, even if it is to say I throw myself on your mercy through Jesus's blood, if we had no choice? (Rhetorical question)

 

Plenty of very learned Bible scholars have come to different conclusions than those of Calvinism.

[KingM]

The Bible is a specific revelation of God, not the whole ball of wax. It shows us Christ and what He did. It does not show His mind.

 

I enjoy this discussion, but I must go for now. My kids are begging to go to VBS ((gasp!)).

 

ETA The Bible itself says "Who can know the mind of God? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To Him be glory forever. Amen"

 

I find this ironic, because Reformed, Calvinist thinkers are unparalleled in their desire to understand God's thinking. There is even argument within Calvinist doctrine about Supralapsarianism, Antelapsarianism, Infralapsarianism, Sublapsarianism, and Postlapsarianism, which is an arcane argument about what order God decreed who would be saved, who would be dam_ned, when the fall would occur, when the elect and the dam_ned would be created, etc. Talk about speculation and presumption into the mind of God!

 

As for this board, "Dark Siders" frequently make little asides to each other with hints of esoteric knowledge to which other Christians, even other evangelicals aren't privy.

[Rhondabee]

God said that the consequence for disobedience was death. Then God had it written that the wages of sin is death. Did God lie and really the consequence is eternal torture? But my Bible and every other version I've read says that God cannot lie.

 

This is just ONE issue with the whole eternal torment thing. There are plenty other scriptures that dispute it. You really must take ALL of the scriptures about a topic and let them all work together for an answer rather than picking and choosing. Sometimes it takes a little digging too (prov 2:1-5)

 

I'm so pleasantly surprised to read your post! My DH and I sometimes feel so alone in believing that "hell" is not everlasting punishment, but "death" - or non-existence, if you will.

 

It seems so obvious to us that we should take God at His word. However, we have found it best to just bite our tongues and not muddy the waters whenever this topic comes up at church. Just wondering if you've found a church that teaches this (or at least accepts it as a possibility).

[KingM]

Interesting literary work? Ai! No, interesting and very informative part of Scripture.

 

I'm not a Biblical literalist and so unfortunately we'll hit a wall on Job discussions. I will note that God and Satan appear to be tormenting Job on a wager between the two, which has troubling implications for God's sovereignty unless you take much of the story as metaphorical.

[mommaduck]

I'm so pleasantly surprised to read your post! My DH and I sometimes feel so alone in believing that "hell" is not everlasting punishment, but "death" - or non-existence, if you will.

 

It seems so obvious to us that we should take God at His word. However, we have found it best to just bite our tongues and not muddy the waters whenever this topic comes up at church. Just wondering if you've found a church that teaches this (or at least accepts it as a possibility).

 

Another way hell has been described is as an Eternal Separation from Gd. This would be an eternal torment. To be forever separated from any Grace or Presence of God. On earth there is a Common Grace as well as a Saving Grace. Separation from that...well, I would not even want to imagine.

[mommaduck]

I'm not a Biblical literalist and so unfortunately we'll hit a wall on Job discussions. I will note that God and Satan appear to be tormenting Job on a wager between the two, which has troubling implications for God's sovereignty unless you take much of the story as metaphorical.

 

A wager that Gd would always win, because it's His Grace that holds Job together even in the depths of being tormented.

 

If you are not a Biblical literalist and view Gd as "good and loving", do you also accept His other attributes? Why or why not?

Edited August 5, 2009 by mommaduck

[Tami]

I agree! I believe that salvation is available to all who seek it. Anytime I read anything about reformed theology, I just think about John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

I love your siggy line! I just wanted to point out that even in an Arminian worldview, not everyone is saved/spared/chosen, right? Or do we go to the next logical step of Universalism? Here is what I believe. I have a free will. It is not absolute but is shaped by things out of my control: how I grew up, where I was born, my experiences, etc. God is more free than I am. Nothing outside of Himself causes Him to turn or change. When MY free will comes in opposition to GOD's, I lose. God is good, and He is absolutely free. I am both good and evil, and my freedom is limited by my experiences and knowledge. I did not have a choice of where I was born or whether I would be born capable of sin. Therefore, I am a slave in that sense. Only God has absolute freedom.

