"Dark side" question

[PineFarmMom]

BTW, I don't like that term, "Dark side", though I know why it was picked. ;) I've been grappling with Calvinism/Reformed, Biblically, for over a year now. I think God is using Romans to firm this up for me. It's not so much the 5 points as just the flat-out Sovereignty of God that I had never really faced fully, not in the way I am now anyway!! My question is: Is there a particular scripture that you know God used to just nail it down? If you didn't think that way before, was there a scripture that just hit you between the eyes? This a.m., while reading Romans 1, the part where it says that God gave them over to a depraved mind...THAT just really hit me. I don't know that that would have been the verse, in my mind, that would have done it, but there is something so bold about His sovereignty in that, and I can't fully explain why. I guess it's like what He did with Pharaoh? I've been seeing more in later chapters in Romans also. If your thinking has been changed, is there one thing that did it like a scripture, article, book? Or was it gradual?

[anewday]

John 10

 

And FWIW, I don't like the term "Dark Side" either... :tongue_smilie:

[abbeyej]

Aside: Just because some people here thought it was cute and use "dark side" as a stand-in for Reformed theology, you certainly don't need to. I certainly don't think it was meant to be offensive, but I also think you can simply say "Reformed theology" or "Calvinism" or whatever you feel is most appropriate and that's just fine too.

 

There have been some cute little terms for things over the years on this board that I've chosen to embrace -- and others I've chosen, personally, to avoid using. No one has ever questioned my use of a more standard term for something or other, when there was also a board-standard euphemism or nickname sometimes employed.

[anewday]

I forgot to add that I had come to believe the doctrines of grace before John 10 stood out so much to me. I thought you were asking about key passages in general until I read more closely. LOL

 

For me, it was reading a book called Worldly Saints by Leland Ryken that introduced me to Calvinism via the Puritains. After that, I saw scripture in such a different light - it was filled with His sovereignty and honestly I don't know how I missed it before that.

 

A really great resource is:

The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented

 

Oodles of scripture passages and helpful history on Arminius and Calvin and the origin of the "five points".

[angela in ohio]

but I also think you can simply say "Reformed theology" or "Calvinism" or whatever you feel is most appropriate and that's just fine too.

 

 

 

I have to agree. Why would you not just title your post "Reformed theology questions" if you don't dig the humour? :001_smile:

 

Some verses:

 

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

Rom 9:20-24 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

[anewday]

I have to agree. Why would you not just title your post "Reformed theology questions" if you don't dig the humour? :001_smile:

 

 

 

I think it's simply that she figured that's what most people would recognize and reply to here.

 

I don't think she was chastising anyone for using it - simply that she was pointing out she isn't warm and fuzzy over it. :) I'm not either, but it isn't offensive to me and I get why it's used.

[abbeyej]

I don't think either Angela or I meant to chastise. I do think that if Teresa's not completely comfortable with a term that someone had previously used as a bit of a joke, she should feel absolutely free to use the term with which she's more comfortable (and which is certainly more widely recognized, even here).

[mommaduck]

It was gradual.

 

The humour is a was of poking fun back at the way Calvinism is often treated...like the phrase "red-headed stepchild" (except that phrase would fit a different branch of Christianity).

[Tutor]

The story of Jacob and Esau was the eye-opener for me:

 

23The LORD said to her,

"Two nations are in your womb;

And two peoples will be separated from your body;

And one people shall be stronger than the other;

And the older shall serve the younger."

- Genesis 25:23

 

1The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi. 2"I have loved you," says the LORD But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD "Yet I have loved Jacob;

3but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."

4Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins"; thus says the LORD of hosts, "They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever."

5Your eyes will see this and you will say, " The LORD be magnified beyond the border of Israel!"

-Malachi 1:1-5

 

13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14What shall we say then?There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15For He says to Moses, " I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

-Romans 9:13-16

[PineFarmMom]

John 10

 

 

 

Good. Thanks. I'm going to read it again.

[PineFarmMom]

I think it's simply that she figured that's what most people would recognize and reply to here.

