Jumping in, I *think* the main difference between the two isn't the degree of "mental" math; but the conceptual nature of Singapore. Some kids are just *not ready* to conceptualize math in the grammar stage (some kids are, of course). Those kids that aren't, however, can be taught math skills ~ even mental math ~ by more traditional "drill and kill" curriculum. My 10yo ds has really firmed up his math skills, and hence his mental mathematical "concept map", by using Rod & Staff for about 2-3 months last year. Which, frankly, doesn't make sense to me - how can a curriculum that isn't explicitly teaching concepts increase his understanding of them? But, this is reality in our home. ymmv =) It isn't that one is better than the other - just that they meet different needs. =) Rhonda

But, honestly, (and I was once a new person myself!) it's so much easier for the new people to learn the abbreviations than for *everyone* to type out everything. Besides, how else will you learn what you like and what you don't if you're not googling every curriculum mentioned that's new to you? Dodging tomatoes~ Rhonda

And, I'll agree with all three - even tho' I've *never* owned or used TOG! I bet once you start looking through TOG, you'll be re-impressed by all that convinced you to buy it. FWIW, I'm doing my own thing based on WTM, and every time I get to new book, I get a sinking feeling, wishing that I could open up someone else's plans and not have *so much* to do for myself. (Ha! - Like I didn't completely pre-plan SL when we used that - LOL!) But...once I sit down and get to work, I start seeing the connections, and get *really* excited with everything that we're going to be learning and reading next year - and that helps me forget all the "other stuff" that we just won't be able to get to. I would guess it's the same no matter *which* curriculum you choose. =) Rhonda

If he's used Apologia for years, then I'm guessing that would be the elementary books? I found them a little tedious, myself. But, the upper levels are totally different. Different author, and very hands-on. Or, you might look at the Physical Science by Prentice Hall (Science Explorer). (I would also let SL handle the Geography.) Best wishes! Rhonda

Just a word of encouragement.... We'll be starting Henle in a few weeks, after completing LCII last year. I've only gone through the first six weeks of lessons (using the MODG syllabus), but I think you'll be *so* pleasantly surprised when you actually start reading through the Henle for yourself. You'll know the vocabulary and the concepts for the first part of the book. I was really, really worried (having never had Latin myself), but it really looks like LC 1 and 2 were great preparation. Hopefully, someone else will chime in! Rhonda

My oldest was in public school til 5th, so he didn't count. But, my now-turning-5th grader hit a wall with Bob Jones this past year, so I pulled out Rod & Staff 4th which I already had here. It was just what he needed developmentally. The Bob Jones was asking for too much abstractness (logic stage thinking). So, my next dc won't start for awhile (she's just turned 3), but I'm thinking we'll do Rod & Staff during the grammar, concrete-thinking years. Then, we'll switch over to something more abstract - possibly Singapore, maybe BJU - probably in 5th. Not sure of all those details, yet - thankfully, we have plenty of time! :001_smile: Rhonda

Sent you an email. Rhonda

Ok - this so illustrates the problem I would have with using *any* "Christian" curriculum that attempts to explain its theology using what I would call "the semantics of man" versus quoting scripture, and allowing each person to be guided by the Holy Spirit as to its interpretation/application in their everyday life. (I am not saying that it is mere semantics that is separating reformed & arminian & whatever else there may be. Merely that I trust what God says for Himself. But whenever man starts paraphrasing it, something is lost - or added.) According to the FAQ (and I haven't yet gotten a chance to look at the samples to confirm this), TOG is simply listing scripture references, and allowing the user to interact directly with the Bible. *That* I can meditate on, study, and benefit from. Thanks, guys! Rhonda

That is very encouraging. Thanks! Rhonda

Thanks! My other reply got deleted by my 13yo. =) I had noticed on the website that the FAQ seemed to indicate that the "commentary" is (usually) just scripture. (Rather than, a "commentary" on scripture.) Thank you for confirming that. We *do* already talk about God throughout our day, and even how what people believe about God influences their actions, and how "a man may plan his way, but the Lord directs his steps." So, I'm guessing that may be a similar thought, rather than an opposing one. I'll definitely re-check the samples online. Thanks for all your help! Rhonda

