Another CC Question re/the Bible

[HRAAB]

If you can all stand another one.

 

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and infallible:

 

how did you come to this belief? Was it from reading the Bible itself? The testimony and teaching of others? A personal revelation through prayer?

 

I would very much and sincerely like to understand (to the best of my ability) how someone comes to such an absolute belief about a book.

 

Janet

[specialmama]

The Book speaks for itself and is full of power. Those who do not have the Spirit cannot understand it, but those who have the Spirit of God understand. If one is studying the scriptures seeking truth, he will find it if he asks God to help him. God will reveal it to him who has eyes to see and ears to hear.

[PiCO]

The Book speaks for itself and is full of power. Those who do not have the Spirit cannot understand it, but those who have the Spirit of God understand. If one is studying the scriptures seeking truth, he will find it if he asks God to help him. God will reveal it to him who has eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

So, if I have read the Bible and I do not believe it should be taken as the literal truth, then by your definition I am somehow deficient. Is this a correct interpretation of your belief?

[newlifemom]

Janet,

 

For me it was similar to following Lewis' analogy. You know Lord, lunatic or liar. I am not a biblical scholar so don't expect any Bible verses. I have read them at different times even if I cannot remember what or where they are now. It boils down to either I believe all of it, or none of it. For me, there is no choice C. I realize that there are a lot of things that are distasteful and that I don't fully understand. I have hope that when I see Him, I will understand all things. Hope this helps. I cannot fully argue my position. I haven't taught logic, or apologetics yet. LOL, the kids are still young. Ask me again in about 3 years and I will be able to do complex algebra and critical thinking. Remember, HSers only have to be one day ahead of their kids. My oldest is 10. :D

[Greta]

Remember, HSers only have to be one day ahead of their kids. My oldest is 10. :D

 

I know I'm off topic, but just had to say that I loved this! Whew! What a relief! :lol:

[Greta]

So, if I have read the Bible and I do not believe it should be taken as the literal truth, then by your definition I am somehow deficient. Is this a correct interpretation of your belief?

 

I don't mean to speak for her, but I interpreted her as saying that you have to have faith first, and if you do then the Spirit will help you understand the Bible. So, not so much "deficient" as "lacking faith" perhaps?

[specialmama]

So, if I have read the Bible and I do not believe it should be taken as the literal truth, then by your definition I am somehow deficient. Is this a correct interpretation of your belief?

 

Not at all. It is your choice to believe or not, as you see fit. If one wants to believe, and asks God to help with his unbelief, then He will. If one does not want to believe, God will grant that request also. You are no more or less "deficient" than all of mankind and womankind.

Edited April 15, 2009 by specialmama
sorry for the double post, darn computer delay!

[specialmama]

So, if I have read the Bible and I do not believe it should be taken as the literal truth, then by your definition I am somehow deficient. Is this a correct interpretation of your belief?

 

Not at all. It is your choice to believe or not, as you see fit. If one wants to believe, and asks God to help with his unbelief, then He will. If one does not want to believe, God will grant that request also. You are no more or less "deficient" than all of mankind and womankind.

[Ibbygirl]

If you can all stand another one.

 

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and infallible:

 

how did you come to this belief? Was it from reading the Bible itself? The testimony and teaching of others? A personal revelation through prayer?

 

I would very much and sincerely like to understand (to the best of my ability) how someone comes to such an absolute belief about a book.

 

Janet

 

For me, I didn't grow up in church at all. My parents were not spiritual at all and raised us up believing nothing. Three weeks before my 18th birthday I had a supernatural close encounter with Jesus Christ. He literally saved my life as I had been planning to commit suicide that day. A co-worker had been inviting me to go to church with her and I never went but when I was finally at the end of my rope I agreed to go with her. When I got into the church, God was already there waiting for me. I was immediately convicted of my sin just upon walking into the place the Holy Spirit was so strong in there. I literally wanted to run out of the place, but I rationalized that there was no way I could possibly do that so I sat down in the very back and waited for the service to be over. I kept telling myself that I didn't belong there and that this was all a big mistake and I just had to bide my time until it was all over and I could go home. But then the pastor started to speak and somehow actually spoke my whole life story outloud. I know it was for me and for me alone because there were so many private and personal things that he said that he could not possibly have known that were so specific that I soon realized that it was God himself speaking to me. That was very startling and a little scary, but also amazing because then I knew that God was real and that He really existed. He kept saying, "Come to me you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Come. Come. I love you. I want to forgive you. I want to wash you clean. I want to make you white as snow. Come to me." And I said "okay". That was it. I was born again in that moment from the pew where I was sitting. I never said a "sinner's prayer" or went up to an altar, there wasn't even an altar call. My salvation experience was God called me and I said yes to Him. After that I started reading my Bible and as I read it, I heard echoing through the words the same exact voice that called me in that church that day. It was God and it is His word. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I am now 37 years old and I have been walking with God since 1989 and He is the only thing that I am absolutely sure of. He has revealed Himself to me over and over and spoken to me many times over the years and He has loved me like no other ever has and I just thank Him continually for meeting me in that church that day. He saved my life and my soul and set my feet on a new path and I just cannot imagine my life without Him. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for Him. Thank you Lord. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :)

