AP Computer Science Principles

[nansk]

Please tell me about this new College Board exam. I only found out about it today from a NYT article (see excerpt below.)

 

Are any of your dc considering the AP CS Principles exam?

 

I found the curriculum and lesson plans on Code.org. Have any of you used the resources on code.org for high school?

 

 

... professors complained that “Java was not the right way†to attract a diverse group of students, said Trevor Packer, head of the A.P. program, so a new course was developed.

The course, Computer Science Principles, is modeled on college versions for nonmajors. It lets teachers pick any coding language and has a gentler vibe. There is an exam, but students also submit projects “more similar to a studio art portfolio,†Mr. Packer said. The course covers working with data and understanding the internet and cyber security, and it teaches “transferable skills,†he said, like formulating precise questions. That’s a departure from what the College Board found in many high schools: “They were learning how to keyboard, how to use Microsoft applications.†The goal is that the new course will be offered in every high school in the country.

[mumto2]

We did the old exam so no advice in terms of what I am planning to do and last year was my last AP year.

 

What I would do is look at the College board website very closely. https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-computer-science-principles/course?course=ap-computer-science-principles. As you look at it study the course syllabus examples very closely. There could be one that you would feel comfortable adopting and using to make your course official. Since it's the first year being part of the mentoring group for teachers might be particularly helpful. I never taught an official course we just did the exams but many here do have their syllabus approved. My understanding is the sample syllabus will automatically receive approval.

 

From my very brief look there appears to be review material being prepared by College Board. That's what I would concentrate on and compare to anything else you find. A review book at the end of the year might be helpful too.

[Matryoshka]

Hm, so this is an AP to get you out of a possible GenEd class?  I guess that's also what Human Geography does...?

[RegGuheert]

FWIW, here's another thread on Computer Science Priniciples from earlier this year.

 

One question I have with this exam that I would have with ANY new AP exam is whether the schools my DC are looking at have a way to convert it to credit.

 

Also, and I may be wrong on this point, but I get the indication that the College Board is somehow enforcing the idea of a "school" with this exam.  When we were signing up for AP CS A last year, our administrator looked at the AP CS Principles exam instead and was asking for some sort of code related to the student's project submissions, or some such.  I got the impression that there was a requirement for a third-party to be involved in the course itself in order for the student to qualify to take the exam.  Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find my posts on the topic...

[nansk]

Thank you mumto2 and RegGuheert for the links and info. So this appears to be an easier step before the AP Comp Sci A exam.

 

I would still like to hear from anyone who has used the lesson plans on code.org.

[RegGuheert]

Also, and I may be wrong on this point, but I get the indication that the College Board is somehow enforcing the idea of a "school" with this exam.  When we were signing up for AP CS A last year, our administrator looked at the AP CS Principles exam instead and was asking for some sort of code related to the student's project submissions, or some such.  I got the impression that there was a requirement for a third-party to be involved in the course itself in order for the student to qualify to take the exam.  Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find my posts on the topic...

 

Here is a bit more on the portfolio requirement in AP CS P.

 

And a video:

 

 

Is it just me, or is the College Board getting a bit too involved in structuring how these courses are to be run?  It seems to take away much of the flexibility that the instructors used to have.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

There are samples of student project "artifacts" available on the course page. I was underwhelmed.

 

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-computer-science-principles/exam?course=ap-computer-science-principles

 

I didn't think the sample artifacts represented college level thinking or output.

 

The whole course strikes me as odd.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Arcadia]

There are samples of student project "artifacts" available on the course page. I was underwhelmed.

 

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-computer-science-principles/exam?course=ap-computer-science-principles

 

I didn't think the sample artifacts represented college level thinking or output.

 

The whole course strikes me as odd.

The main target audience is females and URMs.

 

"The Computer Science Principles (CSP) project emphasizes the importance of broadening participation in computing and is dedicated to supporting recruitment efforts that increase enrollment of female and underrepresented minority students. Understanding how to encourage female and underrepresented students into the field of Computer Science requires sustained efforts and commitment over time.

...

4. Initiate Direct Contact with Adults

What? Detailed information about the course, learning strategies, advantages/benefits of taking the course, importance to female and URM students." http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/computerscience/Resources_for_Recruiting_Female_Underrepresented_Minority_Students.pdf

 

New class leads to big gains in number of girls, minorities taking AP computer science exams https://edsource.org/2017/new-class-leads-to-big-gains-in-number-of-girls-minorities-taking-ap-computer-science-exams/585170

 

Tens Of Thousands More Women And Minorities Are Taking Computer Science http://www.npr.org/2017/07/31/539853090/tens-of-thousands-more-women-and-minorities-are-taking-computer-science

"According to figures just released, from 2016 to 2017 the number of underrepresented minorities who took an AP Computer Science exam nearly tripled, from 8,283 to 22,199. The number of girls shot up from 12,642 to 29,708.

 

While significant, this increase was not enough for those two groups to reach parity. Only 1 in 5 of those taking AP CS last year were underrepresented minorities and about 1 in 4 were women.

...

"The entire reason the new exam and course were created was to broaden participation in computer science," says Hadi Partovi, a tech entrepreneur and investor. That's also the mission of Code.org, the nonprofit Partovi started with his brother Ali"

 

 

AP computer science exam takers double; here's why https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/07/18/code-org-helps-ap-computer-science-increase-diversity/486482001/

"Female, black and Latino student participation in Advanced Placement computer science exams has more than doubled in the past year, helped by the introduction of an AP course designed to introduce principles, according to a new report."

Edited August 2, 2017 by Arcadia

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The main target audience is females and URMs.

 

"The Computer Science Principles (CSP) project emphasizes the importance of broadening participation in computing and is dedicated to supporting recruitment efforts that increase enrollment of female and underrepresented minority students. Understanding how to encourage female and underrepresented students into the field of Computer Science requires sustained efforts and commitment over time.

...

4. Initiate Direct Contact with Adults

What? Detailed information about the course, learning strategies, advantages/benefits of taking the course, importance to female and URM students." http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/computerscience/Resources_for_Recruiting_Female_Underrepresented_Minority_Students.pdf

 

New class leads to big gains in number of girls, minorities taking AP computer science exams https://edsource.org/2017/new-class-leads-to-big-gains-in-number-of-girls-minorities-taking-ap-computer-science-exams/585170

 

Tens Of Thousands More Women And Minorities Are Taking Computer Science http://www.npr.org/2017/07/31/539853090/tens-of-thousands-more-women-and-minorities-are-taking-computer-science

"According to figures just released, from 2016 to 2017 the number of underrepresented minorities who took an AP Computer Science exam nearly tripled, from 8,283 to 22,199. The number of girls shot up from 12,642 to 29,708.