 

I don't think she was chastising anyone for using it - simply that she was pointing out she isn't warm and fuzzy over it. :) I'm not either, but it isn't offensive to me and I get why it's used.

 

Yeah, yeah. What she said. That was pretty much it. I don't despise the term, but meant it like even when I didn't agree with Calvinism, I never saw those who did as the "dark side" but I also knew the reasons behind its use. No great depth on my part. ;)

[PineFarmMom]

The story of Jacob and Esau was the eye-opener for me:

 

23The LORD said to her,

"Two nations are in your womb;

And two peoples will be separated from your body;

And one people shall be stronger than the other;

And the older shall serve the younger."

- Genesis 25:23

 

 

 

13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14What shall we say then?There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15For He says to Moses, " I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

-Romans 9:13-16

 

THAT was big to me in Romans. I was reading that last week and the Jacob & Esau thing started to really click more with me than before.

[PineFarmMom]

It was gradual.

 

The humour is a was of poking fun back at the way Calvinism is often treated...like the phrase "red-headed stepchild" (except that phrase would fit a different branch of Christianity).

 

I grew up Baptist, have Baptist preachers in my family, and Calvinism doesn't mesh well with it. ;) I do see what you're saying.

 

So can someone who changes their thinking just go along, status quo, in the same church situations as before? Hmmm. I'm already an odd-ball for homeschooling. ;)

[mommaduck]

I grew up Baptist, have Baptist preachers in my family, and Calvinism doesn't mesh well with it. ;) I do see what you're saying.

 

So can someone who changes their thinking just go along, status quo, in the same church situations as before? Hmmm. I'm already an odd-ball for homeschooling. ;)

 

 

Well, depends on which Baptist church you are in and which area you are in. It can get difficult enough that you will start looking for another church. Also, there is a spectrum of Reformed from Reformed Baptists (with the joke, can Baptists really be Reformed if they are Baptists :lol:...Reformed ppl like to debate) to midstream Reformed (PCA, OPC) to the Ultra-Too Reformed (or TR for short URCNA, PRC, RPCNA, etc) and then there are those that go to the fringe with the Federal Vision people or just flat out jump ship into Episcopalianism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism. Don't let any of this scare you...a good study of Church History puts much into perspective ;)

 

So you may want to stay where you are at right now and see how far you go in your studies ;)

[mrsrevmeg]

There were several things that led my husband and me to Reformed Theology. When we followed certain things in Scripture to their logical conclusions, it was only natural to look at things from a Reformed perspective. (examples- as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one Romans 3:10; he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Ephesians 1:5)

 

As far as calling it "The Dark Side", when I first saw this I had to laugh. My husband thinks it is funny, too. So many times you mention Reformed/Calvinist to people and they start acting like you are teaching some horrible heresy. I have been told "You don't really expect me to believe that God would create people that have NO chance of being saved, do you???" (I kind of want to say, "You ever hear of Pharaoh? Judas?")It can cause you to be considered an outcast in your church or, as in our case, an outcast in your entire denomination. Dark Side fits in our case.

[PineFarmMom]

As far as calling it "The Dark Side", when I first saw this I had to laugh. My husband thinks it is funny, too. So many times you mention Reformed/Calvinist to people and they start acting like you are teaching some horrible heresy. I have been told "You don't really expect me to believe that God would create people that have NO chance of being saved, do you???" (I kind of want to say, "You ever hear of Pharaoh? Judas?")It can cause you to be considered an outcast in your church or, as in our case, an outcast in your entire denomination. Dark Side fits in our case.

 

I do see what you're saying. I don't like that it is that way, but I totally get what you're saying. ;) Good points.

