SNORT!!!! LOL - Today, no joke, in planning for next week I just about lost it when I read in R&S 8th (p107): "My uncle always buys Pilot pens and Ticonderoga pencils." And here I thought only the high school board was populated with pencil connoisseurs! Thanks for the laugh~ Rhonda (an avid medium-tip ball-point person myself)

One thing that has sort of slipped here is the Oral Review found only in the TM, because (miraculously!!!!) now both boys *want* to read the lesson by themselves. (This has been a *huge* time saver, and - so far - is working well!) I haven't noticed that it has really affected their memory for definitions, etc. - yet. I know in the 7th grade book that many of the Oral Review concepts were also in the Written Reviews, because I would cross them out and write "Do Written Review together" in my TM. So, here's hoping it's that way in all the books!

When we outline history (we don't outline science), it is part history, part "applied English" time. Yes, we are getting exposed to a basic historical happening that we may investigate further; but we are also noticing ways that whatever we are studying in writing is being worked out and applied within the piece we're outlining. It is rather difficult to put into words how the process goes, especially at the 8th grade level. But, I *do* find it helpful for reinforcing the lessons 8th-ds has been learning in unity and coherence and transitioning between sentences and paragraphs. Hopefully soon he will be ready to start truly re-writing the entire essay in his own words, using his outlines (usually only 4 or 5 paragraphs). This (I think - or at least hope!), will be an excellent introduction to expositive essays. I wouldn't characterize our outlining sessions as brilliant kid sits and does his work flawlessly without mom intervention, however. =) And, we have moved slowly through each step of the process - we've been working on this since 5th grade! I guess what I'm trying to say (I've deleted an awful lot!), is that there is more than one way to learn history and writing. So, if you wind up not outlining, the world certainly won't end! But, if you decide that you really do want to follow WTM's recs for history and writing, then also please know that it is OK to continue the outlining and such into the high school years. (This is from the Frequently Asked Questions section of the website, under How to Start in the Middle.): 4) Combine the logic stage and rhetoric stage study of history by using the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia and the outlining/compositions we suggest for the logic stage. But make these compositions more complex (rather than simply summarizing the information in the Kingfisher History, use outside sources as well). As you progress through the Kingfisher History, read through a shortened Great Books list at the appropriate time; when you're reading about Greece, stop and do Plato; when you're reading about Elizabethan England, do Shakespeare; etc. The entire article is here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/starting.php I have seen great benefit to having a wholistic approach to our school day, and I think the outlining helps facilitate that ideal because (in addition to boosting composition awareness) it frees us from feeling bound to a textbook or someone else's compilation of a curriculum. I *wish* I felt comfortable enough with science to cut our curriculum chord there as well! Utter chaos has erupted both times I tried. hth, Rhonda ETA: in the CD I have of one of SWB's middle school sessions, her preference is to take notes of KHE, then outline from another source *if* it is a subject the dc wants to investigate further. (She also really pushed using primary sources when dc wants to know more - we'll be saving that for high school for my oldest. Maybe the younger can join along.)

Hey, Colleen! I am checking the boards for the first time in weeks. (We still don't have internet at home.) It's so good to hear from you! Thanks for your encouraging post. My 5th grader has really been struggling this year. I knew it would be tough, but knowing something will be tough and living through it are often two different things. :tongue_smilie: Keep on keepin' on! Rhonda

I know every child develops on his/her own time table, but my own sons (now 13 and 10yo) very much followed Piaget's order of develop and were/are quite firmly entrenched in concrete thinking until puberty calmed down a bit. If your ds in only 7.5 years old, I would recommend sticking with learning about the patterns in the tangible world - not the sneaky, conniving ways people try to trick each other into changing their beliefs/habits/attitudes or the very abstract world of debating over ideas and semantics. At 7th grade, go for it. Of course, ymmv and all that ;) Rhonda

