Exactly how are sola scriptura folks not Christian?

[Laura K (NC)]

Nice title, huh?

 

Hypothetical post:

 

I believe that a correct reading of the Bible makes works a necessary result a faith, and without faith works is dead. I believe that those who believe works aren't necessary aren't Christian, because they contradict the Scriptures. For example, the parables in Mt. 24 seem explicitly to say that faith devoid of works is just lip service.

 

If this kind of post is allowed here, then let's see the other side. I have my Bible and a page of prooftexts ready.

[HRAAB]

Regarding the other thread, the OP was asking a genuine question. She is not a Christian, and the question was along the lines of 'how could a Catholic not be considered a Christian???' From someone on the outside of Christianity looking in, it must seem very odd. She wasn't looking for an argument.

 

Janet

[Laura K (NC)]

I'm not Jewish or Muslim, but if I asked a similar question of their traditions, like if I questioned whether they are monotheists, I don't think it would be any more excusable. It seems like there's an obvious answer to the question -- of course! -- but it also seems to me that there's an obvious answer to the question of whether Catholics are Christians.

[abbeyej]

But the question was not meant to be "are Catholics Christians"? The gist of her question was "Why do some people consider themselves to be Christians and Catholics not to be?"

[Laura K (NC)]

She was asking for an elaboration of prejudice, the reasons for it, how strongly it is held.

[Laura K (NC)]

But there aren't references for that kind of thing. It's a subjective question, like "Exactly HOW are atheists not good people?" The question is framed the same as the OP's. I couldn't imagine an atheist getting warm fuzzies over a question about them worded thus.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

She was asking for an elaboration of prejudice, the reasons for it, how strongly it is held.

 

How can prejudice ever be overcome if it is not talked about openly? IMO keeping prejudice hidden in dark corners is what allows it to grow and fester.

[Laura K (NC)]

As long as we are talking about salvation and scripture, I'd like to hear the responses. Can we have a civil discussion about this?

[abreakfromlife]

I didn't post on the other thread and only skimmed it, but the one thing that really ...........aggravates me - I think that's the word closest to my feelings- about Protestantism (of which I am one) is this focus on the word 'belief'........The word belief doesn't mean a passive belief in a set of facts - oh I believe Jesus died on a specific Friday in 29AD and came to life that Sunday - but an active way of life. I believe I am a homeschooler, so I am going to act that out in everything I do. That's why Jesus says if you love me, you'll obey me, and James says you need works to 'prove' your faith. If christians really 'believe' in Jesus, they would be trying their hardest to emulate his life - feeding the poor, healing the sick, helping the oppressed, fighting for justice.

 

But instead, the church has tons of people saying 'oh I believe in Jesus' but their life doesn't reflect that at all, because the church somehow has gotten this idea that all you need to do is say a 'prayer' that confirms a set of historical facts and poof - off to heaven you go. That is why the church is so lame and ineffective. We have pews/seats full of people only concerned about paying their DVR bill and buying their next Wii game and everything else materialistic, and ignoring for the most part the homeless people in our cities, slaves around the world, starving people around the world.............................................

 

and instead of trying to fix that, the 'church' wants to demonize a part of the church that is actually out there that does have helping people and 'doing works' as a big focus of their faith.

 

*not that watching tv or playing video games or anything else is wrong - but it's the priority that it takes in a persons life, and by and large, the 'church' has vastly misplaced priorities.

[Laura K (NC)]

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." That's the wrong quote (since "fool" has since taken on a more derogatory meaning), but the idea is still the same. The more sensitive the issue, the more caution is warranted. There was a thread on being "PC" a while back. Why would anyone "not" be PC? If being "PC" merely means "fearing to tread," or having an active empathy about opinions that one doesn't personally share, or being charitable in areas about which one does not strictly know, then being PC is a pretty good thing.

 

Prejudice needs to be addressed, but not by inviting criticism of a group about which there is already a blinding prejudice.

[abreakfromlife]

oh I know what else I wanted to add to my little rant, LOL.............Compassion International has been around for 30 years. 30 years! That's amazing. It only costs, what, $32 a month to feed/clothe/educate a starving child somewhere in the world? Did you know that they haven't even hit their 1 million child mark yet? I think that is atrocious and the collective church should be so ashamed. 30 years, and all these millions of 'christians' in America, and one of the leading organizations for feeding the hungry can't even get 1 million kids fed. I just think that is a terrible record for a group of people claiming to love and serve someone for whom the poor and hungry is one of his main concerns.