[PineFarmMom]

Well, depends on which Baptist church you are in and which area you are in. It can get difficult enough that you will start looking for another church. Also, there is a spectrum of Reformed from Reformed Baptists (with the joke, can Baptists really be Reformed if they are Baptists :lol:...Reformed ppl like to debate) to midstream Reformed (PCA, OPC) to the Ultra-Too Reformed (or TR for short URCNA, PRC, RPCNA, etc) and then there are those that go to the fringe with the Federal Vision people or just flat out jump ship into Episcopalianism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Roman Catholicism. Don't let any of this scare you...a good study of Church History puts much into perspective ;)

 

So you may want to stay where you are at right now and see how far you go in your studies ;)

 

Oh, I grew up southern Baptist, so no, it just doesn't mesh. ;) I probably ought to just back up and let the Lord teach me and not look years in advance and potential church changes, huh? Now I do need to go deeper into church history, though. I've known that for a while but just have skimmed the surface!

[mommaduck]

Oh, I grew up southern Baptist, so no, it just doesn't mesh. ;) I probably ought to just back up and let the Lord teach me and not look years in advance and potential church changes, huh? Now I do need to go deeper into church history, though. I've known that for a while but just have skimmed the surface!

 

Hey, not as bad as if you had grown up Independent Fundamental Baptist! :lol: The Founder's Movement are the Calvinists in the SBC ;)

 

Hubby was raised SBC...his dad is a Calvinist and used to be a pastor. I was raised in, but not by, an IFB church (I was lowly bus kid ;) ).

[ladydusk]

I've always like 2 Samuel 14:14

 

14We must all die; we are(A) like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means(B) so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

 

I love how God devises means for his people.

 

And then, RC Sproul's conversion story uses an interesting verse (quoted here and other places):

 

I had actually gone to a church-related college, but I went on a football scholarship, not because of any interest in the church. And at the end my first week, which had been spent in freshman orientation, my roommate and I decided to head out to town to hit some of the bars across the border. We come to the parking lot and I realized that I was out of cigarettes. So I went back in the dorm and went to the cigarette machine. I can still remember it was 25 cents for a pack of Luckys. And I got my Luckys and turned around and saw the captain of the football team sitting at a table. And he spoke to me and to my roommate and invited us to come over and chat. And we did. And this was the first person I ever met in my life that talked about Christ as a reality.

I'd never heard anything like it. And I was just absorbed, sat there for two or three hours, and he was talking. He didn't give a traditional evangelism talk to me, he just kept talking to me about the-the wisdom of the word of God. And he quoted Ecclesiastes 11:3: "Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there will it lie." I just feel certain I'm the only person in church history that was converted by that verse. God just took that verse and struck my soul with it. I saw myself as a-a log that was rotting in the woods. And I was going nowhere.

When I left that guy's table I went up to my room. And into my room by myself, in the dark, and got on my knees and cried out to God to forgive me.

 

 

I love how it shows God's sovereignty ... even in something so seemingly meaningless.

[SquirrellyMama]

I grew up Baptist, have Baptist preachers in my family, and Calvinism doesn't mesh well with it. ;) I do see what you're saying.

 

So can someone who changes their thinking just go along, status quo, in the same church situations as before? Hmmm. I'm already an odd-ball for homeschooling. ;)

 

I've know Reformed Baptists.

[PineFarmMom]

.

 

 

I love how it shows God's sovereignty ... even in something so seemingly meaningless.

 

That was a great story!!

[Kathleen in VA]

We attend a Sovereign Grace Baptist Church that teaches believer's baptism and the five points of Calvinism. I think the reason Baptists avoid the term "reformed" is because the five points may have been articulated by Calvin very well, but they have always been in the Bible. We prefer to call them the Doctrines of Grace. We do not believe in everything Calvin taught so prefer to distance ourselves from the man but not the truths of God's grace that he espoused.

 

Also, Baptists believe that God has always had a body of true believers since the time of the New Testament church on. There was no need to reform the true church - it has always existed. Reformed, if I am correct on this, comes from the idea of needing to reform the Catholic church. Baptists don't consider the Catholic church to ever have been the true church.

 

There is a very large distinction between Baptists and other "reformed" churches. Every society before Christ's advent was a sacral society - entire nations all worshiped the same god(s). Baptists believe that Christ's followers are supposed to be salt and light in the world - the marketplace, neighborhoods, etc. - but that He did not intend to set up another sacral society. The Catholic church attempted, and succeeded to a large extent, in setting up another sacral society. Calvin tried to establish a sacral society in Geneva. The Puritans, I believe, attempted to establish a sacral society in Massachusetts. Baptists believe that when Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world," he meant, among other things, that He had no intention of establishing a religious state on this earth. I believe this is one of the key distinctions between Baptists and those who call themselves "reformed."

