The Governess Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 How did you decide which dairy to purchase your milk from? We have joined a co-op of sorts and will be picking up a box of fresh organic veggies weekly (I'm SO excited), and they have given us the option of having raw milk delivered with our order. The milk would be coming from this dairy. I've looked through the site; they post their test results and in the 8 years that they have been operating they have never had a problem with bacteria in their milk, or a case of someone becoming ill from drinking it. The cows are 100% grass fed, the dairy is organic. We would be drinking the milk for the health benefits, but of course the safety of the milk is a concern for me. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girligirlmom Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) How did you decide which dairy to purchase your milk from? We have joined a co-op of sorts and will be picking up a box of fresh organic veggies weekly (I'm SO excited), and they have given us the option of having raw milk delivered with our order. The milk would be coming from this dairy. I've looked through the site; they post their test results and in the 8 years that they have been operating they have never had a problem with bacteria in their milk, or a case of someone becoming ill from drinking it. The cows are 100% grass fed, the dairy is organic. We would be drinking the milk for the health benefits, but of course the safety of the milk is a concern for me. What do you think? If I was in CA, I would prefer Organic Pastures Raw milk over any other unless I know the farmer. The were the first raw milk farmers in CA (well first again in this new era of pasteurization) and I've met them and like them. Read more below: I drink raw milk from Birchwood dairy in PA (since 2006) which is run by a Veterinarian, Dr. Mike Tierney, and his son, Mike Tierney, but if I ever go to CA my #1 choice for a raw milk dairy is Mark McAfee's Organic Pastures. I met Mark and his wife IRL at a talk here in NJ at Rutgers in 2008 hosted by Dr. Joseph Heckman (who I also know IRL). Joe is a professor at Rutgers and speaks regularly for the Weston A Price Foundation http://www.realmilk.com/ and http://www.westonaprice.org/ . Joe drinks raw milk. I actually just went to NYC to see Sally Fallon, president and one of two founders of the Weston A Price Foundation speak last Friday. It was my 3rd time seeing her live and I learn something new and make dietary modifications every time. Anyway Mark and his family are well known and well respected in the raw milk community. He used to be a supplier for Organic Valley but since they pasteurize all of their milk he decided to go 100% raw since the demand was there, about 8 years ago. There was of course a conflict since many who believe pasteurizing is the only way don't understand there are 2 types of raw milk - raw milk designed for pasteurization and the other kind, raw milk for direct human consumption. The entire way that the cows and the farm is run may be quite different in these two scenarios. Mark presented a great Powerpoint and has been speaking around the country trying educate people about raw milk and to help others get their state laws changed so we all can legally purchase raw milk in our own state (kind of like what happened with homeschooling not too long ago). When I emailed Mark to ask for a copy of his Powerpoint, he sent it to me on a CD for no charge. A week later he sent me I love Raw Milk buttons, but for those I paid the shipping since we were supposed to have a local rally in a few days and I wanted the buttons expedited. Of course the rally was postponed. One of the true stories Mark shares is about a Maasai man named Kimeli (from the Maasai tribe in Kenya) who had come to the US to be educated at Stanford as a doctor. While here in the US for about 7 years, this man ate the SAD diet (Standard American) and developed Crohn's disease as well as lactose intolerance. He and Mark met and Mark offered him all the raw milk he could drink for free to see if he could be healed. Kimeli also switched to a diet as close to his indigenous diet back home. He was so happy because he had finally come back to his roots, eating like he did at home, especially finally having access to real unadulterated milk. He was healed in 18 months by drink raw milk and raw milk products from Organic Pastures along with Traditional Foods. Although the gov't has tried to shut Organic Pastures down - along with many other raw milk dairy farmers(this has happened in PA recently with at least 2 farmers), each and every test has come back negative for whatever pathogens they expected. Sometimes the gov't shuts down a dairy on suspicion or simply publicly announces that someone who drank raw milk got sick so they instantly blame the milk. Whenever they have searched for a similar pathogen in the milk or onsite, they have not found it at either Organic Pastures or the two local PA farms. Edited February 28, 2009 by girligirlmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy in Ky Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 How did you decide which dairy to purchase your milk from? We have joined a co-op of sorts and will be picking up a box of fresh organic veggies weekly (I'm SO excited), and they have given us the option of having raw milk delivered with our order. The milk would be coming from this dairy. I've looked through the site; they post their test results and in the 8 years that they have been operating they have never had a problem with bacteria in their milk, or a case of someone becoming ill from drinking it. The cows are 100% grass fed, the dairy is organic. We would be drinking the milk for the health benefits, but of course the safety of the milk is a concern for me. What do you think? I think that this sounds like a fine place for you to get milk. It looks like they are careful, and their track record is safer than eating