 

While significant, this increase was not enough for those two groups to reach parity. Only 1 in 5 of those taking AP CS last year were underrepresented minorities and about 1 in 4 were women.

...

"The entire reason the new exam and course were created was to broaden participation in computer science," says Hadi Partovi, a tech entrepreneur and investor. That's also the mission of Code.org, the nonprofit Partovi started with his brother Ali"

 

 

AP computer science exam takers double; here's why https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/07/18/code-org-helps-ap-computer-science-increase-diversity/486482001/

"Female, black and Latino student participation in Advanced Placement computer science exams has more than doubled in the past year, helped by the introduction of an AP course designed to introduce principles, according to a new report."

I read some of the articles about increases in test participation. I think the one I read was in Wired.

 

I think that they are getting improved numbers by radically changing the definition.

 

It makes me think of teaching history by doing projects about times when history was really useful without actually studying history.

[nansk]

Thank you for the new links. Lots for me to read.

 

I thought the course looked like a good first step before learning to code; learning computational thinking before learning actual programming. It appears to be suitable for a 7-8th grader or at the start of 9th grade. Programming languages will come and go, but knowledge of flowcharts, logical processing, functions, and abstractions will be useful regardless of what you actually code in. Plus this seems to introduce privacy issues, encryption, big data - topics which even non-programmers need to know today.

Edited August 3, 2017 by nansk

[Arcadia]

I thought the course looked like a good first step before learning to code; learning computational thinking before learning actual programming.

...

Programming languages will come and go, but knowledge of flowcharts, logical processing, functions, and abstractions will be useful regardless of what you actually code in.

Computational thinking for educators https://computationalthinkingcourse.withgoogle.com/course?use_last_location=true

"A free online course helping educators integrate computational thinking into their curriculum

Who: Humanities, Math, Science, and Computing educators

When: All of the course materials are available as a self-study program."

 

Google for Education: Exploring Computational Thinking https://edu.google.com/resources/programs/exploring-computational-thinking/

"Exploring Computational Thinking (ECT) is a curated collection of lesson plans, videos, and other resources on computational thinking (CT). This site was created to provide a better understanding of CT for educators and administrators, and to support those who want to integrate CT into their own classroom content, teaching practice, and learning."

[nansk]

Computational thinking for educators

Google for Education: Exploring Computational Thinking 

THANK YOU, Arcadia! Your links are immensely helpful. :)

[mirabillis]

Edhesive offers AP Comp Sci Principles... No experience, but did very much enjoy their AP Comp Sci A course. ;-)

 

If you've already taken AP Comp Sci A, then the Principles course would be a waste, yes?

[nansk]

Edhesive offers AP Comp Sci Principles... 

 

Thank you. I am looking at other providers also, and the course from Berkeley also looks good.

 

 

If you've already taken AP Comp Sci A, then the Principles course would be a waste, yes?

 

From the College Confidential thread that RegGuheert linked, it appears that yes, for college credit, if you have taken AP CSA, then the AP CSP course will be pointless. 

In fact, it appears that most selective colleges will not give credit for this course.

However, since it covers a broader range of topics that your student may be interested in, perhaps she/he can follow the course from Berkeley for self-study but not take the exam.

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by nansk

[Alte Veste Academy]

Edhesive offers AP Comp Sci Principles... No experience, but did very much enjoy their AP Comp Sci A course. ;-)

Edhesive is not offering CSP for homeschoolers. This is the response I got when I asked about it.

 

Thanks for your message. At this time, we do not offer AP Computer Science Principles for homeschools. The AP Computer Science Principles is unfortunately best suited for a classroom given the discussions, group activities, and group projects. Additionally, a school's participation is required in order to turn in the performance tasks (the AP administrator or teacher at a school submits student work through their school account) and also administer the multiple choice portion of the AP exam. Edhesive cannot submit student work or administer the test.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Edhesive is not offering CSP for homeschoolers. This is the response I got when I asked about it.

 

 

Interesting.  It partly makes sense, but partly doesn't.

 

Is the submission process different for CS Principles than it is for Studio Art?

 

The part about the multiple choice exam doesn't makes sense, since homeschool students have to find a location for the AP Computer Science A exam too, but Edhesive offers that one.

 

I can see difficulty in doing group projects.  On the other hand, the types of technology that are explored in the class are also appropriate for facilitating long-distance collaboration.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Interesting. It partly makes sense, but partly doesn't.

 

Is the submission process different for CS Principles than it is for Studio Art?

 

The part about the multiple choice exam doesn't makes sense, since homeschool students have to find a location for the AP Computer Science A exam too, but Edhesive offers that one.

 

I can see difficulty in doing group projects. On the other hand, the types of technology that are explored in the class are also appropriate for facilitating long-distance collaboration.

Yeah, I honestly thought the response was disingenuous from a computer science standpoint. I mean CSP is supposed to be all about breaking down barriers and the awesome, overwhelming possibilities of programming. And the fact is that I can do all the submission stuff as a homeschooler, and places like CodeHS and code.org are offering it. So I kind of feel like they were just making excuses for why they aren't offering it, which is silly.

[Arcadia]

And the fact is that I can do all the submission stuff as a homeschooler, and places like CodeHS and code.org are offering it. So I kind of feel like they were just making excuses for why they aren't offering it, which is silly.

The Digital Portfolio requires a school.

 

" If you are not enrolled in an AP CSP class for the current academic year, you will be prompted to add a class by clicking the ‘Add Classes’ button.

 

You will be redirected to the ‘Manage My Classes’ page and see a complete list of Digital Portfolio classes being offered at your school. You should request enrollment in the appropriate Computer Science Principles clas

 

When you click ‘Enroll’, the screen will indicate that enrollment has been requested. You will not be able to access the Digital Portfolio content until your teacher has confirmed your enrollment.

 

If you are enrolling in CSP at a school other than your primary school, you should temporarily change your school in the Account Settings in order to enroll in the class."

Page 2 and 3 https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/computer-science-principles-digital-portfolio-student-guide.pdf

 

ETA:

Code.org is offering their curriculum/material free to use. They aren't offering a class or to be the overseeing teacher. Kind of like Khan Academy.

 

ETA:

My kids have already passed the AP Computer Science A exam. I'm just being a busybody.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Arcadia

[Arcadia]

Is the submission process different for CS Principles than it is for Studio Art?

AP Studio Art Digital Submission required the 6 digit school code too but seems to take the state's AP exam homeschool code.

https://apstudio.ets.org/apstudioart/sbmsn/stuSignup.do?action=loadAcctSignup&from=stuSignup&isNew=true

"Log in to the Digital Submission Web Application as soon your teacher — or AP coordinator, if you are home-schooled — provides access information. Check with your teacher or coordinator if you haven't received this information by early February." https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/takingtheexam/preparing-for-exams/about-digital-submission

[Alte Veste Academy]

The Digital Portfolio requires a school.