[Heather in Neverland]

As long as we are talking about salvation and scripture, I'd like to hear the responses. Can we have a civil discussion about this?

 

Based on the tone of your posts in the other thread, this thread topic appears "snarky". Again, I am sorry you have been hurt by prejudice in the past but the bible tells us to love those who persecute us. Please don't let this make you bitter. People often criticize what they don't know and many people don't know a lot about catholicism and are too lazy or _______ to study it. And some people from a young age, like myself, were told by their narrow-minded pastors that catholics are not going to heaven. As an adult, I chose to reject that information (obviously since I married a catholic). Many others will do the same. Some won't. But remaining peaceful in the face of persecution will do more to spread the understanding of the catholic faith than retaliating with snark. And I say all this with the love of a fellow christian because I care about your feelings.

[Heather in Neverland]

How can prejudice ever be overcome if it is not talked about openly? IMO keeping prejudice hidden in dark corners is what allows it to grow and fester.

 

:iagree:

[Laura K (NC)]

The post that was deleted was said to be snarky, but it was just a question why someone would admit their post was offensive, and yet post it anyway.

 

I don't mean to offend. I'm continuing the discussion that was started on a more level ground. If we want to discuss whether salvation includes works or excludes works, that other thread, istm, pushed Catholics into a defensive posture. I want to start fresh where both parties would be on level ground. So far we have it here, since neither side is threatened.

[Dobela]

 

oh I know what else I wanted to add to my little rant, LOL.............Compassion International has been around for 30 years. 30 years! That's amazing. It only costs, what, $32 a month to feed/clothe/educate a starving child somewhere in the world? Did you know that they haven't even hit their 1 million child mark yet? I think that is atrocious and the collective church should be so ashamed. 30 years, and all these millions of 'christians' in America, and one of the leading organizations for feeding the hungry can't even get 1 million kids fed. I just think that is a terrible record for a group of people claiming to love and serve someone for whom the poor and hungry is one of his main concerns.

I am a Christian and I am serious about helping the poor and hungry and children. I just chose to do it locally, not thru an organization, and to do it on a personal level. I know many many CHristians that do the same thing. Yes, those children need help but I know many in my own town that do as well. Because my priorities are local doesn't mean I am living a life devoid of love and charity or contrary to Christian doctrine. I also think that the same can be said about other Christians. Many also have groups within their denominations that provide care and charity to children all over. The Baptists have Buckners as one example, in our state are several private foster care agencies that are church based, and so on.

[Danestress]

I just think that is a terrible record for a group of people claiming to love and serve someone for whom the poor and hungry is one of his main concerns.

 

But surely you know it's not the only relief organization that Christians contribute to. Children Children's fund serves 15 million children and families. If you add up ALL the organizations that contribute to the welfare of children, I think people are pretty generous (not just Christians, but people generally).

[OnTheBrink]

oh I know what else I wanted to add to my little rant, LOL.............Compassion International has been around for 30 years. 30 years! That's amazing. It only costs, what, $32 a month to feed/clothe/educate a starving child somewhere in the world? Did you know that they haven't even hit their 1 million child mark yet? I think that is atrocious and the collective church should be so ashamed. 30 years, and all these millions of 'christians' in America, and one of the leading organizations for feeding the hungry can't even get 1 million kids fed. I just think that is a terrible record for a group of people claiming to love and serve someone for whom the poor and hungry is one of his main concerns.

 

Jesus' main concern was bringing people to salvation. He didn't come to earth to feed people. He came to save sinners from their sins. Meeting physical needs was secondary to meeting spiritual ones. He said specifically to not worry about food, what to eat or drink, or what to wear. He was far more concerned for souls.

 

And, you think all "Christians" should be ashamed because they aren't supporting a charity you feel is worthwhile? You can't see beyond your own nose that maybe maybe, "Christians" could possibly be supporting their own church's efforts/ministries or other organizations that help feed hungry children? Do you seriously believe that Compassion International is the only organization worth "Christians" money or time? You judge an entire church based on whether it supports ONE of MANY organizations designed to alleviate hunger in the world? Seriously?

 

Frankly, I think presuming to know the hearts and actions of people, based solely on how Compassion International is doing, is ridiculous.

 

And, FYI, I give to World Vision. My money, my decision on how to disburse it.

