Teen "love"...

[Cheryl in NM]

I think you need to pass this to dh. He and ds need to have some man to man conversations. If the law has to be laid down, he does it. If questions need to be answered and boundaries set then dh answers, dh sets.

 

It is natural for him to be separating from you and identifying with his dad more and more. It's happening here too so you aren't alone in this. He can't have those conversations with you. It has to be a man, one he respects. In my house dh would be putting a stop to the snide comments as well. " no one talks to my wife that way" goes a long way to reminding the young man of his place and yours.

 

This makes sense. Dh has told him that no one talks to his wife that way. But ds does it when his dad isn't around. I tell him that he can't talk to me that way, but I have to remind him, sometimes, several times a day. I understand that he needs to separate from me. Dh does agree that this is a serious issue. We've had more of a chance to talk about it and he's had an opportunity to think about it. I also sent him a transcript of a conversation between ds and gf that was pretty steamy.

 

There are 2 issues that concern me.

1. Ds's feelings and "obsessive" interest in this girl. This tells me that there is something lacking, a void that should be filled within the family.

2. The deceit and lack of remorse for disobedience and deceit.

 

How do I punish #2 without it appearing that I'm punishing for #1?

[Joanne]

I'm not slogging through 7+ pages to say:

 

Yes, they are young.

Yes, it's too young to understand, grasp and participate in an emotionally heavy, exclusive relationship.

Yes, it's too young for physical affection.

 

But you can't *stop* verbal exchange, I would not deny contact. I'd have ongoing talks about relationships, age appropriateness, preparedness and the sacred nature of romantic love. I'd not diminish their perceived feelings. I'd impose restrictions such as the ones you have in place.

 

But I believe that coming down hard on this would, for MY FAMILY AND FAMILY DYNAMIC, backfire.

[Staci in MO]

;)

 

I would shut it down, mostly for the fact that they did sneak away from church. And although I realize that you do run the risk of making the relationship more attractive by forbidding it, I don't think kids that age have the wherewithal to maintain those emotions for that long. In fact, the romance would likely fizzle out on its own soon enough, but I'd be more worried about a pattern that is being set than anything else.

 

My first love was Donny Osmond when I was about four. I know all about young children developing crushes. I know it's real, and I know it feels real to them. But, I still think it's appropriate for parents to step in and say "You're just too young for that. Period. When you're older, but not now."

 

I do think that some kids that age develop feelings for members of the opposite sex earlier than others, but I also that when kids that age start forming boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, they're doing it because they've been led to believe it's the "thing to do."

 

For example, little Suzy's big sister has a boyfriend, so Suzy, who wants to be just like sis, gets a boyfriend, too. Suzy's tells her friend Janie that Janie should "date" Bobby. Richie's older brother keeps asking Richie if he has a girlfriend, so Richie starts "dating" Janie's friend Sally. Next thing you know, the entire 6th grade class is a mini Peyton Place.

 

On the other hand, if Suzy, Janie, Bobby, Richie, and Sally had ALL been told from the start that they couldn't date until they were sixteen, they would have admired each other from afar, sent each other sweet, innocent Valentines in February, and then grown up to write songs like "My Eyes Adored You." Instead they sit around and watch "tween" shows on cable and it just feeds it all. And they have NOTHING to look forward to, because at 16 they've "been there, done that."

 

Don't you see how much better it would be if I ran the world. :D

 

Sure, I liked boys a LOT at age twelve and thirteen. And I felt a LOT of pressure to "have a boyfriend." It did me far more harm than good. If my parents would have put down their collective foot, I would have stomped and rolled my eyes and dramatically told them I was the most misunderstood teenager alive. I might have even tried to sneak around (again, out of pressure to conform). But in the end I would have been a bit relieved. I also like to think I would have started a Great Books study on my own in all my free time, but perhaps that's pushing it. And besides, even though they did let me date, I still stomped and rolled my eyes and dramatically told them I was the most misunderstood teenager alive, so it's not like they were spared any drama by letting me date.

 

I think our society gives "emotions" and "feelings" way too much weight these days. Yes, they're real. Yes, they're strong. But no, they DON'T have to rule you. Our teens are going to be feeling pangs of attraction to other people for the rest of their lives. The sooner they learn that they don't need to act on every romantic feeling they have, the better.