 

" If you are not enrolled in an AP CSP class for the current academic year, you will be prompted to add a class by clicking the ‘Add Classes’ button.

 

You will be redirected to the ‘Manage My Classes’ page and see a complete list of Digital Portfolio classes being offered at your school. You should request enrollment in the appropriate Computer Science Principles clas

 

When you click ‘Enroll’, the screen will indicate that enrollment has been requested. You will not be able to access the Digital Portfolio content until your teacher has confirmed your enrollment.

 

If you are enrolling in CSP at a school other than your primary school, you should temporarily change your school in the Account Settings in order to enroll in the class."

Page 2 and 3 https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/computer-science-principles-digital-portfolio-student-guide.pdf

 

ETA:

Code.org is offering their curriculum/material free to use. They aren't offering a class or to be the overseeing teacher. Kind of like Khan Academy.

 

ETA:

My kids have already passed the AP Computer Science A exam. I'm just being a busybody.

 

Interesting, because I have a link to Class and Roster Management and Digital Portfolio on my professional account page. We were going to do it last year but postponed it, and I got email after email about the digital portfolio submission deadlines. So apparently their computer system thought I had access to a digital portfolio for my kid. LOL

 

But I could very well be wrong. I'm reconsidering the way I'm going to have the kids do CS APs anyway. I personally love the idea of the CSP class, especially for my DD who I think would be very well served (as an artist/graphic design kind of person) by the particularly wide, generalist scope of the class. DS14 could easily just move into CSA, so I'm weighing my options at this point. I am definitely out of my league, so all I know is I won't be teaching any of this! 

[Alte Veste Academy]

AP Studio Art Digital Submission required the 6 digit school code too but seems to take the state's AP exam homeschool code.

https://apstudio.ets.org/apstudioart/sbmsn/stuSignup.do?action=loadAcctSignup&from=stuSignup&isNew=true

"Log in to the Digital Submission Web Application as soon your teacher — or AP coordinator, if you are home-schooled — provides access information. Check with your teacher or coordinator if you haven't received this information by early February." https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/takingtheexam/preparing-for-exams/about-digital-submission

 

The six digit code requirement is the same for CSP. I emailed them to ask about it. Because what use is it to let a homeschooler submit a syllabus and get approved only to disallow them from submitting necessary work to take the test?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Thank you. I am looking at other providers also, and the course from Berkeley also looks good.

 

I evaluated the course from Berkeley last year as it was offered on EdX platform. (my after-homeschooling life is educating teachers about computational thinking)

I found it absolutely fantastic!  I did not finish the course myself because you do need to build your portfolio but I was getting nothing myself from those exercises (I have 30+ years of programming and computer science experience) but you still need to do the exercises so at one point I gave up. I did approximately 2/3 of the first semester, enough to see how the course is organised .

 

Unfortunately on EdX, it has been archived and isn't accessible anymore. 

Cleo

[Arcadia]

The six digit code requirement is the same for CSP. I emailed them to ask about it. Because what use is it to let a homeschooler submit a syllabus and get approved only to disallow them from submitting necessary work to take the test?

My kids are middle schoolers. I can't submit a syllabus when my oldest isn't in 9th grade yet.

 

The CSP's portfolio overseeing might be more work than earning the $150 homeschool fee for Edhesive though. The CSA course was totally hands off for the teacher/parent.

 

ETA:

I meant I can't get an AP account for myself or my kids. My kids just use the state homeschool code for their AP exams. My oldest did the calculus exam as well but that has no portfolio so I really have no idea about subjects that requires portfolio submission.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Arcadia

[rlestina]

Edhesive is not offering CSP for homeschoolers. This is the response I got when I asked about it.

 

Additionally, a school's participation is required in order to turn in the performance tasks (the AP administrator or teacher at a school submits student work through their school account) and also administer the multiple choice portion of the AP exam.

 

 

What Edhesive says is not accurate - either they are confused, or the rules changed after they posted that.  

 

This past school year two of my kids took AP Computer Science Principles.  I had previously registered a syllabus thru the usual College Board process, and was approved to teach AP CSP in my homeschool.  (I have a professional computer science background.)

 

I was able to have my kids to do the Performance tasks at home, and I was able to submit them myself thru the College Board portal, with no involvement from a school.

 

The only school involvement was the usual having them take the actual exam at a local high school, which we had no problem doing.

 

My 2 kids got a 4 and a 5 respectively.  

 

I'm not sure why this AP class is getting so much negativity from parts of the homeschool community - it's too bad, because it's actually a great fit for homeschooling.  I enjoyed teaching it, and my kids enjoyed learning.  They did not have any issues doing it without school involvement except for the administration of the AP exam at the end - and of course you have that will all APs.

[rlestina]

The Digital Portfolio requires a school.

 

" If you are not enrolled in an AP CSP class for the current academic year, you will be prompted to add a class by clicking the ‘Add Classes’ button.

 

....

 

Yes, the digital portfolio requires a school... but our homeschool is considered a school by their software.  No external school is required, assuming you get your homeschool class college board approved.

 

We did this course in our homeschool last year.  I completely agree that it is confusing and misleading - it took me several hours of poking around on their web site and two phone calls to College Board - but I can definitely state that you do NOT need an external school to do this class.

 

You as the homeschool teacher can (and must!) submit the Performance tasks for your students.  I did it, and it worked.  :)

[Arcadia]

Yes, the digital portfolio requires a school... but our homeschool is considered a school by their software. No external school is required, assuming you get your homeschool class college board approved.

....

You as the homeschool teacher can (and must!) submit the Performance tasks for your students. I did it, and it worked. :)

My kids are under 13, they are going to be in 7th and 8th grade. My oldest did the AP calculus BC and AP computer science A exams which don't require portfolio submission as a 7th grader. So homeschoolers who are going to be in 9th grade or above this August/September won't have a problem as the parents would be able to submit the performance tasks for their children.

 

I may be misinterpreting the below quoted but I thought I can't get a professional account until my oldest is in 9th grade unless I am getting an AP world language course approved.

 

"In summary, the AP Course Audit will only renew or authorize courses that are offered exclusively in grades 9–12, with the exception of AP world language programs." http://www.collegeboard.com/html/apcourseaudit/faq.html

[RegGuheert]

What Edhesive says is not accurate - either they are confused, or the rules changed after they posted that.  

 

I'm not sure why this AP class is getting so much negativity from parts of the homeschool community - it's too bad, because it's actually a great fit for homeschooling.