 

My favorite scripture about God's sovereignty - the scripture that hit me between the eyes, as it were is Daniel 4:35. Nebuchadnezzar is speaking after he has come to his senses:

 

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

My thoughts on this subject have come from reading Are Baptists Calvinists? and Are Baptists Reformed? both by Kenneth Good, as well as The Reformers and their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin. And, although it takes an Arminian doctrinal viewpoint, The Faithful Baptist Witness by Dr. Phil Stringer, is excellent on much of Baptist history.

[Tutor]

I've know Reformed Baptists.

 

Heather in WI here is Reformed Baptist. Maybe she can answer some questions for you. (Yes, I just volunteer people. :D )

[Shelly in the Country]

God worked on me for a long time with this. I read Chosen by God and Romans and fought against it. There was one thing that always sort of bothered me though. If my salvation was dependent on my decision for Christ...in other words if I chose Christ instead of Christ choosing me, how much faith would I need to be saved? What if I had a bad week, or a bad year? I had no assurance. Of course, Scripture should have given me assurance here, John 15:16 says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you." I was still not convinced of anything though. Then in college, a professor printed out a list of nothing but Scripture references on a sheet of paper that all dealt with God's Sovereignty and handed them out to the class. I went back to my dorm and looked them all up. One after another....I read them all in one sitting. It was like God was shooting down my whole worldview with each verse. I still didn't like this doctrine yet. But I could no longer deny that Scripture taught it. I love it now. It gave me the assurance I never had before. Unfortunately I have long since lost that list of references, but the Sovereignty of God is woven throughout Scripture, Old and New Testaments. Once you see it, lots of things make more sense.

 

One of the most compelling verses for me is Ephesians 1:4-5 - Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.

[Marylou]

John Piper has a short video on this.

 

I am a Reformed Christian and think Ephesians 1 tells it all.

 

Enjoy your study of God's Word!

[BikeBookBread]

BTW, I don't like that term, "Dark side", though I know why it was picked. ;) I've been grappling with Calvinism/Reformed, Biblically, for over a year now. I think God is using Romans to firm this up for me. It's not so much the 5 points as just the flat-out Sovereignty of God that I had never really faced fully, not in the way I am now anyway!! My question is: Is there a particular scripture that you know God used to just nail it down? If you didn't think that way before, was there a scripture that just hit you between the eyes? This a.m., while reading Romans 1, the part where it says that God gave them over to a depraved mind...THAT just really hit me. I don't know that that would have been the verse, in my mind, that would have done it, but there is something so bold about His sovereignty in that, and I can't fully explain why. I guess it's like what He did with Pharaoh? I've been seeing more in later chapters in Romans also. If your thinking has been changed, is there one thing that did it like a scripture, article, book? Or was it gradual?

 

We had just come back from the 2008 west coast Ligonier conference in September when my pastor preached from Isaiah 6...it brought it all home to me. Verses 6 - 8 especially showed the complete and utter holiness of God juxtaposed against Isaiah's, well, unholiness - even Isaiah, God's go-to man saw how utterly empty he was!

 

 

And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts! Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for."

I grew up in an independent Bible church that claimed to be calvinistic, but when it came down to it, it was just downright legalistic with very little theology to back up the "do's and don'ts". The more I studied true reformed and calvinist theology, I realized just how un-legalistic it really is! Seeing God's sovereignty placed in the proper light helped me dispel the "dark side" feelings I was having. It is a good thing to know that nothing I can do can save me...I know that now! I grew up saying it and trying to "do it", but not necessarily believing it. There was always that "I've gotta do..."

 

HOWEVER, now that I know all of this and feel the awesome freedom of my salvation, I feel more compelled that ever to respond to God's greatness through holy living, and it isn't out of fear, legalism, etc...but out of gratefulness, thankfulness and a desire to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. KWIM?