[HRAAB]

For me, I didn't grow up in church at all. My parents were not spiritual at all and raised us up believing nothing. Three weeks before my 18th birthday I had a supernatural close encounter with Jesus Christ. He literally saved my life as I had been planning to commit suicide that day. A co-worker had been inviting me to go to church with her and I never went but when I was finally at the end of my rope I agreed to go with her. When I got into the church, God was already there waiting for me. I was immediately convicted of my sin just upon walking into the place the Holy Spirit was so strong in there. I literally wanted to run out of the place, but I rationalized that there was no way I could possibly do that so I sat down in the very back and waited for the service to be over. I kept telling myself that I didn't belong there and that this was all a big mistake and I just had to bide my time until it was all over and I could go home. But then the pastor started to speak and somehow actually spoke my whole life story outloud. I know it was for me and for me alone because there were so many private and personal things that he said that he could not possibly have known that were so specific that I soon realized that it was God himself speaking to me. That was very startling and a little scary, but also amazing because then I knew that God was real and that He really existed. He kept saying, "Come to me you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Come. Come. I love you. I want to forgive you. I want to wash you clean. I want to make you white as snow. Come to me." And I said "okay". That was it. I was born again in that moment from the pew where I was sitting. I never said a "sinner's prayer" or went up to an altar, there wasn't even an altar call. My salvation experience was God called me and I said yes to Him. After that I started reading my Bible and as I read it, I heard echoing through the words the same exact voice that called me in that church that day. It was God and it is His word. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I am now 37 years old and I have been walking with God since 1989 and He is the only thing that I am absolutely sure of. He has revealed Himself to me over and over and spoken to me many times over the years and He has loved me like no other ever has and I just thank Him continually for meeting me in that church that day. He saved my life and my soul and set my feet on a new path and I just cannot imagine my life without Him. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for Him. Thank you Lord. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :)

 

Thank you for your personal response. I can understand your conversion. For you, your belief in Jesus came first, right? Then reading the Bible later it all fit together?

 

I think maybe that's more of what I'm asking. Did your belief in Jesus Christ come first, or your belief in the Bible as the Word of God?

 

Janet

[clwcain]

I believe all that the Holy Catholic Church teaches to be inerrant and revealed by God.

 

She, as our Holy Mother, provides us with the text and the correct interpretation of the Scripture, along with all thing necessary for Salvation.

[HRAAB]

Janet,

 

For me it was similar to following Lewis' analogy. You know Lord, lunatic or liar. I am not a biblical scholar so don't expect any Bible verses. I have read them at different times even if I cannot remember what or where they are now. It boils down to either I believe all of it, or none of it. For me, there is no choice C. I realize that there are a lot of things that are distasteful and that I don't fully understand. I have hope that when I see Him, I will understand all things. Hope this helps. I cannot fully argue my position. I haven't taught logic, or apologetics yet. LOL, the kids are still young. Ask me again in about 3 years and I will be able to do complex algebra and critical thinking. Remember, HSers only have to be one day ahead of their kids. My oldest is 10. :D

 

I have always liked CS Lewis. I don't always come to the same conclusions as he does, but I have great respect for his intellect. In fact, sometimes I think, "Wow, he was so smart, next to him I'm pretty simple minded, he must be right???" But in the end I have to come to my own conclusion, you know.

 

I have 2 in college, and I still can't do complex algebra. I'm so thankful for tutors.

 

Janet

[Ibbygirl]

Thank you for your personal response. I can understand your conversion. For you, your belief in Jesus came first, right? Then reading the Bible later it all fit together?

 

I think maybe that's more of what I'm asking. Did your belief in Jesus Christ come first, or your belief in the Bible as the Word of God?

 

Janet

 

I believed in Christ first. He revealed Himself to me. When I went home and read the Bible it all made suddenly made sense and I have no doubts whatsoever that it is the Word of God. The more I study the Scriptures the more I am affirmed in that belief. When I became a Christian, I had absolutely no religious backround or beliefs at all. I was a blank slate if you will. But I have absolutely no doubts that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Bible is God's word. No doubts whatsoever.

[Pamela H in Texas]

A few things:

 

First, the scriptures say as much.

 

From there, we look at proof that it backs that up. One thing that sticks out to me is that it has obviously been protected for a VERY long time. It still has it's integrity. When old scrolls and such are found, the integrity of what has been passed down is evident. The truth can be found in ALL of the main translations of the Bible in any language, even those that have a lot of issues.

 

Another major thing is the cohesiveness, consistency of the scriptures despite having so many writers of various backgrounds. The harmony of the scriptures is divine. And those writers had their own issues brought to light also! There is a candor one often can't find with any other text (think how many times we bemoan how biased history texts are based on worldview or who is telling the story!). How we learn from situations like Moses questioning God, even to the point of angering him, for example. And what about David's gross sins but still being unquestionably a beloved servant of the only true God.

 

Another thing is that where the scriptures touch on something of history or science, it has been proven accurate or wise for that time. For example, though certain dietary restrictions aren't necessary now, they made sense at the time. It was a safety due to what is necessary for food prep in order to make those things safe.