Oh, my parents aren't in the least materialistic. They are too practical for that - LOL! I'm *really* sorry - I didn't mean to imply you are a snob, nor did I mean to intimate that we're close to living on the public dole - LOL! (And, I have two college degrees - and am the type of person who would really *LOVE* to go back and get another.) =) Rhonda

****Coffee****** --- STRONG Coffee!!!! =) Rhonda

I *think* it's because her kids find the Intro/Interm DVD's boring. (There's even a slight reference to this in one of her blog entries.) And, I do not mean to imply that she said the TL DVD's were riveting - LOL - she didn't say one way or the other. In my plans, we're only watching 5-15 minutes of video at a time - and only every other day. So, I think some popcorn will get us through! And, that is doing both Intro and Interm in one year - if you spread each one out over a *whole* year, that would be even less video time. And, I appreciate that Intro Logic has bright, crisp pages and lots of white space. My ds will look at the book and see it as a continuation of the "Logic is a quick/easy/fun class" we've had the last two years. The TL simply *looked* difficult. I thought about asking SWB, "Should I sell my Intro Logic?" But I decided that was a no-brainer. In the second edition of WTM, she always included schedules for people who were using what had been recommended in the first edition so that they didn't feel they had to change curriculum just because the current rec had changed. I think it's all good! Rhonda

I will try to remember that next year. I'm seriously considering switching to Abeka for high school (though I'll keep R&S for middle school). Thanks, and good luck with that baby - I see he's coming soon! Rhonda

SWB is dropping the rec for the Intro/Interm Logic courses now that Memoria Press has a DVD class available for Traditional Logic. (But, I'm still going to do the other.) hth, Rhonda

As the bohemian daughter of uber-practical parents, I can tell the OP and my parents would *so* get along - LOL! I also think that very pragmatic people (probably like OP) tend to equate financial security with success and *that* is "logical" to them. And, no, logic and philosophy (and other humanity-related arts) simply aren't necessary to make money. Heck, even college isn't a prerequisite to extraordinary wealth! But, I have some innate longing that is not satisfied with that rather common-place, common-sensical scenario. (This is where my mother rolls her eyes!) Unfortunately this "longing" is accompanied by an idealistic view of the world and other people that is often at odds with reality. (Yes, Colleen, I *So* relate to your post!) I see this with my kids, too. It has been painful to watch their disillusionment that the world really *isn't* the way Barney portrays it. I hope that by proactively studying and explicitly teaching them logic and rhetoric they will be spared some of the heartache I have endured to get to where I am. (And, maybe they'll become really good public speakers in the process as well!) :001_smile: Rhonda

Actually, if I didn't have R&S here, and *if* Abeka just had review questions in it's grammar book, I would be very tempted to do Abeka with the Wordsmith series. It covers the same material as R&S, but in a more modern-kid friendly way (esp. for boys). But, even if I did that, I would *still* be sure that those lessons were being constantly reinforced in the content subjects. (Although one thing I *do* really like about R&S is that, just as it reviews the grammar year after year, it reviews the writing principles every year as well. Not sure how you would get that repeat-coverage with Wordsmith. Sigh - unfortunately, we tend to need a LOT of review!) :001_smile: Rhonda

Sorry, no answer - just another question: What will you use for writing? I was thinking about switching from R&S to Abeka next year (9th), too. Thanks, Rhonda

My ds started hs'ing in his 5th grade year, and will be finishing SOTW/Kingfisher this year in 8th. I told her I was worried that a college-level Spielvogel might be too big a jump for 9th. She assured me her book would be great, and that it would be easier on him than the Spielvogel (though she did say it does *not* edit out the more risque details). I should have thought to ask her exactly how she used it with *her* son! :blush: hth, Rhonda

Bless your heart! Just post some quick - "I agree" or "TYSVM" type posts! Or, head over to the General Board, and they'll help you get up to 50 posts in no time. =) Rhonda