[K&Rs Mom]

;)

The sooner they learn that they don't need to act on every romantic feeling they have, the better.

 

:iagree: How many of the world's problems that would solve! Not just romantic feelings, but self-control of all sorts.

[Cheryl in NM]

I know Dh should be the one to impose the new rules/punishments but ds just asked if he could called the girl. He didn't accept the no so I told him that since they didn't exercise the self-control and discipline that they were asked to assert that it would be done for him for awhile. That means no phone calls and not socializing at church. I emailed her dad with the trascript of the steamy email convo and told him that dinner for this weekend was off. Maybe we could get together after the teens had cooled down.

 

Funny thing is....ds seemed relieved that I placed these restrictions on him.

 

I have hope! I feel a responsibility to stop this even though it might make the relationship seem more attrative to him. I have within my power the means to control this situation; ie, the basic physical contact between the 2.

[Staci in MO]

Funny thing is....ds seemed relieved that I placed these restrictions on him.

 

I know it's been a long, long, time ago, but I really believe I would have felt the same way at that age.

 

Best wishes to you!

[Kathy in MD]

.....

 

Funny thing is....ds seemed relieved that I placed these restrictions on him.

 

......

 

That's sounds as if he's getting a lot of outside pressure to have a girlfriend, or push the relationship beyond the boundaries he's comfortable with. Does he need a pep talk that he can always blame mom to avoid doing things he doesn't want to do or makes him feel uncomfortable?

[Veronica in VA]

I know Dh should be the one to impose the new rules/punishments but ds just asked if he could called the girl. He didn't accept the no so I told him that since they didn't exercise the self-control and discipline that they were asked to assert that it would be done for him for awhile. That means no phone calls and not socializing at church. I emailed her dad with the trascript of the steamy email convo and told him that dinner for this weekend was off. Maybe we could get together after the teens had cooled down.

 

Funny thing is....ds seemed relieved that I placed these restrictions on him.

 

I have hope! I feel a responsibility to stop this even though it might make the relationship seem more attrative to him. I have within my power the means to control this situation; ie, the basic physical contact between the 2.

 

Since he seems relieved, it does look like he was feeling pressure - either from the girl, friends, or both. Good call!

 

Veronica

[EmilyK]

I'm not sure any of these will work in this scenario, but just in case...

 

--What about switching to a different church for a while? Or whatever organization is leading to them being together? Sounds extreme, but I know we changed churches a lot when I was a kid.

 

--What about counseling for him, or for the family? The part of this that is really familiar to me is his hunger for contact outside the family, potential loneliness. Sad for me to contemplate, but that is an age many kids are looking for separation. A counselor could help him work through these feelings without being a parent. Counseling/therapy has always been helpful to me and others I know. Might help you clarify your boundaries with him too (i.e. help both parents be on the same page and share the burden of enforcement reasonably).

 

--I know there are books out there that answer kids' questions about their bodies etc but from an age appropriate perspective. Maybe post that question in the curriculum area, or look at amazon, or the hoagies gifted site?

 

--Are there older male family members or family friends that he can talk to?

 

--I know you can't move, but I remember feeling very isolated from friends when I was that age because we lived someplace that felt remote to me (maybe why I live in the city now!), so maybe an acknowledgment that this is where you and your husband choose to live but you get that it is lonely for him.

 

--Are there other groups that he could get involved with? Maybe have more different circles of friends?

 

--Are there family members he can go visit/stay with? One thing I (and other friends) found helpful at that age was going to visit an aunt and uncle, stay with grandparents for part of the summer etc. You complain, but then it is good to be away from friends and parents, and then it gets you out of the usual dynamic. And hopefully strengthens your connection with those family members.

 

I totally feel your angst. The lying, and the intense romantic relationship -- both are really troubling and are age inappropriate.

 

As a totally unrelated matter, how do people navigate these matters if they (we) aren't coming from a conservative religious perspective? Trust me, I find this as totally inappropriate as everyone else here. But I wouldn't if the couple was 17 or 18. I completely respect the folks who aren't allowing dating at all, but that's not our perspective. I don't want my kids to marry until their late 20s at the earliest, and I expect that they will date in high school and beyond. I almost feel like it might be better to navigate some of this stuff for the first time when they are at home rather than off at college. But we're in our late 40s and have no idea what is appropriate these days (our boys are 10 and 7). I certainly don't want them to be part of hook up culture, and I want them to be respectful to women. But telling them to never date would be overstating what we expect or even want. Thoughts welcome.