 

And then there are the prophesies. We have proof that certain texts were written well before the time the event happened and yet the details are so accurate. These prophesies have happened and continue to be fulfilled. We can trust that they will have their final fulfilliment.

 

Then there is Heb 4:12. Scripture is alive. It WORKS for people. It is absolutely amazing what people can do with it's positive influence. People's lives have been changed, personalities have been overhauled, addictions have been overcome, families have been saved. And people will LIVE because of it. The dead will have a ressurection and a chance at everlasting life.

 

Anyway, so there are a few reasons.

[Pamela H in Texas]

A few things:

 

First, the scriptures say as much.

 

From there, we look at proof that it backs that up. One thing that sticks out to me is that it has obviously been protected for a VERY long time. It still has it's integrity. When old scrolls and such are found, the integrity of what has been passed down is evident. The truth can be found in ALL of the main translations of the Bible in any language, even those that have a lot of issues.

 

Another major thing is the cohesiveness, consistency of the scriptures despite having so many writers of various backgrounds. The harmony of the scriptures is divine. And those writers had their own issues brought to light also! There is a candor one often can't find with any other text (think how many times we bemoan how biased history texts are based on worldview or who is telling the story!). How we learn from situations like Moses questioning God, even to the point of angering him, for example. And what about David's gross sins but still being unquestionably a beloved servant of the only true God.

 

Another thing is that where the scriptures touch on something of history or science, it has been proven accurate or wise for that time. For example, though certain dietary restrictions aren't necessary now, they made sense at the time. It was a safety due to what is necessary for food prep in order to make those things safe.

 

And then there are the prophesies. We have proof that certain texts were written well before the time the event happened and yet the details are so accurate. These prophesies have happened and continue to be fulfilled. We can trust that they will have their final fulfilliment.

 

Then there is Heb 4:12. Scripture is alive. It WORKS for people. It is absolutely amazing what people can do with it's positive influence. People's lives have been changed, personalities have been overhauled, addictions have been overcome, families have been saved. And people will LIVE because of it. The dead will have a ressurection and a chance at everlasting life.

 

Anyway, so there are a few reasons.

[The Girls' Mom]

For me, I spent 30 years NOT believing a word of the Bible. I had read it, been to church, etc. I did not understand it, or how people could have such faith in it.

 

Then God reached into my life, and jerked me right around. I was totally and utterly humbled by some experiences in my own life. I felt an irresistable urge to learn more about God, the Bible and Jesus. I argued with my dh for MONTHS about various 'flaws' I saw. I researched, learned, etc. I read Lewis, Geisler, and McArthur. In the end, this agnostic became a wholehearted Christian. Things I read started to make SO much sense. I'm still learning SO much. I'm a reader, a researcher at heart. I'm DIGGING into the Word. The more I dig, pray, and learn...my faith is strengthened, not weakened.

 

So I agree with a previous poster....unless your heart is open to understanding that the Bible could be the word of God, you will not see the Truth in it. I couldn't see it at ALL until I asked Him to show me. Ironically (or not) there is scripture to back this 'phenomenon' up.

 

1 Corinthians 1:18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.19For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

[lapsetmom]

There are many reasons I believe the Bible to be true.

--Like the above posters, you must have the "eyes of faith" in order to fully understand. There was a time I read it through normal eyes, and then there were the days after becoming a Christian that my eyes were "opened." It makes all the difference. It is like explaining to someone who is blind what the color blue looks like. Or trying to tell someone how to see the hidden picture in one of those optical illusion pictures. When a heart is repentent and open to God, they are able to see. The words of His Spirit have to be interpreted through His Spirit or else we become cynical or legalistic. Believe me, this is different than just being told by a pastor what to believe about it.

--There are many prophecies that have come true in Scripture that are hard to see as coincidence.

--The fact it was not written by one or two people, but many different types of people throughout the centuries, and yet remains cohesive in its nature, is astounding and makes it different from other holy books.

--Like the above poster, the "voice" speaking through Scripture, is the same "voice" that speaks to my heart and guides me. When I have followed this "voice," peace fills my life, things work out in amazing ways, and the Scripture comes alive. True Christianity is not about a book of rules, etc., but it is about a relationship with the God of the Universe. Just like your husband or friend does not lay out everything there is to know about them in a point by point memo, but allows you to get to know them by snippets of what they say and do, God does this too. Scripture is a collection of sayings and stories about how He has been working through Israel and the Church, and through His actions and through the words He has spoken in the past, we get to know Him in a real way. Yet, He has a way of bringing these words to the surface afresh and anew and applying them in a believer's life. And as I grow in my faith in Him as I respond to Him in a step by step obedience, my understanding of Scripture grows.

--I am given confidence in my belief when I hear story upon story of other believers throughout time who have had experiences similar to mine.

--The Bible codes also amaze me and cement my belief.

It is okay to doubt, but what is important is to keep a humble, open heart that is ready to admit sin and need. Being a Christian is not about committing intellectual suicide, it is about humility. A humble heart, will find the intellect expanding and things becoming clearer. A humble heart allows God to act and bring in understanding. God made our intellect; it is a good thing. Unfortunately sin clouds it. Only God, through the sacrifice of Christ, has the ability to overcome the cloud of sin through any open and willing heart.