Do you know if your children will be able to get college credit for this course at the schools they plan to attend?  If they cannot, then I will contend that it may have had a cost in both time and money that could have been better used for work that would have gone toward college credit.

 

Yes, the digital portfolio requires a school... but our homeschool is considered a school by their software.  No external school is required, assuming you get your homeschool class college board approved.

Thanks for the explanation.  Still, I will point out that requiring the course syllabus to be audited and approved is not something that is required for the vast majority of AP exams.  Personally, I think that the College Board's decision to make access to AP exams more difficult should not be applauded.

[Arcadia]

Do you know if your children will be able to get college credit for this course at the schools they plan to attend? If they cannot, then I will contend that it may have had a cost in both time and money that could have been better used for work that would have gone toward college credit.

I don't have a dog in this fight. It is just a slow Saturday morning for me.

 

This course is new and some colleges are still working out their stance on college credits. For kids in junior/senior year, I agree there is a time cost to pay when deciding. For kids in 9th/10th grade who are not sure if they like programming, AP CSP still has the advantage of helping the weighted GPA while exploring computer science to see if they like it.

 

My nearest state university SJSU isn't granting college credit for AP CSP but Stanford (local to us) does for their CS course but not their ENGR courses and the undergrad would place into CS106A instead of CS106B. My kids are aiming primarily for engineering so that sways our choices. We just have to decide for our individual kids regarding the time cost factor.

 

For SJSU (San Jose State U) trailing periods added to space info out

"Exam........................................Units..... Course..... GE Credit and Comments

Computer Science A.................. 3.......... CS 046A..... No GE

Computer Science Principles..... 0.......... No Credit..... No GE" http://info.sjsu.edu/static/policies/ap.html

 

For Stanford

"SUBJECT..................................SCORE.......PLACEMENT......... QUARTER UNITS.....DUPLICATING COURSES

Computer Science A..................4,5...........CS 106B or CS 106X..............5..................CS 105, 106A, ENGR 70A

Computer Science Principles...... 4,5...........CS106A............................... 5..................CS 101, 105" https://registrar.stanford.edu/students/transfer-credit-and-advanced-placement/advanced-placement/ap-credit-chart

[Matryoshka]

 

One question I have with this exam that I would have with ANY new AP exam is whether the schools my DC are looking at have a way to convert it to credit.

 

Considering that CS A is already for the intro class at most colleges, can't see how.  It's like a class for AP Precalculus.  It might be a good intro to CompSci principles, it might be good prep for college-level work, making it a great high-school level course, but itself it is not what would be considered a college-level work, so I'm not seeing how it's AP-worthy.  

 

FWIW, my dd, who took AP CS A and is now a CompSci major, thinks this exam is silly.  But she's a bit sensitive in thinking that there needs to be an 'easier' class so that girls think they can handle it - but then she's also one of the only females in most of her classes...  

 

In the dumbing down CompSci theme... did anyone else hear that Stanford (yes, that Stanford!)  just decided that Java was too hard for an intro to programming, so have switched to JavaScript (which is not even a true programming language).   I'm half-wondering if this is a ploy not to accept CS A - although dd's school has managed the same thing by declaring that Java is too easy and doesn't teach fundamentals, so they start with C.  

 

At any rate, I am having a really, really hard time imagining that the kind of kid accepted to Stanford can't hack Java because it's too hard..???!!!

[RegGuheert]

Considering that CS A is already for the intro class at most colleges, can't see how.  It's like a class for AP Precalculus.  It might be a good intro to CompSci principles, it might be good prep for college-level work, making it a great high-school level course, but itself it is not what would be considered a college-level work, so I'm not seeing how it's AP-worthy.

That's kinda my view on the topic.  But, truth be told, DS19 had to take a course equivalent to AP CSP at college last year.  This course was required for his CS degree.  But guess what:  The university does NOT accept AP CSP as credit toward this class, so taking AP CSP last year would not have been helpful.  As such, I cannot see paying the College Board or involving them in any other way to take a course which does not value in college.

 

I'm happy to report that the course in question, which was not even offered by the engineering department, has been eliminated from the CS degree requirements for future incoming classes.

 

FWIW, my dd, who took AP CS A and is now a CompSci major, thinks this exam is silly.  But she's a bit sensitive in thinking that there needs to be an 'easier' class so that girls think they can handle it - but then she's also one of the only females in most of her classes...

That was my take, also, when I read above that that was one of the objectives of this course.  If females are underrepresented in computer science, you would be hard-pressed to make me believe that it is because AP CS A is too hard for them.  There may be other real reasons that contribute to this fact, but I doubt a simplified test will address those issues.

 

By way of anecdote, DS15 took AP Computer Science in the seventh grade.  She was the youngest student and one of only three girls in the class of twelve students.  All three girls completed the course successfully while four of the boys were unable to complete the course and two more were not prepared to take the AP CS A exam. 

 

In the dumbing down CompSci theme... did anyone else hear that Stanford (yes, that Stanford!)  just decided that Java was too hard for an intro to programming, so have switched to JavaScript (which is not even a true programming language).   I'm half-wondering if this is a ploy not to accept CS A - although dd's school has managed the same thing by declaring that Java is too easy and doesn't teach fundamentals, so they start with C.

JavaScript "not a true programming language"?  DS27 and DS19 are both programmers for a leading software company and both deal with JavaScript daily.  It has quickly become the de facto standard for client-side computing.  In fact, they previously used Java and JavaScript for server- and client-side computing respectively, they are now moving to Clojure and ClojureScript for those same applications.  Clojure compiles into code which runs directly in the Java Virtual Machine while ClojureScript compiles directly into JavaScript.

 

My point is that whatever your views may be of JavaScript, it is becoming more-and-more embedded in the industry for client-side computing.  JavaScript is an option for virtually every computing platform.  In fact, it is nearly required in order to create a mobile platform.

[Arcadia]

At any rate, I am having a really, really hard time imagining that the kind of kid accepted to Stanford can't hack Java because it's too hard..???!!!

OT but Stanford is revising CS107 to make it easier after complaints that it is a "weeder course".

 

"According to student reviews on Carta, a course planning site that displays course reviews, CS107 is one of the more difficult courses offered at Stanford. “It will maybe destroy your life, but you’ll learn a lot in the destruction,†reads one review.

Responding to students’ concerns, course instructor Cynthia Lee decided to revise the syllabus to make the material less daunting to students.

“I have heard on occasion students who believe that 107 or 110 or any of the courses in our department were intended to be set up as some sort of weeder, and it’s so important to me that we let students know that that was never anyone’s intention,†Lee said.