spinach or peanut butter from the store!:lol: We eat loads of raw dairy from our milk cow. It is wonderful, healthy, and based on statistics, you 2,000 times more likely to get sick from pasteurized milk than from raw. Buy that milk and enjoy!! Blessings, Tracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 We drink raw milk, but only from our own animals. In fact, I only let my family drink raw milk if I, personally, am the person who milked. If the kids have to milk for me, then it goes to the animals. I just don't trust anyone else's sanitation habits. I've visited many raw and organic dairies. There was only one I would consider buying milk from. Honestly, the rest, even the ones owned by my friends were frightening. In Texas, you can only buy raw milk on the farm. I like this requirement because you can really see how clean or not clean the place is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 I think you're badly misguided. Please research the data on the differences in infection level between "organically" raised animals and conventionally raised animals. Despite the claims of organic farmers, their "superior cleanliness" doesn't lower disease rates. In fact, their eschewing of antibiotics raises disease substantially. You can't tell by looking at a cow whether it's infected with a disease that could make a person very ill, no matter what the producers want you to believe. Organic milk contains MORE hormones than conventional milk, simply because conventional approaches sustain milk production at lower levels of hormones through injections. I found that one out when I was seeing if there was any way to lose the milk hormones and keep the milk while trying to get pregnant with DD. Enzymes are not alive. They cannot be "killed" through heating. Even if they could, that scarcely matters because people MAKE their own enzymes at the cellular level. We don't grab enzymes from our food and somehow reprocess them--never mind the fact that cow enzymes and people enzymes are different, anyhow. The breaking down done by the heat is very small compared to the breaking down done by your gut! The only bits of the milk that are alive are the antibodies. (If you're lucky!) These don't help you, either, because they are cow antibodies, not people antibodies. They help cows fight cow diseases. They do nothing for people. If you were a baby calf, it'd be great for you, however! These are the diseases/bacteria that can be passed through raw milk: brucellosis campylobacteriosis listeriosis Salmonella dublin Salmonella typhimurium E. coli Yersiniosis http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/cheesespotlight/cheese_spotlight.htm There are no benefits to raw milk, and there are distinct, if infrequent dangers. And, heck, is costs more and is more inconvenient. There is no good, honest reason to drink raw milk, though there are a lot of people who would like to convince you otherwise. Of course, it has NOTHING to do with the enormous profit margins on raw milk compared to conventional. No, NOTHING at all. I don't think I would consider myself misguided, as no one has been "guiding" me in this decision. Rather, I am doing my own research to determine whether this is a good option for my family. My dh and his brothers were all raised on raw goats milk and I can count on one hand how many times he has been sick during the 10 years that we have been married. His brothers are likewise all incredibly healthy. Not that I'm attributing it all to the raw milk, but I am interested in learning more about the connection and seeing if I notice a difference by adding it to my own diet. I appreciate the links. The CDC website had some good information, and I read the article about the outbreak that occurred in Washington in 2005. That dairy was not licensed; I am curious to know how many of the 33 outbreaks of illness from raw milk products during the last 20 years (according to the CDC) occurred at licensed, certified facilities. Looks like I will need to do a bit more research. As for the nutritional value, I'm curious. I know that cooking changes the nutritional value of many different foods, and so the idea that milk is altered by the cooking process doesn't seem off base to me. I'm going to do some more research on this as well; if I find anything pertinent I will be sure to post some links. If you have any suggestions for further information I would be happy to check them out as well. Thank you for sharing your viewpoint; you seem to have come to your conclusion already but for me, the jury is still out. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyGrace Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) Lovelearnandlive-just like naysayers with homeschooling, you will have the naysayers for the raw milk. You are doing a good job researching it to the best of your ability for your family, and once you make an informed decision, whatever you choose, just ignore the naysayers! Edited February 28, 2009 by HappyGrace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 If I was in CA, I would prefer Organic Pastures Raw milk over any other unless I know the farmer. The were the first raw milk farmers in CA (well first again in this new era of pasteurization) and I've met them and like them. Thanks so much for all of the information about Organic Pastures! It does seem that, if we decide to purchase raw milk, this dairy is probably the best we could hope for. I would love to visit their facilities....I'm sure it would be a very fun field trip for the girls! I think that this sounds like a fine place for you to get milk. It looks like they are careful, and their track record is safer than eating spinach or peanut butter from the store!:lol: We eat loads of raw dairy from our milk cow. It is wonderful, healthy, and based on statistics, you 2,000 times more likely to get sick from pasteurized milk than from raw. Buy that milk and enjoy!! Blessings, Tracy Thanks! And that's a very good point about