[mamaof2andtwins]

Similar to the other ladies who have posted, I had a personal experience with Jesus Christ which gave me the power to discern the truths of Scripture.

 

I grew up with a church going father, and he took us to church and Sunday school from the time we were little girls. However, I never saw Jesus for who He really is until I was 29 years old and in my kitchen on one rainy November afternoon.

 

After that I started to read the Bible, and it was as if I had never seen any of it before. My eyes were totally opened to what I was reading. It was a work of His Holy Spirit.

 

Jennie

[coralloyd]

Jesus first.

 

Then the Bible started to really make sense.

 

Then I studied the history, valitity, and how it has stood up against critics, and translating through the ages.

 

Then I started to realize people that said there are contradictions, had not truly studied the Hebrew, Greek, cultural settings, and differnces in literary styles. The fact that different writer may write about the same thing, but choose to mention different things based on their experience, and their purpose in writting, ( Ex. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the same account to different people or for different reasons) yet still fit together so well. It all comes together to give the exact same message (JESUS); in both the Old and New Testament. All this convinced me that although it has many writters, there is only one Author.

 

Any questions that I have had concerning the Bible, have been answered. God is so faithful to answer that questioning heart.

Edited April 15, 2009 by coralloyd

[PiCO]

Not at all. It is your choice to believe or not, as you see fit. If one wants to believe, and asks God to help with his unbelief, then He will. If one does not want to believe, God will grant that request also. You are no more or less "deficient" than all of mankind and womankind.

 

What if you really want to believe, but in your heart it just doesn't seem like divine truth? I really tried to believe when I was in College, more to fit in with everyone else and have some fellowship, but I could not believe in my heart or my brain.

 

I suspect your answer will be that I really didn't want to believe, and God was granting my request. (I don't mean to be disrespectful to you personally, I've just heard similar responses before.)

[Ibbygirl]

What if you really want to believe, but in your heart it just doesn't seem like divine truth? I really tried to believe when I was in College, more to fit in with everyone else and have some fellowship, but I could not believe in my heart or my brain.

 

I suspect your answer will be that I really didn't want to believe, and God was granting my request. (I don't mean to be disrespectful to you personally, I've just heard similar responses before.)

 

 

My advice to you would be to not give up. The Bible says in Jeremiah 29:11-13 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord. Thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."

 

I don't know why people get saved at different points in their lives. Maybe it's just a matter of God revealing Himself when that person is ready to believe and receive Him. I didn't get saved until I was almost 18. My daughter got saved when she was 5. My mother got saved when she was in her 50's. Let me just give you that encouragement not to give up. If you keep seeking with a mind that is open, and you seek with your heart, He will be found by you. He said so. You can take Him at His word. :) I pray that God will richly bless you.

 

Jennifer

[specialmama]

:iagree: with Jennifer.

 

Pam, :grouphug: don't give up. Read the New Testament, meditate on the gospel of John in particular, and read psalms and proverbs... seek to know Him and He will make Himself known! Your life will never be the same! He'll give you purpose in your life, like never before! He'll fill you with peace that passes all understanding! You'll experience JOY so full that you'll wonder how you lived before you knew Him! The new life He gives His own is like living life in black and white, and all of a sudden you see technicolor! It's AWESOME. Please don't give up... humble your heart... admit your sin and your need for a savior... and pray to ask Him to reveal Himself to you... He will!

[HRAAB]

A few things:

 

First, the scriptures say as much.

 

From there, we look at proof that it backs that up. One thing that sticks out to me is that it has obviously been protected for a VERY long time. It still has it's integrity. When old scrolls and such are found, the integrity of what has been passed down is evident. The truth can be found in ALL of the main translations of the Bible in any language, even those that have a lot of issues.

 

 

Thank you for your response.

 

It seems most people come to the Bible with faith in Jesus already in place. I have been curious if anyone did it the other way around. Was agnostic or whatever, started reading the Bible, and through the words in the Bible became convicted that Jesus is the Son of God. I guess in any event, it would be by the leading of the Holy Spirit?

 

I appreciate people sharing their stories with me. It's helpful in many ways while I'm trying to sort things out for myself.

 

Janet

[mamaof2andtwins]

Pam,

 

It happened for me when I told Jesus that I needed Him. I knew that I could not get along apart from Him. I can't really explain how it all happened, but I knew that He was what I needed to heal me from the sin in my life.

 

Jennie

[Nestof3]

If you can all stand another one.

 

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and infallible:

 

how did you come to this belief? Was it from reading the Bible itself? The testimony and teaching of others? A personal revelation through prayer?

 

I would very much and sincerely like to understand (to the best of my ability) how someone comes to such an absolute belief about a book.

 

Janet

 

I don't normally discuss this, because this is something I wonder about a lot, and because the way I see it usually equates to blasphemy to most Christians. Paul states that all scripture is God-breathed, and I believe he was referring to the Old Testament. Jesus approved the law, books of prophets, etc. as well. He even quoted from them. I also believe the gospels are an accurate account of Jesus' words. Prophecies have come true as well.