Some of the changes implemented this fall include giving two midterms, instead of one midterm, including more aid on assignments and allowing students to use a website for debugging." http://www.stanforddaily.com/2017/02/28/cs-department-updates-introductory-courses/

 

CS107 materials are available for free for anyone who wants to self study

https://see.stanford.edu/Course/CS107

[rlestina]

Thanks for the explanation.  Still, I will point out that requiring the course syllabus to be audited and approved is not something that is required for the vast majority of AP exams.  Personally, I think that the College Board's decision to make access to AP exams more difficult should not be applauded.

 

 

Ahh, I understand better now...  I always submit the syllabus and get College Board approved for any AP class my kids will do that is not fully outsourced (like to AP Homeschoolers).  I find the access to practice tests, etc, to be very valuable.  So I didn't even think about that as being an added burden, but I suppose if you often have your kids just study and then take the AP test, it would be an extra hoop to jump thru.

[RegGuheert]

OT but Stanford is revising CS107 to make it easier after complaints that it is a "weeder course".

So the question becomes whether making CS107 easier will actually increase the percent of students who complete their CS degree plan or whether it will merely delay the inevitable.  Some researches believe the latter is the likely outcome.

 

After DS27 showed us this article (in response to us discussing the problem of so many BOYS being unable to complete the AP CS A course), we asked him if he noticed a large number of his fellow students dropping out of the introductory programming class at college.  His response?  "Absolutely!  They were dropping like flies!  I think less than half the class made it to the end."

 

[Matryoshka]

 

JavaScript "not a true programming language"?  DS27 and DS19 are both programmers for a leading software company and both deal with JavaScript daily.  It has quickly become the de facto standard for client-side computing.  In fact, they previously used Java and JavaScript for server- and client-side computing respectively, they are now moving to Clojure and ClojureScript for those same applications.  Clojure compiles into code which runs directly in the Java Virtual Machine while ClojureScript compiles directly into JavaScript.

 

My point is that whatever your views may be of JavaScript, it is becoming more-and-more embedded in the industry for client-side computing.  JavaScript is an option for virtually every computing platform.  In fact, it is nearly required in order to create a mobile platform.

 

It's not that JavaScript isn't useful, it's just that it's a scripting language, which is interpreted by another program, rather than a compiled language, which is compiled directly into machine code.

 

Stanford actually said in their explanation about it being easier that you had to write so many less lines of code in JavaScript to do the same thing.  Which again, is the opposite line of thinking of dd's school, which is choosing the even more bare-bones C, which forces the programmer to handle memory allocation manually rather than having the language manage it, as Java does.  They think it's important that kids learn what's happening at the lower levels to prevent sloppy programming leading to bloated, memory-eating programs.  JavaScript is even one level more removed than Java.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What Edhesive says is not accurate - either they are confused, or the rules changed after they posted that.  

 

This past school year two of my kids took AP Computer Science Principles.  I had previously registered a syllabus thru the usual College Board process, and was approved to teach AP CSP in my homeschool.  (I have a professional computer science background.)

 

I was able to have my kids to do the Performance tasks at home, and I was able to submit them myself thru the College Board portal, with no involvement from a school.

 

The only school involvement was the usual having them take the actual exam at a local high school, which we had no problem doing.

 

My 2 kids got a 4 and a 5 respectively.  

 

I'm not sure why this AP class is getting so much negativity from parts of the homeschool community - it's too bad, because it's actually a great fit for homeschooling.  I enjoyed teaching it, and my kids enjoyed learning.  They did not have any issues doing it without school involvement except for the administration of the AP exam at the end - and of course you have that will all APs.

 

I'm one of the negative voices.  I'm skeptical when I see the numbers of students taking this course combined with the numbers for the AP CS course, because they feel like very different courses to me.  Maybe I don't understand the purpose of the course or where the course it replaces would fit into the degree or graduation requirements of a typical college student.

 

I'd welcome more information, because so far I've only seen things like the CB course description and the sample task assignment responses.

 

One of my kids did AP Computer Science with Edhesive (then named Amplify) and scored a 4.  He is a Computer Science major at a Tech university.  One of his comments is that when he took the Intro to Programming course this year, it was very fast paced and assumed a lot of previous familiarity.  His school accepts the AP CS exam score as a Computer Science Elective.  They accept the AP CS Principles course as "Computer Science, a Liberal Arts Approach," which would fill a general graduation requirement, but not a Computer Science degree requirement.

 

Who would you recommend take the Principles course?  What did your kids get out of doing the course that they didn't already have familiarity with?

 

Did you think that the course required college level thinking or work?  

 

Do you think that students taking the Principles course would go on to take more Computer Science courses including programming, or do you think they will go off in a different direction?

[Matryoshka]

So the question becomes whether making CS107 easier will actually increase the percent of students who complete their CS degree plan or whether it will merely delay the inevitable.  Some researches believe the latter is the likely outcome.

 

I'm not clear what's wrong with a weeder course??  Isn't the whole point to figure out who's going to be able to stay the course in a difficult major?  Why make this obvious only after you've taken another couple semesters and have to switch majors late and spend another year or two finishing?  I'd rather they figure this out right away.  It's not like these tough majors get easier as they go along...

 

I'm finding it a bit amusing that Stanford kids, of all people, need that much hand-holding.  I guess they're the types that have never not been able to get an A in every subject, and a class they struggle with is too much of a blow to their egos?  At any rate, if Stanford's intro class is somehow tons harder than other colleges' intro class, it's not the fault of the programming language they're choosing.  And if it's just a weeder class, like virtually every other intro CompSci class at universities around the country, then boo-hoo.

 

I'm not sure what to do about more women in CompSci.  The whole programmer culture can be a bit, um, chauvinistic.  Dd doesn't seem to care, but she sure has noticed it.  These guys that sit in their basement all through high school coding and think they are all that, but can't work on a team, and the only women they've ever interacted with are their moms and video game avatars.  It's not all the guys, by any means, but they tend to be the loudest and most obnoxious.  A girl has to really like programming and have a thick skin and enough self-confidence to be able to withstand these arrogant superegos.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Matryoshka

[RegGuheert]

I'm not clear what's wrong with a weeder course??

IMO, the first semester of college is not a good time to find out that the student is in the wrong major.  It is both bad for the student and bad for the university.  I will grant that it is better to find out then than *even later*, but that doesn't make it a good time.  In the case of Computer Science, it would be great if the students had ALREADY successfully completed a programming course in high school before going off to college.

 

It would be best if students get appropriately matched with degrees which are well-suited to their personality and abilities.  Of course that is not 100% achievable, but it is still a good goal.