[Laura K (NC)]

I would say that a Christian who doesn't do some form of charity like this (if he is able) isn't a Christian. And I believe Jesus said the same thing in Mt 25:31-46, especially the part about those who don't perform works of charity (when they are able) "going away to eternal punishment." (v. 46).

[Danestress]

it makes no sense to me that you would really be filled with the Holy Spirit and yet continue to live only for yourself and your limited circle.

[Dobela]

From the book of James, chapter 2 we are clearly told that works and faith are absolutely tied together:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

Bolding is mine, the translation used was the New Internatioanl Version

Edited April 27, 2009 by Dobela
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[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I would say that a Christian who doesn't do some form of charity like this (if he is able) isn't a Christian. And I believe Jesus said the same thing in Mt 25:31-46, especially the part about those who don't perform works of charity (when they are able) "going away to eternal punishment." (v. 46).

 

Keep in mind I march to my own drummer when it comes to my spiritual beliefs. But I do feel the teachings of Jesus are important to my life and that what Jesus taught was to do good works. For me, just believing that someone was crucified and rose from the dead is not going to help me be more like Christ or closer to God.

 

As for eternal punishment, I don't believe in hell. I believe that people who are able but do not do good works are not going to experience what can come from doing them, and that is an eternal punishment IMO.

 

I do agree that my interpretation of the Bible is that works are a necessary result of faith.

[MamaT]

I think there are a lot of Christians that give a lot more than you realize. They just do not advertise it. They do it out of love, not for people to see what a great person they are. My dh went to the Philippines for years doing missions work, taking our children, and just loving the Filipiino people. A private Christian school where my husband had done some work was about to go under. He bought the school and gave it back to them. We are not wealthy people. He has never told a soul about this. There are a lot of people who give selflessly and others never see it, because that is not their motivation.

[secular_mom]

She was asking for an elaboration of prejudice, the reasons for it, how strongly it is held.

 

She was asking for people to back up their claims, with some sort of 'evidence' for them. If you are truly so deeply offended by such questions and responses, you are more than free to not open such threads. There's absolutely no need to bash the OP.

[Laura K (NC)]

Assessing Christianity, he said in effect that he liked Jesus, but didn't see him in Christians. Christians were actually a stumbling block to him. Unfortunately this is the case too often, but it's hard to be good!

 

Charity is a kind of evangelism. Jesus did plenty of good works but there was always a higher good in mind. Good works bring a kind of Kingdom of God to earth while we are here temporarily as a foretaste of heaven.

[Dobela]

Assessing Christianity, he said in effect that he liked Jesus, but didn't see him in Christians. Christians were actually a stumbling block to him. Unfortunately this is the case too often, but it's hard to be good!

 

Charity is a kind of evangelism. Jesus did plenty of good works but there was always a higher good in mind. Good works bring a kind of Kingdom of God to earth while we are here temporarily as a foretaste of heaven.

:iagree:

[abreakfromlife]

I know that there are a lot of christians that give and a lot of good charities besides CI out there - but for as many millions of 'christians' as there are in America, alone, if everyone was really giving and serving, we would be making a HUGE impact on the world. And that just isn't happening. I'm not saying no christians give, or only one or two charities are worthwhile. CI was just an example. But I still think it is sad for one of the countries leading christian charities, to not even hit 1 million, when over the past 30 years there has been how many millions of 'christians' in America, that couldn't manage to spend $30 a month on a child?

 

It's not that far out there to say a lot of christians don't give very much, or that the American Protestant church has it's priorities off. If our priorities were right, we would be a lot more effective, and our main concern wouldn't be materialistic things. I mean, just think about how much money christians spend just on hollywood stuff. Not that seeing a movie is bad or always waste of money, but how many people do you know in your church that spend a lot of money on seeing movies in the theaters? How can the church justify spending such a lot of our discretionary spending on something so worthless, week after week? Statistically, christians are still what, 60, 70 % of the American population? Think about how much good we could do if we greatly reduced 'wasting' our money on frivolous things and spent them instead on clean water filters for africa or different charities, etc.

 

My point wasn't that no christians give. But that the financial priorities of American christians are for the most part misplaced. It's not that material things are bad, or that taking a break and veging out once in a while is wrong - God did design us to need rest and relaxation. But is that our goal in life, to enjoy our life, or is our goal in life to help others? And I'm pointing the finger just as much at myself - it's hard to do, obviously. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

[Laura K (NC)]

Mt. 6:1-3. I think there are sometimes good reasons to "advertise" charity to inspire other people to do more, but you're right, most people don't know how much other people give.