 

As far as letters to the churches, I do believe they are proper teaching, but I don't personally think Paul was referring to his own letters when he spoke of Scripture. And, I certainly don't see anything divinely purposed about:

 

2 Tim 4:13

When you come bring the cloak which I left at Troas with Carpus, and the books, especially the parchments

 

 

I've also heard teachings on one verse to the point where each word is so dissected that I feel the speaker has gone overboard about the choice of each word rather than the general meaning.

 

I am certain I am not explaining this well.

 

Oh, and I was taught that the Bible was inerrant.

 

Oh, another thing. I also think the truths in the Bible have to be revealed -- not something a person can conjure up within herself.

Edited April 15, 2009 by nestof3

[coralloyd]

Thank you for your response.

 

It seems most people come to the Bible with faith in Jesus already in place. I have been curious if anyone did it the other way around. Was agnostic or whatever, started reading the Bible, and through the words in the Bible became convicted that Jesus is the Son of God. I guess in any event, it would be by the leading of the Holy Spirit?

 

I appreciate people sharing their stories with me. It's helpful in many ways while I'm trying to sort things out for myself.

 

Janet

 

 

Here is a man that did that. Read his books and see what you think:

 

Quote from Amazon- "A Seasoned Journalist Chases Down the Biggest Story in History The Project: Determine if there’s credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God. The Reporter: Lee Strobel, educated at Yale Law School, award-winning former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune—with a background of atheism. The Experts: A dozen scholars, with doctorates from Cambridge, Princeton, Brandeis, and other top-flight institutions, who are recognized authorities on Jesus. The Story: Retracing his own spiritual journey, Strobel cross-examines the experts with tough, point-blank questions: How reliable is the New Testament? Does evidence exist for Jesus outside the Bible? Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual historical event? . . ."

 

A Case For Christ-

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307

 

A Case For Faith-

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Faith-Journalist-Investigates-Christianity/dp/0310234697/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

[Guest janainaz]

I think you have to have a deep desire for truth - a literal hunger and thirst for it. I believe that stirring can only come from God. I believe that there are many people who go down many paths before they find the path of truth and that is ok. I also believe that there are people that can find truth without reading the Bible. While I believe that it is inspired by God, I don't believe that a book is the only place one can find the truth of God. In fact, everything that I KNOW is true about God did not come from me reading it in a book. It came from me living and experiencing my own life and I believe eveyr child of God could be a literal character in the Bible. The Bible only attested to the truths God had ALREADY put in my heart.

 

I think you learn about God through life and the Bible confirms, through words, what is already there. Just my opinion.

[Lovedtodeath]

If you can all stand another one.

 

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and infallible:

 

how did you come to this belief? Was it from reading the Bible itself? The testimony and teaching of others? A personal revelation through prayer?

 

I would very much and sincerely like to understand (to the best of my ability) how someone comes to such an absolute belief about a book.

 

Janet

Well, I was raised this way, and then I came to question that. Maybe it should have been more about faith and trust, but for me it took a lot of studying in order to be convinced. These books were an integral part of that, along with the encyclopedias that they cite.

 

http://www.amazon.com/LIFE-HOW-DID-GET-HERE-EVOLUTION/dp/B0000EE14G

 

Is There a Creator Who Cares About You? (CTE)

 

The Bible: God's Word or Man's?

 

All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial This goes into evidence that either supports or disproves the Bible canon, or in other words, which books are inspired and which are not.

[Marylou]

Thank you for your response.

 

It seems most people come to the Bible with faith in Jesus already in place. I have been curious if anyone did it the other way around.

Janet

 

 

"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:16-17

 

Not just hearing what others say about the message (gospel, Bible), but hearing the message yourself. God will help you if you truly want to understand.

[KidsHappen]

Here is a man that did that. Read his books and see what you think:

 

Quote from Amazon- "A Seasoned Journalist Chases Down the Biggest Story in History The Project: Determine if there’s credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God. The Reporter: Lee Strobel, educated at Yale Law School, award-winning former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune—with a background of atheism. The Experts: A dozen scholars, with doctorates from Cambridge, Princeton, Brandeis, and other top-flight institutions, who are recognized authorities on Jesus. The Story: Retracing his own spiritual journey, Strobel cross-examines the experts with tough, point-blank questions: How reliable is the New Testament? Does evidence exist for Jesus outside the Bible? Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual historical event? . . ."

 

A Case For Christ-

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307

 

A Case For Faith-

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Faith-Journalist-Investigates-Christianity/dp/0310234697/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

 

 

 

I read both of these and found them totally unconvincing. So did this author:

 

Challenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" -

 

http://www.amazon.com/Challenging-Verdict-Cross-Examination-Strobels-Christ/dp/0968925901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239841434&sr=8-1

[dirty ethel rackham]

I believe that the Bible is Truth - God breathed Truth. But I do not believe that God meant for every audience to take every word literally. I do not believe that the Bible is a science book nor a history book as we modern people see history - linear events.

 

As a child, most of my familiarity with the Bible was with the well-known Old Testament stories and the Gospels. It wasn't until I was an adult and going through a faith renewal did I take a closer look at the Bible to study in more detail. I am continually amazed and awed by the truths and applicability for every age. So, for me, it was a renewal in my Catholic faith first, then study/reading/prayer (can't separate them) and then a deeper belief. But then, my belief may not be what you asked about in the first place:).