[Kassia]

 

 

I'm not sure what to do about more women in CompSci.  The whole programmer culture can be a bit, um, chauvinistic.  Dd doesn't seem to care, but she sure has noticed it.  These guys that sit in their basement all through high school coding and think they are all that, but can't work on a team, and the only women they've ever interacted with are their moms and video game avatars.  It's not all the guys, by any means, but they tend to be the loudest and most obnoxious.  A girl has to really like programming and have a thick skin and enough self-confidence to be able to withstand these arrogant superegos.

 

I am hoping my dd goes into computer science because of her skills and personality.  I have one son who graduated with a CS degree, another who graduated with a Computer Science and Engineering Degree, and another with an Electrical and Computer Engineering Degree.  From what I've seen and heard, the guys you are describing here are definitely in the minority.  My sons are all very respectful of females (one son actually helped a female friend a lot to get her through her classes) and never told me of any problems they witnessed with guys treating the women differently in any way.  I have met many of their friends in the same major and they are also respectful, well-rounded individuals who work well in groups.  

[Matryoshka]

I am hoping my dd goes into computer science because of her skills and personality. I have one son who graduated with a CS degree, another who graduated with a Computer Science and Engineering Degree, and another with an Electrical and Computer Engineering Degree. From what I've seen and heard, the guys you are describing here are definitely in the minority. My sons are all very respectful of females (one son actually helped a female friend a lot to get her through her classes) and never told me of any problems they witnessed with guys treating the women differently in any way. I have met many of their friends in the same major and they are also respectful, well-rounded individuals who work well in groups.

I do think they're in the minority. They just tend to be very loud and obnoxious so they can stick out. Dd obviously has no problem working with guys, because they're *all* guys. Her partner on her internship project this summer was great.

[Alte Veste Academy]

This is mostly a general response to the thread, not to anyone in particular. But since I said I could see DD in particular benefitting from this course, I will explain why. I am a decidedly non-STEM mom. My head spins when people talk about the specifics of code and programming. I am lost in the weeds fast. I'm more into humanities and social sciences for sure.

 

Also, I am not invested in the argument about whether or not this is a worthy AP, enough for college credit, etc., mostly because I think this is the kind of class that should be required of all high school students in this day and age. I see the benefit of the content for its own purpose as stated by the College Board:

 

 

AP Computer Science Principles offers a multidisciplinary approach to teaching the underlying principles of computation. The course will introduce students to the creative aspects of programming, abstractions, algorithms, large data sets, the Internet, cybersecurity concerns, and computing impacts. AP Computer Science Principles will give students the opportunity to use technology to address real-world problems and build relevant solutions. Together, these aspects of the course make up a rigorous and rich curriculum that aims to broaden participation in computer science.

 

The AP CSP Course and Exam Description(.pdf/2.05 MB) provides an in-depth look at the course content, through-course assessment and end-of-year exam.

 

Computational Thinking Practices

• Connecting computing
• Creating computational artifacts
• Abstracting
• Analyzing problems and artifacts
• Communicating
• Collaborating

Big Ideas

• Creativity
• Abstraction
• Data and Information
• Algorithms
• Programming
• The Internet
• Global Impact

 

I LOVE the very different approach of this class, the overview of broader aspects of the computing world. Some of the projects might seem elementary, but they also seem fun, designed to inspire further interest. That is the biggest attraction for me.

 

DD is big into art and design. She is a lot like me. (I grew up in a different time, though, which is important to note.) I joke that she was born with a paintbrush in her hand.

 

DS14 is a STEM guy all the way, very interested in all those letters. LOL He could end up being an engineer, a physicist, a chemist, a programmer, a statistician... If he chooses a non-STEM oriented career, I will probably die of shock. He doesn't need the AP CSP class as much as most other students (like many of the kids of people posting on this thread, LOL) because he has had a general interest in the broader subject for so long that he already knows (at least) a little about everything the course addresses. He's STEM/programming/computer aware. It's on his radar. It's his thing. 

 

And DD feels like she is very different from him, in an teen identity kind of way, if you know what I mean. LOL So, sadly, she kind of silently flatly rejects programming/tech stuff as not for her. But she has ideas! So many ideas for so many things...that would all need a platform. We are only getting more techy as a society. She would be well served to learn about the wider scope of computer science. She does a lot of graphic design. She has a nice Wacom Pen Computer and knows the Adobe Creative Cloud programs like the back of her hand. She could be an amazing web designer, an intuitive app designer, an inspired programmer, etc. But, again, she thinks of computers and programming as her brother's thing (NOT a boys' thing, LOL, her brother's thing...but he's a boy and she's a girl, so...I'll leave that alone).

 

So, yeah, I think this class has a place. I haven't put a kid completely through it yet, so I don't know if it's truly college level, but that isn't why I'm interested in the class. I will say that I can imagine this being approved as an elective credit, some kind of "soft" credit, but maybe not a credit for the formal path to a CS degree. It might be too easy for that. I don't know. But then again, as someone with a BSW and MSW in Social Work, I took a first year course called Intro to Social Work that was very general, so general as to not be worth much later as a practicing Social Worker, BUT it did expose students to enough information about the field that they could figure out whether or not it was a path they wanted to pursue. I kind of see CSP like that. My intro class was easy too, and it worked for a social science credit for those outside the degree program, but was required for us. So I really don't know. It's not something I care to argue though. LOL

 

I mean, CSA is SO specific. If a kid doesn't like Java right off the bat, is there nothing else out there that might entice them into the field of computer science? LOL I get that Java is the first step on the path to a CS degree, but surely there are branching fields as you progress through the degree/career path. Uninterested (unaware?) students would benefit from a preview of the possibilities before ruling out the CS path as an option. I wonder if the people who hate on this class have such serious STEM students (like DS above, already aware of so many paths and possibilities) that they don't really think about the nudge a class like this could give a lot of kids toward the many disparate varieties of work with computers and tech.

 

Just a few weeks ago, DD spent a lot of time trying to recover an Adobe Animate file that had a JavaScript error. She had worked for hours and had so much emotion invested in this particular piece, and she was stymied by a JavaScript error. That experience (and her overwhelming anger, LOL) ever so slightly piqued her interest in programming. I was so excited, which I felt guilty for, because it revealed to her the programming underbelly of the art and graphic design programs she loves and only thought she knew all about. I mean, can you really, truly know a program if you don't know the code? ;) It planted a seed. But I think CSP could water that seed and bring it to harvest.

 

Anyway, I don't know much, but I do know for sure that if DD's initial exposure to computing is CSA it will (euphemism alert!) not go great. :lol:

 

What Edhesive says is not accurate - either they are confused, or the rules changed after they posted that.  