 

I haven't been awake long, but I hope that makes sense.:D

[Laura Corin]

Mark Webb says it very well, too:

 

After giving a brief survey of these doctrines of sovereign grace, I asked for questions from the class. One lady, in particular, was quite troubled. She said, 'This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men and women who would be saved, receiving only the elect.' I answered her in this vein: 'You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of heaven, and men are thronging to get in the door, and God is saying to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this. Rather, God stands at the door of heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of sinners out of hell who otherwise would have been there. Were it not for election, heaven would be an empty place, and hell would be bursting at the seams. That kind of response, grounded as I believe that it is in Scriptural truth, does put a different complexion on things, doesn't it? If you perish in hell, blame yourself, as it is entirely your fault. But if you should make it to heaven, credit God, for that is entirely His work! To Him alone belong all praise and glory, for salvation is all of grace, from start to finish.

 

I can see how that would make sense. What I don't understand (speaking from considerable ignorance) is why God would decide only to save some. Do you just accept that we can't know why? As stated, it makes God sound somewhat parsimonious.

 

Laura

[Rhondabee]

Another way hell has been described is as an Eternal Separation from Gd. This would be an eternal torment. To be forever separated from any Grace or Presence of God. On earth there is a Common Grace as well as a Saving Grace. Separation from that...well, I would not even want to imagine.

 

How can one be alive if one is separated from God, since God is life?

 

Actually, I believe the "lake of fire" in Revelation is a twin to the metaphor describing God as a "consuming fire". The body returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God (a "consuming fire") whether the person is hidden in Christ or not. In my assuredly incomplete opinion, this opens the possibility that the "fire" (God's presence) will completely consume those who are not hidden in Christ (they are no more), while those who are in Christ are purified (having the dross removed - is that how Paul put it?). So, *everyone* is actually going back to God.

 

The thing I do admit that I like about this view (apart from that it makes sense to me as I'm reading through the Bible), is that, ironically (?), it means that those unbelievers who say that there is no existence after death have spoken correctly (for themselves at least).

 

ps - I realize I am pulling bits and pieces of scripture out, and tying them together without proper references - my DD needs breakfast sometime this morning. I will try to put the references in later. Could you please provide a biblical reference that defines hell as eternal separation from God?

Edited August 5, 2009 by Rhondabee

[KingM]

Here is what I believe. I have a free will. It is not absolute but is shaped by things out of my control: how I grew up, where I was born, my experiences, etc. God is more free than I am. Nothing outside of Himself causes Him to turn or change. When MY free will comes in opposition to GOD's, I lose. God is good, and He is absolutely free. I am both good and evil, and my freedom is limited by my experiences and knowledge. I did not have a choice of where I was born or whether I would be born capable of sin. Therefore, I am a slave in that sense. Only God has absolute freedom.

 

 

I feel similarly, especially the bolded parts. I differ from you, I believe, in that I lean toward not knowing and I do take it to universalism, which is what I see as the logical end result.

[kokotg]

I feel similarly, especially the bolded parts. I differ from you, I believe, in that I lean toward not knowing and I do take it to universalism, which is what I see as the logical end result.

 

One of the things I find most interesting about Calvinism is that it does seem to me that it has far fewer theological differences with Christian universalism than it does with Arminianism. Or at least the theological differences it has with universalism are easier to resolve. In fact, last night I googled Calvinism vs. universalism and the first thing that came up was a somewhat convoluted essay that seemed to be warning against Calvinism with some sort of slippery slope to universalism argument.

[mommaduck]

How can one be alive if one is separated from God, since God is life?

 

Actually, I believe the "lake of fire" in Revelation is a twin to the metaphor describing God as a "consuming fire". The body returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God (a "consuming fire") whether the person is hidden in Christ or not. In my assuredly incomplete opinion, this opens the possibility that the "fire" (God's presence) will completely consume those who are not hidden in Christ (they are no more), while those who are in Christ are purified (having the dross removed - is that how Paul put it?). So, *everyone* is actually going back to God.

 

The thing I do admit that I like about this view (apart from that it makes sense to me as I'm reading through the Bible), is that, ironically (?), it means that those unbelievers who say that there is no existence after death have spoken correctly (for themselves at least).

 

ps - I realize I am pulling bits and pieces of scripture out, and tying them together without proper references - my DD needs breakfast sometime this morning. I will try to put the references in later. Could you please provide a biblical reference that defines hell as eternal separation from God?

 

 

The difference is, we have not declared annihilation. Scripture does not declare annihilation. It does describe a separation from Gd and describes it as torment. If one is annihilated, then one cannot be in torment. Heavens, if annihilation is all that would happen, then why not do evil, you won't really "pay" for it, you'll just no longer exist...and some people actually find non-existence appealing.