[PiCO]

:iagree: with Jennifer.

 

Pam, :grouphug: don't give up. Read the New Testament, meditate on the gospel of John in particular, and read psalms and proverbs... seek to know Him and He will make Himself known! Your life will never be the same! He'll give you purpose in your life, like never before! He'll fill you with peace that passes all understanding! You'll experience JOY so full that you'll wonder how you lived before you knew Him! The new life He gives His own is like living life in black and white, and all of a sudden you see technicolor! It's AWESOME. Please don't give up... humble your heart... admit your sin and your need for a savior... and pray to ask Him to reveal Himself to you... He will!

 

Thanks for your advise, but I no longer have any interest in becoming a Christian. I have amazing purpose in my life, as well as peace and joy. My heart is open to whatever is out there, but right now there is nothing calling me to study the bible.

[HRAAB]

Here is a man that did that. Read his books and see what you think:

 

Quote from Amazon- "A Seasoned Journalist Chases Down the Biggest Story in History The Project: Determine if there’s credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God. The Reporter: Lee Strobel, educated at Yale Law School, award-winning former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune—with a background of atheism. The Experts: A dozen scholars, with doctorates from Cambridge, Princeton, Brandeis, and other top-flight institutions, who are recognized authorities on Jesus. The Story: Retracing his own spiritual journey, Strobel cross-examines the experts with tough, point-blank questions: How reliable is the New Testament? Does evidence exist for Jesus outside the Bible? Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual historical event? . . ."

 

A Case For Christ-

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307

 

A Case For Faith-

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Faith-Journalist-Investigates-Christianity/dp/0310234697/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

 

I got A Case for Christ last year from the library; it was the student edition and seemed quite abbreviated. I probably should read the original. I haven't read A Case for Faith yet.

 

Janet

[HRAAB]

 

Oh, another thing. I also think the truths in the Bible have to be revealed -- not something a person can conjure up within herself.

 

How does a person know if what they get from the Bible is revealed or from themselves? There are times I've felt very convicted about something and others when I just walk away shaking my head. How do you know if it's the Holy Spirit leading you?

 

Janet

[Tammy]

that many people who are 'religious'....seem to have had a life altering experience or something....not all....of course....but many. It is as if they 'need' something more to 'explain' things that have happened to them. And....people find religion at very low points in their lives....as if 'needing' a reason to go on in life. That is just my perspective...and I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings....I certainly didn't mean to. I have never been 'led' to read the Bible either....and can't seem to wrap my mind around any of it.

[Nestof3]

How does a person know if what they get from the Bible is revealed or from themselves? There are times I've felt very convicted about something and others when I just walk away shaking my head. How do you know if it's the Holy Spirit leading you?

 

Janet

 

Oops -- that didn't come out right. I meant that faith in Jesus -- the Word in Flesh -- is something that is revealed to a person. When Peter confessed Jesus as the Christ and the Son of God, Jesus told him:

 

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

Your question is indeed a difficult one. I try to check my understanding of a passage with other passages. I have done many word studies in the past to get an understanding of certain concepts. Sometimes I find things I just don't understand, and I choose to focus on living out the things I do understand, trusting that more will be revealed to me as I am faithful with that which I have been entrusted thus far.

 

I have several issues that many people are very firm on but that I am not. I choose not to stress over it, as most of these issues are things which would not affect how I walk anyway. It's more head knowledge stuff. My life goal is to walk in a manner worthy of His calling, not figure everything out.

 

I do also ask that God reveal His truth to me. I tend to be an "err on the side of caution" kind of gal and a person who thinks that when in doubt, God is probably calling me to give up more than my flesh desires to, so that influences my decisions as well.

[Nestof3]

that many people who are 'religious'....seem to have had a life altering experience or something....not all....of course....but many. It is as if they 'need' something more to 'explain' things that have happened to them. And....people find religion at very low points in their lives....as if 'needing' a reason to go on in life. That is just my perspective...and I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings....I certainly didn't mean to. I have never been 'led' to read the Bible either....and can't seem to wrap my mind around any of it.

 

No hurt feelings here. I have never had a need to have life be more than what is on earth, and I did not come to my faith in Jesus because I was at a very low point. I was actually pretty "happy." I remember "hearing" a sort of convicting thought while sitting on my loft bed in college. Essentially, I heard, "You are not living the life I had for you -- the one I died to give you."

[Tammy]

But...weren't you already 'religious' before that thought came to you? Did you believe in God before then?

 

Edit: I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought EVERYONE found religion in the way I described...it just seems those are more of the stories I hear from people.

[Nestof3]

But...weren't you already 'religious' before that thought came to you? Did you believe in God before then?

 

Edit: I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought EVERYONE found religion in the way I described...it just seems those are more of the stories I hear from people.

 

I had been exposed to church, and my Dad said the "blessing" before we ate sometimes. I remember when I was 12, the Sunday school teacher asked if we wanted to accept Jesus. Well, sure -- why not? I remember fighting with my brother afterward and thinking, "well, if I had been born again, why didn't anything change in me?" We stopped going to church soon after that because the friends who invited us moved away, and it was no longer enjoyable for my mom (she liked the people.) Religion was never discussed in our house.