 

This past school year two of my kids took AP Computer Science Principles.  I had previously registered a syllabus thru the usual College Board process, and was approved to teach AP CSP in my homeschool.  (I have a professional computer science background.)

 

I was able to have my kids to do the Performance tasks at home, and I was able to submit them myself thru the College Board portal, with no involvement from a school.

 

The only school involvement was the usual having them take the actual exam at a local high school, which we had no problem doing.

 

My 2 kids got a 4 and a 5 respectively.  

 

I'm not sure why this AP class is getting so much negativity from parts of the homeschool community - it's too bad, because it's actually a great fit for homeschooling.  I enjoyed teaching it, and my kids enjoyed learning.  They did not have any issues doing it without school involvement except for the administration of the AP exam at the end - and of course you have that will all APs.

Yes, the digital portfolio requires a school... but our homeschool is considered a school by their software.  No external school is required, assuming you get your homeschool class college board approved.

 

We did this course in our homeschool last year.  I completely agree that it is confusing and misleading - it took me several hours of poking around on their web site and two phone calls to College Board - but I can definitely state that you do NOT need an external school to do this class.

 

You as the homeschool teacher can (and must!) submit the Performance tasks for your students.  I did it, and it worked.   :)

 

This is great to hear! Thanks. I have an email in with the College Board about the access code. Did you get it through phone calls? 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Alte Veste Academy

[RegGuheert]

Also, I am not invested in the argument about whether or not this is a worthy AP, enough for college credit, etc., mostly because I think this is the kind of class that should be required of all high school students in this day and age. I see the benefit of the content for its own purpose as stated by the College Board:

I agree completely if for no other reason than that it seems important to try to identify who can program and who cannot IN HIGH SCHOOL, not in college.  The question is whether this really is "Advanced Placement" or simply a course that colleges want high-schoolers to take to try to identify more qualified CS candidate and to eliminate others.  In other words, I think the course is being offered under false pretenses by the College Board, not that it is a bad course.

 

DD is big into art and design. She is a lot like me. (I grew up in a different time, though, which is important to note.) I joke that she was born with a paintbrush in her hand.

 

DS14 is a STEM guy all the way, very interested in all those letters. LOL He could end up being an engineer, a physicist, a chemist, a programmer, a statistician... If he chooses a non-STEM oriented career, I will probably die of shock. He doesn't need the AP CSP class as much as most other students (like many of the kids of people posting on this thread, LOL) because he has had a general interest in the broader subject for so long that he already knows (at least) a little about everything the course addresses. He's STEM/programming/computer aware. It's on his radar. It's his thing. 

 

And DD feels like she is very different from him, in an teen identity kind of way, if you know what I mean. LOL So, sadly, she kind of silently flatly rejects programming/tech stuff as not for her. But she has ideas! So many ideas for so many things...that would all need a platform. We are only getting more techy as a society. She would be well served to learn about the wider scope of computer science. She does a lot of graphic design. She has a nice Wacom Pen Computer and knows the Adobe Creative Cloud programs like the back of her hand. She could be an amazing web designer, an intuitive app designer, an inspired programmer, etc. But, again, she thinks of computers and programming as her brother's thing (NOT a boys' thing, LOL, her brother's thing...but he's a boy and she's a girl, so...I'll leave that alone).

My niece just earned her Bachelor's degree from James Madison University from the School of Media Arts & Design (SMAD).  She loved it!  She did very well with the programming aspects of the education when many of the other students really struggled.  Anyway, perhaps this type of degree program might appeal to your DD.

[daijobu]

 

 

My niece just earned her Bachelor's degree from James Madison University from the School of Media Arts & Design (SMAD).  She loved it!  She did very well with the programming aspects of the education when many of the other students really struggled.  Anyway, perhaps this type of degree program might appeal to your DD.

 

That's funny, I had never heard of James Madison Univ., until I began watching a Game Theory Great Courses video series starring Scott Stevens, a professor there.  

 

It's a great course, BTW.  (No pun intended.)

Edited August 6, 2017 by daijobu

[...................]

In our neck of the woods, AP CS Priciples is considered a total joke, and not even computer science.

 

In fact one of the colleges said taking this course would make a student applying for COmputer Science look WORSE

 

If your student is truly into computer science you are better off taking the original course, or any AP Math or Physics!!

[...................]

AP CS Principles is not a programming course.

 

Back to the Original AP CS- And yes Java sucks and its old and none/few of the leading tech companies are seeking Java programmers but Java is a real programming language and the course is good enough to get your feet wet and prove you have what it takes to be a programmer or in the least QA :)

Edited August 6, 2017 by Calming Tea

[RegGuheert]

In our neck of the woods, AP CS Priciples is considered a total joke, and not even computer science.

Well, that's certainly the elitist view!

Unfortunately, I don't think it recognizes that there is a real issue that needs to be addressed wrt the nexus of computers and non-programmers.  I am certainly not of the "everyone should learn to program" mindset that some people espouse, but I do think that programming enters into so many aspects of life in so many fields that it is important that everyone have some level of familiarity with what it is.

 

Is that the role that AP CSP is playing?  I don't know, but if it can make progress in breaking down the barrier that exists between programmers and others by eliminating some of the mystery of computer programming, then perhaps it is a good thing.  The alternative seems to be to teach programmers how to program and to teach everyone else nothing about programming.

Edited August 6, 2017 by RegGuheert

[MarkT]

This is mostly a general response to the thread, not to anyone in particular. But since I said I could see DD in particular benefitting from this course, I will explain why. I am a decidedly non-STEM mom. My head spins when people talk about the specifics of code and programming. I am lost in the weeds fast. I'm more into humanities and social sciences for sure.

 

Also, I am not invested in the argument about whether or not this is a worthy AP, enough for college credit, etc., mostly because I think this is the kind of class that should be required of all high school students in this day and age. I see the benefit of the content for its own purpose as stated by the College Board:

 

 

 

I LOVE the very different approach of this class, the overview of broader aspects of the computing world. Some of the projects might seem elementary, but they also seem fun, designed to inspire further interest. That is the biggest attraction for me.

 

 

sure in your case it looks like a good option for learning but I wouldn't waste time prepping for and taking the AP exam - see other posts

 

this program has a similar goal

https://www.tealsk12.org/

[...................]

Well, that's certainly the elitist view!

Unfortunately, I don't think it recognizes that there is a real issue that needs to be addressed wrt the nexus of computers and non-programmers.  I am certainly not of the "everyone should learn to program" mindset that some people espouse, but I do think that programming enters into so many aspects of life in so many fields that it is important that everyone have some level of familiarity with what it is.

