Jen500 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 As I'm looking more carefully through my copy of WTM, I'm surprised that the chapters on mathematics are so short and uninspiring compared to the rest of the book. In the rhetoric stage, there is a statement that some students may not take any math courses in grades 11 and 12. :eek: I understand that classical education is language oriented, but doesn't it encourage rigorous studies overall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Well, math is math. Susan did not set out to write a math curriculum. It's pretty obvious that you pick a program and use it. I'm not sure how much more elaboration there could be. Everyone has their favorite program, different kids do best with different styles, keep plugging away, make forward progress... and that's about it. As for the math in high school, the fact is that not all kids will take four years of math. If a child is on a college track, then he/she will probably try to get in four years of math; those on the math/science track will strive for finishing calculus. The student who doesn't plan on college will not necessarily take four years of math. Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately, except my question is about Classical Education and Charlotte Mason (which, in my opinion, is more a variation of classical than an entirely different beast). I'd like to know what program those children who are math/science fiends would be advised to embark on, with the same thoroughness that the classical model brings to the liberal arts. In other words, best methods to pursue the quadrivium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 I'd like to know what program those children who are math/science fiends would be advised to embark on, with the same thoroughness that the classical model brings to the liberal arts. In other words, best methods to pursue the quadrivium. This is what I'd like to find out too......now I'm off to Google quadrivium. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimber Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 For me, I have come to the conclusion that this is the 1960's math as described by Charon on the high school boards some time back. Students were expected to do proofs in Algebra, rather than Geometry alone. Search Charon and proofs and you should see some excellent discussions on the topic. The problem with using that type of curriculum today is that almost no one develops this type of math text anymore. Most of that type of understanding in the area of math has been stripped down to just doing the equations. As an engineer, I get math and equations, but I don't know beans about proofs. That is the missing part. I hope I can give that to my kids somehow. There are just so many hours in a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately, except my question is about Classical Education and Charlotte Mason (which, in my opinion, is more a variation of classical than an entirely different beast). I'd like to know what program those children who are math/science fiends would be advised to embark on, with the same thoroughness that the classical model brings to the liberal arts. In other words, best methods to pursue the quadrivium. IIRC, SWB has said (in a lecture I have on CD) that kids who want to get seriously into science--like her brother--may want to go ahead and start enrolling in CC lab science courses, since after a certain point it's quite difficult to do proper labwork at home, and science is such a collaborative effort in many ways. Really, if you want to take serious chem/physics courses, it would be a good idea to start taking classes with professors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 For me, I have come to the conclusion that this is the 1960's math as described by Charon on the high school boards some time back. Students were expected to do proofs in Algebra, rather than Geometry alone. Search Charon and proofs and you should see some excellent discussions on the topic. The problem with using that type of curriculum today is that almost no one develops this type of math text anymore. Most of that type of understanding in the area of math has been stripped down to just doing the equations. As an engineer, I get math and equations, but I don't know beans about proofs. That is the missing part. I hope I can give that to my kids somehow. There are just so many hours in a day. LOL, yes, only so many hours in a day! I have enjoyed Charon and Myrtle's posts. So I have NEM, Gelfand, some old Dolcianis, and Kiselev on my shelf. I'm not sure how to coordinate these, though-what parts to use when. Luckily I have a bit of time before the dc are ready....but back to that only so many hrs in the day thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Really, if you want to take serious chem/physics courses, it would be a good idea to start taking classes with professors. That is an excellent idea, as having a proper lab is unlikely at home. Is there anything in particular recommended to build up the foundation of one's children's science and math knowledge? And also for math, which doesn't (normally) require a lab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 I have forgotten what, if anything, SWB has said about prepping for CC science classes. What I would do is to do as much at home as I could, which is still quite a bit. I'd get as far as possible in math; this would