Sorry, it took me too long to post my other reply, so I missed yours! Would you mind reading that, and telling me what you think about the reformed pov influencing the lit analysis/history analysis? thanks! rhonda

Thanks for replying! I'm trying to figure out maybe a better way to ask.... I guess what I'm wondering is...do they "teach" or "prove" their theological beliefs while explaining history or literature? Is that the whole basis, or is it only a small part? For example, would they try to "prove" predestination in their lit analysis notes - or, would there maybe a question (which I could ignore or change at will) stating, "In light of what the Bible teaches about Predestination, write an essay explaining...." In the first example, which frankly I have a hard time envisioning, I would feel overwhelmed - like, can't we just stick to examining how the author presents his viewpoint. But, if it's just a question to answer about whether or not I agree with the viewpoint, and the reasons why, then I can see modifying that question. It's not that I'm unwilling to listen to someone else's pov. I just don't want to be forced to discuss our differences every day, or even every week. (There's just so much that is good and true and shared by all Christians, and I'd rather focus my attention on those.) Thanks! Rhonda

Second ds is blending SOTW-4 and Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World next year for 5th grade. We'll still be doing the WTM rec's. Then, in 6th, we'll just continue using WTM.

We cleaned out our garage recently, and so I pulled out the very old (1970's - my mom bought them one at a time from the grocery store) encyclopedias we had boxed up. It's been 2 years, and I still haven't made it to a library sale!! Anyway, I remembered that one of the problems we had with trying to do living books and student research with Kingfisher in 5th grade was when my ds wanted to know more about Stilicho, and couldn't find *anything* - not even online. Now, we had just started homeschooling, I was still working from home, and had a new baby ~ so I didn't even consider going to the library to look in an encyclopedia. Then, my mom dumped these old ones on me, and I just ignored them, basically. But, I just now looked up Stilicho - and there are 4 beautiful paragraphs. Just enough that *if* we had looked, my ds could have written a paragraph summary. It would have been perfect, and many tears of frustration would have been averted! Oooooh......I'm trying really hard not to feel guilt over "wasting" so many opportunities in the last 2 years! Figured at least I could share that here, and maybe save someone else that "Oh, *Now* is a grand time to be figuring this stuff out!" moment. ;) Have a great weekend! Rhonda

I'm not really asking what "reformed" theology is (I know that I'm not reformed ~ tho', I'd have a hard time labeling what exactly I am!). I'm more asking how does TOG weave that worldview into the curriculum. I'm just still uncertain how being "reformed" affects how literature and history are studied, if that makes sense. Where does it come out? Is it easily skipped, or is it pervasive? I figure this would probably be more of an issue in the rhetoric levels - since that is where it delves into philosophy. Is that a correct assumption? Any hints on what to expect - or what kind of disagreements you had with that POV and how you dealt with them - would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Rhonda

When I used the library for science, I didn't really "plan". But, we have a huge library. I just let my dc choose a book, read it, and *if* there was an experiment in it, and he wanted to do it, we did. If you did want to plan, perhaps it would be good to plan "topics". You could look in the Janice Van Cleave books (we have other books that are similar at our library as well), to see which easy experiments could go with each topic. Then, say, one of your topics is "erosion", and in your list, you would cover that in Week 6 - but the book you want isn't available. So, you move that and do a topic that *is* available. As long as you have a master list of topics and experiments that isn't "dated", then you can easily move "erosion" to Week 9 or 10. We can keep books for 3 weeks, and have an online reserve system. So, I can go in and pretty much know the week ahead of time what books will be available. (But, really, I'm not the type of mom who's going to look through every book on erosion to determine which exact one I want to use.) Sometimes I will request a whole bunch, then choose just two of the ones that are there to take home. I do understand your angst! We are doing all our literature from the library this year. Both boys are doing the 8th grade list, and I'll need a copy for me, and hopefully the Audio version - all from the library at the same time. So, I'm just going into it knowing ahead of time to build in extra "cushion" days; and trust that even if things don't go according to my plan, all will still be well. Best wishes! Rhonda ps - It also helps me to remember that even if I were following someone else's plan, I'd probably tweak that, too! The best laid plans of mice and men kind of thing...