 

Obviously there's a terrible division between rich and poor in this world so obviously, as a whole, people (not just Christians) aren't doing enough. (I'm not advocating socialism or Marxism, because in those systems, one isn't free to give... one is forced to give.)

[Laura K (NC)]

1. I'm not bashing. I'm redirecting the unfortunate choice of words.

 

2. "There's no need to bash the OP." "you are more than free to not open such threads."

[OnTheBrink]

 

My point wasn't that no christians give. But that the financial priorities of American christians are for the most part misplaced. It's not that material things are bad, or that taking a break and veging out once in a while is wrong - God did design us to need rest and relaxation. But is that our goal in life, to enjoy our life, or is our goal in life to help others? And I'm pointing the finger just as much at myself - it's hard to do, obviously. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

You make many presumptions and gross generalizations. You truly have no idea what people are doing or what their priorities are. If you feel you need to give more, then do so. Since I'm confident you don't know the financial situations of every single Christian in America, you really have no place to make such sweeping judgments.

 

And your whole premise is based on assumptions that may not be accurate. You assume that every hungry child in the world lives in a country whose government would even allow external assistance. Christians could give 100% of their income to that cause and find that no children are being fed. You presume if only Christians would give more, world hunger would end. Not true.

 

I know several families right now, devout Christian families, who are struggling. Should they sell their car and donate the $$ to CI? Lose their job since they can't get to work now, and thereby have children who have no food themselves, so CI can reach their 1Mth child? Maybe they should stop shopping at that horrendously expensive Goodwill for clothes and send the money to CI and let their own kids go without. Maybe the wealthy families I know should stop supporting the missionary organizations and only support CI. Just pull those pesky missionaries off the field; they're not welcome anyway, right?

 

Arguments like what you make make ME want to go kick something. The hubris it takes to make such sweeping judgments against other brothers and sisters in Christ, whom you don't know at all, is astounding.

[Rosy]

In my 14 years as a conservative Protestant, I have heard few (if any) Protestants say that works are not a necessary part of salvation. We are saved by faith, and works are an essential part of faith. Personally I do believe that the American church needs to take more of an active role in providing for the rest of the world's needs (as well as the needs of those in our own communities), but I choose to let God be my judge as to whether I'm adequately following Him and investing what He's given me into His Kingdom.

 

The people in my church are some of the most generous people I've ever met. One couple I know chose to retire earlier than necessary so they could spend their lives doing good. They go on dental mission trips. They provide home improvement services to low-income people. They spend 3 days, dawn to dusk, helping us remodel when we first moved into our fixer-upper. They are a blessing to their family. They give money to the needy, but even more, they give themselves. I know of many people in our church who give similarly--they may not have the same ability, but they give what they are able to give.

 

So just because someone doesn't believe they are saved by works, doesn't mean they aren't doing them. In fact, they may be doing more, out of a heart of gratitude, than they would if they felt like they needed to earn their salvation.

[Aubrey]

I see it like baseball. We're in the outfield, & ea of us has part of the field to hold down. If I look at someone else & start griping at him for not keeping his mitt up or eyes open or whatever, my eyes aren't on the ball.

 

We're not supposed to look at ea other, criticize ea other. We're supposed to look to Jesus & do the best we can w/ the understanding we have. If someone else's understanding is different--our eyes aren't on Jesus.

 

If the outfielder next to me gets stung by a bee that's stuck in his pants so that he CAN'T catch a ball that comes his direction, it's best for the team if we work together & I help cover his part of the field. I think Christian-ese calls this standing in the gap.

 

But if we beat ea other up w/ our bats when our understanding of what God requires of us differs from ea other, what does that say about how we'll treat people who aren't playing the game?

[secular_mom]

1. I'm not bashing. I'm redirecting the unfortunate choice of words.

 

2. "There's no need to bash the OP." "you are more than free to not open such threads."

 

Peace.

[asta]

I see it like baseball. We're in the outfield, & ea of us has part of the field to hold down. If I look at someone else & start griping at him for not keeping his mitt up or eyes open or whatever, my eyes aren't on the ball.

 

We're not supposed to look at ea other, criticize ea other. We're supposed to look to Jesus & do the best we can w/ the understanding we have. If someone else's understanding is different--our eyes aren't on Jesus.