 

I owned a Bible my grandfather gave me which I never read. I took it to college, but I have no idea why. I didn't read it.

 

While in college, I also minored in religion, focusing more on Eastern religions and courses like "Religion and Culture in India."

 

I certainly don't have a need to convince anyone to have the faith conviction I have. I try to live it, and I will speak of it, but I truly believe it is something that has to be revealed by God. I am not into apologetics books or anything that tries to convince a person of the existence or truth of God.

 

I surely don't have all the answers to everything, but I know whom I have believed am persuaded.

 

2 Tim 1:12

I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

BTW -- I am the only one in my family who is, as people put it, so serious about my faith. I shared more of that in another post.

[TXMomof4]

But...weren't you already 'religious' before that thought came to you? Did you believe in God before then?

 

Edit: I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought EVERYONE found religion in the way I described...it just seems those are more of the stories I hear from people.

 

Those life-changing moments make better stories than the "I grew up knowing God and believing in his son and our relationship has grown over the years." I grew up learning bible facts. I could give you all sorts of bible knowledge. But it was head knowledge - just the facts. It wasn't until I was grown and looking for more in my life that the deeper meaning of those facts came out. A person with little life experience has a harder time seeing the parallels between an ancient text and what is happening in their life. Now, though, I read those books and am blown away sometimes by the revelation that what was said more than a thousand years ago applies so directly to my life today.

 

For example - we're studying Esther right now. It is the only book in the bible where the name of God isn't mentioned one time. But seeing his fingerprint so evident on the events of the book is encouraging to me. He doesn't have to work a grand miracle that everyone sees to still be in control of the situation. God put Esther in the right place at the right time and used a pagan king to accomplish His will for his people. So why do I worry about the authority of today. God is as able today as he was during the time of Esther.

 

I don't know the 'how' of that conversion. The NT says in many places that we can plant the seed, but only God can make it grow. And every seed that is planted may not grow. All I can testify to is that His word is very powerful to me. It is a comfort and a joy to spend time with Him.

[Ibbygirl]

Thank you for your response.

 

It seems most people come to the Bible with faith in Jesus already in place. I have been curious if anyone did it the other way around. Was agnostic or whatever, started reading the Bible, and through the words in the Bible became convicted that Jesus is the Son of God. I guess in any event, it would be by the leading of the Holy Spirit?

 

I appreciate people sharing their stories with me. It's helpful in many ways while I'm trying to sort things out for myself.

 

Janet

 

I know a woman who got saved just reading the Bible. I serve with her at church on Wednesdays. Her whole family is Jewish. She was raised Jewish and has been Jewish all her life. She knew the Old Testament and she read the New Testament because she wanted to find out for herself who Jesus was. When she read it, she was convinced that he really is the Jewish Messiah and she put her faith in Him and was born again. It was really difficult for her because when she did, her entire family turned their back on her and disowned her. It was really sad. But to her that is what it cost. She couldn't deny what she knew to be true. She kept on growing in the Lord and now her mom is coming to church with her. God is good! :)

Edited April 16, 2009 by Ibbygirl

[TXMomof4]

If you can all stand another one.

 

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and infallible:

 

how did you come to this belief? Was it from reading the Bible itself? The testimony and teaching of others? A personal revelation through prayer?

 

I would very much and sincerely like to understand (to the best of my ability) how someone comes to such an absolute belief about a book.

 

Janet

 

Our former preacher was amazing at looking at historical proofs for the bible. None of his facts would have convinced me of the inerrancy of the Bible if I didn't already believe, but it is encouraging knowledge when the historical accuracy of the bible is called into question.

This link discusses some of the historical evidences for the bible (disclaimer - this is not associated with my church. Just some of the same info my preacher shared). We have manuscripts of some of the NT within 30 years of Jesus' death. That is really amazing in terms of historical accuracy! We have thousands of manuscripts as opposed to 8 manuscripts of Aristotle's works and they didn't show up til 1400 years after he lived. Do people doubt the authenticity of Aristotle?

 

I just find this sort of history fascinating. Wanted to share.

[Ibbygirl]

that many people who are 'religious'....seem to have had a life altering experience or something....not all....of course....but many. It is as if they 'need' something more to 'explain' things that have happened to them. And....people find religion at very low points in their lives....as if 'needing' a reason to go on in life. That is just my perspective...and I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings....I certainly didn't mean to. I have never been 'led' to read the Bible either....and can't seem to wrap my mind around any of it.

 

 

I know for me I was a very wounded person when I came to faith in God. But that was in 1989. My life radically changed that day and it has never been the same. I still need God desperately in my life, but not for the same reasons. I am no longer in any danger or emotional or psychological pain. On the contrary, my life is filled with great joy, but I just desperately need Him because I don't want to spend one moment without Him. When I first knew Him, He came to me as my Savior and He did save me in a huge way. But now, not only is He my Savior, He has become my very best friend and I just can't wait to meet Him in the morning. I crave His presence, because it is there that I find my joy, my peace, my quiet. It is just sublime and I never want to be out of His presence ever. :)

[HRAAB]

that many people who are 'religious'....seem to have had a life altering experience or something....not all....of course....but many. It is as if they 'need' something more to 'explain' things that have happened to them. And....people find religion at very low points in their lives....as if 'needing' a reason to go on in life. That is just my perspective...and I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings....I certainly didn't mean to. I have never been 'led' to read the Bible either....and can't seem to wrap my mind around any of it.