I decided to use the Usborne for a spine this year with my 10yo, adding in his chemistry set when it fits. I decided not to let anyone know - figured that would be "So boring!" Very glad to see your post! :001_smile: Rhonda

I don't know what Ambleside said, but what works here is to study the same topic separately. (My boys are 3 years apart in school) For example, last year both the boys used SOTW-3 for "extra" reading. But, the older read it independently & took notes. The younger one read it with me, and then we created a "concept map" for his narration. The next day, we would discuss the information, and sometimes this did mean I had to specify which kid was to answer! But, then the older one wrote about a page report; the younger wrote a paragraph. It worked really well. I've never been able to successfully combine for science - except when I didn't require any written work. But, that is my own personal ineptness at science coming through! I'm sure if I had routines along the lines of WTM, that it would be possible. I would just know that, again, I wouldn't *really* be combining the actual lessons - simply studying the same content. This year we are doing literature together. I plan to listen to CD's, while we each read from our own copy. This will keep us all on the same book at the same time, and allow us to discuss as we go. It will be interesting to see how this pans out, since the writing assignments will basically be the same. I think now that my younger one is maturing, it will be easier. The hardest time for them (as brothers as well as classmates) was after my older son hit p*berty, and he suddenly wanted to be "grown up". My younger ds would really get on his nerves. Yet, my younger ds really missed having his brother for a "playmate".

Ummmm....I modeled my ds's "notebook" after mine from public school.... IOW, fold my notes in half, and stick them in the book where I finished reading. (OK - I hear all your notebook fanatics laughing!) Actually, I did have a "folder" for science where we would put our Lab Write Ups (once they were finalized - we wrote them in paragraphs as Dr. Wile explains them, and so we would use them as writing assignments as well) and Tests. And, the notes if we could find them. (We usually go through all the collected papers about every 6 weeks and put them where they're "supposed" to go. Did I say "we"? I meant "I" - and, no ds never looks at that folder - I'm just saving it in case the homeschool police show up some day - LOL!) We did the On Your Own questions orally, and I also discussed with/quizzed my ds using the Study Guide 2-3 times a week. At first, I would also pre-read and create "study notes" for him to fill out. Once he got used to Dr Wile's style, he was better able to separate the explanations from the things which needed to be memorized, and I didn't need to keep doing that for him. Not sure that helped =) Rhonda