 

If the outfielder next to me gets stung by a bee that's stuck in his pants so that he CAN'T catch a ball that comes his direction, it's best for the team if we work together & I help cover his part of the field. I think Christian-ese calls this standing in the gap.

 

But if we beat ea other up w/ our bats when our understanding of what God requires of us differs from ea other, what does that say about how we'll treat people who aren't playing the game?

 

Very nice post, Aubrey.

[Laura K (NC)]

There's a difference between the Pelagian view of salvation and the Catholic view of salvation. It was the Catholic Church, which was at the time also the Orthodox Church -- a united Christianity -- which condemned Pelagius and his teachings as unscriptural.

[Rosy]

There's a difference between the Pelagian view of salvation and the Catholic view of salvation. It was the Catholic Church, which was at the time also the Orthodox Church -- a united Christianity -- which condemned Pelagius and his teachings as unscriptural.

 

I know nothing about the Pelagian view of salvation...care to enlighten me? :)

[Rosy]

Also, I respect that Catholics might not feel that they need to "earn salvation" through good works...I would love to hear an explanation of the Catholic view of the connection between works and salvation.

 

FWIW, I come from a nominal Catholic background, converted to evangelical protestantism 14 years ago, and my Catholic grandparents are two of the most loving and giving Christians I know.

[HRAAB]

There's a difference between the Pelagian view of salvation and the Catholic view of salvation. It was the Catholic Church, which was at the time also the Orthodox Church -- a united Christianity -- which condemned Pelagius and his teachings as unscriptural.

 

I have heard that Orthodox don't believe in original sin in the same way Catholics do. I'm wondering if they followed more of Pelgaius' teaching than Rome? Maybe an Orthodox could chime in here?

 

Janet

[Erica in PA]

Nice title, huh?

 

Hypothetical post:

 

I believe that a correct reading of the Bible makes works a necessary result a faith, and without faith works is dead. I believe that those who believe works aren't necessary aren't Christian, because they contradict the Scriptures. For example, the parables in Mt. 24 seem explicitly to say that faith devoid of works is just lip service.

 

If this kind of post is allowed here, then let's see the other side. I have my Bible and a page of prooftexts ready.

 

That's fine. That is your opinion, based on your understanding of Scripture. I actually do happen to agree with you that works are a result of faith, and that true faith will show itself through works, but even if I disagreed, it wouldn't hurt my feelings to know that you thought I was wrong on that. If you said you didn't think I was saved because of my false understanding of salvation, I would disagree, but know that you didn't mean me any harm-- it is theology based, not personally motivated.

[mommaduck]

Nice title, huh?

 

Hypothetical post:

 

I believe that a correct reading of the Bible makes works a necessary result a faith, and without faith works is dead. I believe that those who believe works aren't necessary aren't Christian, because they contradict the Scriptures. For example, the parables in Mt. 24 seem explicitly to say that faith devoid of works is just lip service.

 

If this kind of post is allowed here, then let's see the other side. I have my Bible and a page of prooftexts ready.

 

Like with Catholicism, there is much misunderstanding of this side as well.

 

Sola Scriptura does not leave out works. Works are a byproduct of true faith...they are a Grace of Gd working through us, not created by us ourselves.

 

Also, Sola Scriptura is not absent of other things. Though it holds the "Sola" title, it is not alone. There are technically 5 Solas: Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Christus or Solo Christo, and Solo Deo Gloria.

 

Given the above, and that I can see the Catholic and Orthodox points of Tradition, one might also believe in Sola Tradition (uncertain of the latin term though). These things each have their role, but are yet intertwined. (we just may not agree on all the Traditions)

 

 

oh I know what else I wanted to add to my little rant, LOL.............Compassion International has been around for 30 years. 30 years! That's amazing. It only costs, what, $32 a month to feed/clothe/educate a starving child somewhere in the world? Did you know that they haven't even hit their 1 million child mark yet? I think that is atrocious and the collective church should be so ashamed. 30 years, and all these millions of 'christians' in America, and one of the leading organizations for feeding the hungry can't even get 1 million kids fed. I just think that is a terrible record for a group of people claiming to love and serve someone for whom the poor and hungry is one of his main concerns.

There are many other groups that Christians also support. If you add them altogether...then you may not be so quick to accuse.