 

Is that the role that AP CSP is playing?  I don't know, but if it can make progress in breaking down the barrier that exists between programmers and others by eliminating some of the mystery of computer programming, then perhaps it is a good thing.  The alternative seems to be to teach programmers how to program and to teach everyone else nothing about programming.

Then don't call it "AP" and don't call it "Computer Science"

[...................]

Well, that's certainly the elitist view!

Unfortunately, I don't think it recognizes that there is a real issue that needs to be addressed wrt the nexus of computers and non-programmers.  I am certainly not of the "everyone should learn to program" mindset that some people espouse, but I do think that programming enters into so many aspects of life in so many fields that it is important that everyone have some level of familiarity with what it is.

 

Is that the role that AP CSP is playing?  I don't know, but if it can make progress in breaking down the barrier that exists between programmers and others by eliminating some of the mystery of computer programming, then perhaps it is a good thing.  The alternative seems to be to teach programmers how to program and to teach everyone else nothing about programming.

 

And there are plenty of alternatives to teach programming in an easier way.  That's exactly why Hour of Code was invented.  ANY child or teenager can get started with Hour of Code and find :

A.  SOmething for the very beginner, at any age

B.  Something for the very beginner plus one stage

C.  Something for the very beginner plus two stage

D.  SOmething for every interest (LEGO< Barbie, Design, more Adult-like etc. etc.)

 

It is absolutely ridiculous to call this course AP COMPUTER SCIENCE to make all the Politically Correct academia boost their numbers!

 

Many many schools and institutions are using Hour of Code and other beginner programs to teach beginning programming and open the door and the minds of those who wish to get into Computer SCIENCE.

 

I think they should call the course something like Computer Proficiency with Design Systems ...haha how's that for a mouthful

Edited August 6, 2017 by Calming Tea

[rlestina]

I'm one of the negative voices.  I'm skeptical when I see the numbers of students taking this course combined with the numbers for the AP CS course, because they feel like very different courses to me.  Maybe I don't understand the purpose of the course or where the course it replaces would fit into the degree or graduation requirements of a typical college student.

 

I'd welcome more information, because so far I've only seen things like the CB course description and the sample task assignment responses.

 

One of my kids did AP Computer Science with Edhesive (then named Amplify) and scored a 4.  He is a Computer Science major at a Tech university.  One of his comments is that when he took the Intro to Programming course this year, it was very fast paced and assumed a lot of previous familiarity.  His school accepts the AP CS exam score as a Computer Science Elective.  They accept the AP CS Principles course as "Computer Science, a Liberal Arts Approach," which would fill a general graduation requirement, but not a Computer Science degree requirement.

 

Who would you recommend take the Principles course?  What did your kids get out of doing the course that they didn't already have familiarity with?

 

Did you think that the course required college level thinking or work?  

 

Do you think that students taking the Principles course would go on to take more Computer Science courses including programming, or do you think they will go off in a different direction?

 

I think AP CSP fills a useful niche as either an intro to computer science for non-majors, or a general survey course for future CS majors.  As a gen ed requirement for non majors, yes, I would say it is college level.  As an intro course for future CS majors, no, I would not expect it to get credit within the CS major - but I think it has value anyway to at least some future CS majors, just because it is a very broad survey class that covers not just programming but also networks, operating systems, information security, history of computer science, and much more.  I would see a future CS major taking it as an AP maybe in 9th or 10th grade, followed by AP CS A - Java, which is rigorous but specifically focused on programming.  As you know, there is more to computer science than just programming.  

 

So yes, I would agree with how your kid's college gave credit for it - but I don't see that as a flaw, or as invalidating the AP.  After all, many colleges do something similar with AP Biology or Chemistry - they give credit for it as a science elective, or as "Biology for non majors", but they won't give credit for it as a General Biology class for Biology majors.  Which is reasonable, IMO.

 

Things I liked about AP CSP:

- a broad survey of all aspects of computer science, not just programming

- includes two hands on projects: a programming project, that can be done in any programming language, and a research project, in addition to the usual AP exam - the programming project I thought was a great addition to the class

- a good class for kids who might be interested in CS (as a major or a minor) but who aren't already super passionate and knowledgable about it

 

Thinks I did not like:

-the research project felt very "high school" and did not add much value, in my opinion - tho my kids did enjoy doing it

-from an administrative standpoint, navigating the interface to submit things, and understanding what CB wanted to see, was quite a pain and not very easy to work with - maybe that will get better, since this was their first year doing it

 

 

As to my kids, and what they got out of it:

 

- My then-14year old 9th grader took it (got a 4) - she wants to be an accountant.  She enjoyed it, and I think it opened her eyes to how computers work, and how they can best be used as tools that add value to other tasks, what their strengths and weaknesses are.  She won't major in CS, but she liked it enough based on this intro that she may consider some future classes as electives, or maybe a minor in CS.

 

- My then-16 year old 10th grader also took it (got a 5).  She wants to be a web designer / graphic artist.  She was already pretty computer literate and had some programming experience (python) in addition to a bit of basic web design (html/css), but she found the class useful in filling in gaps in her knowledge - for example, she learned a lot about cryptography, and did her research project on new developments in natural language translation software.  For her programming project she programmed a basic art program, sort of like a super-simple version of Adobe Illustrator.  She plans to take AP Computer Science A - Java this coming year, and expects to study a lot more computer science.

 

- Next year, my going to be 17 year old 11th grader plans to take it.  He has no real idea what he wants to major in, and is taking this as an elective and to learn more about computer science.  Plus he saw how much the girls enjoyed it.  :)

 

Should a kid who is already an uber-geek super programmer take this?  No!  But for kids who aren't sure what they want, or aren't going to major in CS but want to better understand computers, or are going to major in CS but just want a good broad introduction, I think this is a great class. 

 

Lastly, I would add one side note that I think gets lost sometimes - we expect kids to learn biology, or chemistry, or civics, because those are important foundational things to know in our world, whether they will major in them or not.  But we aren't always systematically teaching them about computers at the high school or intro college level, even tho computers are now ubiquitous and have become foundational to many things.  I think this class has value as a general ed class similar to AP Comparative Government or AP Psychology or AP Biology - as a way for kids to learn things that are important to our world, regardless of their future path.  I think that to judge AP CSP by how well it serves only future CS majors is to miss a lot of the point.  I'm not saying it can't be useful for future CS majors - but we don't expect only future English majors to take AP English Lit, or only future Poli Sci majors to take AP Comparative Government...  so why would we judge AP CSP primarily on how it serves future Comp Sci majors?  (I'm not saying that is your argument, just something I hear a lot).

 

/end soapbox

 

Anyway, I hope that helps. Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful questions.

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Rlestia- super interesting post thanks! So neat to see what niche this fills and have specific examples!

 

If they would just re-name the course now :)