I distinctly remember listening to SWB on her CD's (can't remember if it's the writing one or the Great Books one -which unfortunately wasn't available the last time I checked) - (I'm sorry, I'm just a spaz when it comes to interrupting my own tho'ts - esp this time of the month :lol:) - ANYWAY....she *doesn't* encourage papers or essays on a thesis (an opinion which can be supported by fact) until high school. I agree with you that logic stage is still very much a fact-finding stage. But, grammar stage facts are presented on a silver platter to the student. Ideally, logic stage facts are student-researched. (Whoops! Didn't happen much here - but nobody's perfect. :D) My overall impression has been that the logic stage isn't so much about opinions as it is about "Why's". Why is it effective for the author of Witch of Blackbird Pond to give us absolutely no idea what Kit's fiancee looks like, but every time we "see" Nat's blue eyes, blonde hair, and tanned muscles? Why is it helpful that Treasure Island is written in first person, and why does the narrator *have* to change in certain chapters - and how does that effect the book? Why did Longfellow choose the use Trochaic Pentameter in Song of Hiawatha? (Why choose specific words - is there a connotation that a specific word draws out, or is it an alliterative choice?) Why does one science book state emphatically that the fossil record is evidence of evolution, while another states just as emphatically that the fossil formations were clearly the result of a catastrophic occurrence? What are the holes, and what are the proofs, of each underlying philosophy? (BTW: to OP, I realize that Apologia does come down on the side of creationism pretty heavy-handedly at times, but it does also address the problems that catastrophists have with their current theories.) Perhaps the most difficult, or the most fuzzy area, is in history. Why do people do the things they do? I have to admit, I'm pretty clueless in trying to figure out *anybody* IRL, much less someone in a book. But, we still ask and learn - tho', admittedly, our answers are probably skewed by our own experiences. Last year my 7th grader could write a fairly decent "Why did this happen?" paper, but every time I pushed my 4th grader towards a "Why" paper, it always devolved into a "What happened" paper. It just takes time. But, we haven't gotten to the "I think it was right/wrong that this happened" paper. (We may discuss it, but we don't dwell on it or write about it.) Really, the only questions I remember (in WTM) which elicit dc's opinion in the Logic stage are in the literature section. But, the basic guideline for writing about literature in logic stage is "a no more than one page summary of the main events, followed by a sentence (or two) stating if dc liked or didn't like the book and why." So, that's not really much. The reason behind the "opinion" questions is to prime the pump of what is coming in high school (I think I remember this from the Great Books cd). WTM does state that in 7th or 8th grade you *can* begin writing papers which answer one of the questions in the discussion. But, I can tell you my ds is still firmly entrenched in the summary/quick analysis paper. (it may be different for the girls who were born with pencils in their hands) an aside: One resource I have loved using this past year was Well-Educated Mind, which divides the literature questions into Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric questions. The Grammar are just the basic plot, and finding the climax. But, the Logic really delve into the details of how the theme is developed - the setting, descriptions, metaphors, POV, etc. I answer all the questions for myself, and then I loosely use those questions during our discussions. And we have some really good discussions, but we are really just building a foundation for high school - when "literature analysis" will begin. You know, I can relate to your dh - I never remember doing real "analysis" until AP English. As a matter of fact, I never wrote a 5-paragraph essay - or had any inkling such a thing existed - until then. And even in college, papers weren't about "I think this author is right/wrong", but remained "This is how the author presents his viewpoint." At any rate, I'm in no hurry to push my ds into rhetoric - I plan to use a full four years at home for high school. I can also understand wanting to "analyze literature in light of the Bible"- but if you are a Christian, shouldn't that happen naturally? Too often I think we fall for an idea that sounds good, but is really a concept that doesn't require us spending any money. Thanks for the "chat"! Rhonda

But, I will try to say this well. *Every* curriculum "integrates logic" - it may be well-thought out, or it may not. But, if you truly embrace the core of what SWB spoke of in an earlier post, that classical education is basically.... (wish I could find the quote!).... not needing a teacher, but going out and finding out for yourself, then you will find logic and ethics and religion being discussed in your homeschool ALL the time - in every subject. IOW, it's not what you use, but the fact that you are all learning and growing and discussing together. And, it's you sharing your adult viewpoint on things with your kids - we've discussed *so many* things we would have *never* talked about it we weren't homeschooling. And, once you *do* study some logic with your dc, then your conversions will naturally include that knowledge *all* the time. And, you'll think, "Oh, too cool! I'm such a good mom!" (which, of course, you *are*!) As far as science: I am currently using Apologia after using Prentice Hall Science Explorer for a year. (Actually, next year, I am integrating the two *if* we have time - trying to balance the logic of learning from more than one source with the logic of - hey, somebody has to cook and clean around here!) BUT - getting back on track, I promise! - I went with Sci Exp first because someone whom I still greatly respect posted repeatedly about how it contains "Critical Thinking" exercises. And, it does have questions labeled specifically "Critical Thinking" that did require more than just copying the answer out of the book. But, we found several times that the text misled us, and so we questioned their "logic". So, anyway, I was worried about Apologia - will we get "Critical Thinking"???? And after using it last year, I think, yes, it does have plenty of "you're gonna have to reason this out, because the answer isn't given to you in the text" kind of questions. Sorry this is ending rather abruptly - 3yo dd just woke up from her nap! (perfectly logical to be napping at 8:53pm, no?) Rhonda

This isn't a BTDT answer, but WTM speaks to your American Government question on p.502 (the 2nd edition); and it shows how to put your Great Books program on a traditional transcript on pp. 654-5. (in a nutshell, 9th and 10th grades are "World Lit" and World Hist" 1 and 2, 11th is "Victorian Lit" and "American History", 12th is "Modern Lit" and "American Government".) hth, Rhonda