Colleen, I think you are on the right path. What I've tried to do is re-use the R&S exercises as often as possible in our history and science writing. We usually discuss what the topic sentence is going to be, and should it be developed in order of time, or the order of importance. These are all lessons from R&S-4 that we'll be carrying over to 5th grade. Then, as we learn more, we'll apply what we've learned. So, yesterday's lesson 4 of R&S-5 was about asking questions to help spur your thoughts about details. So, the next time we have a topic in history or science that will be either a narrative or a description, I'll prime his thinking-pump by helping him brainstorm some questions as part of the pre-writing process. And, hopefully, we'll continue doing this each time until it just becomes a natural part of the process. And, the next lesson I see is Lesson 9 on "Exact Words". I know this is something that we'll be working on for years, as his vocabulary develops. But, after studying this lesson, I'll keep it bookmarked. Then, after each narration, it will be one of those things I'll ask, "Hmm...let's look and see if there are any words that could be more exact or more expressive." And, we'll read his narration once or twice looking for just that. And, we'll repeat that with *every* narration, until the process of intentionally thinking about "use exact words" becomes a habit - and, eventually he will start thinking about it during his draft. (BTW, there will probably be times when we *don't* find a word we want to change - and that's ok, too.) Last year, I went through the trouble to make a "list of things to do" for my then-7th grader, where I wrote down all these type of steps. But, we never actually *used* it. It was too cumbersome. So, trust yourself. You *will* remember these lessons, and months from now you'll find yourself saying, "Remember how we learned to avoid words like "good" when a juicier word will be more accurate? Can you think of a better word to describe this?" And, it will just naturally come to you. Hope that helps a bit! Rhonda

Well, I was about to suggest the 5th grade reading list in WTM, but it definitely includes some Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece. =) Rhonda

I think the Teacher's Guides make the books *so* unnecessarily complicated. The plan (this time around!) is to follow the routine in WTM: make flashcards Mon, drill Tues-Thurs, and complete the exercises on Friday. =) Rhonda

Thanks! =)

I'm so relieved! Keeping you all in my prayers~ Rhonda

Wanting something to really spark my ds. We're using Apologia, which has been the "best" science, because it's the one that gets done, iykwim. I'm fresh out of listening to SWB, and so there's a part of me that wants to just change all-things-Science for this year. But, really, I don't think that's wise. Just posting about "should I dump the Apologia" talked me down from that ledge - LOL! But, I *do* wonder if these DVD's might help spark ds's interest - maybe we could watch them in lieu of "The Most Extreme" or something? Or, do you think they would still be over an 8th-grader's head? Any thoughts? Thanks! Rhonda

So far we have avoided the Wii. But, I think everyone should hear SWB's example of "how to do a Jr. or Sr. Project" about World of Warcraft (online game)! =) Rhondabee

I think it's definitely too vivid for 4-6 years old. But, I do have sensitive kids. hth, Rhonda

This is a relatively new friend from church, who has recently recovered from cancer, is living on some sort of government assistance that will end when/if she gets any sort of job, yet she seems to have very few marketable skills.... At any rate, she can't even afford the roof over her head, so she was hoping for a non-contested divorce. There is no money for a lawyer of any sort. (I guess pro-bono cases only happen on tv?) Beyond that...well, given my propensity to try to "save people from themselves", I try to help as I can without getting too involved. I will ask her, though, when the opportunity presents itself. Thanks, and good luck! =) Rhonda

I wouldn't confront the dh directly. I would be afraid if he was tipped off that someone knew the when's, where's and who's involved, then your dear friend will *never* be able to get proof of an affair. Without such proof, I would think it would be very hard to get a fair financial settlement if she did sue for divorce. I think it would be best to tell dear friend, help her find a really good lawyer, and let said experienced lawyer determine how best to "catch" the dh. Of course, all I have is indirect experience. But, I do have one dear friend whose husband absolutely refuses to sign the papers, and never will because without a court order to support her, she is at his (very cruel) financial mercy. Prayers for you and your dear friend! Rhonda