Edited April 27, 2009 by mommaduck
to combine posts

[mommaduck]

nt - combined with earlier post

Edited April 27, 2009 by mommaduck

[abreakfromlife]

I don't think it's arrogant to say the church is not doing enough to help the poor and oppressed in the world. It seems just as misguided for you to say that everyone is giving enough. I don't know the financial situation of every christian, just as no one does. So it's even more dangerous to say that everyone is giving enough, when life and death hangs in the balance. I would much rather err on the side of saying 'we need to be giving more' instead of saying 'the church does enough because some people give to charity'. I feel like I've derailed the OP, and I'm sorry. But this circles back to what I was originally trying to say.

 

Jesus calls us to a life of servanthood. That means an active life of serving him, and doing what he wants and actively loving people and helping the poor and oppressed and wounded. It is very easy to get away from that when we change the tense of the word 'belief' from an active to a passive one. Jesus calls us to serve him by serving the world. Not just in a humanitarian sense, but because Jesus loves them and has good things planned for them, but how are they to know that if someone doesn't feed them so they don't starve to death, and then tell them they are being fed b/c Jesus loves them and has life for them.

 

In the baseball analogy - that's all well and good, but where is the place for encouraging each other to do better? Obviously I'm not a very diplomatic speaker, or typer :glare: But it's too bad if someone can't stand up and say 'yes the church can, and should, do better when it comes to acts of service and love'. I'm not faulting people that give. I'm saying that there are many people that don't give, or don't have giving as a high priority. And don't yell at me about knowing financial statements. The fact is, the world would be a vastly different place if American christians really made service and giving one of their highest priorities.

 

It doesn't even have to be money. We spend all of this time running back and forth to sports activities and extra-curriculars but we don't spend nearly that amount of time giving of our time to other things. I don't see myself running down to the soup kitchen to volunteer for an evening, but I'll go sit and go to baseball games every night of the week. I'm not saying any of this from some house up on the hill thinking what a good job I'm doing. I know personally, and for my family, we can and should be doing a lot more. It is a struggle in feeling like there aren't a lot of other people who feel that way, and maybe that's not a true perception. But it is a little disheartening at church and other places to hear people talking about all the time and money and attention they're giving to material things and not hear any discussion about how we can do something for the local soup kitchen or places to volunteer, etc.

 

And then if you dare to say Protestants don't make 'works' as important as they should and christians aren't living a servant life the way we're called to, you get called arrogant. Is there really no place for christians to say 'look! We have a world starving to death. There are 27 million humans trapped in slavery. Let's make this a priority! Yes, some people are doing something. But we can do better.' Is it really so arrogant to say that?

[mommaduck]

I don't think it's arrogant to say the church is not doing enough to help the poor and oppressed in the world. It seems just as misguided for you to say that everyone is giving enough. I don't know the financial situation of every christian, just as no one does. So it's even more dangerous to say that everyone is giving enough, when life and death hangs in the balance. I would much rather err on the side of saying 'we need to be giving more' instead of saying 'the church does enough because some people give to charity'. I feel like I've derailed the OP, and I'm sorry. But this circles back to what I was originally trying to say.

 

Jesus calls us to a life of servanthood. That means an active life of serving him, and doing what he wants and actively loving people and helping the poor and oppressed and wounded. It is very easy to get away from that when we change the tense of the word 'belief' from an active to a passive one. Jesus calls us to serve him by serving the world. Not just in a humanitarian sense, but because Jesus loves them and has good things planned for them, but how are they to know that if someone doesn't feed them so they don't starve to death, and then tell them they are being fed b/c Jesus loves them and has life for them.

 

In the baseball analogy - that's all well and good, but where is the place for encouraging each other to do better? Obviously I'm not a very diplomatic speaker, or typer :glare: But it's too bad if someone can't stand up and say 'yes the church can, and should, do better when it comes to acts of service and love'. I'm not faulting people that give. I'm saying that there are many people that don't give, or don't have giving as a high priority. And don't yell at me about knowing financial statements. The fact is, the world would be a vastly different place if American christians really made service and giving one of their highest priorities.

 

It doesn't even have to be money. We spend all of this time running back and forth to sports activities and extra-curriculars but we don't spend nearly that amount of time giving of our time to other things. I don't see myself running down to the soup kitchen to volunteer for an evening, but I'll go sit and go to baseball games every night of the week. I'm not saying any of this from some house up on the hill thinking what a good job I'm doing. I know personally, and for my family, we can and should be doing a lot more. It is a struggle in feeling like there aren't a lot of other people who feel that way, and maybe that's not a true perception. But it is a little disheartening at church and other places to hear people talking about all the time and money and attention they're giving to material things and not hear any discussion about how we can do something for the local soup kitchen or places to volunteer, etc.