My 10yo is going into 5th, so I'll try to answer as far as what we did last year. (But, so much depends on *how* you're doing school, and how many subjects. Please don't think I believe this is the way is *has* to be!) As far as written work, I had him copy his spelling words every day, copy his Latin every day, write in Grammar (but the amount varies - I shoot for 3/4 of a page), he writes paragraph narrations in history 2-3 times a week, and in science after an experiment (or whenever the mood just hits me - LOL!). But, I do help him come up with topic sentences and supporting ideas. I'll write his topic sentence in the middle of the page, draw a circle around it, and then put the supporting points around it. (I don't just tell him what they are, but try to help him brainstorm them on his own. ETA: Ok, sometimes I *do* say, "Just trust me. Write this!" ;)) At this point, I would rather see a well-constructed paragraph about *one* aspect of the lesson than a mumble-jumbled page-long list of facts. Then, he takes our "rough draft" and uses it to create his narration. (Sometimes I have to give him some ideas of how to start - I rattle them off as fast as I can, so that hopefully whatever he comes up with is at least partially his!) I think reading along with his textbook is great. But, have you considered changing his free-reading time to a Read-Aloud time? My 10yo also chooses easy-peasy books that he was reading in 2nd grade. But, reading aloud is what turned my 13yo into a sometimes-reader (Harry Potter, Pendragon, anything Dungeons & Dragonish - not the classics by any means). I started with this list from Amazon called "Great Books for Boys Aged 8-12": http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/37F6V8XRI70V4/ref=sr_5_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1068837490&sr=5-1 There's a lot of just really fun books on the list. I have also added in historical fiction (ala Sonlight) as read-alouds during school. Since we were reading out loud for about an hour, and reading "literature" last year, I didn't have a "free-reading" time. Now, I can't tell you this has turned my 10yo into a reader yet (like his older brother), but it *is* showing him that books are doorways to other worlds; and, I feel better knowing that he is at least getting exposed to something other than "Flat Stanley". With the narrations, what I'm noticing is that more and more often, he doesn't *want* my help. So, I'm hoping that the same thing will happen with reading, too. Personally, and completely unprofessionally, I think there is a drive to be more independent which comes after p*berty hits. Very similar to how a toddler goes through the "Me do it!" stage. Once that initial hormone surge was over, my older ds really seemed to mature over-night - and that's when he finally started taking an interest in doing well with school, even if he didn't find it "fun". :001_smile: Rhonda

I could probably have written exactly the same thing. Well, maybe I would have put "dislikes" instead of "hates every subject" - but that sort of gets to the gist of my thoughts: What you say here I can take two completely ways: One, I can see myself writing this after a particularly "bad" day at school. One of those days when eyes get rolled, every assignment is met with a sigh and takes 2 or 3 times as long as it should, and perhaps a comment comparing our homeschool to someone else's schooling experience leaves me feeling completely inadequate. But, in my most honest moments, I have to admit that those are the days that *I* allow to deteriorate into "one of those kind of days". I've noticed that when the day is going downhill, it's because I'd rather ignore the behavior hoping it will go away, and so it builds. But when I'm on top of my game, and sprinkle happiness and optimism into our day, and nip the negativity in the bud, and I don't allow myself to get all bent out of shape just because things aren't going according to plan - well, it's not that *none* of those behaviors happen - but I am not so affected by them. I don't take them personally. I deal with them in the moment, and don't let them infect the rest of the day. It's very easy for me to say, "Well, this kid just watches entirely too much TV," (and, in my case, blame my dh for being the tv-and-video game "addict" he is). It's much more difficult for me to accept what I cannot change, and then change *me*. I'm not saying that you *shouldn't* get rid of your TV - especially if your dh thinks that's a good idea. I'm just giving you my honest assessment of myself. OTOH, maybe there is a huge amount of true "hate" and true "fighting" going on in your house. One thing that has come to my attention IRL lately is that I live a very sheltered life! I really wouldn't know what to say that would be helpful in such a situation - only that I'll say a prayer that such is not yours, and trust that God will send you whatever help you need. :001_smile: Rhonda

I have a "Star Microfiber Mop" I got on an infomercial about 5 years ago. Actually, I have two - both still in perfect condition. I LOVE THEM!!!! If you google "Star Mop", several places to buy them will come up - some considerably cheaper than others. =) Rhonda