[HayesW]

Cheryl, obviously you did the right thing. Good mama!

[katilac]

When we were kids we looked things up in a dictionary. The plain and simple facts w/o the porn. There were ways to look things up before the internet. He can utilize those things.

 

dang, your family owns far more interesting dictionaries than mine does!

 

I'm obviously avoiding work, because I was motivated enough to check ;), and our dictionary appears limited to intercourse and the two most common forms of oral sex - - and one would have to know the formal names in order to look those up. I'm thinking most 12-yr-olds are using slang!

 

There are plenty of books that address the facts without porn. I'd really hesitate to recommend anything in particular, because I'm sure the exact same book would horrify some people, while others would consider it lacking in the basics. You can usually get a pretty good feel for the content on Amazon by reading the editorial description and reviews.

[Cheryl in NM]

dang, your family owns far more interesting dictionaries than mine does!

 

I'm obviously avoiding work, because I was motivated enough to check ;), and our dictionary appears limited to intercourse and the two most common forms of oral sex - - and one would have to know the formal names in order to look those up. I'm thinking most 12-yr-olds are using slang!

 

There are plenty of books that address the facts without porn. I'd really hesitate to recommend anything in particular, because I'm sure the exact same book would horrify some people, while others would consider it lacking in the basics. You can usually get a pretty good feel for the content on Amazon by reading the editorial description and reviews.

 

What would the search words be?

[Haiku]

Is keeping your kid off the internet okay? It just seems so restrictive, but if he won't control himself what else can I do?

 

Of course it's ok. My oldest dd, who is 14, was banned from the internet for six months for disobeying our rules regarding computer usage.

 

As far as the dating, I think what your son and this girl are doing is completely inappropriate and I would encourage you to limit their interaction. There is no reason that a 12 year old needs to be sending 10 emails a day to the same person. After banning the child from the internet for looking up sex acts, I would then limit his telephone contact with the girl to 2-3 times per week, 15 minutes per time. I would allow them to interact socially, supervised by me, twice a month. That's it.

 

I wasted so much time as a teen on boyfriends. That time would have been far better spent on other things, and I have discussed this many times with my oldest child. While I realize I can't stop her from having a boyfriend, however she defines that, I certainly can (and will, if necessary) limit her actions. She can date after she graduates from high school.

 

Tara

 

ETA: If your son is speaking disrespectfully to you, he can spend a lot more time sitting on the couch/on his bed. He's allowed to get up when he can speak politely.

Edited June 15, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[Melissa in Australia]

dang, your family owns far more interesting dictionaries than mine does!

 

I'm obviously avoiding work, because I was motivated enough to check ;), and our dictionary appears limited to intercourse and the two most common forms of oral sex - - and one would have to know the formal names in order to look those up. I'm thinking most 12-yr-olds are using slang!

.

 

My mum had the Websters dictionary,the really big one. It has a whole section at the back. she kept it on the top shelf, which got us curious.

I now have the same dictionary. I keep it on the shelf with all the other dictionaries so as not to draw attention to it.:001_smile:

[cin]

I wasted so much time as a teen on boyfriends. That time would have been far better spent on other things, and I have discussed this many times with my oldest child. While I realize I can't stop her from having a boyfriend, however she defines that, I certainly can (and will, if necessary) limit her actions. She can date after she graduates from high school.

 

 

It just occurred to me that there are many volunteer organizations who could make good use of a young healthy teen age boy. Habitat for Humanity comes to mind, but I'm sure there's many more. He's a teen age boy, and has raging hormones. The best way to handle that (according to my husband) is to work him hard. He'll be too tired at the end of the day to think about much else besides a hot shower, lotsa food and sleep.

[Karenciavo]

I'm glad your son is going along with your boundaries, but Cheryl please forgive me. So many people used the phrase "shut it down" and I keep picturing Liz Lemon from 30 Rock shouting "Deal Breaker!" on the episode when she was giving out relationship advice. You probably have no idea what I'm rambling about. Sorry. My fingers, they had to get it out. :lol:

[katilac]

My mum had the Websters dictionary,the really big one. It has a whole section at the back. she kept it on the top shelf, which got us curious.