[PineFarmMom]

Oh my!! I'm loving these responses!! They are so awesome. There are so many good ones I'm having a hard time responding to each one. Thanks everyone. Keep them coming.

[Marylou]

Oh my!! I'm loving these responses!! They are so awesome. There are so many good ones I'm having a hard time responding to each one. Thanks everyone. Keep them coming.

 

 

Okay, you asked!

 

I heard a pastor once say we should think of "dead" as someone on the bottom of a swimming pool. She can't yell out for help. She can't dial 9-1-1. She can't raise a hand and wave for help. SHE IS D-E-A-D!

 

Ephesians 2--

 

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

[anewday]

Heather in WI here is Reformed Baptist. Maybe she can answer some questions for you. (Yes, I just volunteer people. :D )

 

I was Reformed Baptist for 10 years until I really went crazy and became a Presbyterian. :lol:

[Erica in PA]

My thinking started to change when I was in Bible college, and a professor was teaching through the book of Romans. That's what first got me thinking about election, God's choosing, etc. In addition to the many verses in Romans that speak of God's sovereignty in choosing the path of each person, John 15:16 says that it's God who chooses us, not us choosing God.

 

What hit me most powerfully was the idea that if we are all sinful, all depraved and lost before God, how can we *choose* to follow God? If we are saved by faith, where does the faith that saves us come from? Could it originate independently in the heart of a sinful, depraved enemy of God, or more plausibly, is even faith itself given by God? Ephesians 2:8-9 is one passage that teaches this concept-- that even faith itself is a gift from God. I personally don't believe that I could have suddenly developed the ability to believe in Jesus Christ on my own when I was 15 years old. I needed Him to help me believe in Him.

 

So just to follow logically, if we believe because God gave us the faith to believe in Him, why doesn't everyone have saving faith? The only logical answer is that He hasn't given it to everyone. If a sovereign God gave every person saving faith, they would have it-- but reality bears out that they don't, so He hasn't done that. So why has God only granted faith to some? And that's where all of the verses about election, God's choosing, vessels of destruction, etc. started really ringing true to me. God chooses to give faith to whom He will, for His purposes. Having gone through the entire process, I really can't envision any other way of thinking about God's sovereignty and salvation that fits better. It seems to me to be the most faithful way to interpret some of the difficult passages of the Bible. (Many apologies to my old high school Bible teacher, who thought that Calvinists were the worst of all heretics, and met with each one of us before we went off to college specifically to warn us against them! LOL Sorry, Ms. B, I'm one of *them* now! :tongue_smilie:)

[KrissiK]

I grew up Mennonite and became Reformed about 10 years ago, got married to a Mennonite, converted him (well, God did, really) and now we've been 3 years Presbyterian, though we're still Credo-Baptists. Can't get past that, so we're not TRUE Presbyterians, though our church is one of the only Calvinist churches in the area, which is why we're there.

 

I think it was Romans 2 that really sticks out in my mind as helping to turn my mind to "The Dark Side" (I think that nickname is kind of funny, actually), although I believe that if you really study and think about and dig deeply all Scripture boasts of God's complete sovereignty. Isaiah is full of "God doing as He purposes". It took me a year to get through that book with the help of Matthew Henry's Commentary, but I am even more convinced than ever of God's faithfulness, His forgiveness and His absolute sovereignty after reading that book.

[Marylou]

got married to a Mennonite, converted him (well, God did, really)

 

spoken as a truly Reformed Christian ;)

[schsmom]

My thinking started to change when I was in Bible college, and a professor was teaching through the book of Romans. That's what first got me thinking about election, God's choosing, etc. In addition to the many verses in Romans that speak of God's sovereignty in choosing the path of each person, John 15:16 says that it's God who chooses us, not us choosing God.