 

This is interesting. I've almost always been religious, faith was very important to me. For a while I got lazy but somewhere in my 20's I had what I call an inner conversion. Things went along smooth, or so I thought. About 8 years ago it seemed everything was going wrong, death, job loss, mental issues with a family member, a child suffering from depression, and that's when I lost it rather found it again. There had been these little irksome questions in the back of my mind, but up to that point I pretty much ignored them, just kept praying. Well, when life was totally messed up was when I finally opened the door on those questions. I remember distinctly telling God that I had to face these questions head on but I trusted in His mercy. I still pray for His help just in case, but I'm pretty much in the agnostic camp right now about Christianity. So for me it was a low point in my life that was the beginning of my deconstructing faith. I always seem to do things backwards. :confused:

 

I thought I'd share that so you would know I wasn't trying to stir up any trouble. In fact I'll be in church this Sunday because I am raising my children Christian as I promised I would do. Plus, I'm not one to entirely throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

Thanks to all of you for answers to my questions.

 

Janet

[Nestof3]

This is interesting. I've almost always been religious, faith was very important to me. For a while I got lazy but somewhere in my 20's I had what I call an inner conversion. Things went along smooth, or so I thought. About 8 years ago it seemed everything was going wrong, death, job loss, mental issues with a family member, a child suffering from depression, and that's when I lost it rather found it again. There had been these little irksome questions in the back of my mind, but up to that point I pretty much ignored them, just kept praying. Well, when life was totally messed up was when I finally opened the door on those questions. I remember distinctly telling God that I had to face these questions head on but I trusted in His mercy. I still pray for His help just in case, but I'm pretty much in the agnostic camp right now about Christianity. So for me it was a low point in my life that was the beginning of my deconstructing faith. I always seem to do things backwards. :confused:

 

I thought I'd share that so you would know I wasn't trying to stir up any trouble. In fact I'll be in church this Sunday because I am raising my children Christian as I promised I would do. Plus, I'm not one to entirely throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

Thanks to all of you for answers to my questions.

 

Janet

 

Janet,

 

You don't sound backward to me. I will be honest that at my darkest times, my faith grows weak. I have questions about justice, love, mercy. I have times when things just don't make sense to me. Through it all, though, I still have faith as small as a mustard seed, and I find that God remains true. It may sound cliche, but this is just truly what I experience.

 

One of the darkest times in my life followed my marriage. I was suddenly a parent, and I couldn't have done things worse. I was honestly trying so hard, but I failed so many times. This parenting thing put a lot of stress on my marriage. There were times I thought I would lose it completely. I held onto the faith I had. I continued to seek God concerning my new son. I repented, I pressed on, I prayed, I applied His Word, and I can now see where God has been faithful. I seriously trusted Him when I chose to marry John, despite the fact that I wasn't sure I ever wanted children. I can even say that Aaron was part of the reason I married John. Something just really clicked in me that I was needed in his life.

 

I would say that Aaron has shown me how much I have needed the love and forgiveness of Christ more than anything else. I understand what it means when Jesus said, "he that has been forgiven much loves much." I really think our relationship is a miracle -- a huge gift of mercy and grace.

[lapsetmom]

Thanks for your advise, but I no longer have any interest in becoming a Christian. I have amazing purpose in my life, as well as peace and joy. My heart is open to whatever is out there, but right now there is nothing calling me to study the bible.

 

Christianity is not foremost about finding purpose, peace, and joy. It is God's solution to mankind's problem. It is about God responding in love by coming to earth as a man to suffer and die for sin. The sin of loving our own way instead of His perfect way, the sin of seeing God for less than He is, the sin of not being thankful to the One who created us and gives us life and breath, the sin of ignoring His goodness, and hurting those around us with lies, deception, envy, hatred, thievery, adultries, pride, and selfishness. Just as a good and righteous judge does not overlook a criminal who breaks the law, God cannot do so. And yet a good God is merciful and willing to pay our "fine" by dying in our place. The Bible is the only religious book who has the answer to our sin. I hope whoever read this is open to that. You may not believe in God, but you have a conscience--you understand morality. You also understand enough to know you have not always followed your conscience. Therefore, IF there is a God who made you, you are accountable to Him for the life you lived. Other religious books might tell you why you should be good or what rules you should follow, but the Bible actually gives someone the answers to HOW to be made righteous. Christ saves the soul who humbly admits their need and desire to be saved not so much from hell, but from SIN. God is not asking for mental belief in a set of facts but a trust in Christ and his ability to save from sin. God is an amazing God who does not ask anything of us that He will not give us the power to do--including believe. In fact there is a story in Scripture, where a man says to Christ, "I believe, help thou my unbelief!" We just need to be willing to be saved from sin.