I now have the same dictionary. I keep it on the shelf with all the other dictionaries so as not to draw attention to it.:001_smile:

 

I have no idea why this is amusing me so much, but it is!

 

Maybe your mom kept it on the top shelf on purpose, figuring that you guys would get curious and check it out (hence, saving her from a boatload of questions, lol!).

[katilac]

What would the search words be?

 

On Amazon? I do find their search function a bit wonky at times.

 

You can put in something like "teen guide to sex" or "boys puberty sex" or the name of any puberty book like "what's happening to my body" and then work from the list that appears.

 

What I like to do is click on a book, and then click on "similar items" or "customers who bought this also bought." Put likely items on a shopping list or wish list as you go, so you don't forget them. Then, when you have a decent list of possibles, you can easily go back and review them again.

[Cheryl in NM]

On Amazon? I do find their search function a bit wonky at times.

 

You can put in something like "teen guide to sex" or "boys puberty sex" or the name of any puberty book like "what's happening to my body" and then work from the list that appears.

 

What I like to do is click on a book, and then click on "similar items" or "customers who bought this also bought." Put likely items on a shopping list or wish list as you go, so you don't forget them. Then, when you have a decent list of possibles, you can easily go back and review them again.

 

Thanks! We went to the library yesterday and I got What's Happening to my Body and It's Perfectly Normal. The normal book does not fall in line with our beliefs, but I've already summarized those beliefs with him. Hopefully that's enough because I found that book to be more light-hearted. Of course, he rolled his eyes when I gave them to him and told me that it's embarrassing to look at/read a book about sex! I told him that there was nothing to be embarrassed about; this way he can ask questions that the book doesn't cover.

 

Thanks to everyone for your great advice! It's hard to actually let him begin to grow up and to learn where the lines are. So much is a grey area right now. I don't want to crush his spirit, but I want to instill the set of values that I believe is correct. Wow, I'm glad he's the last one! Then it's grandbabies!

[skaterbabs]

It might be a good time for a nice unit study on Romeo & Juliet and how young teens often don't see what's in front of them until something bad happens. After all, if those two children (R & J were about 12 & 14) had been less....impetuous, they wouldn't have died.;)

 

 

:grouphug:

[Danestress]

I think you need to pass this to dh. He and ds need to have some man to man conversations. If the law has to be laid down, he does it. If questions need to be answered and boundaries set then dh answers, dh sets.

 

It is natural for him to be separating from you and identifying with his dad more and more. It's happening here too so you aren't alone in this. He can't have those conversations with you. It has to be a man, one he respects. In my house dh would be putting a stop to the snide comments as well. " no one talks to my wife that way" goes a long way to reminding the young man of his place and yours.

 

I'm sure every family is different.

 

And I do think that Dad needs to have the s@x talk with his son.

 

But I have three boys - one raised to adulthood (yeah!) and two who are 11, and I think Mom really needs to work on shutting the snide comments down on her own.

 

I think Moms have to back off kids (boys and girls) at this age, let them flex their muscles, make some mistakes, make decisions for themselves, and just have space to think and breath.

 

But when it comes to politeness and respect, I believe that with my son, it was important that I be able to demand respectful behavior. My DH just wasn't home during the day, and my life would have been miserable if I didn't figure out for myself how to be a good, strong leader in my own home and elicit the kind of behavior I desire. It was a fight sometimes, but it was worth fighting for, and I think my son's teen years were better and more peaceful because I took on that fight and won it.

 

YMMV, but for me, part of effective leadership is learning to gain cooperation from those who maybe don't want to really be there and really need to let you know that. I always say that at a certain age, boys just really resent having to have mothers. But the truth is, my son had a mother and she was the kind of mother who expected respect in her own home. I didn't think that the fact that he made it difficult meant I should turn the job over to DH, though he certainly did his part and was involved.