the spinach and peanut butter! Do you by chance have a link to the statistics you mentioned? I would love to take a look. We drink raw milk, but only from our own animals. In fact, I only let my family drink raw milk if I, personally, am the person who milked. If the kids have to milk for me, then it goes to the animals. I just don't trust anyone else's sanitation habits. I've visited many raw and organic dairies. There was only one I would consider buying milk from. Honestly, the rest, even the ones owned by my friends were frightening. In Texas, you can only buy raw milk on the farm. I like this requirement because you can really see how clean or not clean the place is. I wish we had the option here of having our own cow or goat. *sigh* Maybe someday. :iagree: You are blessed to be able to buy from Organic Pastures-they are well known and well run. Girligirl mom said it well. We drink raw from a local farmer. I am completely trusting of the farmer and her sanitation practices. Since starting raw milk last spring, not one person in our family has been sick, and dh's cholesterol (he had a previous heart attack) has gone down markedly. I did a lot of research on raw milk and I'm a big believer in it. That's so great that you have seen some health benefits! Thank you for sharing. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Lovelearnandlive-just like naysayers with homeschooling, you will have the naysayers for the raw milk. You are doing a good job researching it to the best of your ability for your family, and once you make an informed decision, whatever you choose, just ignore the naysayers! Thanks for the encouragement! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 I found this letter written by the owner of the dairy in my state. It sounds like, at least in California, raw milk has a pretty good safety record. I'm still doing some research, but it does sound like this dairy is doing something right. The information he gives about the natural bacterial present in the raw milk inhibiting the growth of and even killing pathogens introduced into milk samples is very intriguing: "To study this issue further, Organic Pastures contracted with BSK labs in Fresno to perform multiple challenge and recovery tests on our raw milk and raw colostrum. When 7 logs (10 million counts) of pathogens were added to one-milliliter samples of organic raw milk they would not grow. In fact they died off. The salmonella was so badly out-competed that it could not be found less than 24 hours later. The listeria drop was less dramatic and was similiar to the E. Coli O157:H7 samples that were studied, but they also did not grow and declined substantially over time. The lab concluded: “. . . organic raw milk and colostrum do not appear to support the growth of pathogens. . .†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy in Ky Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks! And that's a very good point about the spinach and peanut butter! Do you by chance have a link to the statistics you mentioned? I would love to take a look. Yes, I do have a link. It is bookmarked on my laptop--I'll try to get that posted tomorrow for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I have had raw milk from "Organic Pastures" as well and liked it - and nobody got ill. I don't even know of another company that offers raw milk in CA. Organic Valley does not offer it. I have purchased some of their other dairy products and wish they would offer raw milk as well. Price is a big factor for me right now - so I stay with pasteurized (but not ultra-pasteurized) Organic Valley for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 ...some of us like our milk as nature intended it. Humans drinking cows' milk is as nature intended it? Sorry, I couldn't resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Humans drinking cows' milk is as nature intended it? Sorry, I couldn't resist. Humans have drunk cow's (and goat's and sheep's and horse's) milk since these animals were domesticated. It's no less of what "nature" intended than eating the meat of a dead cow. (Which I do. With relish. And ketchup.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I think when Karen said, "as nature intended", she was specifically referring to drinking milk raw, as opposed to processed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momofkhm Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 you do prefer to engage on the subject. Can I raise my hand and say that I want accurate information? Pretty please with sugar on top! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Can I raise my hand and say that I want accurate information? Pretty please with sugar on top! :iagree:I'm raising my hand over here too. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Humans drinking cows' milk is as nature intended it? Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was thinking the same thing!:lol: However, I hate drinking milk. I do like yogurt, cheese, ice cream.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Raw Milk drinker here. I would go for what is local and convenient and financially viable for your family, personally. I like that I know the husband and wife I buy the milk from. I haven't visited the farm- they personally deliver to the city. But I could. I LOVE raw milk. I didn't drink milk much before I started getting raw milk. Yum. I am going to get a glass right now. I also make kefir every day now. And I have to admit that I am on these boards less often than I used to be because I have developed a passion for fermenting foods, and am hanging out in different places onine nowadays :). In the last few weeks I have made lots of raw milk kefir, just made my 2nd batch of water kefir,some kefir cream cheese, lots of real ginger beer (to die for!), two different sauerkrauts, several ferments grape drinks (not supposed to be alcoholic but mabe jsut a tad :)), and an apple cider. I want to learn to make raw cheese, and