nmoira Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I have a friend who is an under-worked technical writer and is interested in writing a secular logic program. What would you like to see? Either specifics or "a program like x, but secular" is helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia in WA Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I was just ranting yesterday about the lack of a secular logic course. I have searched so long and so hard that I don't know what I want. I would be happy with just about any format as long as it is secular. Please encourage your friend to write away. We will buy it!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 We're not there yet, but closing fast (going into 4th grade). I haven't researched logic programs much yet, so can't really help with specifics, but would love to have a secular option available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 *bump* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia in WA Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What about something like Life of Fred; a story format. He could have different books for the different branches.....informal, formal, symbolic and mathematical. Also I don't so much need teacher helps as I need the answers to whatever questions are asked. So if it were a story format we would learn the lessons in the story and then apply it to whatever exercises there were but I would have the answers to verify we were on the right track. I don't need a separate book telling me how to do the lesson or how to present the lesson, etc. And now maybe I am asking too much but if he could make it so my 3rd grader, my 7th grader and my 9th grader were all able to work through it so I don't have to look for a different program for each of them, that would just be icing. I would be willing to build a small statue in his honor!!!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What about something like Life of Fred; a story format. He could have different books for the different branches.....informal, formal, symbolic and mathematical. Ooh, I like that. I have a 5th and 7th grader. They will both start logic this year with the Dandylion series. When I was looking, I would have liked something that started gently but ramped up a bit quicker for a middle school student just starting out. I haven't actually used anything yet to know what I really like and what I don't though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I like the LOF idea too. I would prefer to have all branches touched on in each book, however (if that is possible - I'm very ignorant) because I might run out of time to do a whole string of books. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyinNNV Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I have a friend who is an under-worked technical writer and is interested in writing a secular logic program. What would you like to see? Either specifics or "a program like x, but secular" is helpful. I would like something like Traditional Logic by Cothran. I'm not interested in "extra" stuff because the closer to high school kids get, the less time they have for a subject like logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What about something like Life of Fred; a story format. He could have different books for the different branches.....informal, formal, symbolic and mathematical. Also I don't so much need teacher helps as I need the answers to whatever questions are asked. So if it were a story format we would learn the lessons in the story and then apply it to whatever exercises there were but I would have the answers to verify we were on the right track. I don't need a separate book telling me how to do the lesson or how to present the lesson, etc. :iagree: I would LOVE this!!!! Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 This blogpost from hmsindefatigable lists a couple of interesting resources for a secular study of logic and philosophy. Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohru Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Oh Kareni! Thank you so much for that link. I've been searching and have become frustrated with the lack of resources, however remembered that blog but couldn't find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 1. Thorough treatment of the topic. 2. Background info for teacher--ala Rightstart math--so I am learning WHY I am teaching this, in this particular way. 3. Scripted\well-organized\logical!! 4. No angry secularists please. As long as it's an evenhanded, nonsectarian treatment of logic as a discipline, I personally have no problem with the question of the existence of God or other religious questions that are relevant to the discussion. 5. Reference list for further reading and study. 6. I prefer discussion to written exercises, so a format that lends itself to discussion would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I'd be ecstatic to see well done, agenda-free courses on any of the branches of Logic. The current offering for the home education market are beneath contempt in the overwhelming intrusion of the publisher/author's political and theological positions into the works. I'd like to see materials no family would feel the need to shrink from due to "world-view" advocacy. Just straight-forward logic. Too much to hope for? Bill (ever hopeful :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in SEVA Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I don't know what I want. I would be happy with just about any format as long as it is secular. Please encourage your friend to write away. We will buy it!!!!! :iagree: If you are sending your friend a list of people interested, please include my name. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trixie Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 What timing! I recently joined this site (hello!) in hopes of finding secular middle-school logic materials. I've rejected several and am beginning to despair. I'd like to see something along the lines of "The Art of Argument," but without the political/social biases and the use of hot-button subjects such as abortion and rape (yes, rape) as examples. With that in mind, can anyone recommend something? We've long since finished all of the Dandylion and Logic Safari type materials, as well as several books on analogies, etc., and are champing at the bit for something ... more. Is either "Introductory Logic" or "Traditional Logic" secular, or at least "secular enough"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 The Canon Press logic texts are not secular enough. I'm willing to have some religion in the mix, but that was way too much for this religious gal. (It's very Calvinist.) I don't know about Cothran. I would love to see a logic text that doesn't have an agenda. I've been looking for one and failing. So put me on the list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 Thanks everyone. I'll pass this on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Did anything ever come of this? Or did anyone else produce a secular logic course for middle school? :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satori Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Include our name as a future customer! Oh, I just saw this was from two years ago. I hope one is in the works. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Oh, I just saw this was from two years ago. I hope one is in the works. :) Sorry, he managed to get full time employment and is now a somewhat overworked technical writer. The project is on indefinite hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Sorry, he managed to get full time employment and is now a somewhat overworked technical writer. The project is on indefinite hold. So what do you plan to use instead? I mean, beyond the Critical Thinking, Prufrock and Mindbender workbooks. TiA :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I know this is an old post but since some are still interested in a secular logic program I thought you might look into this. The link to the sample looks amazing. I haven't seen any samples of the TMs but I'd love to have all of his books just to read to my dc. He also has written this book that I'm thinking of getting...looks interesting. You can find the primary and middle school books that are shown on the Montclair website on Amazon but I only saw one TM (to much $ imo). Anyway just an FYI for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm planning to use The Snake and the Fox. It's secular and written for a high school or a first year college elective course, but I think can be used for middle school as well. I would describe it as decidedly light for a college text, but much could be gained from running class seminars (something the author recommends), so the material shouldn't be too difficult for a motivated middle grade student. It's structured not unlike Life of Fred in that some of the teaching takes place in the solutions in the back. As you can see from one of the Amazon reviews, the student is expected to think their way through the material, something the reviewer in question obviously did not like. Our local Saturday Academy occasionally offers courses based on the IAPC materials mentioned by 5LittleMonkeys. I purchased the first two years of the program a few years back. Unfortunately, as amazing as they are, they are designed to be facilitated seminars, and much is lost by doing them one-on-one. It's more effort than I want to put in, but if SA offers Harry Stottlemeier again in the next year or two, I'll have DD the Elder enrolled in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Aime and Moira, thank you very much for the links. I was relieved to see some secular logic books; this is the first time I have seen these references. I have subscribed to this thread so that I can access the Amazon links when its time to buy these books for my dd. I have also downloaded the Harry Stottlemeier book from the eric.gov link for reading myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna in Texas Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Our local Saturday Academy occasionally offers courses based on the IAPC materials mentioned by 5LittleMonkeys. I purchased the first two years of the program a few years back. Unfortunately, as amazing as they are, they are designed to be facilitated seminars, and much is lost by doing them one-on-one. It's more effort than I want to put in, but if SA offers Harry Stottlemeier again in the next year or two, I'll have DD the Elder enrolled in a heartbeat. Do you think these books could be used with a philosophically savvy person :tongue_smilie: without the $$$$$ guides? I took these off my list years ago because of the price and forgot about them. Now that we're doing Sophie's World and have an interest, I wonder if just the text would encourage enough conversation. We plan on getting The Snake and the Fox for 8th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Do you think these books could be used with a philosophically savvy person :tongue_smilie: without the $$$$$ guides? I took these off my list years ago because of the price and forgot about them. Now that we're doing Sophie's World and have an interest, I wonder if just the text would encourage enough conversation.Since I've only seen the TM's for the first two years, I'd wait and see what the verdict is from the folks on the middle grade board. However, if the setup is similar, I suspect you'd get nowhere near the full experience out of it. Though running it for one with TM's it would be much more work than I'm willing to put in to adapt the materials for what would be, relatively speaking, a diminished experience outside its ideal seminar format. Is there any chance you could run it as a co-op and share the price of the TM with the other families? It would still be a tremendous amount of work on the part of the facilitator (IAPC actually runs training sessions), but I think you'd get the most out of it. We plan on getting The Snake and the Fox for 8th.There are usually cheap copies floating around, so it's a low risk proposition. I quite like it, though I wouldn't recommend as the sole text for upper level work. Dunno though, maybe my expectations are too high? :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna in Texas Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Since I've only seen the TM's for the first two years, I'd wait and see what the verdict is from the folks on the middle grade board. However, if the setup is similar, I suspect you'd get nowhere near the full experience out of it. Though running it for one with TM's it would be much more work than I'm willing to put in to adapt the materials for what would be, relatively speaking, a diminished experience outside its ideal seminar format. Is there any chance you could run it as a co-op and share the price of the TM with the other families? It would still be a tremendous amount of work on the part of the facilitator (IAPC actually runs training sessions), but I think you'd get the most out of it. I don't know if I'm that interested in the TM if you're going to throw around words like 'facilitator'. :tongue_smilie: It's something I may consider if dd keeps her interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I wonder if an older student and I could just read through the Stottlemeier books though and glean something from them? I'm just basing that on the sample I read. Not as a full logic program of coarse, maybe as a supplement. I'd hate to miss out on the books just because the TM is difficult to administer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'd be ecstatic to see well done, agenda-free courses on any of the branches of Logic. The current offering for the home education market are beneath contempt in the overwhelming intrusion of the publisher/author's political and theological positions into the works. I'd like to see materials no family would feel the need to shrink from due to "world-view" advocacy. Just straight-forward logic. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna in Texas Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I wonder if an older student and I could just read through the Stottlemeier books though and glean something from them? I'm just basing that on the sample I read. Not as a full logic program of coarse, maybe as a supplement. I'd hate to miss out on the books just because the TM is difficult to administer. I'm going to read over the Stottlemeier pdf during our week off in April and see what I can come up with. I'm writing questions for Sophie's World and we've gleaned much from our discussions there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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