[iluvmy4blessings]

I can really relate to what you are going through right now. Unfortunately I have been going through the same exact thing but with a daughter instead of a son. My oldest daughter is 13 and she has been boy crazy for awhile now. I told her she was not allowed to date or "go out" with anyone. So she just did it behind my back instead. It is mostly talking on the phone or through the computer. I have been through this about 4-6 times in the last 18 months. No matter what I do, she will find a way. She pretends to agree with me on the surface, but a few months later I discover she has just been talking to the person behind my back. It is so frustrating .I have tried and tried to get her to understand my point of view but it's like she is completely self focused. She only sees what she wants and that's it. She will say "yes m'am" and appear to accept my decision. In a few months though, I'll discover it was all an act. It's really hurt our relationship because I feel very resentful of her defiance. I don't understand it, because I would not have dared to defy my own mother like this growing up. I feel that she is really doing damage to our relationship with this lying and rebellion, but all she can see is her own wants/needs/desires. So I have had to take away her cell phone and password protect all the computers in the house. Even still, she will get on the house phone and talk that way. I've almost had to change my phone number. I suppose that my post was only one of empathy and saying "I understand". I am a single mom so I have zero back up and that is probably the main problem for me. Her father is in the Army and in another country altogether right now so it's really me on my own. If I was married, I would defintiely be relying on a husband to help me establish a stronger authority in her life. As of now, I'm relying on God to show me how to handle this situation. It's so hard because she is the oldest and setting a horrible example for her younger siblings.

 

I am also at a huge disadvantage, though, because I no longer am able to homeschool. I used to homeschool before my divorce (hubby left me for a younger model). I work full time and daughter is in public school. I still frequent these boards though for advice. I have considered moving in with my mother so I could potentially homeschool my oldest again. I guess homeschooling still doesn't shelter them from all the troubles in the world, however it helps!

[Haiku]

I told her she was not allowed to date or "go out" with anyone.

 

I have a 14 year old dd. I have discovered that I cannot restrict her thoughts but I can restrict her actions. She can't date, but I can't stop her from "having a boyfriend" if she so desires. She also goes to school, so were she to be "going out" with a boy at school, there is nothing I can do about that. I can, however, limit her phone time, her computer time, and her unsupervised social time.

 

I wouldn't worry so much about your dd talking to a boy on the phone, as long as it's for a reasonable amount of time and not obsessive.

 

Tara

[Cheryl in NM]

The girl's parents didn't get my email with the kids' steamy transcript. I had typed the addy in wrong, so I re-sent it, but I told the mom that it was read like a romance novel and that the kids had resumed a secret relationship. I told her that I felt that since the kids were given an opportunity show some self control and resumed a secret relationship I felt we needed to exert that control for them. I don't think she really agrees. She did apologize and say that she only has so much control over her daughter. I told her that it wasn't her fault;I thought the kids were just acting out their feelings and were either unable or unwilling to exercise the self control that we, as their parents, asked of them. She still wants the families to get together, but I told her that would have to wait until the kids cooled down. Ds is still not upset about internet and phone restriction so I think he was feeling pressured into growing up a little too quickly. His entire attitude has been better since I put a stop to this relationship.

[Heather in Neverland]

Ds is still not upset about internet and phone restriction so I think he was feeling pressured into growing up a little too quickly. His entire attitude has been better since I put a stop to this relationship.

 

Can I tell you something? When I was 14yo I was boy-crazy too (but really only in theory). My best friend started "going with" a 16yo boy. His best friend liked me and she thought it would be fun if the 4 of us could hang out together so she pressured me to "go with" him. I did.

 

He was 16yo and had a car. He picked me up for a date. My mom let me go because she thought it was "cute" and "harmless".

 

I remember VERY CLEARLY sitting in a restaurant with this boy thinking I wish my mom would have said no. I was worried about what may or may not happen after dinner was over...what he would be expecting of me. And I knew that whatever it was I would probably do it because I didn't want to be "uncool" or seen as a baby.

 

Luckily, he didn't pressure me to do more than kiss him (that time). But the point is, as much as I fought for my right to "date" him, what I really wanted was for my mom to SHUT IT DOWN. I needed to be able to blame her for it because it was to uncool to say I wasn't ready for it.

 

I deliberately did things that were against the rules (like come home past curfew from a date) so that she would get mad and stop me from seeing him. And I acted mad and fought like crazy with her but deep down I was so relieved.