 

What hit me most powerfully was the idea that if we are all sinful, all depraved and lost before God, how can we *choose* to follow God? If we are saved by faith, where does the faith that saves us come from? Could it originate independently in the heart of a sinful, depraved enemy of God, or more plausibly, is even faith itself given by God? Ephesians 2:8-9 is one passage that teaches this concept-- that even faith itself is a gift from God. I personally don't believe that I could have suddenly developed the ability to believe in Jesus Christ on my own when I was 15 years old. I needed Him to help me believe in Him.

 

So just to follow logically, if we believe because God gave us the faith to believe in Him, why doesn't everyone have saving faith? The only logical answer is that He hasn't given it to everyone. If a sovereign God gave every person saving faith, they would have it-- but reality bears out that they don't, so He hasn't done that. So why has God only granted faith to some? And that's where all of the verses about election, God's choosing, vessels of destruction, etc. started really ringing true to me. God chooses to give faith to whom He will, for His purposes. Having gone through the entire process, I really can't envision any other way of thinking about God's sovereignty and salvation that fits better. It seems to me to be the most faithful way to interpret some of the difficult passages of the Bible. (Many apologies to my old high school Bible teacher, who thought that Calvinists were the worst of all heretics, and met with each one of us before we went off to college specifically to warn us against them! LOL Sorry, Ms. B, I'm one of *them* now! :tongue_smilie:)

 

The one thing that really bothers me about saying that God did not give that gift to everyone is the absence of the biblical teachings of the devil. Maybe people believe only selected people can be saved because the devil wants it to be. Then he is free to prey on the "unselected" people to do his bidding right?

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. Where I am from I was not encouraged to read scripture. I truly feel if I had died when I was Catholic still believing in Christ I would have gone to hell. Seriously. I have been reborn in Christ. Because of one isolated sermon that filled me and fed me I was drawn to Christ because of his awesome saving power. I chose to go to that sermon, the devil tried to stop me but I knew I needed more of Christ in my life if I were going to change. Not because I was chosen over my neighbor. Christs' sacrifice and unfailing love brought me to him. It was a mutual relationship(which is what I believe God wants). I decided to come to the Lord and because he sacrificed for me he chose to save me. I moved 1100 miles away from my hometown and comfort zone to be closer in my christian walk. To help with kingdom building, by teaching others to know christ and be fed as I was. To say that only selected people have the opportunity is to say that teaching people about christ and his saving power is a waste of time. I use every chance I can to help others know and feel what I felt. I have taught many in my short walk, I will teach many more before I go to the Lord. I believe that everyone has the oppurtunity to be saved. Noone will take that belief from me because if you study Revelation hard you will see the chances so many will be given to come to christ. If it wasn't true that we all have the chance then why would God give us the end of times and give us all the chance to come to him. Why wouldn't he just take up his "selected" people in the rapture and destroy life on earth then. I believe if anything it is a test of faith. God puts faith in everyone of us. It is our test in this short life to choose to use it or take up with the devil.

One thing I have learned. Be weary of taking scripture out of context to make it suit your needs. None of us are better than the other. If we believe in Christs truth then we are all saved.

In my opinion the words "dark side" are just that. Association to the devil.

I understand being a new christian doesn't make me a theologian but scripturally all I have seen is gods love for all. Maybe there is something demonic that can twist scripture into what it wants you to believe.

Just my thoughts on this, honestly before today I had no idea that people felt this way. I don't think for me it is a debate when I read this stuff I felt sadness for those that believe this. Isn't it hard enough to feed the seed of Christ without making people think they are only saved if they are chosen. So many people whom are on the fence would think well if I am not chosen then what is the point! Sorry about the rant, I'm sure I offended some greatly but we all make our choices during our trial, all I ask is to not make a choice for someone else. If this is what you want to believe so be it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by schsmom

[mommaduck]

The one thing that really bothers me about saying that God did not give that gift to everyone is the absence of the biblical teachings of the devil. Maybe people believe only selected people can be saved because the devil wants it to be. Then he is free to prey on the "unselected" people to do his bidding right?

 

 

:confused: The Bible DOES speak of Satan and demons.

[schsmom]

Yeah sorry I meant it seems absent in these discussions. Not that it isn't biblical.