raw kefir butter. All this started when I got into raw milk and got my kefir grains. My family now call me a witch because the kitchen is full of bottles of things in various stages of ferment. They are like my babies. So. Enjoy your milk :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 (edited) Can I raise my hand and say that I want accurate information? Pretty please with sugar on top! here is a website to get you going: http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/ Truly, I don't know how the human race survived so long before we killed all the horrible bacteria in everything. :rolleyes: Edited March 4, 2009 by WTM Moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Not Colleen, but here is a website to get you going: http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/ Truly, I don't know how the human race survived so long before we killed all the horrible bacteria in everything. :rolleyes: Yes, I always wonder that, too. After all, what do you get when you sterilize a substance, denature the natural enzymes and leave a nice, thick, nutrient rich product behind? Oh, yes, that's right. A Petri dish. Yum. And that goes for essentially sterilizing growing fields, too. When the natural soil microbes are destroyed, then the whole thing is fertilized, you end up with a multi-acre petri dish that gets completely colonized by whatever happens in (which, is of course, sometimes pathogenic). And then people act surprised when their spinach kills them. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girligirlmom Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Here is a link to an article on the Real Milk.com site that explains the history of pasteurization of Raw Milk. http://www.realmilk.com/untoldstory_1.html If you skim it fast it might not make as much sense as if you read it slowly. I've read it more than once and it's what has helped me to understand what Mark McAfee means when he says there are two types of raw milk. Be aware that realmilk.com is run by Weston A Price so it is clearly biased for raw milk as am I. Sometimes though it helps to understand history when you want to change things. You may find a "Why Pasteurize?" history on a government site easily, so here is the other perspective. This article explains Why did pasteurization start? Why was it needed in some cases when for hundreds or thousands of years before it was not done? How did it help? I just read it to my 10 year old and he asked many of the same questions I did. Why didn't they just clean up all the dairy farms and require certification of all of them, instead of creating/allowing two types of milk, certified milk that safe if consumed raw, and unclean milk that required pasteurization. Clearly pasteurization helped but was it necessary or was there are better way to save lives? I think if they cleaned up the milk and the source of the feed, and didn't allow milk from sick cows that would have saved lives. Do I (or you) really want to drink milk from a cow that has tuberculosis or any other disease just because that milk was boiled? Does that make it safe? Does that make it healthy? Clearly I understand that pasteurized milk today is different than pasteurized milk back then, but how much different? Other questions I have asked since I learned about raw milk in 2006: If cows have 4 stomachs are supposed to eat grass and other vegetation, why are many in this country in confinement dairies still and why are they fed soy, corn, and other grains instead of or in addition to being grassfed? How much of their diet is vegetation vs. grain? Is this only in the winter or all year? How come they all do not go out in the sunshine? More importantly: How can I find out if the milk I am drinking and feeding my children from the local supermarket comes from a cow that eats her vegetables and gets out in the sunshine? Is this why milk must have Vitamins A and D added, since the cows don't eat enough green vegetation nor get enough sunshine? The interesting thing is that Coit was from NJ and the laws that came from were founded in NJ but you can't buy raw milk in NJ in 2009. Strauss was from NYC and raw milk can be purchased in NY. I do not believe that all raw milk is safe for human consumption. I would not want to drink raw milk from many of our nation's dairies. I do drink raw milk from a certified supplier, but I also drink raw milk from a few Amish farmers since I know the farmers and I trust their operation as do many other WAPF members. Here is the personal testimony of an 83 year old man's experience and his description of the history of raw milk: http://www.realmilk.com/crime-against-raw-milk.html The timing in this article picks up in the timeline where the other one leaves off. Edited March 4, 2009 by girligirlmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I would just talk to the farmer and ask how the cows are cared for, how they are treated if sick, if they are tested, and how they clean the bottles (if glass). If you get a chance to visit the farm, even better. I've gotten raw milk from a couple of different farms, but never had a chance to visit them. When we moved, and started with a different farm, I just made sure to drink some first before giving it my kids until I felt comfortable. Welcome to the wonderful world of raw milk! My whole family (even dh who was fiercely skeptical) turns their nose up to regular store bought milk now, they say it's too thin, like water. They love the yummy creaminess of fresh milk.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Thanks again, everyone, for all of the information you've shared with me! I think I'm going to try a half gallon and see if we like it. :D I especially like knowing that the milk is "clean" enough to drink as is, without going through any special treatment, and that the cows are 100% grass fed. I'll let you know how it goes. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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