depend on what you could do at home. (For me, my husband is very very good at calculus, and could teach it well before sending out kids off to CC calculus; but a lot of people might want to go through Algebra II, then start college algebra at a CC and go on from there. That's what I'd do if I didn't happen to be married to a physics geek.) I'd get into playing with math--use extra stuff for fun, etc. For science, you could do a lot in logic stage before going to CC lab courses. Just get really good materials, read a lot, do lots of experiments. This will cost--for example for chemistry I'd want to invest in elements and compounds to play with (a bit of sodium, some liquid nitrogen, etc.), as many as possible, and a real chemistry set. I'd read Hakim's Story of Science series in logic stage as well. I'd watch Nova and stuff for fun in the evenings. You could do some great stuff and get a lot of groundwork in; it's just that you can't get past a certain point on your own, because serious science is collaborative and needs a proper lab setup and a professor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) As I'm looking more carefully through my copy of WTM, I'm surprised that the chapters on mathematics are so short and uninspiring compared to the rest of the book. In the rhetoric stage, there is a statement that some students may not take any math courses in grades 11 and 12. :eek: I understand that classical education is language oriented, but doesn't it encourage rigorous studies overall? Actually, I think WTM is often interpreted as being "rigorous in all things academic", but the picture that SWB paints in her seminars of high school is one of specialization. Allowing the child to go deeply into whatever interests him, and letting other things fall off the plate. She even mentioned that it would be better to have a passion (spending 6 months overseas working in an orphanage, for example) rather than having four full years of history and literature (or any subject, really). I admit I am still struggling through how to make this advice about specializing a reality in our school! Edited May 11, 2009 by Rhondabee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 In the rhetoric stage, there is a statement that some students may not take any math courses in grades 11 and 12. :eek: I understand that classical education is language oriented, but doesn't it encourage rigorous studies overall? What courses do you guys in the US usually take in years 11 and 12, and do you really need them? I won't be requiring my kids to study calculus. (Can if they want to, of course.) What would they need it for? I think there are more useful ways to exercise the brain. The maths they do study will be done thoroughly, you can be sure. I guess it depends what we think rigorous means; and what sorts of pre-requisites you have for uni. I did some calculus at (a crappy public) school, and dropped maths at the end of year eleven. My dh is far more mathsy than I, and did maths right through at his private school. He was in "veggie" maths though, and didn't touch calculus. I guess what it comes down to is "is it important to me that my kids study calculus." It's not important to me. Geometry, yes, algebra, yes, calculus, no! Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 What courses do you guys in the US usually take in years 11 and 12, and do you really need them? I won't be requiring my kids to study calculus. (Can if they want to, of course.) What would they need it for? I think there are more useful ways to exercise the brain. The maths they do study will be done thoroughly, you can be sure. I guess it depends what we think rigorous means; and what sorts of pre-requisites you have for uni. I did some calculus at (a crappy public) school, and dropped maths at the end of year eleven. My dh is far more mathsy than I, and did maths right through at his private school. He was in "veggie" maths though, and didn't touch calculus.I guess what it comes down to is "is it important to me that my kids study calculus." It's not important to me. Geometry, yes, algebra, yes, calculus, no! Rosie Calculus in some form or the other is required by many American universities these days where math departments may offer as many as three versions of the course: the traditional three semester sequence for engineers, an applied one or two semester sequence for business majors or social scientists and a liberal arts (Calculus for Poets?) course. Given that American students often begin their college years in a general program and declare a major after a year or two at the university, being prepared to follow a variety of paths is not a bad idea. Further, many American colleges request that incoming students have three or four years of mathematics in high school. This does not necessarily mean Calculus. Another option is statistics although I don't see why a course in finite math couldn't fit the bill. Some American high school students study Algebra I/Geometry/Alg II/Precalculus but kids who are science oriented or applying to competitive schools usually cover algebra I in 8th grade. Their four years of math will consist of Geometry/Alg II/Precalc/Calculus (differential--integral as well for the hard core). Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Also, at almost all universities a mathematics course is required for the basic general education requirements. This may or may not be satisfied by an AP course depending on the school. A student who has stopped all mathematical activities after 10th grade will be at a disadvantage, should they decide to attend university. Even if at 10th grade they could have placed into the gen ed course, it is quite likely that in those two years of disuse they will forget and be placed into a non-credit bearing course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Also, at almost all universities a mathematics course is required for the basic general education requirements. This may or may not be satisfied by an AP course depending on the school. A student who has stopped all mathematical activities after 10th grade will be at a disadvantage, should they decide to attend university. Even if at 10th grade they could have placed into the gen ed course, it is quite likely that in those two years of disuse they will forget and be placed into a non-credit bearing course. I took Algebra 1 in 8th grade, Geometry in 9th and Algebra 2 in 10th. I was incensed to find out that my high school level courses taken in 8th grade counted for nothing and that I was required for graduation to take ANOTHER math course! In rebellion, I took Computers. When I went to college several years later, I had a no problem at all with taking math. I got a near perfect average in Pre-calc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Also, at almost all universities a mathematics course is required for the basic general education requirements. This may or may not be satisfied by an AP course depending on the school. A student who has stopped all mathematical activities after 10th grade will be at a disadvantage, should they decide to attend university. Even if at 10th grade they could have placed into the gen ed course, it is quite likely that in those two years of disuse they will forget and be placed into a non-credit bearing course. Good point. I think that a lot of people who think that their chosen profession or college major won't require math are surprised by how quantified so many disciplines have become. Statistics and modeling are commonplace. A student who has not cracked open a math book for a few years could be at a real disadvantage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Ah, so this is a college entry requirement thread, not an educational philosophy thread. I get it now :) Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I took Algebra 1 in 8th grade, Geometry in 9th and Algebra 2 in 10th. I was incensed to find out that my high school level courses taken in 8th grade counted for nothing and that I was required for graduation to take ANOTHER math course! In rebellion, I took Computers. When I went to college several years later, I had a no problem at all with taking math. I got a near perfect average in Pre-calc. This is on average. There are exceptions. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 As I'm looking more carefully through my copy of WTM, I'm surprised that the chapters on mathematics are so short and uninspiring compared to the rest of the book. In the rhetoric stage, there is a statement that some students may not take any math courses in grades 11 and 12. :eek: I understand that classical education is language oriented, but doesn't it encourage rigorous studies overall? I think what it encourages is learning how to learn, using language tools. And I'm thinking that if one has those language tools, one could go further in math if one wanted to - like, I can go READ about various math philosophies now, and various math programs, and maybe even start to understand what mathematicians are talking about, and then decide for myself if that's a road I want to educate myself in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kah Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) Ah, so this is a college entry requirement thread, not an educational philosophy thread. I get it now :) Rosie I'm coming to this discussing a little late, but I've always thought of it (as a student, teacher, and parent) as a matter of not closing any doors too soon in life. If you pursue the most rigorous high school education available and appropriate for you (whatever that is), you have a wider variety of choices available to you when you graduate. If you stop taking something (math, in this case) "because I already have enough credits," you may find later that you've limited your choices in ways you regret. Of course, in reality the doors that you keep open are often ones to more competitive colleges, or to a wider variety of majors, but I do think of it as a general educational philosophy too. Eventually you do reach a point where you have to specialize, of course, but the later you can make that decision, the more likely you are to have had the chance to find areas you truly love or at which you excel. (That's my hope, anyway- but this is also coming for a very liberal-artsy person! I have several areas I would probably never have found to be my life's calling, but where I still regret not taking one more class because I didn't want an 8:00 class- what was I thinking!?) Edited May 11, 2009 by kah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 I'm coming to this discussing a little late, but I've always thought of it (as a student, teacher, and parent) as a matter of not closing any doors too soon in life. If you pursue the most rigorous high school education available and appropriate for you (whatever that is), you have a wider