[TravelingChris]

In my way of thinking, God is immortal and timeless among many other attributes. He knows how someone would react to the gift before he gives it. He doesn't waste his gift of grace.

 

On other things, I totally think that the Calvinist doctrine of salvation not only makes sense but is also very freeing. It relieves guilt that maybe if we phrased our VBS lesson a bit differently or served cooler snacks, someone else would be saved. It doesn't lessen my zeal to help in the Lord's work but does relieve the anxiety.

[mommaduck]

It relieves a lot of anxiety. I don't have to sit and wonder if *I* let someone go to hell because I didn't push enough Jack Chick tracts on them or something (yeah, not a fan of his either).

[Erica in PA]

The one thing that really bothers me about saying that God did not give that gift to everyone is the absence of the biblical teachings of the devil. Maybe people believe only selected people can be saved because the devil wants it to be. Then he is free to prey on the "unselected" people to do his bidding right?

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. Where I am from I was not encouraged to read scripture. I truly feel if I had died when I was Catholic still believing in Christ I would have gone to hell. Seriously. I have been reborn in Christ. Because of one isolated sermon that filled me and fed me I was drawn to Christ because of his awesome saving power. I chose to go to that sermon, the devil tried to stop me but I knew I needed more of Christ in my life if I were going to change. Not because I was chosen over my neighbor. Christs' sacrifice and unfailing love brought me to him. It was a mutual relationship(which is what I believe God wants). I decided to come to the Lord and because he sacrificed for me he chose to save me. I moved 1100 miles away from my hometown and comfort zone to be closer in my christian walk. To help with kingdom building, by teaching others to know christ and be fed as I was. To say that only selected people have the opportunity is to say that teaching people about christ and his saving power is a waste of time. I use every chance I can to help others know and feel what I felt. I have taught many in my short walk, I will teach many more before I go to the Lord. I believe that everyone has the oppurtunity to be saved. Noone will take that belief from me because if you study Revelation hard you will see the chances so many will be given to come to christ. If it wasn't true that we all have the chance then why would God give us the end of times and give us all the chance to come to him. Why wouldn't he just take up his "selected" people in the rapture and destroy life on earth then. I believe if anything it is a test of faith. God puts faith in everyone of us. It is our test in this short life to choose to use it or take up with the devil.

One thing I have learned. Be weary of taking scripture out of context to make it suit your needs. None of us are better than the other. If we believe in Christs truth then we are all saved.

In my opinion the words "dark side" are just that. Association to the devil.

I understand being a new christian doesn't make me a theologian but scripturally all I have seen is gods love for all. Maybe there is something demonic that can twist scripture into what it wants you to believe.

Just my thoughts on this, honestly before today I had no idea that people felt this way. I don't think for me it is a debate when I read this stuff I felt sadness for those that believe this. Isn't it hard enough to feed the seed of Christ without making people think they are only saved if they are chosen. So many people whom are on the fence would think well if I am not chosen then what is the point! Sorry about the rant, I'm sure I offended some greatly but we all make our choices during our trial, all I ask is to not make a choice for someone else. If this is what you want to believe so be it.

 

I praise the Lord that you have been saved!!! That is wonderful. Please don't be discouraged by this conversation. You are absolutely right to be sharing God's Word, and sharing His love with those who don't know Him. We can all take comfort in the fact that, "Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Acts 2:21)!!" No one who comes to God through Jesus Christ will be turned away. The debate about how that exactly comes to pass is an important one, but does not cancel out all that we have in common in the Lord! :grouphug:

[sunflowerlady]

This is a very interesting thread. I have been thinking about this a lot lately and was considering posting questions. Anyway, I ran a across a little booklet titled "The Reformed Faith" by Loraine Boettner. It does a good job of explaining all the scriptures regarding this as well as the five points of Calvinism.

 

Most of it makes sense to me but some of it is confusing. However, I do believe in the sovereignty of God. In fact, if I didn't believe in His sovereignty I am not sure how I could get through life.

 

Anyway, I will be doing more studying and discussing with dh.

 

We are Baptists, BTW. :D