 

Sometimes a parent HAS to be the bad cop so their children can save face with their peers.

[Staci in MO]

But the point is, as much as I fought for my right to "date" him, what I really wanted was for my mom to SHUT IT DOWN. I needed to be able to blame her for it because it was to uncool to say I wasn't ready for it.

 

I deliberately did things that were against the rules (like come home past curfew from a date) so that she would get mad and stop me from seeing him. And I acted mad and fought like crazy with her but deep down I was so relieved.

 

Sometimes a parent HAS to be the bad cop so their children can save face with their peers.

 

:iagree: I could have written this post. I remember feeling exactly the same way.

[Cheryl in NM]

Sometimes a parent HAS to be the bad cop so their children can save face with their peers.

 

Thank you! That's exactly how I feel. I just with HER MOM felt that way! I've explained this to her a few times. I guess I'll just have to make sure that I stick what I think is right and her opinion be ****ed. It's hard though because our church is so small. Really, only 30 members and this girl is the ONLY PERSON my son's age!

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

Sometimes a parent HAS to be the bad cop so their children can save face with their peers.

 

Actually, I remember being 17 and calling my mom to tell her I wanted to stay out later but I wanted her to say no. She said yes, but I pretended she said no and left. :crying:

[Haiku]

Actually, I remember being 17 and calling my mom to tell her I wanted to stay out later but I wanted her to say no. She said yes, but I pretended she said no and left. :crying:

 

I did things like that several times. I would say, "My parents would NEVER let me do that so I am not even going to bother to ask," even if I thought they might have let me.

 

I also had a code with my mom. If I didn't want to do something but felt pressured by friends to be able to do it, I would say to my mom, "Mom, you wouldn't let me XYZ, would you?" And she knew it was her job to say, "Nope."

 

My mom never objected to me blaming her for not being able to do something, even if she'd allowed me to do it but I didn't want to. I have a teenager in school, and when I tell her no and she objects, I say, "You can tell your friends that you have a mean mom or a mom who cares about you. I don't care if you blame me."

 

Tara

[Jean in Newcastle]

You know, just as girls can be pressured by boys to pursue a relationship that is deeper or more intense than they want, boys can be pressured by girls too. I wonder, if since the girl's mom says that she doesn't have much influence on her daughter, if this girl is looking for "family" closeness from your son. I know that I pursued relationships way too intensely because I was looking for something that I was missing at home (actually I wasn't even at home - I was at boarding school but you get the idea).

[Cheryl in NM]

You know, just as girls can be pressured by boys to pursue a relationship that is deeper or more intense than they want, boys can be pressured by girls too. I wonder, if since the girl's mom says that she doesn't have much influence on her daughter, if this girl is looking for "family" closeness from your son. I know that I pursued relationships way too intensely because I was looking for something that I was missing at home (actually I wasn't even at home - I was at boarding school but you get the idea).

 

This makes a lot of sense. The dad just returned from working out of state and works now. The mom is in college and this girl is responsible for her 3 younger siblings. I feel sorry for her. She didn't get to go to summer camp this year because she was needed at home. While I'm all for older kids helping out I think there's a line between helping and burdening.

[Heather in WI]

Can I tell you something? When I was 14yo I was boy-crazy too (but really only in theory). My best friend started "going with" a 16yo boy. His best friend liked me and she thought it would be fun if the 4 of us could hang out together so she pressured me to "go with" him. I did.

 

He was 16yo and had a car. He picked me up for a date. My mom let me go because she thought it was "cute" and "harmless".

 

I remember VERY CLEARLY sitting in a restaurant with this boy thinking I wish my mom would have said no.

 

 

I could have written this post, too. It saddens me that I grew up way too quickly. My mom was pretty naive ... I wish she would have had firmer boundaries.

[Renee in NC]

I could have written this post, too. It saddens me that I grew up way too quickly. My mom was pretty naive ... I wish she would have had firmer boundaries.

 

My mom and I recently discussed this. When I was 14, I started dating a man that was 21. I told her that I would have someone arrested if it were my child! She said, "If I would have done that you would have hated me!" My response? "So what! Short-term I might have hated you but long-term I would have been grateful!"

 

Now, I am glad in one way that she didn't - I have a 16yo ds because of that relationship and I wouldn't trade him for the world.;)