 

And then if you dare to say Protestants don't make 'works' as important as they should and christians aren't living a servant life the way we're called to, you get called arrogant. Is there really no place for christians to say 'look! We have a world starving to death. There are 27 million humans trapped in slavery. Let's make this a priority! Yes, some people are doing something. But we can do better.' Is it really so arrogant to say that?

 

And you know what? Many practicing, not just proclaimed, Christians agree with you! But like many faiths, we have those that are practicing (what we call "saved", "born again", "regenerated", what have you) and those that are simply "Christian" in name only or because they were raised in a church and never became anything else.

[Murphy101]

Nice title, huh?

 

Hypothetical post:

 

I believe that a correct reading of the Bible makes works a necessary result a faith, and without faith works is dead. I believe that those who believe works aren't necessary aren't Christian, because they contradict the Scriptures. For example, the parables in Mt. 24 seem explicitly to say that faith devoid of works is just lip service.

 

If this kind of post is allowed here, then let's see the other side. I have my Bible and a page of prooftexts ready.

 

sola scriptura has nothing to do with works or faith alone.

it has to do with the bible alone vs other factors for basis or contribution to belief and faith practices, such as tradition, papal leadership and so forth.

 

Also, I respect that Catholics might not feel that they need to "earn salvation" through good works...I would love to hear an explanation of the Catholic view of the connection between works and salvation.

 

it's not only that we do not feel we need to earn salvation, we know we cannot earn it! by our very sinful natures and lowly human status, we cannot ever hope to reach a status of worth comparable to heavenly companionship with God because we can never be perfect gods.

 

works are the result of faith and living as God commands us to live and

works are an ongoing effort to avoid sin

because sin further separates us from God and displeases Him and makes us even less worthy of attaining heaven

 

 

I didn't think the other thread was about works vs faith.

I thought some were saying that since we derive some of our practices and beliefs from more than bible only (not sola scriptura) that it made cathoics not christian.

 

Obviously I think they are wrong.

because obviosuly I don't think it is possible to believe sola scriptura as to believe it one MUST believe in sacred tradition.

the concept contradicts itself.

 

please excuse my horrid typing. I'm multitasking and have a tendancy to type dyslectic even without doing that.:tongue_smilie:

[FlockOfSillies]

Nice title, huh?

 

Hypothetical post:

 

I believe that a correct reading of the Bible makes works a necessary result a faith, and without faith works is dead. I believe that those who believe works aren't necessary aren't Christian, because they contradict the Scriptures. For example, the parables in Mt. 24 seem explicitly to say that faith devoid of works is just lip service.

 

If this kind of post is allowed here, then let's see the other side. I have my Bible and a page of prooftexts ready.

 

"Sola Scriptura" doesn't mean works aren't necessary. Neither does "Sola Fide." Should I have read more of the other thread? :001_huh:

[Murphy101]

I don't think it's arrogant to say the church is not doing enough to help the poor and oppressed in the world.

 

 

I do.

 

If by "church" you mean individuals - well of course we could all probably do more.

and of course there's some that don't do anything at all

 

but if by "church" you mean the Roman Catholic Church as a whole - that is blarney. I can't think of any one denomination that does even half as much as the RC Church does on a global level. I can't think of any organization in my area that does as much as Catholic Chairties does. It's amazing what they do in nearly ever aspect of society.

 

I think the biggest failure of the Church is the lack of promotion of what all it does quietly within every community every single day. You probably won't find a huge bus or truck with our name blazed on the side and pamplets all over the place or time on tv. You'll just see a bunch of people in their own cars and a priest or nun going about their daily business of corporal and spiritual works getting the job quietly done without any fanfare.

 

And to make matters worse, the truth is many people (heck entire gov'ts!) do not WANT catholic help. They don't want catholics there. Yet we send our priests and our nuns to be shot and excluded and rediculed anyways. In the hopes of offerring faith, education, health care and anything else we have that they need.

 

Could we do more?

 

You bet.

 

Just like everyone else.

 

Including you.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug:

 

I avoid posting on the religious and secular question posts, but I silently wince for so many hurtful comments posed as questions. Many times they are so hurtful and would be better off discussed in person or elsewhere imo.

ymmv