variety of choices available to you when you graduate. If you stop taking something (math, in this case) "because I already have enough credits," you may find later that you've limited your choices in ways you regret. Of course, in reality the doors that you keep open are often ones to more competitive colleges, or to a wider variety of majors, but I do think of it as a general educational philosophy too. This makes a lot off sense to me. I consider math one of the 'basic' subjects to study, and I want to have a wider range of study and career options open for my kids as they get older. And what Jane in NC said about so many occupations using some form of math is true. Reading some of the sections in WTM about history and literature get me excited about studying those topics. (History and Lit are far from my areas of expertise ;)) But reading the chapters on math made me feel like....you can do sequence A or sequence B, just get the topics covered and do the next thing...blaaah. I haven't read any other resources on Classical education....and there are so many great viewpoints on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I guess it's different for me because our system is different. We don't require credits the way you do. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen sn Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 That is an excellent idea, as having a proper lab is unlikely at home. Is there anything in particular recommended to build up the foundation of one's children's science and math knowledge? And also for math, which doesn't (normally) require a lab. This might be of help: http://www.beginningspublishing.com/version2/bridge.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 What courses do you guys in the US usually take in years 11 and 12, and do you really need them? ... What would they need it for? I think there are more useful ways to exercise the brain. Well, some people could say the same about learning Latin or reading so many Greek tragedies, you know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I passionately believe that every student who is capable of doing so should study mathematics through introductory calculus (and get a basic introduction to each of the main fields of science, for that matter). ...even if he's going to be an artist, or she's going to be an automechanic. Absolutely. Cultural literacy goes beyond Shakespeare to include Newton and Darwin for example. My father passed on to me his set of Great Books which includes literature, philosophy, science and mathematics. These disciplines are all part of the Great Conversation. It saddens me when we place subjects in isolated compartments. Granted, much of modern mathematics is hard to understand without many years of advanced study. Most adults cannot begin to name the great mathematicians (Gauss, Galois, Euler, etc.) I sometimes wonder if mathematicians have contributed to the divide, if we have painted our subject as one that is inaccessible. Sigh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 For cultural/mathematical literacy with a fair amount of mathematics thrown in, I really enjoyed ET Bell's "Men of Mathematics". This book was one of the books which strongly influenced me to study mathematics. It also does a fairly good (imo) job of explaining the concepts of modern mathematics without making it inaccessible to someone with only a high school education. ymmv :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I loved that book in college! The stories of many of those mathematicians are rather sordid -- not dry reading by any stretch of the imagination. I propose we start a mathy/sciency CM/Classics club. I would love that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 For cultural/mathematical literacy with a fair amount of mathematics thrown in, I really enjoyed ET Bell's "Men of Mathematics". This book was one of the books which strongly influenced me to study mathematics. It also does a fairly good (imo) job of explaining the concepts of modern mathematics without making it inaccessible to someone with only a high school education. ymmv :) Thanks for the book suggestion (and only $14 at Amazon :)) I'm open to more suggestions! My boys have been reading Mathematicians are People Too. One of my sons is very interested in math....I just don't want to kill his interest, I want to encourage him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 For cultural/mathematical literacy with a fair amount of mathematics thrown in, I really enjoyed ET Bell's "Men of Mathematics". This book was one of the books which strongly influenced me to study mathematics. It also does a fairly good (imo) job of explaining the concepts of modern mathematics without making it inaccessible to someone with only a high school education. ymmv :) Bell took some liberties but the result has certainly inspired more than a few people to study mathematics. I guess I would want potential readers to know that the work is not known for its accuracy or its scholarship. But you are right--he makes math accessible. I have had my copy since my freshman year of college. :D Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HomeschoolHoney Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) :001_huh: Edited May 12, 2009 by HomeschoolHoney didn't post to corrent person's comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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